Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Bites Apple, Apple Bites Back
hype7 writes "The NYT (free reg reqd etc) is running an interesting article on where MS seems to be getting all the ideas for its next big OS release, Longhorn. It's only a quickie, but they look at MS's big news from WinHEC, and their possible sources for inspiration. They also pull out that fantastic Bill Gates quote: 'The one thing Apple's providing now is leadership in colors'; and that Apple execs are now having a laugh of their own over how Longhorn, 'Microsoft's 2005 version of its Windows operating system, apes features that have been in Apple's OS X operating system since 2001.'"
I recall, years back, an avi making the rounds with Bill Gates speaking (at a MacWorld?) and sheepishly admitting that the Mac was the best or had the best desktop or something along those lines. As if Win95 didn't cement clearly the view that Microsoft indeed was impressed with, at least the look and feel, we get more of this, "Gee, Apple is visionary, so we'll just copy what they do", from the big innovator. Well, no surprise, but I do wonder whether there's an agreement where Microsoft pays Apple for some of this, or is it just payment 'in-kind' (meaning Microsoft products which run on Macs)?
"As a matter of fact we do have a Research and Development department, we call it, 'Apple Computer, Inc.'"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Apple copies Microsoft, and Microsoft copies Apple.
Apple coppied the WinXP feature that lets users switch who's logged in without losing state. And Microsoft copies features from Apple. Its the Kettle calling the Pot black...
The same company that didn't offer a preemptive, protected multitasking OS until OS X, years and years after Microsoft had Windows NT?
Competition makes the product better. MS learns, they are not stupid. They are stealing from Linux, they are stealing from Apple, Linux is stealing from both, etc.
:)
Feed on each other to make a stronger whole
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Seriously, this 'article' is the journalistic equivalent of the Sci-Fi channel bumpers and the only reason I can see for Slashdot to post it is to start another anti-MS feeding frenzy.
Do different companies in the same industry steal ideas from each other? Yes. Is it news? Not unless they get caught doing it before the other fella, i.e. industrial spying.
Not only has Apple been selling cinema-style flat panel displays for several years, but last year it filed patent application 20030002246, titled "active enclosure for computing device," ...
Help, I'm conflicted.
Considering this is all that linux distros have been doing for the past several years, how is this news? It seems that this same idea gets rehashed every so often. Yes, I'm not happy that lil' BG turned on Apple, but what do you expect Microsoft to do...
Microsoft Employee: Look, Apple just added X feature to OS X!
Bill Gates: Well rats. Since they beat us to the punch, we should just voluntarially not add the feature for the next five to ten years as if they had a patent on it or something.
Microsoft Employee: Good idea sir!
No way - as soon as one company adds some service or markets an idea, other companies can start using it as well. Apple's and Linux's big problem isn't microsoft stealing little features and design attributes, it's that people don't realize that both are very stable and allow you to do almost the exact same thing as a PC running windows. If that myth ever goes away, then there's a legitimate chance that users will start to move over at a noticeable rate to alternative platforms for the desktop.
Matt Fahrenbacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Honestly, you'd think the Internet would have spread information to the four corners of the Earth, but all it does it perpetuate the myths.
--- Ban humanity.
That article was short and uninformative. The only "innovative" feature clearly alleged stolen is the particular aspect ratio of the screen, which 1) who cares and 2) isn't an "idea", just a design choice.
That computer looks like an iMac using a painted Commodore 64 keyboard and 2 little arms stuck on the sides. Couldn't they integrate the camera into the screen a little better? And what is that thing hanging off the left side? And why on Earth would it be there? Couldn't that be under the keyboard somewhere?
I know it's a prototype, but isn't this the stage where you make it beautiful - because it doesn't have to work well yet?
This is why MS gets accused of copying more often than anyone else. It's a second class rip off. When you steal from something, you should be able to look at the original and improve upon it. This is just playing catch up.
Heck, it reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon where an "InstalSHIELD" type program displays the message "Install Wizard is now placing orders for products you will probably need... Found your credit card number..."
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
Uuummm.... fear of microphones?
Fear of germs?
Fear of tiny gay men?
--- Ban humanity.
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
Yeah, after they check out Apple's latest OSX version "Panther" in July :)
They only need a few months to emulate what they see there, right?!
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
Am I the only one who remembers the "Look and Feel" lawsuit Apple lost after MS first released Windows? MS already knows they can steal anything they like without any significant retribution from either the government or other corporations, which is exactly what they do. The only real innovation coming from Redmond is new and better ways to take other people's technology, add it to their own, then put the original creators out of business.
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
I mean, sure, we can go back and forth with the same old MS vs Apple BS... but there is something new and humorous to point out here:
Did anybody notice the desktop image used in the promo photo of the MS/HP Athens (top right of atricle page)? It's as if MS said: "you're damned right we're copying Apple. Fuck them! We'll copy their default desktop image, too, pompous bastards that they are!"
The underlying issue is that people feel that somehow 'their' particular technological provider is the sole benefactor of whatever un-patent-worthy trend in the industry is going on. We should be glad that this isn't the case, but due to 'interface addiction' we see innovation spreading as somehow threatening. All it theatens is the ability to feel superior.
What, do you think iTunes is visionary? How about the idea of a 'digital media hub'? These are ancient news in the computing world and the fact that one company got to market a year before the other says more about scheduling than it does about innovation.
The absolute worst is people who think Microsoft making their UI more 'soft' was a direct response to OS X. These UI changes don't get dreamed up at the last minute -- they're part of an evolution that takes years.
I will admit there are some times when it's pretty blatant that a company's idea is stolen.
Computer manufacturers noticed apple's sales take off when they went for a more stylish look. Yes, they're copying. It's called capitalism and it's what raises the bar for everyone. What, do you think apple came up the idea of making something they're selling look good?
It's no different from JC Penny selling some fashion that the GAP came up with. Thanks for the idea, say hello to the free market. We as consumers win, the innovator gets first-to-market advantage. But that's ALL they get.
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
That Microsoft HP computer doesnt look at all good or pratical. It reminds me of a dentist chair. If microsoft is pushing towards Home intertainment they need to produce something that looks good in homes. That is where Apple Excells. People can argue about Tech Specs untill they are blue in the face and it will never end. I am at the opinion PC and Macs technically are about equal and a couple Seconds here and there dosent bother me. But apple products have a practical and formfull design to their products. That actually look good in a home or office. And sometimes that is actually more important. If an i-Mac makes your office seem more high tech and clean then it could help make a potentional customers (The ones that pay the cash and often arnt to technical) because your office seems to be organized and modern. And at home a lot of people dont like having Big Off White or Black boxes in their rooms because they seem to be an indrustral design in a non industral room. Most of us dont really care how a computer will look with your room but for others it is more of a consern and the tech specs dont matter that much if they both can get the job in a resionable amount of time.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Surely there are adacemic researchers out there probing the frontier of human-computer interaction that could use Linux as the basis for their work? Could it be that X is slowing us down somehow? I mean, think of how much fuss there was over minor and superficial enhancements antialiased fonts and transparent windows. Where are the big ideas?
The Open Source community has demonstrated that it can play catch-up and play it well, but when are we going to see Windows and Apple stealing important UI features from Linux?
OSX is a dream OS ..
.. play Warcraft3 .. run Adobe Photoshop .. and use Cron .. all on the same machine in the same OS -natively- without dualbooting .. and you can actually watch fullmotion video (ie DVD's) behind a transparent terminal window thanks to a true OpenGL rendered desktop.
..
I can compile GNU fileutils
Apple has done in a few years what many in the Linux community have been trying to do for ages
Really... Windows 2005 will have things that have been in MacOSX since 2001, huh?
Windows 95 copied things that had been in MacOS since... 1986 or so?
The way I count things, MS is getting better, right? They went from 9 years behind to 4 years behind, in only 10 years.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
"Time for Tubby Bye-bye"!
Do you know who they both steal from? BSD.
Stealing from a dead man is called scavenging.
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
While OSX does enjoy several advantages over OS/2, I am not convinced that it's going to be enough to buy Apple any long-term gain. I suspect that any move Microsoft makes against the Open Source community will also be very dangerous to Apple. At the very least, Apple is going to have to remain vigilant if they are to avoid any potential dirty tricks.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I remember when IBM announced their first personal computer. Of course, Apple said something like "Welcome. Serioiusly."
Then Apple got it's head kicked in.
In our world, quality does NOT sell computers. This new Microsoft machine doesn't have to be nearly as good as a Macintosh to be good enough for people who don't know any better. That principal, already, has been proven.
Thankfully, there is one important difference between those days and today: Apple is working its arse off and not just talking shit.
Apple is definitely pushing the industry -- that has always been its charter. Let us all hope that they don't forget all the obligations that role entails.
--Richard
From the summary: "...'The one thing Apple's providing now is leadership in colors'..."
And this is the *best* thing MS can copy? Whatever happened to increasing security? Opening standards? Interoperability? Customer support? Fixing bugs?
Nope...gotta get them colours right...
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
Oh, and BTW, Apple has a definite point here. The difference is that Apple took an unfriendly OS and turned it into a consumer product.
Microsoft now announces:
The arrival of the nExT generation desktop! This desktop will include all-new technology, such as scalable icons and a specialized bar at the bottom that we like to call "the port." You can now land programs in the port, and ship programs from the port.
At the windows developers meeting, we will be unvailing the UCAPI, or universal component API. This API will be a C++/C# centric API, where MS nExT developers can place descendant classes of current coponents in a directory, and they will be automatically "turned on" for use in all programs that used the original component! Imagine the possibilities, such as a multi-threaded spell-checking text box!
We at MS are very excited to be the frontrunners in this brand-new nExT-generation technology!
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Let me see --
.
...
Windows (19)95 was a brand new operating system concept never conceived before -- with the exception of Macintosh OS (1988)
iWin (2004) is a brand new computer concept never conceived before -- with the exception of iMac (1997) then iMac FP
Reverse engineering is the sincerest form of flattery. Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery. Copyright violation is the sincerest form of flattery. -- M$ ripping you off is the sincerest form of flattery.
Run, Apple, run!
This is reminiscent of Sony. Sony was only 15% of the consumer electronics market (compared to National/Panasonic), so Sony had to innovate or die. As Sony innovated, others would take Sony's ideas, reverse engineer them, modify them, and create competing products. [Revive Beta versus VHS argument, here] For example, Sony developed and sold the only digital camera with memory card and modem in the early 80s. It did not catch on and Sony was about to cancel the product line when a reporter took pictures of an aircraft crash, sent them to his editor, and his newspaper scooped everyone with pictures. Now, few remember the original Sony digital camera with stick and modem and how Sony helped lead the digital revolution
Sony leads, others follow.
Apple innovates, M$ assimilates
Its NOT about churning out a first rate product. First rate products are hard to build take time and don't make you very rich very quickly.
GM, Ford and AMC don't churn out great cars. No Lamborghini's, no Roll's Royces, not even a Beamer. But they churn out a lot of crappy ones and make some money on each one.
Its all about the Benjamins. M$ would churn out Goethes, Bachs, Rembrants and Piranene's if anybody figured out a way to make a buck doing that.
But that's not likely is it? So you get "wanna-be" "rip-off" crap that doesn't work well, look good or last long because there's more money in churning crap.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Surely there are adacemic researchers out there probing the frontier of human-computer interaction that could use Linux as the basis for their work? Could it be that X is slowing us down somehow?
No, it's not X. I've done some HCI work, including some very early contributions to Gnome. It is almost never the technology that slows you down in this area, it's almost always people's mindset.
One thing that's been really damaging Linux in this regard is the load of people who believe that Linux absolutely has to copy windows. Very obviously, innovation and copycat behaviour don't work well together.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Even the background image on the Athens PC looks vaguely like the default OS X background image.
I'm also amused that no one seems to have noticed that while none of the individual ideas MS is pushing are wildly new, the level integration of basic work tasks will be very impressive if it works as hyped...
Clear, Dark Skies
Consider:
Would anyone be surprised if Longhorn turns out to be BETTER than OS X?
Would anyone be shocked if, alternatively, by 2005, OS X had progressed to a further point than Longhorn then?
And which of you would switch just because of that? As for me, I'm sticking to the Mac anyway.
"... I don't think." -- Bill Gates
Exacly what features of the Nextstep does win95 offer? "windowblinds"? Sure, if you download a serious modification. 95 shipped with the clumsy three button junk from win3.1 plus an extra button and a pannel. A root menue anywhere on the screen? Nope. The way it resizes windows? Nope. Menues that you can leave up on the screen? Nope. Can you name one feature that is not simply part of any GUI? I'm not going to go into the tremendous difference in the unerlying systems but just look at the apearances alone.
Nextstep was made from MacOS and was better. Windoze never did much more than follow along the GUI path, never evolving much from the first one they made. The evolution and lines of influence are clear when you look at screen shots from each.
For those of you not familiar with Next, check out this 1993 screen shot of the first web browser. The client was developed in 1990. There are many free implementations of the Nextstep such as Window Maker today. It still kicks any GUI Microsoft has ever made. After using a reasonable window manager on X, few people can go back to the M$ GUI confines.
For those of you fortunate enough to have missed Windoze 3.1, here is a little screen shot from 1993 or so when Netscape became one of the first available browsers for Windoze. 95 added the X button on the top right, so I suppose you could say it coppied Nextstep in one way. Here is a typical Win95/98 desktop. Windoze XP (screen shot to compare), is more of the same and annoying as all hell.
Please don't compare reasonable software, such as Nextstep or Sun's Common Desktop Environemnt, to junk from Microsoft. People might get the idea that one was better than it is or that the other sucks in ways it never did.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Typical MS tactic. Whenever customers start looking some other way there comes the " Look! In 2 years time we'll do the moon!" mantra. It's called vapourware. As far as I'm concerned all Longhorn is about is a fat sidebar and some custom HTML pages embedded in some IE dll. Something Konqueror could do (and in some way already does) consistently if a vendor decided to inject some effort in it. Ah, of course gnome nautilus is just as good too. There's simply nothing MS will do in 2 years that can distract me from next month's (1 month, 1) presentation of Os X 10.3
In 2 years time I can't even think what unix desktops will have archieved...
Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
From an MS press release:
Apple demanded $1.2 billion from Microsoft for alleged patent infringements...
The negotiations that resulted led to a strategic agreement between the two companies in August 1997, one part of which called for Microsoft to invest $150 million in Apple and for Apple to install Microsoft's Internet Explorer as the default Web browser for its customers... As part of his videotaped deposition, however, Microsoft Chairman and CEO Bill Gates testified repeatedly that his primary goal was to resolve the patent issues with Apple and obtain a patent cross license.