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Microsoft Bites Apple, Apple Bites Back
hype7 writes "The NYT (free reg reqd etc) is running an interesting article on where MS seems to be getting all the ideas for its next big OS release, Longhorn. It's only a quickie, but they look at MS's big news from WinHEC, and their possible sources for inspiration. They also pull out that fantastic Bill Gates quote: 'The one thing Apple's providing now is leadership in colors'; and that Apple execs are now having a laugh of their own over how Longhorn, 'Microsoft's 2005 version of its Windows operating system, apes features that have been in Apple's OS X operating system since 2001.'"
I recall, years back, an avi making the rounds with Bill Gates speaking (at a MacWorld?) and sheepishly admitting that the Mac was the best or had the best desktop or something along those lines. As if Win95 didn't cement clearly the view that Microsoft indeed was impressed with, at least the look and feel, we get more of this, "Gee, Apple is visionary, so we'll just copy what they do", from the big innovator. Well, no surprise, but I do wonder whether there's an agreement where Microsoft pays Apple for some of this, or is it just payment 'in-kind' (meaning Microsoft products which run on Macs)?
"As a matter of fact we do have a Research and Development department, we call it, 'Apple Computer, Inc.'"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Apple copies Microsoft, and Microsoft copies Apple.
Apple coppied the WinXP feature that lets users switch who's logged in without losing state. And Microsoft copies features from Apple. Its the Kettle calling the Pot black...
Used to be Apple had a great GUI since the early 1980's when Microsoft came out with Windows 3.1. around 1990.
The same company that didn't offer a preemptive, protected multitasking OS until OS X, years and years after Microsoft had Windows NT?
Competition makes the product better. MS learns, they are not stupid. They are stealing from Linux, they are stealing from Apple, Linux is stealing from both, etc.
:)
Feed on each other to make a stronger whole
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Seriously, this 'article' is the journalistic equivalent of the Sci-Fi channel bumpers and the only reason I can see for Slashdot to post it is to start another anti-MS feeding frenzy.
Do different companies in the same industry steal ideas from each other? Yes. Is it news? Not unless they get caught doing it before the other fella, i.e. industrial spying.
Not only has Apple been selling cinema-style flat panel displays for several years, but last year it filed patent application 20030002246, titled "active enclosure for computing device," ...
Help, I'm conflicted.
Considering this is all that linux distros have been doing for the past several years, how is this news? It seems that this same idea gets rehashed every so often. Yes, I'm not happy that lil' BG turned on Apple, but what do you expect Microsoft to do...
Microsoft Employee: Look, Apple just added X feature to OS X!
Bill Gates: Well rats. Since they beat us to the punch, we should just voluntarially not add the feature for the next five to ten years as if they had a patent on it or something.
Microsoft Employee: Good idea sir!
No way - as soon as one company adds some service or markets an idea, other companies can start using it as well. Apple's and Linux's big problem isn't microsoft stealing little features and design attributes, it's that people don't realize that both are very stable and allow you to do almost the exact same thing as a PC running windows. If that myth ever goes away, then there's a legitimate chance that users will start to move over at a noticeable rate to alternative platforms for the desktop.
Matt Fahrenbacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Honestly, you'd think the Internet would have spread information to the four corners of the Earth, but all it does it perpetuate the myths.
--- Ban humanity.
Leave it to Microsoft and HP to turn the sleek "I want it" of an Apple into something that looks like a cheap rip-off for a kids toy company. If that's the best they can do in the design, they need to get out and get some fresh ideas.
That article was short and uninformative. The only "innovative" feature clearly alleged stolen is the particular aspect ratio of the screen, which 1) who cares and 2) isn't an "idea", just a design choice.
That computer looks like an iMac using a painted Commodore 64 keyboard and 2 little arms stuck on the sides. Couldn't they integrate the camera into the screen a little better? And what is that thing hanging off the left side? And why on Earth would it be there? Couldn't that be under the keyboard somewhere?
I know it's a prototype, but isn't this the stage where you make it beautiful - because it doesn't have to work well yet?
This is why MS gets accused of copying more often than anyone else. It's a second class rip off. When you steal from something, you should be able to look at the original and improve upon it. This is just playing catch up.
Heck, it reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon where an "InstalSHIELD" type program displays the message "Install Wizard is now placing orders for products you will probably need... Found your credit card number..."
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
Uuummm.... fear of microphones?
Fear of germs?
Fear of tiny gay men?
--- Ban humanity.
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
Yeah, after they check out Apple's latest OSX version "Panther" in July :)
They only need a few months to emulate what they see there, right?!
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
I have good frieds at M$. This is no trade secret, but MAC OS X is not the only place they are getting ideas. Just about every person on know as M$ (about 10) has some linux distro running at home or in a VM. I am sure we can all find features in linux that the new Windows will have.
Seriously, they should just port all their stuff to linux and built a Windows GUI to replace X (I have nothing against X, that would just be a good strategy for M$. Or, they can keep making all the friggin money they are making now).
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
Am I the only one who remembers the "Look and Feel" lawsuit Apple lost after MS first released Windows? MS already knows they can steal anything they like without any significant retribution from either the government or other corporations, which is exactly what they do. The only real innovation coming from Redmond is new and better ways to take other people's technology, add it to their own, then put the original creators out of business.
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
I mean, sure, we can go back and forth with the same old MS vs Apple BS... but there is something new and humorous to point out here:
Did anybody notice the desktop image used in the promo photo of the MS/HP Athens (top right of atricle page)? It's as if MS said: "you're damned right we're copying Apple. Fuck them! We'll copy their default desktop image, too, pompous bastards that they are!"
Still, XP does boot and shut down fast. That's something worth paying for and I wish Apple would follow.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
The underlying issue is that people feel that somehow 'their' particular technological provider is the sole benefactor of whatever un-patent-worthy trend in the industry is going on. We should be glad that this isn't the case, but due to 'interface addiction' we see innovation spreading as somehow threatening. All it theatens is the ability to feel superior.
What, do you think iTunes is visionary? How about the idea of a 'digital media hub'? These are ancient news in the computing world and the fact that one company got to market a year before the other says more about scheduling than it does about innovation.
The absolute worst is people who think Microsoft making their UI more 'soft' was a direct response to OS X. These UI changes don't get dreamed up at the last minute -- they're part of an evolution that takes years.
I will admit there are some times when it's pretty blatant that a company's idea is stolen.
Computer manufacturers noticed apple's sales take off when they went for a more stylish look. Yes, they're copying. It's called capitalism and it's what raises the bar for everyone. What, do you think apple came up the idea of making something they're selling look good?
It's no different from JC Penny selling some fashion that the GAP came up with. Thanks for the idea, say hello to the free market. We as consumers win, the innovator gets first-to-market advantage. But that's ALL they get.
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
That Microsoft HP computer doesnt look at all good or pratical. It reminds me of a dentist chair. If microsoft is pushing towards Home intertainment they need to produce something that looks good in homes. That is where Apple Excells. People can argue about Tech Specs untill they are blue in the face and it will never end. I am at the opinion PC and Macs technically are about equal and a couple Seconds here and there dosent bother me. But apple products have a practical and formfull design to their products. That actually look good in a home or office. And sometimes that is actually more important. If an i-Mac makes your office seem more high tech and clean then it could help make a potentional customers (The ones that pay the cash and often arnt to technical) because your office seems to be organized and modern. And at home a lot of people dont like having Big Off White or Black boxes in their rooms because they seem to be an indrustral design in a non industral room. Most of us dont really care how a computer will look with your room but for others it is more of a consern and the tech specs dont matter that much if they both can get the job in a resionable amount of time.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I can't remember how many linux flavors are trying to look just like ms, run ms software, blaa blaa blaa. You anti ms people need a life.
Sure MS steals from Apple and vice versa.... So whats the big deal with computers this is already done in the automotive business everyday. If one car maker has a new feature and the public likes it, then all the car makers get the feature. Its that simple. In the end features are driven by the consumers, not the companies. If companies could just keep shipping last years products and make a profit, they would (and some do). So quit with the eternal bitching and moaning regarding whose stealing what innovation. M$ is evil for lots of reasons but this is really not an evil act in and of itself. Windows is, in and of itself.
. I love the sound of burning women and screaming rubber....
Surely there are adacemic researchers out there probing the frontier of human-computer interaction that could use Linux as the basis for their work? Could it be that X is slowing us down somehow? I mean, think of how much fuss there was over minor and superficial enhancements antialiased fonts and transparent windows. Where are the big ideas?
The Open Source community has demonstrated that it can play catch-up and play it well, but when are we going to see Windows and Apple stealing important UI features from Linux?
OSX is a dream OS ..
.. play Warcraft3 .. run Adobe Photoshop .. and use Cron .. all on the same machine in the same OS -natively- without dualbooting .. and you can actually watch fullmotion video (ie DVD's) behind a transparent terminal window thanks to a true OpenGL rendered desktop.
..
I can compile GNU fileutils
Apple has done in a few years what many in the Linux community have been trying to do for ages
Do you know who they both steal from? BSD.
Curious. How do you "steal" from BSD when the very license permits you to use the code in any way you see fit?
I guess if maybe they're not including the copyright notices you might call it stealing, but otherwise, BSD code is there for anyone to use.
Really... Windows 2005 will have things that have been in MacOSX since 2001, huh?
Windows 95 copied things that had been in MacOS since... 1986 or so?
The way I count things, MS is getting better, right? They went from 9 years behind to 4 years behind, in only 10 years.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
The result was Windows 95 and Apple had nothing to bite back with except Guy Kawasaki. They seem to have their act together a lot more these days. Let's hope that, by the time Longhorn is released, they're four years ahead again.
What Would the Fab Five Do?
Do you know who they both steal from? BSD.
Stealing from a dead man is called scavenging.
Mikey-San
Karma: +Eleventy billion (mostly affected by watching Celebrity Jeopardy)
While OSX does enjoy several advantages over OS/2, I am not convinced that it's going to be enough to buy Apple any long-term gain. I suspect that any move Microsoft makes against the Open Source community will also be very dangerous to Apple. At the very least, Apple is going to have to remain vigilant if they are to avoid any potential dirty tricks.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I remember when IBM announced their first personal computer. Of course, Apple said something like "Welcome. Serioiusly."
Then Apple got it's head kicked in.
In our world, quality does NOT sell computers. This new Microsoft machine doesn't have to be nearly as good as a Macintosh to be good enough for people who don't know any better. That principal, already, has been proven.
Thankfully, there is one important difference between those days and today: Apple is working its arse off and not just talking shit.
Apple is definitely pushing the industry -- that has always been its charter. Let us all hope that they don't forget all the obligations that role entails.
--Richard
From the summary: "...'The one thing Apple's providing now is leadership in colors'..."
And this is the *best* thing MS can copy? Whatever happened to increasing security? Opening standards? Interoperability? Customer support? Fixing bugs?
Nope...gotta get them colours right...
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
I still have a T-shirt that says:
"Macintosh
The power of Windows 95... since 1984"
In the _seventies_?!
:)
Wow, that _would_ have been impressive!
NeXt was founded in 86, so no....but the rest of your argument bears some merit
Oh, and BTW, Apple has a definite point here. The difference is that Apple took an unfriendly OS and turned it into a consumer product.
Microsoft now announces:
The arrival of the nExT generation desktop! This desktop will include all-new technology, such as scalable icons and a specialized bar at the bottom that we like to call "the port." You can now land programs in the port, and ship programs from the port.
At the windows developers meeting, we will be unvailing the UCAPI, or universal component API. This API will be a C++/C# centric API, where MS nExT developers can place descendant classes of current coponents in a directory, and they will be automatically "turned on" for use in all programs that used the original component! Imagine the possibilities, such as a multi-threaded spell-checking text box!
We at MS are very excited to be the frontrunners in this brand-new nExT-generation technology!
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Doubtful since NeXT didn't exist until Jobs left Apple (later 80s). But yes, they did have PostScript for Displays as their rendering engine. Rumor has it the reason they switched to PDF was to keep from paying Adobe licensing $$$.
Let me see --
.
...
Windows (19)95 was a brand new operating system concept never conceived before -- with the exception of Macintosh OS (1988)
iWin (2004) is a brand new computer concept never conceived before -- with the exception of iMac (1997) then iMac FP
Reverse engineering is the sincerest form of flattery. Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery. Copyright violation is the sincerest form of flattery. -- M$ ripping you off is the sincerest form of flattery.
Run, Apple, run!
This is reminiscent of Sony. Sony was only 15% of the consumer electronics market (compared to National/Panasonic), so Sony had to innovate or die. As Sony innovated, others would take Sony's ideas, reverse engineer them, modify them, and create competing products. [Revive Beta versus VHS argument, here] For example, Sony developed and sold the only digital camera with memory card and modem in the early 80s. It did not catch on and Sony was about to cancel the product line when a reporter took pictures of an aircraft crash, sent them to his editor, and his newspaper scooped everyone with pictures. Now, few remember the original Sony digital camera with stick and modem and how Sony helped lead the digital revolution
Sony leads, others follow.
Apple innovates, M$ assimilates
Its NOT about churning out a first rate product. First rate products are hard to build take time and don't make you very rich very quickly.
GM, Ford and AMC don't churn out great cars. No Lamborghini's, no Roll's Royces, not even a Beamer. But they churn out a lot of crappy ones and make some money on each one.
Its all about the Benjamins. M$ would churn out Goethes, Bachs, Rembrants and Piranene's if anybody figured out a way to make a buck doing that.
But that's not likely is it? So you get "wanna-be" "rip-off" crap that doesn't work well, look good or last long because there's more money in churning crap.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Mac users have known about this for years. Witness the bumper sticker from a few years ago (from a MacWorld con? I can't remember anymore...):
"Windows 98 = Macintosh '89"
Yeah, MS does put some neat and genuinely innovative stuff into their OS's, but that's just "some." They have all this money, yet nary an interface design department that I can tell of.
- emilio
neurostyle dot net - it's all in your head
We can be sure Apple is hard at work on something exciting for 2005. They just won't tell us about it two years in advance.
Surely there are adacemic researchers out there probing the frontier of human-computer interaction that could use Linux as the basis for their work? Could it be that X is slowing us down somehow?
No, it's not X. I've done some HCI work, including some very early contributions to Gnome. It is almost never the technology that slows you down in this area, it's almost always people's mindset.
One thing that's been really damaging Linux in this regard is the load of people who believe that Linux absolutely has to copy windows. Very obviously, innovation and copycat behaviour don't work well together.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
how dare you! next, you'll be telling us that al gore didn't say he invented the internet! or, that iraq doesn't have any wmd! it's /. not the new york times... er...
Even the background image on the Athens PC looks vaguely like the default OS X background image.
I'm also amused that no one seems to have noticed that while none of the individual ideas MS is pushing are wildly new, the level integration of basic work tasks will be very impressive if it works as hyped...
Clear, Dark Skies
the gap can't patent the t-shirt!
Consider:
Would anyone be surprised if Longhorn turns out to be BETTER than OS X?
Would anyone be shocked if, alternatively, by 2005, OS X had progressed to a further point than Longhorn then?
And which of you would switch just because of that? As for me, I'm sticking to the Mac anyway.
Detroit puts out beautiful, well done, and only sometimes missing an engine concept cars. Then they try to sell you a crappy car that got up on the wrong side of the design bed at the dealership.
"... I don't think." -- Bill Gates
"Apple executives took obvious glee last week in ... Microsoft's 2005 version of its Windows operating system, apes features that have been in Apple's OS X operating system since 2001."
Apple Innovates Again and Patents Apes in an Operating System.
Steve Jobs sued Microsoft yesterday over use of clothed chimps to code Longhorn in a blatant attempt to get around the Apple "ape patent."
Jobs, "Even if they are successful in fighting off the lawsuit, everyone knows that apes are stronger than chimps. This details why Microsoft has been plagued by security problems. Don't send in a chimp to do an ape's work!"
Jobs added that the next version of the iMac will also utilize a design patent related to apes.
"Microsoft may have decided to copy our flat panel design, but we still have another patent related to computers that change color. Our designers included this after observing the multiple colors on the back sides of some primates. We call them rainbow butt monkeys internally and the next iMacs will have coloring simlar to that. Most chimps have plain hairy butts, but ours don't. So that's another reason that people will find our computers more pleasing to look at and easier to use."
While Apple has been known for rounded edges on computer cases, Jobs declined comment on whether the behinds of "rainbow butt monkeys" or plain chimps were more pleasing to the touch.
Apple didn't invent color management or color science either. They simply happened to have a large graphics arts user community, so they were the first to incorporate this stuff into their systems.
Microsoft, Apple, and Linux are each years behind the state of the art in many areas. Windows XP is some VMS work-alike on steroids, and OS X is a warmed-over version of NeXTStep. And Linux still gives you that warm-and-fuzzy UNIX feeling from, oh, 15 years ago. That's the way it is with commercial or real-world systems. Just because Apple happens to incorporate some feature into their system first doesn't give them claim to it in perpetuity.
>Copying is the sincerest form of plagurism.
Copying from the dictionary is the surest-fire way of spelling "plagiarism" correctly.
Ask me about LOOM(TM).
So while on your iLoo, feel free to serve up a steaming pile of video and voice ;)
Yes. Apple gave Xerox quite a lot of stock options for what little they used from the Alto work. And they got permission from Xerox HQ to look at the inner works of Alto in the first place. Xerox PARC was more than hesitant, but HQ ordered them to cooperate.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
An assertion with no more evidence then "do a google search", which turns up nothing anyway. I've never heard anything like this, and I suspect that you, like a lot of apple advocates have seriously misinterpreted the facts.
Show some real evidence, please.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Exacly what features of the Nextstep does win95 offer? "windowblinds"? Sure, if you download a serious modification. 95 shipped with the clumsy three button junk from win3.1 plus an extra button and a pannel. A root menue anywhere on the screen? Nope. The way it resizes windows? Nope. Menues that you can leave up on the screen? Nope. Can you name one feature that is not simply part of any GUI? I'm not going to go into the tremendous difference in the unerlying systems but just look at the apearances alone.
Nextstep was made from MacOS and was better. Windoze never did much more than follow along the GUI path, never evolving much from the first one they made. The evolution and lines of influence are clear when you look at screen shots from each.
For those of you not familiar with Next, check out this 1993 screen shot of the first web browser. The client was developed in 1990. There are many free implementations of the Nextstep such as Window Maker today. It still kicks any GUI Microsoft has ever made. After using a reasonable window manager on X, few people can go back to the M$ GUI confines.
For those of you fortunate enough to have missed Windoze 3.1, here is a little screen shot from 1993 or so when Netscape became one of the first available browsers for Windoze. 95 added the X button on the top right, so I suppose you could say it coppied Nextstep in one way. Here is a typical Win95/98 desktop. Windoze XP (screen shot to compare), is more of the same and annoying as all hell.
Please don't compare reasonable software, such as Nextstep or Sun's Common Desktop Environemnt, to junk from Microsoft. People might get the idea that one was better than it is or that the other sucks in ways it never did.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
That's not Apple's default desktop picture, Apple's is very different than that. What is pictured is a wallpaper that ships with every copy of Windows XP. I believe it's called Crystal.
You can also enable the debug menu from the Terminal by typing (with Safari not running): % defaults write com.apple.safari Includedebugmenu 1 then restarting Safari.
Can I make a suggestion? Depending on the site you're referring to, and your connection with them, email them and tell them that you won't do business with them until they remove that crap.
It's one thing to not support your browser, it's another to support it, but make an assumption that it won't work, or push IE for any other reason.
The same type of thing happened with my bank: I emailed them, and quite quickly the problem was fixed.
Why did I do this? Because I want to make sure that they realise that people do care about what they use, and I want to make sure that my browser name shows up in their logs: we're not going to get any support if they keep seeing IE strings there, and we're just going to have to continue faking it.
I'm sorry to inform you that Microsoft has prior art regarding this patent. Specifically, Steve Ballmer's "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" performance.
The point was that win95 was still dos underneath, and you still had 8.3 filenames in there, they just faked it to make it look like long filenames were supported. So the C:\ongrats.w95 very elegantly said "Ha, that's just a cheap hack on top of DOS, with all the same limitations", or something like that.
Liberty uber alles.
Everybody has copied from the Bible. All the answers to every OS out there can be found in the Old Testament (for applications go to the New Testament). You only need to search for the answers following a plain cabalistic algorithm too simplistic to be mentioned here without insulting people's intelligence. elmusafir Who cares!
The iLoo (portable toilet with Internet access) thing that has been floating around the media for the last week (CNN, CNET, etc, all had articles) turns out to be a "April Fools joke" according to MS representatives (CNET). The only problem: they released it on May 2nd. Damn! They can't even release their jokes on time.
But meanwhile the Amiga had more of those features than Mac 7.1 at that time. No protected memory, but full round robin preemptive multitasking since 1985 with color high res screens. Even with a 68000 at 7MHz with a few Megs of RAM it was a power user system.
And terrible marketing.
It is true that marketing and market savvy are king. Otherwise Microsoft would be in the dust bin of history and it would be Amiga and Mac that were vying for market share.
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.
C:\Documents and Settings\Dave>su
"I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that."
C:\Documents and Settings\Dave>
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.