Mozilla's Joy Of Naming

An anonymous reader writes "Thought the Firebird naming conflict was over? Think again! (If you thought, "What naming conflict?", go to the back of the class and read Slashdot's, previous coverage.) MozillaZine has got an exclusive interview with Christopher Blizzard, mozilla.org staff member, Red Hat employee and author of the Mozilla branding strategy. It's one the first official statements from mozilla.org (Mitchell Baker published a letter that she sent to the Firebird database project admins a few days ago). As well as the interview, MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project (who still haven't adequately explained how it was different when they picked the same name as the older Firebird BBS). Compare and contrast with MozillaZine's interview of Ann Harrison of the Firebird database project."

Comments

What must have gone through the FirebirdSQL minds

[jbellis]

"Sweet! FREE PUBLICITY!"

I mean, not as popular as mysql, not as advanced as postgresql... they didn't have a whole lot going for them before this came up. :)

bad for the community

[Ashish Kulkarni]

Such a conflict is bad for the image of the open source community. Sadly, it has reached the stage where no one can back down because of bruised egos...And hence it'll be settled (if ever) after a lot of shenanigans.

Re:bad for the community

[smcn]

Huh? There's nothing to be settled, this should be a dead issue. As soon as the first version of "Mozilla Browser" is released people will forget that it's codenamed "Firebird". How many people refer to the current Mozilla suite as "SeaMonkey"?

Re:bad for the community

[mattrope]

Actually, the FirebirdSQL could back down pretty easily now. They gained an enormous boost to name recognition simply by raising this issue in the first place -- before this all started they weren't nearly as well known as the "big" open source databases (MySQL and postgres). Now so much information has been posted on Slashdot and other news sites about this that pretty much any geek who knows how to use a database has probably heard of them. If they back down now, they keep the name recognition. They've won no matter how it turns out.

Aren't people bored of this yet?

[Trillan]

I'm sure it is greatly interesting to those involved, but to me this is rapidly approaching tabloid material...

Nothing's going to change. Nobody's going to back down. Further, it doesn't really matter.

Re:Aren't people bored of this yet?

[Drakonian]

Yeah let's talk about something more interesting. Like when is 0.6 coming out?

Re:Aren't people bored of this yet?

[Bluesman]

0.6 of Firebird the browser or Firebird the database?!?!?!

Oh my god I'm so confused!!

Blizzard Entertainment charges Chris Blizzard

[Anonymous Coward]

In a shocking turn of events, Blizzard Entertainment, maker of popular game franchises Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo, is charging Christoper Blizzard with trademark and DMCA violations. "Mr. Blizzard and his family were not authorized to use that last name" said a Blizzard executive who wished to remain anonymous. "We're suggesting he change his name to Christopher Snow, or Christopher Storm, something that won't confuse people."

Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Surak]

Isn't this just going to cause confusion? Many people currently refer to the browser component of the 'Mozilla Application Suite' as the 'Mozilla browser' and changing the name of Firebird to 'Mozilla Browser' will just confuse things even worse than they already are.

People tend to think Mozilla='Mozilla Application Suite' and they tend to think of Phoenix/Firebird/Mozilla Browser/whatever-they're-calling-themselves-this-w eek as a separate application.

I'm confused just talking about it.

as

Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Medievalist]

I think you got it right, actually.

As I understand it, Phoenix was just the browser heartwood split out of the Mozilla suite, and thus it really always was "the Mozilla Browser"; Netscape's "Navigator" component but without the AOL/Netscape bloat and advertising... sounds good, doesn't it?

The Mozilla custom install in the current suite calls the browser piece navigator, incidentally (At least in 1.3.1 it does). But a phoenix/firebird install gives you an even leaner, faster Mozilla browser than a custom Mozilla install that includes only navigator.

I applaud the Phoenix, er, Firebird, er, Mozilla browser team's initiative to properly modularize the web browsing code and chop out the unneeded IRC client, Email client, usenet agent, etc. etc. etc. all of which deserve their own software (that I can choose NOT to run!).

Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Doc Hopper]

The quick sum-up on naming:

• Until the 1.4 final release, the lightweight browser and mail components are referred to, respectively, as "Mozilla Firebird" and "Mozilla Thunderbird"
• Post-1.4 release, the lightweight components will become the mainstream browser and mail components, referred to as "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla Mail".

The gal getting all worked up about naming is kind of barking up the wrong tree. Yeah, that's the project's name for the time being. However, Firebird will fall out of regular use here within the next few months...

Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Jugalator]

The layout engine was first called Raptor, but they later came up with the Gecko code name to include Raptor (that was later changed to NGLayout) and XPFE. Seamonkey is the code name of the Mozilla Application Suite that includes the NGLayout/Gecko engine and is built using the XPCOM architecture. A new project was later started to streamline the browser component: The code name was Phoenix that was changed to Firebird that was clarified to really be Mozilla Firebird that was later simply changed to be Mozilla Browser. Unless you meant the codename. That's Firedbird. Or perhaps it's Mozilla Firebird. Now, the Mozilla Team also started the Minotaur... Sorry, the Thunderbird project. But that's just its fancy code name, chosen to match Firebird. Both has bird and are cars. Pretty nifty, eh. Oh, and it's really called Mozilla Mail. I mean... The actual product name.

Cheese and rice

[Anonymous Coward]

God it's disgusting how far we've devolved into this stupid little legalistic society where everybody is suing everybody else for the dumbest reasons. Oh yeah, like I'm going to confuse a Web browser with some old crappy database that nobody ever uses or an ugly-looking monstrosity Pontiac targeted at middle-aged bald men who want a car that "looks fast." Hello. It's just a name. Who cares?

You know, if people would put as much effort into technological innovation and development as they do into suing each other, who knows how far along technology might be right now? We're far too infatuated with lawsuits and lawyers and multi-million dollar settlements and not focused on actually making things work. Sad, really.

Let google decide!

[girish]

I think they should just let google decide:

Searched the web for firebird +database. Results 1 - 10 of about 35,000. Search took 0.06 seconds.

Searched the web for firebird +mozilla. Results 1 - 10 of about 9,380. Search took 0.11 seconds.

Heres an Idea

[KingKire64]

Since these name (Firebird, Thunderbird, etc.) are only codenames from what i understand, why not drop the codenames and use the names that the final product is going to go buy: Mozilla Browser project and Mozilla Email project. Its impossible to recomend anyone to use a great product if the name changes twice a month!

My 2 cents

Re:Heres an Idea

[MyHair]

Well for one because you can't buy Mozilla.

Psst. I'll sell you a Mozilla. Email me.

Soon to be over

[ergonal]

Looking at the email sent to the firebird db guys, it seems the mozilla team are going to change firebird's name to "Mozilla Browser" in the next release cycle (1.5), so hopefully the whole hype of this saga will come to a close in a few months:

Nevertheless, we do intend to change the name so that the browser now known as "Mozilla Firebird Browser" becomes the "Mozilla Browser."

Ah hell....

[Jack William Bell]

Just call it 'Mozilla 2.0' and call it good.

There's no rule that says you have to add features with every release.

Names.

[Schezar]

At my college, RIT, there have been changes to the names of things in the recent past. "Physical Plant," our janitorial service, became "FMS." A bunch of apartments called "Capstones" are now called "University Commons."

You know what? Everyone calls them "Physical Plant" and "Capstone."

Everyone I know still calls it "Phoenix." I still do.

Easy name change.

[twocents]

Mozilla should just use 'Firebird Trans Am' instead.
Then we would all think of Burt Reynolds when searching our favorite web pages. And, it would go well next to my Camino.

Re:Links

[hendridm]

> Argh! There are so many links in that submission

It's a new load-balancing scheme on Slashdot that attempts to spread out the Slashdot effect to multiple victi^H^H^H^H^Hservers.

Thoughts

[Otter]

MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project

You know, one hears all sorts of complaints about media bias -- too leftist, too rightist -- but I never thought I'd hear "overwealmingly [sic] biased in favor of Firebird".

At any rate, how hard is it to pick a new freaking name? Like there's a shortage of mystical animals? Start up a game of Angband and charge downwards until you hit a good-sounding creature. I'd suggest a high-elf warrior for maximimum speed of descent. Just watch out for hounds, and that annoying family of dwarves that resists everything and touches to disenchant!

use nonsense names

[MikeFM]

My general approach when looking for a name is to Google all possibilities until I find one that returns 0 hits. If it isn't in Google then it doesn't exist - so is safe to use. Until I wrote this message 'Phyerburd' would have been an example. It's also interesting in that then any time you searh for that word you can be pretty sure that most the hits in Google relate to your use of the word. An easy indicator to watch your growth by.

Re:How ridiculous is this

[dpete4552]

First they choose the name Phoenix, which is kind of an inside joke if you know what a Phoenix is. That unexpectedly gets challenged legitimately by the Phoenix BIOS folks (as they were implimenting a BROWSER with the same name, obviously there would be confusion). So they change it to Firebird, something that is currently being used by countless other products, including those that were started before FirebirdSQL was created (e.g. FirebirdBBS). Since it is related to the Phoenix name, they choose that. Not being particularly picky as it is just the codename for the browser component, which will not even be widely used after it is integrated into the main product (as Seamonkey is not). Because the FirebirdSQL developers decided to exploit an opportunity for free publicity that is an indication that Mozilla is 'rapidly deteriorating into a farce"? I don't think I see the logic in that conclusion.

How's this for an adequate explanation?

[wuice]

When the Firebird database chose the name for its project, the people from the similarly named Firebird BBS did not complain or object.

When the Firebird browser project took its name, people from the Firebird database project did complain. Argue the case either way, but that is the difference. It's not rocket science.

Re:I still know a good name...

[outsider007]

they could always call it flamebird, which will probably be more appropriate in the end.

Re:Fuck The Moz Team

[dpete4552]

So let me get this straight: It is okay for the FirebirdSQL team to pick the same name as was chosen by the Firebird BBS developers, but it is 'unprofessional' and 'sploiled' of the Mozilla project to choose the name Firebird because the Firebird SQL project had choosen it first? Gotta love that logic...

Re:What must have gone through the FirebirdSQL min

[Unordained]

yeah, it's publicity. in fact, ann -did- say it was publicity: because they figured this had happened by accident, because, as you pointed out, they're not popular ... and no-one would be careful not to name their project 'firebird'.

however, as to the postgresql part ... i'd like to see your qualification of that. i've come across talks by (of all people) microsoft, where interbase/firebird (same thing, except firebird is open-source, free, and not stinky) is listed right along with oracle, db2, sybase, etc. (and you won't find any mention of mysql or postgresql there.)

interbase has been around for, what ... fifteen years? a little more? it's quite full-featured, growing constantly, and currently undergoing a C to C++ conversion so adding features will be even faster in the near future.

if it hadn't been for this stink over naming, firebird would have stood a good chance of publicizing their milestone releases (1.5 and 2.0) through slashdot. in fact, there might have been a lot more people picking it up and saying "hey, cool!" ... but on slashdot, everyone uses a browser. and if they code ... they're quite likely to have just picked up "php and mysql" at their local bookstore, and never looked for a -real- database. (isn't it sad that, even as good as postgresql is, and -known-, people still favor mysql? geeks, of all people, should know when they see a hack-job.) so instead, from now on, with the slashdot crowd, firebird will be known as "that evil database project that tried to keep mozilla from using its name!" ...

maybe interbase stands a chance (not really -- all the original coders who made interbase possible ... work on firebird now. you can thank ann and jim for the work that brought you a fully-capable database without the bloat of oracle.)

and yes, i -am- proud to use firebird in a production environment. it's fast, it's solid, and it does everything (almost -- i've got a few feature requests in) i want it to do. check it out! (and call it whatever you like!)

Re:Shame

[Down8]

Lost respect for Mozilla's leadership?! I didn't see mozilla.org leading a spam campaign.

99% of users don't call it "Mozilla Firebird"

Exactly, just like they don't call it Mozilla SeaMonkey, so the db people shouldn't trip. In fact, if they hadn't started this mess (yes, they started it), the Firebird name would have barely seen the light of day.

It's not like Mozilla.org invested in a million-dollar ad campaign with the name Firebird.

And neither did FirebirdSQL, so that is not only a non-sequitor, but is in defense of Mozilla.org.

this kind of dispute is bad for the community, and it reflects very poorly on all involved with the Mozilla side of things.

Apparently FirebirdSQL is rubber and Mozilla.org is glue, since everything bounces off the db and sticks to the browser.

-bZj

I just don't get this

[CleverNickName]

Okay.

I still don't understand this.

Why is this such a big deal? There can't be a browser and a database with the same name?

Is this some sort of intellectual property argument? Doesn't this sort of go against the "spirit" of the OS community?

Re:I just don't get this

[His name cannot be s]

No kidding. sheesh.

It's not like one dilutes the other. They are not competing products. Even remotely. One does not affect the other.

Heck, Just plugging in Firebird on Google, the top 10 hits are :

3- related to Firebird Database
1- Related to the Pontiac Firebird (!)
2- Firebird Raceway
1- book company
1- design company
1- gem company
1- arts & music.

Hey, the browser didn't even make top 10!

So, maybe they(Database boneheads) should go after the racetrack, pontiac, the book company, design company, gem company, and the a&m company too.

This is just so silly.

Can you give this a rest so they can sort it out?

[ManxStef]

Oh my God, I can't believe this is still being posted to Slashdot, can people not see how detrimental posting articles like this is to the resolution of this issue on both sides?

Condensed version of events:

• Mozilla is forced to change the name of their Phoenix browser due to threat of litigation from Phoenix BIOS corp.
• Mozilla devs decide amongst themselves, with very little (if any) public consultation, to change the name to Firebird. They ARE aware of the Firebird database project, but collectively (between about ten to twenty of them) "can't see any naming conflict", and can't be arsed to even e-mail any of the Firebird database project admins to ask if it'd piss them off.
• Asa announces on MozillaZine that Mozilla's changed its name to Firebird(TM), and this is final, full stop, quit your whining bitches, we've asked our lawyers and they say it's fine.
• Public dismay from the Firebird database admins, developers and users, who feel that the Mozilla organisation has just "pissed on their chips", and insulted them by taking their name (read Ann Harrison's interview and you may understand why they acted the way they did, wrong as it was) - regardless of whether they actually have a claim to trademark "Firebird" or not.
• Firebird database admins post a "rallying call" on their website, along with far too many Mozilla developer e-mail addresses. Stupid move.
• Firebird DB devs and users e-mail these addresses, some maybe with the misguided opinion that this'll help, followed by a whole deluge of idiots and trolls (who probably don't use either projects' software) who start mailbombing these addresses.
• Story gets posted to Slashdot (with author bias towards Mozilla as the author probably likes Moz/Phoenix but hasn't heard of Firebird), fanning the flames further and resulting in tons more mailbombing to both sides.
• Both sides get really pissed off with each other due to the mailbombings. Mozilla ppl dig their heels in because of ridiculous amounts of spam they've been getting, and the Firebird database people are taken aback by the scale of the response and the (really) stupid mistake of posting all the Moz team's addresses, while still feeling helpless that a big project's just stomped on them pretty firmly.
• MozillaZine continue their biased reporting (fair enough, they are MOZILLAZine after all!), and Moz team members "shut the f*ck up" posts in response to any wails of dismay forum posts from Firebird DB admins make sure that this continues for weeks. Lots of users without any knowledge of either project chip in with tons of stupid names, lots of IANAL but I'm with whichever side I'm biased towards, even more "but Firebird stole it from the Firebird car so they can STFU" posts, plenty of "not going to be confusing" and "Mozilla you b*st*rds, give the name back - if Microsoft did this we'd all go round and kick them in the nuts!" and general ranting ensues.
• Several more online news sites post up stories, practically all with extreme bias one way or the other.
• MozillaZine's forums get hammered, MySQL falls over - ironic ;) Their bandwith bills have gone sky-high so the forums stay down. Lots of complaints from MozillaZine people blaming this on the Firebird database camp, yet more friction.
• A non-biased mediator (Jonathan Walther, a contributor to Debian) gets briefly involved to try and find some common ground between the warring parties, resulting in a very frank and honest interview with Ann Harrison posted up on MozillaZine. Other than this Jonathan does really play much of a part, but he makes for a good character to slot into any news reporting that goes on. More ranting on both sides.
• LOTS more ranting on both sides.
• Mozilla.org responds by posting the Mozilla Firebird Branding Strategy, which clarifies that the new name is "Mozilla Firebird" NOT "Firebird(TM)", and that it's just a codename like SeaMonkey is a codename

We will call it MOZILLA after 1.4!

[MarcQuadra]

Remember, after 1.4 Firebird will be the standard 'browser' for Mozilla. The all-encompassing front-end you know and hate will fade away and separate apps for each purpose (browser, mail, chat, layout, text editing, etc.) will be standard. They'll all compile from the same place and run off a core shared set of library files, but the binaries WILL be separate. I think only the bugzilla/development community will call it 'firebird' because we'll be too busy calling it 'Mozilla.'

Right now Phoenix users say Phoenix to DIFFERENTIATE from normal XPFE Mozilla users, but after we're standardized on Firebird that will fade away. We will evolve.