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Microsoft Bites Apple, Apple Bites Back
hype7 writes "The NYT (free reg reqd etc) is running an interesting article on where MS seems to be getting all the ideas for its next big OS release, Longhorn. It's only a quickie, but they look at MS's big news from WinHEC, and their possible sources for inspiration. They also pull out that fantastic Bill Gates quote: 'The one thing Apple's providing now is leadership in colors'; and that Apple execs are now having a laugh of their own over how Longhorn, 'Microsoft's 2005 version of its Windows operating system, apes features that have been in Apple's OS X operating system since 2001.'"
I recall, years back, an avi making the rounds with Bill Gates speaking (at a MacWorld?) and sheepishly admitting that the Mac was the best or had the best desktop or something along those lines. As if Win95 didn't cement clearly the view that Microsoft indeed was impressed with, at least the look and feel, we get more of this, "Gee, Apple is visionary, so we'll just copy what they do", from the big innovator. Well, no surprise, but I do wonder whether there's an agreement where Microsoft pays Apple for some of this, or is it just payment 'in-kind' (meaning Microsoft products which run on Macs)?
"As a matter of fact we do have a Research and Development department, we call it, 'Apple Computer, Inc.'"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Apple copies Microsoft, and Microsoft copies Apple.
Apple coppied the WinXP feature that lets users switch who's logged in without losing state. And Microsoft copies features from Apple. Its the Kettle calling the Pot black...
Used to be Apple had a great GUI since the early 1980's when Microsoft came out with Windows 3.1. around 1990.
The same company that didn't offer a preemptive, protected multitasking OS until OS X, years and years after Microsoft had Windows NT?
This has been going on for decades. I remember when Win95 came out and people were talking about all the great "new" features it had. It was all things my Mac (running 7.1 at the time) had had for years.
Nothing has really changed all these years.
Competition makes the product better. MS learns, they are not stupid. They are stealing from Linux, they are stealing from Apple, Linux is stealing from both, etc.
:)
Feed on each other to make a stronger whole
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
Another Slashdot story detailing how Microsoft can't possibly be actually good at anything, it can only *copy* good things. Or steal. Or bully. Yawn.
When individuals mock other groups in a social setting they're called insecure and intimidated.
Same here. Everyone here is a Microphobe. My suspicion is that everyone goes home, hides in their closet, and plays with their WinCE handhelds.
Then they sued M$ and we all laughed a bit more :)
Slashdot - The one stop shop for procrastination
...can you slap together a monitor, a keyboard, and whiz bang periphals anyway?
It seems that someone must lead the way to new designs. If not Apple, who then?
"There are more pleasant things to do than beat up people." --Muhammad Ali
Seriously, this 'article' is the journalistic equivalent of the Sci-Fi channel bumpers and the only reason I can see for Slashdot to post it is to start another anti-MS feeding frenzy.
Do different companies in the same industry steal ideas from each other? Yes. Is it news? Not unless they get caught doing it before the other fella, i.e. industrial spying.
Not only has Apple been selling cinema-style flat panel displays for several years, but last year it filed patent application 20030002246, titled "active enclosure for computing device," ...
Help, I'm conflicted.
Considering this is all that linux distros have been doing for the past several years, how is this news? It seems that this same idea gets rehashed every so often. Yes, I'm not happy that lil' BG turned on Apple, but what do you expect Microsoft to do...
Microsoft Employee: Look, Apple just added X feature to OS X!
Bill Gates: Well rats. Since they beat us to the punch, we should just voluntarially not add the feature for the next five to ten years as if they had a patent on it or something.
Microsoft Employee: Good idea sir!
No way - as soon as one company adds some service or markets an idea, other companies can start using it as well. Apple's and Linux's big problem isn't microsoft stealing little features and design attributes, it's that people don't realize that both are very stable and allow you to do almost the exact same thing as a PC running windows. If that myth ever goes away, then there's a legitimate chance that users will start to move over at a noticeable rate to alternative platforms for the desktop.
Matt Fahrenbacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Honestly, you'd think the Internet would have spread information to the four corners of the Earth, but all it does it perpetuate the myths.
--- Ban humanity.
Leave it to Microsoft and HP to turn the sleek "I want it" of an Apple into something that looks like a cheap rip-off for a kids toy company. If that's the best they can do in the design, they need to get out and get some fresh ideas.
That article was short and uninformative. The only "innovative" feature clearly alleged stolen is the particular aspect ratio of the screen, which 1) who cares and 2) isn't an "idea", just a design choice.
That computer looks like an iMac using a painted Commodore 64 keyboard and 2 little arms stuck on the sides. Couldn't they integrate the camera into the screen a little better? And what is that thing hanging off the left side? And why on Earth would it be there? Couldn't that be under the keyboard somewhere?
I know it's a prototype, but isn't this the stage where you make it beautiful - because it doesn't have to work well yet?
This is why MS gets accused of copying more often than anyone else. It's a second class rip off. When you steal from something, you should be able to look at the original and improve upon it. This is just playing catch up.
Heck, it reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon where an "InstalSHIELD" type program displays the message "Install Wizard is now placing orders for products you will probably need... Found your credit card number..."
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
Can M$ actually do this w/out incurring the wrath of Apple's lawyers?
--Keeping the flame wars alive, one post at a time
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
Yeah, after they check out Apple's latest OSX version "Panther" in July :)
They only need a few months to emulate what they see there, right?!
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
I have good frieds at M$. This is no trade secret, but MAC OS X is not the only place they are getting ideas. Just about every person on know as M$ (about 10) has some linux distro running at home or in a VM. I am sure we can all find features in linux that the new Windows will have.
Seriously, they should just port all their stuff to linux and built a Windows GUI to replace X (I have nothing against X, that would just be a good strategy for M$. Or, they can keep making all the friggin money they are making now).
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
Am I the only one who remembers the "Look and Feel" lawsuit Apple lost after MS first released Windows? MS already knows they can steal anything they like without any significant retribution from either the government or other corporations, which is exactly what they do. The only real innovation coming from Redmond is new and better ways to take other people's technology, add it to their own, then put the original creators out of business.
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
Microsoft steals from apple. Apple steals from microsoft. Do you know who they both steal from? BSD.
(NB. This isn't meant to be a rant. This isn't meant to start an OS flame war. This isn't a troll. It's just an observation.)
Sometimes Microsoft copies Apple, sometimes Apple copies Microsoft. Sometimes Linux copies from both of them, sometimes they both copy from Linux.
Big deal.
Playing feature catch-up isn't anything new. It's been around since the stone age - "Hey, look, that guy's spear flies truer than ours because it's lighter and straighter. Let's do that too."
Apart from OS zealots, does anyone really give a damn which OS was the first to sport a particular feature? I mean, do you really care more about which OS had the feature first than which has the best implementation? Even then, how often is one single feature* the overriding factor when determining your choice of platform?
(*Just to be clear, when I say feature, I'm talking about code, like pre-emptive multi-tasking, not price and real-world aesthetics, such as how much an OS costs or how good the box looks on your desktop. Obviously, there are people out there who'll use Linux because it's a low cost solution and there are people out there who'll use Apple Macs because they like their physical design.)
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
I mean, sure, we can go back and forth with the same old MS vs Apple BS... but there is something new and humorous to point out here:
Did anybody notice the desktop image used in the promo photo of the MS/HP Athens (top right of atricle page)? It's as if MS said: "you're damned right we're copying Apple. Fuck them! We'll copy their default desktop image, too, pompous bastards that they are!"
Still, XP does boot and shut down fast. That's something worth paying for and I wish Apple would follow.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
The underlying issue is that people feel that somehow 'their' particular technological provider is the sole benefactor of whatever un-patent-worthy trend in the industry is going on. We should be glad that this isn't the case, but due to 'interface addiction' we see innovation spreading as somehow threatening. All it theatens is the ability to feel superior.
What, do you think iTunes is visionary? How about the idea of a 'digital media hub'? These are ancient news in the computing world and the fact that one company got to market a year before the other says more about scheduling than it does about innovation.
The absolute worst is people who think Microsoft making their UI more 'soft' was a direct response to OS X. These UI changes don't get dreamed up at the last minute -- they're part of an evolution that takes years.
I will admit there are some times when it's pretty blatant that a company's idea is stolen.
Computer manufacturers noticed apple's sales take off when they went for a more stylish look. Yes, they're copying. It's called capitalism and it's what raises the bar for everyone. What, do you think apple came up the idea of making something they're selling look good?
It's no different from JC Penny selling some fashion that the GAP came up with. Thanks for the idea, say hello to the free market. We as consumers win, the innovator gets first-to-market advantage. But that's ALL they get.
What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
That Microsoft HP computer doesnt look at all good or pratical. It reminds me of a dentist chair. If microsoft is pushing towards Home intertainment they need to produce something that looks good in homes. That is where Apple Excells. People can argue about Tech Specs untill they are blue in the face and it will never end. I am at the opinion PC and Macs technically are about equal and a couple Seconds here and there dosent bother me. But apple products have a practical and formfull design to their products. That actually look good in a home or office. And sometimes that is actually more important. If an i-Mac makes your office seem more high tech and clean then it could help make a potentional customers (The ones that pay the cash and often arnt to technical) because your office seems to be organized and modern. And at home a lot of people dont like having Big Off White or Black boxes in their rooms because they seem to be an indrustral design in a non industral room. Most of us dont really care how a computer will look with your room but for others it is more of a consern and the tech specs dont matter that much if they both can get the job in a resionable amount of time.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
And no, I don't think that my comment is one of the four percent. Consider it a statistical anomaly.
But can't you also see two teams (one at Apple, the other at Microsoft) thinking:
"We have all these entrenched 3D GPUs...what can we do to take advantage of them?"
It's really hard to say GPU acceleration of the GUI is an Apple only idea. If you get past that, "What snazzy stuff can we DO with said GPU?" is the next logical extension.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
I can't remember how many linux flavors are trying to look just like ms, run ms software, blaa blaa blaa. You anti ms people need a life.
Sure MS steals from Apple and vice versa.... So whats the big deal with computers this is already done in the automotive business everyday. If one car maker has a new feature and the public likes it, then all the car makers get the feature. Its that simple. In the end features are driven by the consumers, not the companies. If companies could just keep shipping last years products and make a profit, they would (and some do). So quit with the eternal bitching and moaning regarding whose stealing what innovation. M$ is evil for lots of reasons but this is really not an evil act in and of itself. Windows is, in and of itself.
. I love the sound of burning women and screaming rubber....
Surely there are adacemic researchers out there probing the frontier of human-computer interaction that could use Linux as the basis for their work? Could it be that X is slowing us down somehow? I mean, think of how much fuss there was over minor and superficial enhancements antialiased fonts and transparent windows. Where are the big ideas?
The Open Source community has demonstrated that it can play catch-up and play it well, but when are we going to see Windows and Apple stealing important UI features from Linux?
MS, Apple, and Linux compete. KDE copies the Windows interface, because it is so well known and successful. MS copies the Apple GUI. Apple copies (literally) BSD and Konq.
Round it goes. Its called competition.
If you fall for any of their propoganda, its your own fault. MS and Apple are hypocritical, but they are corporations people. They are trying to make money off of you.
OSX is a dream OS ..
.. play Warcraft3 .. run Adobe Photoshop .. and use Cron .. all on the same machine in the same OS -natively- without dualbooting .. and you can actually watch fullmotion video (ie DVD's) behind a transparent terminal window thanks to a true OpenGL rendered desktop.
..
I can compile GNU fileutils
Apple has done in a few years what many in the Linux community have been trying to do for ages
Really... Windows 2005 will have things that have been in MacOSX since 2001, huh?
Windows 95 copied things that had been in MacOS since... 1986 or so?
The way I count things, MS is getting better, right? They went from 9 years behind to 4 years behind, in only 10 years.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
The result was Windows 95 and Apple had nothing to bite back with except Guy Kawasaki. They seem to have their act together a lot more these days. Let's hope that, by the time Longhorn is released, they're four years ahead again.
What Would the Fab Five Do?
A well run company pays attention to what users out there like and duplicates it in as much as is possible. A badly run company refuses to cede to users' demands and suffers from a bad case of "not-invented-here" (NIH) syndrome.
.... Sorry I forgot where I was. Slashdot is about dissing Microsoft, whether justified or not.
Here's a case (for once) in which Microsoft responds to users demands and it does so in response to the threat of competition from Apple. Wasn't this what it is supposed to be all about?
OSX is slick, it feels 50 times more refined than Windows2K/WindowsXP,KDE,Gnome. The way it renders full color icons, of multiple sizes.
Every time I go by the Apple store, I can't help myself and go in and play with the powermac G4 with two cineramic desplays. I like to take the Monsters Inc. trailer and fill one display with it, then drag it over to the other cinematic display!!!
DDDRRRRRROOOOOOL!
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Big companies do buy competitors products, strip them down an analyse what they have used and how much it costs etc... I'm sure they also have experts that advice them on what they can get away with doing in regard to copying their ideas.
What I'm worried about is that Apple will do the same thing it did when Windows 95 came out, and when the IBM PC came out which was mock them as inferior while doing nothing to improve their own products to stay a decade ahead of everyone else.
...MS more than any other company, but they are ALL the same. ORACLE is filled with assholes, Apple is filled with idiots and assholes. MS is filled with assholes. All companies are if you're a critic.
Note the use of the term 'apes'. FFS, if this was a posting about how Apple have followed some of MS's directions (posted many times here), people would never use the word 'apes', they would couch it in terms and phrases like 'taking the best from the lump of crap Windows' and 'improving on MS' pathetic attempts...'
Can't you MS bashers see how absolutely f*cking biased you are, simply by examining the language you use? You people make me want to like (gag) MS...
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Didn't Next have a compositing display engine way back in the 70's via its postscript based engine? And as memory serves served as inspiration for Aqua and it's PDF based display engine.
While OSX does enjoy several advantages over OS/2, I am not convinced that it's going to be enough to buy Apple any long-term gain. I suspect that any move Microsoft makes against the Open Source community will also be very dangerous to Apple. At the very least, Apple is going to have to remain vigilant if they are to avoid any potential dirty tricks.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I remember when IBM announced their first personal computer. Of course, Apple said something like "Welcome. Serioiusly."
Then Apple got it's head kicked in.
In our world, quality does NOT sell computers. This new Microsoft machine doesn't have to be nearly as good as a Macintosh to be good enough for people who don't know any better. That principal, already, has been proven.
Thankfully, there is one important difference between those days and today: Apple is working its arse off and not just talking shit.
Apple is definitely pushing the industry -- that has always been its charter. Let us all hope that they don't forget all the obligations that role entails.
--Richard
From the summary: "...'The one thing Apple's providing now is leadership in colors'..."
And this is the *best* thing MS can copy? Whatever happened to increasing security? Opening standards? Interoperability? Customer support? Fixing bugs?
Nope...gotta get them colours right...
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
and Quartz is so original. I bet no software company had ever thought up using a 3D card to render a desktop. That wasn't the natural evolution of things or anything. And Microsoft isn't waiting to deploy one until the hardware is ready or anything. Apple is first to the market with a lot of stuff, not because they are visionary, but because they release it when the hardware isn't ready for it yet.
'Microsoft's 2005 version of its Windows operating system, apes features that have been in Apple's OS X operating system since 2001.'
My, they are catching up; back in 1995 it was "Windows 95 = Mac 85". So the difference is down to just four years now? Amazing -- perhaps they will be head-to-head with Apple by 2015 or thereabout?
-Lasse
inciteful or insightful?
Dang it all anyway! Used to be able to read the articles by changing www in the url to archive or archives (I forget which, but tried them both). They don't let you do that anymore ;-(
I know slashdotters have a userid and password for this site, but I can't seem to find the old post that mentioned it anywhere. Someone care to post it again? I thought it was slashdot and hacker or something like that.
-- DuckWing
Is it me or does the Athens PC look just as stupid as beige boxes? Nothing like my Lian-Li PC case, which is slick in sort of an industrial h4x0r sort of way!
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
~Eight years ago, Mac users said the interface on Win95 had features that were reminiscent of Apple's signature Mac OS. In short, this is nothing new.
This sig no verb.
Uhhh... ya. Good one. Keep up the good work.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
Both companies have copied each other on several occasions. Innovation is dead. Paradigm shift has become synonymous with re-decoration. Or maybe Im just jaded.
I don't think many people reasonable people will argue that Microsoft has a better (aesthetically at least) desktop than Apple even though it is completely subjective. I also don't think many reasonable people would argue that Apple hardware is a better "value" (price vs perf) than a comparable Windows box. (Bear with me for a second Im going somewhere with this).
I think there is bigger picture that is being missed in this whole Athens thing. PC users tend to place more importance on price vs performance where Apple users generally put aesthetics above performance and price. Microsoft realizes this and is therefore moving towards a convergance of those preferences probably in an attempt to "unswitch" some people.
I still have a T-shirt that says:
"Macintosh
The power of Windows 95... since 1984"
The Apple iMac was unveiled today, in translucent "Bondi Blue". This new computer sports a screaming 233 mHz G3 processor, 6 gigabyte HD, and 32 megabytes ram
A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without bricks tied to its head
Oh, and BTW, Apple has a definite point here. The difference is that Apple took an unfriendly OS and turned it into a consumer product.
Microsoft now announces:
The arrival of the nExT generation desktop! This desktop will include all-new technology, such as scalable icons and a specialized bar at the bottom that we like to call "the port." You can now land programs in the port, and ship programs from the port.
At the windows developers meeting, we will be unvailing the UCAPI, or universal component API. This API will be a C++/C# centric API, where MS nExT developers can place descendant classes of current coponents in a directory, and they will be automatically "turned on" for use in all programs that used the original component! Imagine the possibilities, such as a multi-threaded spell-checking text box!
We at MS are very excited to be the frontrunners in this brand-new nExT-generation technology!
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Billy Gates has
They can copy whatever they want. It's still not going to compel me to trade in OS X for Windows.
What did you expect? Microsoft gets a lose/lose situation on Slashdot. If they did NOT add these features OS X has, Linux zealots would be spouting how inferior Windows is. However, since they DID add the features that everyone seems to want, the plan is just to belittle the fact that Windows 2003 will probably be an improvement on Windows 2000/XP because of features "lifted" from OS X.
this sig limit is too small to put anything good h
control. alt. numpad-plus.
"Longhorn is quartz" "OSX has colors"
.net framework and trying to kick open source out for good. Meanwhile apple maintains its stronghold on closed computer hardware, but uses open source software to base its OS on.
Ya know what? WHATEVER. Nothing new or inventive from either one of those camps. Just boring old screens with some color. Who cares. Copy each other? Of course, thats how it works. Ever notice that possible KDE and Gnome just didnt come out of nowhere? With the exception of maybe Enlightenment, nobody is doing anything truly interesting with the desktop itself. (oh yeah everyone thank Xerox for the GUI, thats where it all began).
But whats really going on?
Microsoft goes the extra mile of course and throws in spyware and DRM and begins its road towards a closed
So whats NOT interesting is the desktop, but the hardware and software base. MS is jealous of the fact that Apple has so much control over their hardware (and software to some extent) and Apple is jealous of MS for having such a huge user base.
As each company moves towards its goals: Read MAKE MONEY, dont think for a second it has anything to do with making computing better, the consumer had better keep thier eyes wide open, and not worry so much about a some desktop theme.
BTW: I tried to be objective: But I have always disliked Macs. From way back when I had a two-button mouse, multi-tasking, thousands of colors, full screen animation, stereo sound, and more. What did the mac have? A black and white screen and a wild eep for sound. Yet even then the mac fanbots would tell me how great it was. The PC crowd didnt have fanbots like that, it was just known that the PC (lets see they were just getting 286's) was what it was, just a text editor.
Its too bad that we argue about the PC and Mac as if either was all that interesting, and we know full well that a good idea is worth copying.
ONE LAST NOTE: I have only watched someone else use OSX. They used it for a while and then it was replaced with Gentoo (go figure). Is apple still so ass backword that dragging disks to the trash is the way to eject them? And empty trash is under "Special"?
Let me see --
.
...
Windows (19)95 was a brand new operating system concept never conceived before -- with the exception of Macintosh OS (1988)
iWin (2004) is a brand new computer concept never conceived before -- with the exception of iMac (1997) then iMac FP
Reverse engineering is the sincerest form of flattery. Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery. Copyright violation is the sincerest form of flattery. -- M$ ripping you off is the sincerest form of flattery.
Run, Apple, run!
This is reminiscent of Sony. Sony was only 15% of the consumer electronics market (compared to National/Panasonic), so Sony had to innovate or die. As Sony innovated, others would take Sony's ideas, reverse engineer them, modify them, and create competing products. [Revive Beta versus VHS argument, here] For example, Sony developed and sold the only digital camera with memory card and modem in the early 80s. It did not catch on and Sony was about to cancel the product line when a reporter took pictures of an aircraft crash, sent them to his editor, and his newspaper scooped everyone with pictures. Now, few remember the original Sony digital camera with stick and modem and how Sony helped lead the digital revolution
Sony leads, others follow.
Apple innovates, M$ assimilates
Its NOT about churning out a first rate product. First rate products are hard to build take time and don't make you very rich very quickly.
GM, Ford and AMC don't churn out great cars. No Lamborghini's, no Roll's Royces, not even a Beamer. But they churn out a lot of crappy ones and make some money on each one.
Its all about the Benjamins. M$ would churn out Goethes, Bachs, Rembrants and Piranene's if anybody figured out a way to make a buck doing that.
But that's not likely is it? So you get "wanna-be" "rip-off" crap that doesn't work well, look good or last long because there's more money in churning crap.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
the MS/HP computer looks suspiciously like bill gates head (note the ears) and the imac, well both versions look like steves round head! whats going on here...some kind of conspiracy or something.
I seem to recall that microsoft research was working on a '3d' user interface system many years ago. It displayed windows as textures on billboards in a 3d space.
3d compositing is actually a scaled back version of a full 3d space, in that it prevents windows from having tilt, so that z-buffering is easier.
I also remember reading an article about a composited desktop on the microsoft website prior to OSX coming out, which described many of the features that are now in the longhorn set.
And lastly, I have not seen anyone substantiate the claim that MS's implementation is a carbon-copy of OSX. There are some definate features in common, but there is bound to be vast differences. Simply adopting a superior technology which a competitor happens to also use is USUALLY considered a good thing. If this DIDNT happen, we'd all still be using command line interfaces...
oh wait... many of us still are.
the ole slashdot story spinner 9000 seems to be functioning normally...
Umm...this assumes you have a decent x-configuration, but Ctrl-Alt-Plus and Ctrl-Alt-Minus switch resolutions/color depths on MY linux box.
I've been able to hand-roll X configs to do it since 1996 at least, although I'd have to check to see if any distros do it out of the box.
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
Anyone notice that the guy who wrote this article is the evil John Markoff who profited from Kevin Mitnick's story?
Posting useless rant since 2003.
Mac users have known about this for years. Witness the bumper sticker from a few years ago (from a MacWorld con? I can't remember anymore...):
"Windows 98 = Macintosh '89"
Yeah, MS does put some neat and genuinely innovative stuff into their OS's, but that's just "some." They have all this money, yet nary an interface design department that I can tell of.
- emilio
neurostyle dot net - it's all in your head
why would apple be laughing at microsoft for incorporating features already in os X? they should instead be scratching their heads and wonder how the hell microsoft is so much more popular despite the "lag."
" ... which in turn have been in NeXTstep since the beginning of fucking time.
Microsoft's 2005 version of its Windows operating system, apes features that have been in Apple's OS X operating system since 2001.
"
StoneCypher is Full of BS
Who cares if Microsoft steals an idea from Apple, or vice versa? Would it really affect either of them?
Say a VCR manufacture steals an idea from a refrigerator manufacture. Does that make the VCR a better refrigerator? NO.
If Microsoft steals an idea from Apple it's not going to make Windows a better Mac. All it does is makes Windows better.
Same from the Apple perspective. "It's not a PC, it's a Macintosh." as the old adage goes. Which means you wouldn't use a Mac for 'personal computing'.
Take a look at any Fortune 500 company (except Apple) and you'll see that Windows (ie. PCs) is used by 'Knowledge Workers'. Macs are used by people who can't tell the difference between a VCR and a refrigerator.
Follow the adventures of the new wandering jews
Uhhh... the use of the word "apes" actually comes from the article, not the usual M$ bashers...
We can be sure Apple is hard at work on something exciting for 2005. They just won't tell us about it two years in advance.
"Wait until the fall when we'll go into more detail at the Professional Developers Conference."
:-)
Well, gee, that's a great comeback. What are they going to have? How much can change? How much can a one corporate entity innovate?
Can we go into the R, G, & B values for those fancy colors?
T.
This space for rent.
"Resistorum Est Futilitatis"
[unknown]
We are the Borg.
Lower your shields, and surrender your ship.
We will add your biological and technological
distinctiveness to our own.
Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Resistance is futile.
Freedom is irrelevant;
Self-determination is irrelevant;
You must comply.
Strength is irrelevant.
Death is irrelevant.
Your defensive capabilities
are unable to withstand us.
Resistance is futile.
Your life, as it has been, is over.
From this time forward, you will service us
Surely there are adacemic researchers out there probing the frontier of human-computer interaction that could use Linux as the basis for their work? Could it be that X is slowing us down somehow?
No, it's not X. I've done some HCI work, including some very early contributions to Gnome. It is almost never the technology that slows you down in this area, it's almost always people's mindset.
One thing that's been really damaging Linux in this regard is the load of people who believe that Linux absolutely has to copy windows. Very obviously, innovation and copycat behaviour don't work well together.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
how dare you! next, you'll be telling us that al gore didn't say he invented the internet! or, that iraq doesn't have any wmd! it's /. not the new york times... er...
Even the background image on the Athens PC looks vaguely like the default OS X background image.
I'm also amused that no one seems to have noticed that while none of the individual ideas MS is pushing are wildly new, the level integration of basic work tasks will be very impressive if it works as hyped...
Clear, Dark Skies
copied the term SuperUser from the SuperMan comics.
Copying is the sincerest form of plagurism.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
the gap can't patent the t-shirt!
Consider:
Would anyone be surprised if Longhorn turns out to be BETTER than OS X?
Would anyone be shocked if, alternatively, by 2005, OS X had progressed to a further point than Longhorn then?
And which of you would switch just because of that? As for me, I'm sticking to the Mac anyway.
Detroit puts out beautiful, well done, and only sometimes missing an engine concept cars. Then they try to sell you a crappy car that got up on the wrong side of the design bed at the dealership.
"... I don't think." -- Bill Gates
We'll copy their default desktop image
Like all things MS, they copy but they don't totally copy. Look at Win95. It has a lot of the features that Apple OS had for years but not all of them. For example you can change the icon used to represent all folders, but you can't change the icon for an individual folder.
I think MS and their lawyers aren't stupid. They go only so far as to look "innovative" but not outright followers. They know Apple has and will sue anyone who copies them (E-Power, the Korean iMac look-alike)
That's why the new computer looks like Apple Cinema display with ugly appendages and Longhorn with OS X features but still distinctively MS.
Actually I thought that XP and Longhorn looks more like a cross between System 8 and BeOS.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Preceded Actually.
1992 to be exact.
You're likely thinking of Apple's Network Servers, the AIX Servers that Apple sold circa 1995.
"You've got an invalid haircut" -Warren Zevon - Life'll Kill Ya
It's more like "forced to ship". Oh wait, that's a joke. OK, that's funny.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
"Apple executives took obvious glee last week in ... Microsoft's 2005 version of its Windows operating system, apes features that have been in Apple's OS X operating system since 2001."
Apple Innovates Again and Patents Apes in an Operating System.
Steve Jobs sued Microsoft yesterday over use of clothed chimps to code Longhorn in a blatant attempt to get around the Apple "ape patent."
Jobs, "Even if they are successful in fighting off the lawsuit, everyone knows that apes are stronger than chimps. This details why Microsoft has been plagued by security problems. Don't send in a chimp to do an ape's work!"
Jobs added that the next version of the iMac will also utilize a design patent related to apes.
"Microsoft may have decided to copy our flat panel design, but we still have another patent related to computers that change color. Our designers included this after observing the multiple colors on the back sides of some primates. We call them rainbow butt monkeys internally and the next iMacs will have coloring simlar to that. Most chimps have plain hairy butts, but ours don't. So that's another reason that people will find our computers more pleasing to look at and easier to use."
While Apple has been known for rounded edges on computer cases, Jobs declined comment on whether the behinds of "rainbow butt monkeys" or plain chimps were more pleasing to the touch.
That's what I thought. Yeah, you could kludge it, but until Airport, Macs didn't have 802.11 APs. MUWAHAHAHAHA. Among a LONG list of other things.
Apple didn't invent color management or color science either. They simply happened to have a large graphics arts user community, so they were the first to incorporate this stuff into their systems.
Microsoft, Apple, and Linux are each years behind the state of the art in many areas. Windows XP is some VMS work-alike on steroids, and OS X is a warmed-over version of NeXTStep. And Linux still gives you that warm-and-fuzzy UNIX feeling from, oh, 15 years ago. That's the way it is with commercial or real-world systems. Just because Apple happens to incorporate some feature into their system first doesn't give them claim to it in perpetuity.
So you're saying that Windows XP is not just a point release of Windows 2k?
Well if you go by name then it's not, but really it is. Most win2k drivers work in XP and also most XP drivers work in 2k.
Really all they did was add a few graphical enhancements and improve DirectX speed. It's still the same thing. It's about the same with 10.1 to 10.2 in OSX land.
[Quote]
Microsoft executives declined to take the bait. "We only showed glimpses of the future of Longhorn," said a Microsoft spokesman. "Wait until the fall when we'll go into more detail at the Professional Developers Conference."
[/Quote]
Translation.
Apple is going to show off Panther in June and the Apple Developers Conference. We need time to copy them, it should be ready in the fall.
The ability to have separate sessions has been a feature of unix/linux for years. It wasn't present in windows (for home users) until XP, but it's only the logical next step in OS X. You can run as many sessions as you want on a Terminal Services (which was actually a re-packaged version of citrix metaframe -- even the terminal services manager is exactly like the old citrix server manager, right down to the icons AND menus) windows 2000 or NT TSE box. Nothing new, neither one invented it. I don't see any room for name calling at all on that issue.
Speak for yourself.
Obviously, there's only one way to settle this MS vs. Apple nonsense.
Gates vs. Jobs in a steel-cage wrestling match. Anything goes!
.. it's still the same old Windows engine at the core! Wake me up when they redesign *that* .. anything else is window dressing, no pun intended ..
[previous gripes about the same thing concerning XP, NT, 98, and 95 omitted to save bandwidth]
So while on your iLoo, feel free to serve up a steaming pile of video and voice ;)
Innovation is about introducing something "new". The problem is that most of what Linux and X represents was new in the 1980s and early 1990s. And the result was that users didn't really value it.
People complain about a lack of innovation in areas that matter to them. Apple of 1984 innovated in terms of user interface, which mattered then. Today, Apple innovates in asthetics and simplicity. Microsoft innovates on feature-completeness for a flat fee. It's what people seem to want.
Of course, the fun thing about human nature is that it changes all the time, so there may come a day where network transparency and full configurability become key differentiators.
-Stu
MS didn't 'invest' in Apple out of the goodness in Bills heart. MS did put it's PR machine into high gear in an attempt to rewrite history, however. Funny how Encarta skips over this as well....
I'd make the claim that if you compare the price/performance of a Chevrolet Corvette Z06 versus an "Italian exotic car" (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc...), we'd all agree that for $50,000, the Z06 is -close enough- to leave its intended audience satisfied when compared to a $150,000 car.
:-)
If M$ can make a "Corvette" of OSes, I'd be happy. Unfortunately, it's more like a Malibu.
No, he's totally correct. If they fork off Linux, their code needs to be GPL. They can fork off FreeBSD, close the source, sell it, whatever, and it's legit. The BSD license lets you do *anything* you want, including close the source, and sell a product 100% based on their work.
Common sense is not so common.
...but a troll carrying a New York Times byline. It's simply not important to note who's copying whom. Screaming "Bill's copying me! Stop it!" is, well, childish. It's a bid for eyeballs, pure and simple.
Some may argue that this is a point that needs to be argued, that Microsoft's talk of "innovation" needs to be debunked. Fine. That is an opinion which can be expressed.
But this is a "he said/she said" dime-a-dozen news piece, one of which can always be easily manufactured by interviewing representatives from both camps. It would be NEWS if Markoff discovered a memo or two proving that Microsoft lifted design details from OS X. Without that evidence, it's simply bird-cage liner.
Yes. Apple gave Xerox quite a lot of stock options for what little they used from the Alto work. And they got permission from Xerox HQ to look at the inner works of Alto in the first place. Xerox PARC was more than hesitant, but HQ ordered them to cooperate.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
An assertion with no more evidence then "do a google search", which turns up nothing anyway. I've never heard anything like this, and I suspect that you, like a lot of apple advocates have seriously misinterpreted the facts.
Show some real evidence, please.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
...Apple took an unfriendly OS and turned it into a consumer product.
Hogwash. *BSD is *very* friendly. It's just particular about its friends.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Exacly what features of the Nextstep does win95 offer? "windowblinds"? Sure, if you download a serious modification. 95 shipped with the clumsy three button junk from win3.1 plus an extra button and a pannel. A root menue anywhere on the screen? Nope. The way it resizes windows? Nope. Menues that you can leave up on the screen? Nope. Can you name one feature that is not simply part of any GUI? I'm not going to go into the tremendous difference in the unerlying systems but just look at the apearances alone.
Nextstep was made from MacOS and was better. Windoze never did much more than follow along the GUI path, never evolving much from the first one they made. The evolution and lines of influence are clear when you look at screen shots from each.
For those of you not familiar with Next, check out this 1993 screen shot of the first web browser. The client was developed in 1990. There are many free implementations of the Nextstep such as Window Maker today. It still kicks any GUI Microsoft has ever made. After using a reasonable window manager on X, few people can go back to the M$ GUI confines.
For those of you fortunate enough to have missed Windoze 3.1, here is a little screen shot from 1993 or so when Netscape became one of the first available browsers for Windoze. 95 added the X button on the top right, so I suppose you could say it coppied Nextstep in one way. Here is a typical Win95/98 desktop. Windoze XP (screen shot to compare), is more of the same and annoying as all hell.
Please don't compare reasonable software, such as Nextstep or Sun's Common Desktop Environemnt, to junk from Microsoft. People might get the idea that one was better than it is or that the other sucks in ways it never did.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There are add-on progs for Safari that let you change what it reports as it's identity. I have gone to several web sites that refused to let me in because I wasn't using IE, told Safari to claim it was IE, and then the web site let me in and everything ran just fine.
That's not Apple's default desktop picture, Apple's is very different than that. What is pictured is a wallpaper that ships with every copy of Windows XP. I believe it's called Crystal.
No, that's where all the MONEY is though.
Win95 had premtive multitasking. It was 'difficult' for a single app to crash a win95 machine. And almost impossible for one to crash it due to a programming error, as compared to a mac where something like an infinite loop or an ivalid refrence could bring down the whole machine.
The reason win95 crashed a lot was because it was buggy, included really old code, and supported a lot of funky hardware.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I don't get it, what did Microsoft steal again? Graphics software that comes with the OS? Oh yeah, that's a new idea. Doesn't Linux come with Gimp if you want? Flat panel display and a futuristic design? Sony did it first and it was an x86 with Windows. Get real.
... isn't so important if you're not always having to go through it?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
The second post. This person rants on about how Microsoft stole big ideas (The Flat Panel and Graphics software...oooooh big new ideas), and the moderators think this is SOOO interesting. Really new stuff here.
This post (...ah f*ck it, the whole web) best viewed in Internet Explorer.
What program is this?
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi
No, I don't hide in the closet and play with anything Microsoft. I don't agree to the EULA they spout off, so I don't use Microsoft products. I believe the hardware I buy is mine, and if you actually understood the EULA to XP, you would find that agreeing to it would mean you do not own the hardware anymore. By agreeing to the EULA, you give Microsoft control of said hardware, and they feel if you no longer want XP on it, you must throw it away and purchase some other hardware. I'd show you, but I don't have any Microsoft product around to look it up for you. Sure, you could trot out the old tripe that the EULAs aren't legally enforceable, but, what if they are? Whose machine do you have? Your's, or some machine that Microsoft lets you use?
I hate the way they do business, so I don't do business with them. Simple, eh?
For those who describe their systems as 'boxen', do you order multiple 'boxen' of corn flakes also?
Not only has Apple been selling cinema-style flat panel displays for several years, but last year it filed patent application 20030002246, titled "active enclosure for computing device," which describes a machine that contains an array of rainbow-hued light-emitting diodes.
Don't you see? M$ put blinking LEDs on their case as well. Apple totally thought of that before anyone else ever had and MS is just ripping them off completely.
Oh, and there's something about how MS's new graphics layer is a rip-off of quartz, or something, as if using 'accelerated' features of modern video cards in the general GUI is totally not obvious at all.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
And 95% behind (in market share).
Personally, I think Microsoft is ahead in usability and I've used them both but that's just my opinion so don't persecute me for it. (Maybe that's asking too much on Slashdot.)
Market share has no opinion though, it's just straight fact.
Don't get me started on that :) Wasn't each iteration incompatible with the previous?
He just buys whatever they use at work because that's what they know. Businesses buy Windows because it's more economically sound and has better development features. Businesses usually take advice from people like me who do know what alternatives exist.
GM, Ford and AMC don't churn out great cars. No Lamborghini's, no Roll's Royces, not even a Beamer.
Beamer's are shit these days, and they've merged with 'amc'. Get witht the times.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
NS &/ OS let you detach menus. OSX does not. I miss it.
I think he's referring to Safari Enhancer, which basically enables the hidden Debug menu built into Safari that has the 'change user agent' feature in it, among other things.
~Philly
Huh? "Feed on each other to make a stronger whole." Is that what this is about?
This is more like a barfight in which one combatant sees another combatant poke at the eyes, and so copies that move himself.
This doesn't mean you end up with a "stronger whole." It means you end up with a bunch of blind drunks, a smashed-up bar, and wasted alchohol.
Until we start cooperating with each other, there is no such thing as a stronger whole. We only get more-attractive divisions.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Money may not be the center of all value for all people but when a large portion of businesses spend their money on one product over another it usually means one thing: that one product offers them something that the other one doesn't in the way of value.
You can also enable the debug menu from the Terminal by typing (with Safari not running): % defaults write com.apple.safari Includedebugmenu 1 then restarting Safari.
Yeah, but how long until MACs had more than a single mouse button? :D
That right click interface seems more useful. Heck, I remember back in college someone pointed out that changing the system time on a MAC was a laborious process. Then again, I didn't care at the time, so I never researched the validity of their claim...
Oh, now I get it. Hmmm, that might be why they already have .NET running on BSD.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
If I had moderator points, I'd give that a +1, Sales-Inspiring.
Seriously, I've played with my wife's Mac G4 laptop running OS X off and on, and I have to admit, it's really pretty GUI on top of a remarkable OS. (I'm a Unix bigot, though, so take that with a grain of salt.)
But I've held off plopping down money of my own for one. Gaming? I still need a Windows machine for that. Development? I still need a Unix machine for that. DVD Video? I'd like to be able to do that on the plane.
I wonder how much is in my checking account...
Can I make a suggestion? Depending on the site you're referring to, and your connection with them, email them and tell them that you won't do business with them until they remove that crap.
It's one thing to not support your browser, it's another to support it, but make an assumption that it won't work, or push IE for any other reason.
The same type of thing happened with my bank: I emailed them, and quite quickly the problem was fixed.
Why did I do this? Because I want to make sure that they realise that people do care about what they use, and I want to make sure that my browser name shows up in their logs: we're not going to get any support if they keep seeing IE strings there, and we're just going to have to continue faking it.
Hastings's Law: Cheaper and adequate wins against more expensive and better.
SCSI is better than IDE, but IDE is adequate. Beta had better quality than VHS, but VHS was adequate (and had much longer recording time on a tape). Apple was able to charge rapacious margins for a Mac in the days when x86 PCs were much harder to use; once Windows became adequate, customers started buying Windows versus the Mac.
A BMW 7 Series is a better car than a Honda Accord. But an Accord is adequate. Which sells more?
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Hmmm... No.
Ford's barely keeping its head above water right now. GM is only slightly profitable, and both companies are surviving solely on their gas-guzzler, high-margin truck models. AMC? Don't make me laugh, building 50,000 narrowly-targeted monster SUVs a year doesn't make you a player, it makes you a niche.
Ford and GM actually lose money on each Focus, Malibu, etc. consumers buy; everyday cars are a loss leader for Detroit. They churn out those crap cars so you'll hopefully get a raise later on and buy one of the (few) models they do make money on, like the Explorer et al.
BUT not Japanese automakers like Toyota and Honda. They make styled, well-appointed compacts and sedans that run forever - and they charge a premium, and they get it. The Accord has been America's best-selling car for several years now; it runs several grand more than its domestic competition, but ya know, sometimes technical merit really does win.
Sorta makes you wonder what we'd all be driving (metaphor alert) if microsoft didn't design the roads to accommodate only their models...
EEEEERRRRNNNNTTTT!
But thank you for playing!
Sept 2000 - Mac OS X Public Beta is demo-ed.
Oct 2000 - Whistler (XP) Beta 1 released w/ a Win2k look
March 2001 - XP Beta 2 released with Luna added, Mac community laughs.
Funny that they didn't included (according to you) what MUST have been a multi-year spanning IU change with their first beta. Looks more like they got scared by all of the interest that Mac OS X PB generated, and copied the interface as usual. I was beta testing both and nearly p!ssed myself laughing when I first installed the second beta of Whistler. I'd dig up some screen shots but its not really worth the time.
It's no hassle to shell out for another freakin' mouse with two buttons either, trollboy.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...
Actually, it would probably be more correct to say that Cocoa is derived from OpenStep, and OSX is derived from NeXTSTEP + OpenStep + FreeBSD.
Oh, crap - I forgot MacOS in the derived from list. But I dissed it for years and years....
My NeXT bias shines through...
If GM, Ford, or AMC could spend all there money on RD so they could just make ONE great car, then make 10,000,000 of them for no additional charge, I'm sure they would.
To tell you the truth, I'm really not sure why Windows is not perfect... Perhaps it's because everybody has a different idea about such things?
Wow, you ask about apepearance and then you talk about file systems and performance of the underlying operating system, price performance and "compatibility".
A quick look at a Mac OS 7 screenshot, convinces me more than the dissimilarity between Nextstep and windows 95 that you are full of shit. It's obvious that windoze 95 borrowed heavily from MacOS. Well, perphaps not from 7 as it came out in 1996, durring the deep darkness under the former Pepsi Lord. The tiny application bar at the bottom of the screen, combined with the tinny horizontal pannel at the top of the screen and bad taste make up the Windoze 95 GUI. That horizontal pannel has been a feature of the apple GUI at least since 1984 and the first Macs but is not found in Nextstep which simply puts the icons at the bottm of the screen, or wherever you want. Nextstep has a verticle docking station, which can be thought of as a pannel with much more flexibilty than Microsoft or Apple's. This page walks you through the evolution of the Mac GUI, a subject I'm not as familiar with as I am systems that run on x86.
In the end, I agree with you. Microsoft never innovated anything outside a court room. I think, howver, that they were only able to rip off stuff that was thrust into their faces and doubt anyone on thier campus used Next, much less were able to convice the powers that be there to persue the neater features of it. Being so "market driven" they would only rip off things proven to have wide market acceptance, despite lip service to ease of use research.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I'm sorry to inform you that Microsoft has prior art regarding this patent. Specifically, Steve Ballmer's "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!" performance.
we all know bill will make money with whatever he sell's. i do doubt that he will make it to the 13 figure mark but that's ok, he just want's to have a good time.
The problem with this statement is that it ignores the fact that the GUI is not the sole domain of Microsoft. And it claims that all GUIs found within Linux environments (I assume that's what's being suggested) are Windows clones. A cursory look at even a small sampling of Linux desktops will show how overly simplified this claim is.
Sure - there are elements of Windows to be found. Heck - one can even create a desktop that comes remarkably close to the look-and-feel of Windows. But at the same time, there are elements of other GUIs past and present. And there are also various attempts to mimic other desktops.
My Win2K desktop looks nothing like my KDE desktop which looks nothing like my GNOME2 desktop. I find it kind of ironic that I've even installed some 3rd party apps to add some of the functionality found in various XWindows Managers to Win2K. All my desktop environments now make use of elements and behaviors found across different aspects of desktop computing history (and even then, they all have some common elements). Even then, there are bits and pieces that are somewhat unique to each environment.
Of course - there's the default desktop. A fresh install of GNOME or KDE uses GUI elements arranged in a format that will be very familiar to Windows users. Which makes sense. Almost everyone has used Windows. Why plunge a new user in to an environment completely foreign? Which seems to be the strategy of the linked Lindows distribution. Oddly enough, the latest Lindows screen shots seem to be looking more like "traditional" Linux environments. Or maybe that's WinXP - which itself has come to look more like Linux.
I agree. Apple has done an excellent job at creating a consumer desktop Unix. There are definate lessons to be learned there.
The point was that win95 was still dos underneath, and you still had 8.3 filenames in there, they just faked it to make it look like long filenames were supported. So the C:\ongrats.w95 very elegantly said "Ha, that's just a cheap hack on top of DOS, with all the same limitations", or something like that.
Liberty uber alles.
I also like the fact that you disagree with me and that you've posted it here, this is a great country.
It's only folks like M$ and Apple who call it stealing. Copying and including features is what I think you mean. What we really have is M$ using Apple code gained through violation of NDAs and Apple telling people they can't make Aqua themes for browsers. Pthththfit! Closed source comercial software is full of that kind of thing, the hypocrites. They give lip service to competition and then try to keep others, for doing anything like what they do.
Meanwhile, in the free world, there are literally dozens of window managers available that can all be made to look like anything you want from Mac OS1 to XP. I'm running Window Maker, which closely resmbles Nextstep, and a few other window managers. Yes, because they are modular you can have more than one installed. They can even share code, wow.
Both Microsoft and Apple will need to adjust their models soon. The world is realizing that closed source comercial code is inferior to code that's free. If they don't let the light of day in on their codebase it will become irrelevant and no one will bother to sue anyone over it's use or theft.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
AMC was a smallish car company based out of Wisconsin, they went out of business in the 80's selling off some of their more appealing subsidiaries (Jeep, various parts makers, etc...) At no time in history that I'm aware of did they ever have anything to do with BMW (other than making military equipment to blow them up in WWII).
Everybody has copied from the Bible. All the answers to every OS out there can be found in the Old Testament (for applications go to the New Testament). You only need to search for the answers following a plain cabalistic algorithm too simplistic to be mentioned here without insulting people's intelligence. elmusafir Who cares!
AMC? They haven't made a car since the 80's, when they went out of business. You might be thinking of AM General, who makes the Hummer. And 50,000? Try under a thousand a year.
And no, try reading a GM or Ford annual report, they don't lose money on any high-volume vehicles, the only ones they lose money on are low-volume specialty vehicles, and they don't lose money very often. And the Accord may be the best selling car, but it is far outsold by Ford's F-Series and the Chevy Silverado.
"Microsoft's 2005 version of its Windows operating system, apes features that have been in Apple's OS X operating system since 2001."
Too bad OS X will always be too fucking slow.
Quoth the bumper sticker:
Simple. Less demand.
UNIX/Linux (IMHO anyway) are traditionally used primarily by highly left brained people (programmers and so on) who don't feel a need for a GUI. The only real reason why any GUI development has been done for Linux at all that I can see has been for the purpose of promoting the OS to non-technical end users...people who customarily use Windows, and therefore are used to a GUI.
Also...in terms of the next wave of UI innovations, the films Minority Report and Johnny Mneumonic feature some good ideas...the use of gloves and gestures etc...but for that we need advances in the area of hardware itself.
Except for mouse driven gesture tech, my guess is we've pretty much hit a ceiling in terms of what we can do with conventional hardware in this regard...To go further will mean we use new hardware and change the fundamental nature of user interfaces themselves...go from the traditional window-type interface to something truly virtual. Considering how long the ideas for this have been around, it's amazing really that we haven't done it yet.
The iLoo (portable toilet with Internet access) thing that has been floating around the media for the last week (CNN, CNET, etc, all had articles) turns out to be a "April Fools joke" according to MS representatives (CNET). The only problem: they released it on May 2nd. Damn! They can't even release their jokes on time.
If Gates and Jobs don't watch out they will be blindsided!
Remember that infamous little 'puter the one that Tandy went bust trying to weasel into the market with? Well the people who wrote the OS are not going away, they are just sitting quietly on the side lines picking up scraps.
Do not be too suprised in the future if the ghost of Coco comes back to life, and does an end run around the big machine in Redmond. There were features in that little OS that people do not appreciate. No chance of catching a cold through a corrupted core virus, is one of them. Steve, Billy Boy and Intel had better watch out there are software patents that no one has bought yet!
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
But meanwhile the Amiga had more of those features than Mac 7.1 at that time. No protected memory, but full round robin preemptive multitasking since 1985 with color high res screens. Even with a 68000 at 7MHz with a few Megs of RAM it was a power user system.
And terrible marketing.
It is true that marketing and market savvy are king. Otherwise Microsoft would be in the dust bin of history and it would be Amiga and Mac that were vying for market share.
I don't care who is copying who! I will be running that whatever M$ OS when it hit the net. Give me an Apple and I will download their OS tooo! Hell, let me eat my apple first!
At the end of my first session using Win XP I went to logout, to my suprise the screen started to fade to b&w. I thought this was a really nice touch and even thought maybe, just maybe, they were catching up to Apple, then I clicked logout and the background instead of dying and going toally b&w as one would expect, sprung back to full life colour just as one wouldn't expect... this is what Microsoft lacks... attention to detail. It is eviedent everywhere throughout Microsoft products. It is why Mac users love their Mac's and despise Windows. Apple has great attention to detail thats why on a Mac things just work...
-- Cut and paste is not code re-use!
Slashdotters defending DRM... am I crazy or am I the last sane one? I'm not sure sure anymore.
Slashdot continues to get more mainstream readership, even getting mentioned in print articles these days. As a side effect of this visibility, the activity of astroturfers has increased -- notice that the pro-MS AC(s) tend to have the same writing style and logical fallacies. When other readers put them in their place, a handful UIDs dog pile one or two posters with ad hominem attacks or the "you-just-don't-like-Microsoft" (appeal to emotion?) attack. Microsoft has a long practice of 'turfing in it's marketing:
Also, right now MS is in a panicked marketing blitz. notice all the product placement on the tech sites. The embarassing stuff just disappears from the top page less than a day, but the press releases sit there for weeks.
It makes sense. Most Windows users have both Windows and Office because it's what the OEMs had installed on the machines they bought, nothing more or less. Most of these are either apathetic or know nothin else, so they will not write. Others are pissed off at the low quality, made worse by Microsoft treating security and stability issues as PR issues -- How many times have you heard "computers" crash from BSD, Novell, QNX, Linux, or OS X users? Or is it just the MSCEs? Most remaining clients could go easily over to OS X or one of the Linux distros and the next IT boom would start, like the previous one, without Microsoft.
In short, they need DRM to survive the summer and few, except for MS and RIAA staff
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Shortly afterwards, a memo:
FROM: Microsoft Spokesdroid
TO: Bill Gates
SUBJECT: New features
Majesty,
They're on to us, but I think I bought some time. Tell the Longhorn guys to come up with 4-5 new features before the Developers Conf. and we're golden.
Suggestion: no paper clips with eyeballs this time. Maybe we can try automatically linking keywords to our sales partners' websites again, I think they've forgotten that one. Worth a try.
Regards,
'droid
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
Up yours asshole, go die.. now.
Regardless of what kind of innovation comes out of the Apple camp, Microsoft will still be considered the top dog. The reason is simple: Apple is not catering to the masses! Steve Jobs, with his elitist attitude toward computer products, is not shaping his company for the future. If Apple is to compete at all, they really need to venture more into the business market. They have the tools and the platform to do it...but they are not budging due to the cost and proprietary nature of their systems. Simply put, Apple needs to drop the IBM PowerPC chipset like a bad habit and port OSX to the I386 platform! Intel is running circles around everyone, especially with the release of their new chipset on a 800mhz FSB and processors starting at 3Ghz. Even when IBM releases the new PowerPC chips that run on a 900mhz FSB, it will be too little too late! As it stands, many software companies have made WinXP their preferred platform for one reason and one reason only...raw performance! Adobe has made it very clear that they prefer Intel over Apple for raw performance...and performance tests have proven it! Industry professionals that have long used Mac computers are starting to convert to using Windows systems due to the fact that better performance can be achieved on a much cheaper margin. It works like this: better performance means getting the job done in less time. Time equals money. And if you can get better performance for less money then you'll buy products that will give you that (meaning less overhead!) If Apple were to port OSX to the PC and make it widely available to anyone with a PC then I'd jump on it in a New York minute! But stupid Steve Jobs will never do that so fat chance we'll ever see Apple unlock the proprietary nature of their systems!
I took a look at the pricing of Apple's latest G4 computers and I was insulted at what I saw! $3,799 for a top of the line G4! And get this...512 megs of DDR333 memory cost $250 on Apple's website! That's insane! And they don't even have any of the latest video cards available for their computers! By comparison, I configured a top of the line Alienware workstation just for the hell of it. You can get a kick-ass Alienware computer with 2 gigs of DDR PC-3200 RAM, P4 3Ghz 800FSB, 120 gig Serial ATA HD, DVD-ROM, Plextor DVD+RW, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, XP Pro, and for how much? A little over $3000!! Almost $800 less and it'll run cirles around a Mac any day of the week! Now, granted, this is more of a gaming computer, but it would still work great as a workstation. Alienware does have some systems that run on dual 2.0 ghz Xeon's with workstation quality videocards...but I think those are more reserved for 3D animation work. The point is that if you're gonna buy an Apple for graphics design, video editing, etc....don't waste your money! Buy an upper-end PC and you'll save a buttload of money and you'll end up with something that save you both time and money in the long run! Screw Apple! Nuff said!
Jeff Whitfield jeffwhitfield@gmail.com "I can learn to resist anything but temptation..."
Complain about copy protected CDs.
Apple's AACs are no worse, technically, except Apple has *given* the user the easy ability to get around the copy protection. Burn to CD and rerip.
A copy protected CD? You need to apply whatever brand of magic is required to bypass the copy protection. Which I don't know, off the top of my head, for all the variations.
GPL Deconstructed
Ey, come on, we all now that e-machines is king in that field!
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
There was no need for your original comment, the guy wasn't being horrible or rude, he was just joking yet there always has to be one idiot like yourself who comes along and wants to get in the light by making someone else look foolish. And what a surprise! You used political correctness!
Get over yourself, it's easy to shout things from the shadows but at least you are a good example of someone who is just one big waste of space.
From now on post constructive information and stop trolling for the sake of trolling.
Robert
The USSR let us spend all the R&D for the technology leading up to the Shuttle, then took the info and made their own for far less.
As always, Apple is the outside R&D department for Microsoft.
Here's a little constructive posting to enlighten you as to the grandparent...
:)
:)
The post you objected to, line-by-line:
"Would you please not use the term special-needs when you mean retard."
That is, with emphasis, "would you please not use the term special-needs when you mean retard.".
Read carefully... now laugh
Mr Coward posted because your comment of "It's people like you who are so politically correct that your making EVERYONE'S life/society a f**ing nightmare to live in" misses the original point... quoting again from the post you flamed, "Political Correctness is very offensive to those of us that do not try to make ourselves feel better by assigning kinder, gentler words to things while doing nothing about them."
See? Reading posts saves arguments
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" whilst looking for a rock
Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.
C:\Documents and Settings\Dave>su
"I'm sorry Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that."
C:\Documents and Settings\Dave>
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
Ford owns Land Rover after BMW ditched the Rover group. Vickers, who own Rolls-Royce aeroengines, owns the RR name and they licence it to BMW for cars. VW bought the RR factory but were outsmarted by BMW on the licensing aspect and they were left with the Bentley name and -$$$.
--
Reverse outsourcing: it's the future
I agree, the original poster was being mean. Glad we cleared that up :) Have a nice day.
Still, it looks a hell of a lot like the default OS X desktop image. Their choice to use that particular desktop image, esp. in conjunction with the iMac rip-off, is I am sure not an accident.
"He'd be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once." - Steve Jobs on Bill Gates
I've now seen two different pictures of the Athens, one shows XP's Crystal while the other does have a closer resemblence to the Aqua desktop picture, it's not a copy but there are definite similarities.
2. And a wheel. And they're all useful. And, no, I don't need to use keys with my mouse.
Get with it! OSX has been out for...sheesh...5 years now.
It's been interesting to see it since the beginning, and I still have a web server running on the original code. It has never crashed in 5 years. That's great uptime!
So you never had to do a discontinuous selection (of files, say)?
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
The most hyped Longhorn feature is Windows Future Storage - a revolutionary file system with built-in database facility (based on MS SQL Server) like the beloved BFS. But after years of typical MS brouhaha, now we are told that it's nothing more than a Windows service.
Apple innovates and delivers, while MS copies and hypes. Longhorn has nothing new or better than what has been available on Mac OS X since a year or two ago, and 2005 is just too far away. For me, the future OS is Mac OS X 10.3 to be announced next month.
All right...you are smarter than I am.
Then again, I need to use a keyboard to do that in windoze as well...
actually, you have to use defaults write com.apple.safari IncludeDebugMenu 1 -- note the capitalization... it is important. but thanks for the tip!
The only ``intuitive'' interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
No, it's just redundant.
Shame on Google.
Heh, I've got 4 + a wheel. 14 buttons if you count my Claw (www.claw.com.au).
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
Having worked at NeXT I was fortunate enough to secure a copy of the MECCA Project which I will tell you is still LIGHTYEARS Ahead of MacOS X's UI.
When I see OS X or should we say OS XI introduce something called a "TABBED DOCKING SHELF" where every item is truly an reusable Object that can be easily drag n' dropped into any document window then I will be even more happy.
OS X is a rollback to what it should be but on purpose. Thanks to Steve's intelligence and learning from the past with NeXT, Apple will introduce the next series of changes the operating system world will enjoy, along with continuing to refine offering others have introduced and do it better.
A world, free...
Actually a patch exists for Word that would fix the problem as well.
.DOC appears from a business-associate that you would have thought your Word95 could open, but couldn't. Imagine if someone mailed you a .txt file and you couldn't open it.
(a) The point is that Word97 would save it into a file with the exact same extension that the previous version cannot use, with no warning. Consider it in the context of a world where Word97 had only just appeared, and that you were happily using your not-so-cheap Office95, and then all of a sudden this
(b) Microsoft only released the importer a significant amount of time after Word97's release. (I personally feel this is evidence that they intentionally made the file-formats incompatible to drive sales, but that's just me). If I recall correctly, more than a year. It's not very useful to be dying of a disease that will kill you in 6 months to know that a cure will arrive in 1 year.
What???
As you've said, it _is_ a UNIX machine and you've got access to all of the best *NIX dev tools PLUS apple's incredible Cocoa dev framework and associated tools. Get on board w/ the OS X Dev Tools!
blakespot
-- Heisenberg may have slept here.
iPod Hacks.com
When ever I read WIN vs. Mac arguments, it is always the same. It always appears the PC users argue from the "only standpoint". M$ is the only company that should exist in the computer world. Anything other than M$ is not worthy, unproductive, basically kids play. Really sad. Yet, PC people argue claiming to have the best thing in the world. Then why argue with us low-end, MAC people. Use your WIN boxes and be happy. Realistically, they argue out of knowledge that their boxes are cheap, poorly designed, and spend thousands of dollars to claim the top. All these years, it is believed that anyone not using WIN with Office, can't possible be productive, and those labors are a waste of time. Year after year millions of people are productive on MACs, get important things done. I ask. when does the argument end? If you prefer WIN, then use it and stop projecting it's inadequacies on MAC users. Mac OSX nor WIN XP are perfect, nor will they ever be. Facts are facts and preferences are opinions. Everyone knows that M$ has copied Apple, not rocket science, my 11 old nephew figured that out. Just use what you use, and end it. I prefer MAC, to me it is a robust OS, mature, and reliable. This does not mean I hate WIN XP, i just prefer not to use it. It is like holding the big crayon in kindergarten, made for people with limited computer skills, prompting for reassurance, adding steps to simple computer actions. I am an advanced user who enjoys the maturity nature of MAC OSX. WIN XP or Longhorn will never match that of MAC, simply because it is not UNIX. That is the problem with WIN, its technology outgrows the computer user needs, hence all the recent versions of WIN. In short, be happy with what you use. Both get the job done. If you have limited computer skills and a small budget, fine, get a Dell for 699. For advanced users, who will quickly outgrow WIN XP, you better off with a MAC. Just my opinion. In the end, it is yours as well. Stop the WIN vs MAC argument.