Mozilla's Joy Of Naming

An anonymous reader writes "Thought the Firebird naming conflict was over? Think again! (If you thought, "What naming conflict?", go to the back of the class and read Slashdot's, previous coverage.) MozillaZine has got an exclusive interview with Christopher Blizzard, mozilla.org staff member, Red Hat employee and author of the Mozilla branding strategy. It's one the first official statements from mozilla.org (Mitchell Baker published a letter that she sent to the Firebird database project admins a few days ago). As well as the interview, MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project (who still haven't adequately explained how it was different when they picked the same name as the older Firebird BBS). Compare and contrast with MozillaZine's interview of Ann Harrison of the Firebird database project."

Comments

What must have gone through the FirebirdSQL minds

[jbellis]

"Sweet! FREE PUBLICITY!"

I mean, not as popular as mysql, not as advanced as postgresql... they didn't have a whole lot going for them before this came up. :)

bad for the community

[Ashish Kulkarni]

Such a conflict is bad for the image of the open source community. Sadly, it has reached the stage where no one can back down because of bruised egos...And hence it'll be settled (if ever) after a lot of shenanigans.

Re:bad for the community

[Fizzlewhiff]

And hence it'll be settled (if ever) after a lot of shenanigans.

Great, I'll get my broom!

Re:bad for the community

[smcn]

Huh? There's nothing to be settled, this should be a dead issue. As soon as the first version of "Mozilla Browser" is released people will forget that it's codenamed "Firebird". How many people refer to the current Mozilla suite as "SeaMonkey"?

Re:bad for the community

[mattrope]

Actually, the FirebirdSQL could back down pretty easily now. They gained an enormous boost to name recognition simply by raising this issue in the first place -- before this all started they weren't nearly as well known as the "big" open source databases (MySQL and postgres). Now so much information has been posted on Slashdot and other news sites about this that pretty much any geek who knows how to use a database has probably heard of them. If they back down now, they keep the name recognition. They've won no matter how it turns out.

Re:bad for the community

[His name cannot be s]

How many people refer to the current Mozilla suite as "SeaMonkey"?

Few. Certainly less than the number of people who refer to the Netscape 4.x browsers as "A hot, steaming pile of shit" . :p

Re:bad for the community

[Bilestoad]

Why were the developers so keen to name their products after white trash transportation? Do they expect to see browsers standing on bricks in the front yards of Mississippi trailer home lots? Do they expect most users to have mulletts and warrants for unpaid alimony? Is there a new fishin' plugin?

This really is a mind-bogling question that must be answered.

Aren't people bored of this yet?

[Trillan]

I'm sure it is greatly interesting to those involved, but to me this is rapidly approaching tabloid material...

Nothing's going to change. Nobody's going to back down. Further, it doesn't really matter.

Re:Aren't people bored of this yet?

[Drakonian]

Yeah let's talk about something more interesting. Like when is 0.6 coming out?

Re:Aren't people bored of this yet?

[Bluesman]

0.6 of Firebird the browser or Firebird the database?!?!?!

Oh my god I'm so confused!!

Blizzard Entertainment charges Chris Blizzard

[Anonymous Coward]

In a shocking turn of events, Blizzard Entertainment, maker of popular game franchises Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo, is charging Christoper Blizzard with trademark and DMCA violations. "Mr. Blizzard and his family were not authorized to use that last name" said a Blizzard executive who wished to remain anonymous. "We're suggesting he change his name to Christopher Snow, or Christopher Storm, something that won't confuse people."

Monty python?

[Bold Marauder]

Is anyone else reminded of the radical group from "A life of brian", or is it just me?

Pffffft.

[Dthoma]

They should name these browsers after progressive rock songs. That'd give them a lot of geek cred (in my mind anyway). Come on, what could be cooler than using a browser called "Echoes"?

Re:I still know a good name...

[spumoni_fettuccini]

bit confusing that, mind if we call you Bruce?

Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Surak]

Isn't this just going to cause confusion? Many people currently refer to the browser component of the 'Mozilla Application Suite' as the 'Mozilla browser' and changing the name of Firebird to 'Mozilla Browser' will just confuse things even worse than they already are.

People tend to think Mozilla='Mozilla Application Suite' and they tend to think of Phoenix/Firebird/Mozilla Browser/whatever-they're-calling-themselves-this-w eek as a separate application.

I'm confused just talking about it.

as

Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Obiwan Kenobi]

Isn't this just going to cause confusion?

Of course it is! But we're not dealing with common sense here, we're dealing with egos.

And egos and common sense are like blood and space ships.

[/joke]

Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Medievalist]

I think you got it right, actually.

As I understand it, Phoenix was just the browser heartwood split out of the Mozilla suite, and thus it really always was "the Mozilla Browser"; Netscape's "Navigator" component but without the AOL/Netscape bloat and advertising... sounds good, doesn't it?

The Mozilla custom install in the current suite calls the browser piece navigator, incidentally (At least in 1.3.1 it does). But a phoenix/firebird install gives you an even leaner, faster Mozilla browser than a custom Mozilla install that includes only navigator.

I applaud the Phoenix, er, Firebird, er, Mozilla browser team's initiative to properly modularize the web browsing code and chop out the unneeded IRC client, Email client, usenet agent, etc. etc. etc. all of which deserve their own software (that I can choose NOT to run!).

Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Doc Hopper]

The quick sum-up on naming:

• Until the 1.4 final release, the lightweight browser and mail components are referred to, respectively, as "Mozilla Firebird" and "Mozilla Thunderbird"
• Post-1.4 release, the lightweight components will become the mainstream browser and mail components, referred to as "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla Mail".

The gal getting all worked up about naming is kind of barking up the wrong tree. Yeah, that's the project's name for the time being. However, Firebird will fall out of regular use here within the next few months...

Re:Firebird - Mozilla Browser confusion

[Jugalator]

The layout engine was first called Raptor, but they later came up with the Gecko code name to include Raptor (that was later changed to NGLayout) and XPFE. Seamonkey is the code name of the Mozilla Application Suite that includes the NGLayout/Gecko engine and is built using the XPCOM architecture. A new project was later started to streamline the browser component: The code name was Phoenix that was changed to Firebird that was clarified to really be Mozilla Firebird that was later simply changed to be Mozilla Browser. Unless you meant the codename. That's Firedbird. Or perhaps it's Mozilla Firebird. Now, the Mozilla Team also started the Minotaur... Sorry, the Thunderbird project. But that's just its fancy code name, chosen to match Firebird. Both has bird and are cars. Pretty nifty, eh. Oh, and it's really called Mozilla Mail. I mean... The actual product name.

Cheese and rice

[Anonymous Coward]

God it's disgusting how far we've devolved into this stupid little legalistic society where everybody is suing everybody else for the dumbest reasons. Oh yeah, like I'm going to confuse a Web browser with some old crappy database that nobody ever uses or an ugly-looking monstrosity Pontiac targeted at middle-aged bald men who want a car that "looks fast." Hello. It's just a name. Who cares?

You know, if people would put as much effort into technological innovation and development as they do into suing each other, who knows how far along technology might be right now? We're far too infatuated with lawsuits and lawyers and multi-million dollar settlements and not focused on actually making things work. Sad, really.

Re:Cheese and rice

[Timesprout]

Actually its not just a name. For many companies its a brand which they invest heavily in to create and promote. For many its not something they are going to let go lightly

Re:Cheese and rice

[ratamacue]

it's disgusting how far we've devolved into this stupid little legalistic society where everybody is suing everybody else for the dumbest reasons

I agree completely. Want to know what's responsible for the transformation? It's not the lawyers. It's not the corporations. And it sure as hell ain't "the people".

The reason why society has widely adopted back-stabbing as the road to success -- as opposed to personal responsibility and honest achievement -- is the nanny state.

In general, the bigger and more powerful government becomes, the more the average ignorant joe thinks he is entitled to, and the less he thinks he has to work for it. Government is so entangled in nearly every aspect of the average joe's life that he thinks government is the answer to any concievable problem that crops up. And this is no mistake. Government is a business, and like any business, one of the major goals is to lock your "clients" into your particular service. More government breeds more problems, and more problems breed more government.

It's a win-win situation for those in power (government), and for the successful backstabbers as well, and of course for the lawyers. But what about those who just want to live their lives in peace, achieving through honest means, accepting total responsibility for themselves -- and ONLY themselves? We're screwed. The only possible way to reverse the transformation is to reduce the size of government, an objective which directly conflicts with the objectives of those in power.

Re:Cheese and rice

[GlassHeart]

The reason why society has widely adopted back-stabbing as the road to success -- as opposed to personal responsibility and honest achievement -- is the nanny state.

I disagree. Many other countries have even "bigger" governments, yet America's litigious culture is nearly unique. I think the problem is not that people sue, but that plaintiffs are awarded ridiculous sums that are disproportionate to their losses. This is virtually an encouragement to gamble in the legal system.

In my ideal world, when you win you are awarded with what you lost (job, wages, property, etc). If the defendants needs further punishment, then they can be fined by the government, but the money doesn't go to the plaintiff.

For example, if the RIAA sues a student for pirating 20 albums and wins, the student should pay approximately the street price of those 20 albums to the RIAA. The student is additionally fined an appropriate amount (which would differ depending on how much money you actually have) by the government. If the RIAA sues a company that cranked out one thousand illegal copies of their CDs, then they are paid as if they sold that thousand. The company should then be fined a much greater amount than the student, in proportion to their violation, their ability to pay, and perhaps their history of offenses.

In other words, payment for the damages are compensatory, while the fine is punitive and intended to correct the illegal behavior. The fact that the criminal should be punished doesn't mean that the victim should be rewarded beyond reason.

Finally, judges need to do more judging. Frivolous cases must be dismissed promptly, and if they weren't, the loser may be liable for the legal expenses of the winner.

When you put that all together, you still can sue, but only when you're likely to win, and either way you're not going to hit the jackpot and get rich beyond imagination. I think that will bring most of the sanity you want.

Re:Cheese and rice

[Some Dumbass...]

It's a win-win situation for those in power (government), and for the successful backstabbers as well, and of course for the lawyers. But what about those who just want to live their lives in peace, achieving through honest means, accepting total responsibility for themselves -- and ONLY themselves? We're screwed.

Yes, but without that government keeping the backstabbers in check, you'd be ever more screwed. All this stuff about "personal responsibility" sounds great until you realize that "backstabbers" are going to ignore it. That's one of the basic flaws in these Libertarian arguments. I'd rather not go back to the days where any food or medicine I buy could easily be tainted or ineffective (while lining some backstabber's pockets), thank you very much.

Another basic flaw is that nobody lives in a vacuum. As my example suggests, we need to be able to depend on other people for certain things. If nothing else, people need other people (e.g. doctors) to be responsible for _them_ sometimes. Yet presumably that "responsible only for one's self" law applies to everyone equally. Needless to say, the Libertarian system is flawed at a basic logical level, unless allowing society to devolve to sub-caveman levels is acceptable.

What it boils down to is this. If you literally get rid of all the government control over peoples' lives, that's called anarchy. That system won't work, as I've argued above. That's "literal" Libertarianism, and it is a fatally flawed system.

A more "practical" Libertarian presumably just wants some specific laws to go away, rather than the whole system of government. I assume that most of them are in this category, whether or not they admit it. The funny thing is, these laws are presumably designed to help someone (can you imagine a law which literally helps nobody?) Thus, despite the beautific "everyone living in peace" talk, Libertarians are actually trying to backstab someone. They are trying to eliminate laws which help others for their own benefit. Why don't they just be honest about that? Why not just admit what exactly they want, so that we can discuss the costs and benefits of those particular changes?

See, that's the problem I have with "practical" Libertarianism. It's a very, very vague philosophy. Yes, people want less laws, but which ones? Not all of them, of course! So which? The discussion rarely seems to get past that point, most likely because the Libertarian ends up sounding bad.

Let google decide!

[girish]

I think they should just let google decide:

Searched the web for firebird +database. Results 1 - 10 of about 35,000. Search took 0.06 seconds.

Searched the web for firebird +mozilla. Results 1 - 10 of about 9,380. Search took 0.11 seconds.

I've got a solution

[Anonymous Coward]

The Firebird database people should rename their project Phoenix.

Heres an Idea

[KingKire64]

Since these name (Firebird, Thunderbird, etc.) are only codenames from what i understand, why not drop the codenames and use the names that the final product is going to go buy: Mozilla Browser project and Mozilla Email project. Its impossible to recomend anyone to use a great product if the name changes twice a month!

My 2 cents

Re:Heres an Idea

[billnapier]

why not drop the codenames and use the names that the final product is going to go buy

Codenames are very important. Especially when you have a marketing department that can't make up its mind on what to call things. It will be one thing one week and another thing the next week. And all the time the developers will still be calling it by its code name.

And you can't call it by release number because what the release number is isn't always decided until right before it ships (we have to jump to version 6.0 to keep up with microsoft!)

Re:Heres an Idea

[MyHair]

Well for one because you can't buy Mozilla.

Psst. I'll sell you a Mozilla. Email me.

Soon to be over

[ergonal]

Looking at the email sent to the firebird db guys, it seems the mozilla team are going to change firebird's name to "Mozilla Browser" in the next release cycle (1.5), so hopefully the whole hype of this saga will come to a close in a few months:

Nevertheless, we do intend to change the name so that the browser now known as "Mozilla Firebird Browser" becomes the "Mozilla Browser."

Ah hell....

[Jack William Bell]

Just call it 'Mozilla 2.0' and call it good.

There's no rule that says you have to add features with every release.

Names.

[Schezar]

At my college, RIT, there have been changes to the names of things in the recent past. "Physical Plant," our janitorial service, became "FMS." A bunch of apartments called "Capstones" are now called "University Commons."

You know what? Everyone calls them "Physical Plant" and "Capstone."

Everyone I know still calls it "Phoenix." I still do.

An idea

[Kyn]

Why doesn't Mozilla just codename it Project Trogdor? Yeah, it's more dragon-y than phoenix-y, but it's also hella cool.

And I'm doubting that the Brothers Chaps would say no if the Mozilla people asked them nicely. More publicity both ways.

"And all was laid to burnination..."

Easy name change.

[twocents]

Mozilla should just use 'Firebird Trans Am' instead.
Then we would all think of Burt Reynolds when searching our favorite web pages. And, it would go well next to my Camino.

Re:Links

[hendridm]

> Argh! There are so many links in that submission

It's a new load-balancing scheme on Slashdot that attempts to spread out the Slashdot effect to multiple victi^H^H^H^H^Hservers.

Thoughts

[Otter]

MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project

You know, one hears all sorts of complaints about media bias -- too leftist, too rightist -- but I never thought I'd hear "overwealmingly [sic] biased in favor of Firebird".

At any rate, how hard is it to pick a new freaking name? Like there's a shortage of mystical animals? Start up a game of Angband and charge downwards until you hit a good-sounding creature. I'd suggest a high-elf warrior for maximimum speed of descent. Just watch out for hounds, and that annoying family of dwarves that resists everything and touches to disenchant!

use nonsense names

[MikeFM]

My general approach when looking for a name is to Google all possibilities until I find one that returns 0 hits. If it isn't in Google then it doesn't exist - so is safe to use. Until I wrote this message 'Phyerburd' would have been an example. It's also interesting in that then any time you searh for that word you can be pretty sure that most the hits in Google relate to your use of the word. An easy indicator to watch your growth by.

Even better...

[juuri]

... since the browser is *so* much newer (years vs weeks) and it is quickly catching up in mindshare, obviously picking the name wasn't really a big conflict.

Re:What must have gone through the FirebirdSQL min

[Otter]

"Sweet! FREE PUBLICITY!"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ann Harrison explicitly say she was trying to milk this opportunity for free publicity?

Cats or Cars?

[ink]

Seeing that the Chimera project (Mozilla/Cocoa for OSX) had to change it's name to "Camino"; I would hazzard a guess that the Mozilla team is targeting gas-guzzling sports cars for new monikers, rather than fowl. Maybe they should name the next version of Mozilla Corvette?

Re:How ridiculous is this

[dpete4552]

First they choose the name Phoenix, which is kind of an inside joke if you know what a Phoenix is. That unexpectedly gets challenged legitimately by the Phoenix BIOS folks (as they were implimenting a BROWSER with the same name, obviously there would be confusion). So they change it to Firebird, something that is currently being used by countless other products, including those that were started before FirebirdSQL was created (e.g. FirebirdBBS). Since it is related to the Phoenix name, they choose that. Not being particularly picky as it is just the codename for the browser component, which will not even be widely used after it is integrated into the main product (as Seamonkey is not). Because the FirebirdSQL developers decided to exploit an opportunity for free publicity that is an indication that Mozilla is 'rapidly deteriorating into a farce"? I don't think I see the logic in that conclusion.

Here's what the cow thinks!

[Anonymous Coward]

_________________
/ Mozilla's shit! \
\ Use Konqueror! /
-----------------
\ ^__^
\ (oo)\_______
(__)\ )\/\
||----w |
|| ||

Re:Here's what the cow thinks!

[brittnee]

Some of us know the difference between bovine and ovine, Mr. "It looks like a sheep."... if you had paid attention in kindergarden, you might be able to tell the difference ;)

How's this for an adequate explanation?

[wuice]

When the Firebird database chose the name for its project, the people from the similarly named Firebird BBS did not complain or object.

When the Firebird browser project took its name, people from the Firebird database project did complain. Argue the case either way, but that is the difference. It's not rocket science.

Argumentum ad hominem, eh?

[Scotch Game]

Some people have accused mozilla.org of having an arrogant and dismissive attitude towards the Firebird database community. What is your response to these allegations?

That it's an excellent example of argumentum ad hominem.

Err ... That isn't the same thing as denying that you've been arrogant and dismissive, Mr. Blizzard. Only that, if you have, it's not relevant to the argument. So ... is that it? You've been arrogant and dismissive but so what, that's not the point? Your answer seems to have confirmed that allegation, if not only by its logical content, then also by its curt nature.

Re:Argumentum ad hominem, eh?

[c64k]

He's not denying it, he's saying that it's not the point, not relevant to the arguement at hand.

Which it's not.

So we've got some arrogance in the open source community? This is news to you?

We've also got irritating whiners. And a whole gamut inbetween of personalities. It's always been that way, it always will.

The only difference in this story is that tech media paid attention to it, because Mozilla is 'special.'

Re:I still know a good name...

[outsider007]

they could always call it flamebird, which will probably be more appropriate in the end.

one word: bugzilla

[Vitriolix]

there needs to be clear distinctions in bugzilla between the current mozilla browser and the future Mozilla Browser... hence the name Firebird (equevielent to Seamonkey now)

Generic Names

[LamerX]

Okay, Firebird is such a generic name. When are people going to just get with some common sense and realize that with a limited number of words in any language, some stuff is going to get reused. Especially things that are common, like Fire and Bird. When are people just going to get over it and realize that trademarks can be as bad as patents and copyright?

Re:Fuck The Moz Team

[dpete4552]

So let me get this straight: It is okay for the FirebirdSQL team to pick the same name as was chosen by the Firebird BBS developers, but it is 'unprofessional' and 'sploiled' of the Mozilla project to choose the name Firebird because the Firebird SQL project had choosen it first? Gotta love that logic...

Dear Namer

[Letter]

Dear Namer,

Here are my suggestions to replace "Firebird":

Trojan
Sheik
LifeStyles
Durex
Kameleon
Conf ide
Contempo
Kimono
Reality
Magnum

Stay protected,
Rupert

Re:That's It!

[Neon Spiral Injector]

I think I will too. :P

Here's a real name...

[nevermodded5]

"Nomad". You know, a wanderer. No, wait that's taken.

"FetchIt". As in go get it. Damn that's taken too.

"Carnivore". That's never had any bad press. And the icon looks like something out of Jurassic Park anyway.

"Charlie". Everybody knows a guy named Charlie, and they're usually good guys. Oh, wait, that damn conflict a few decades ago. Forget it.

Re:What must have gone through the FirebirdSQL min

[Unordained]

yeah, it's publicity. in fact, ann -did- say it was publicity: because they figured this had happened by accident, because, as you pointed out, they're not popular ... and no-one would be careful not to name their project 'firebird'.

however, as to the postgresql part ... i'd like to see your qualification of that. i've come across talks by (of all people) microsoft, where interbase/firebird (same thing, except firebird is open-source, free, and not stinky) is listed right along with oracle, db2, sybase, etc. (and you won't find any mention of mysql or postgresql there.)

interbase has been around for, what ... fifteen years? a little more? it's quite full-featured, growing constantly, and currently undergoing a C to C++ conversion so adding features will be even faster in the near future.

if it hadn't been for this stink over naming, firebird would have stood a good chance of publicizing their milestone releases (1.5 and 2.0) through slashdot. in fact, there might have been a lot more people picking it up and saying "hey, cool!" ... but on slashdot, everyone uses a browser. and if they code ... they're quite likely to have just picked up "php and mysql" at their local bookstore, and never looked for a -real- database. (isn't it sad that, even as good as postgresql is, and -known-, people still favor mysql? geeks, of all people, should know when they see a hack-job.) so instead, from now on, with the slashdot crowd, firebird will be known as "that evil database project that tried to keep mozilla from using its name!" ...

maybe interbase stands a chance (not really -- all the original coders who made interbase possible ... work on firebird now. you can thank ann and jim for the work that brought you a fully-capable database without the bloat of oracle.)

and yes, i -am- proud to use firebird in a production environment. it's fast, it's solid, and it does everything (almost -- i've got a few feature requests in) i want it to do. check it out! (and call it whatever you like!)

Re:BIOS Company more important than OS Community?

[(H)elix1]

First Mozilla.org changed the name from Phoenix to Firebird because Phoenix BIOS was annoyed (afraid someone could mistakenly buy a web browser instead of a BIOS chip).

Now, they realized that the name was already in use by another open source project but they have no intention to get back.

Phoenix BIOS actually created a web browser - thus, Phoenix Browser was a legitimate gripe by the Phoenix BIOS folks. There would have been confusion, followed by a lawsuit that Mozilla would lose.

Firebird was used by an open source DB project. While there was no legal issues - IE, no trademark dilution of the Firebird Database product, in spirit it was wrong to snag the name. When people talk of the open source 'firebird' project, their may be confusion. One of the hazards of using common words like windo ^H^H^H ^H (nah, not today) to describe your product.

Anyhow, what does it mean to me? Branding strategy? Meeting the minimum legal requirements? Put a sock in it. I've invested time debugging issues and just using the browser formally known as phoenix as it developed. I don't condone that attitude however, and I won't promote it or be attached to it in the future. I suspect it left a bad taste with others as well...

Re:Shame

[Down8]

Lost respect for Mozilla's leadership?! I didn't see mozilla.org leading a spam campaign.

99% of users don't call it "Mozilla Firebird"

Exactly, just like they don't call it Mozilla SeaMonkey, so the db people shouldn't trip. In fact, if they hadn't started this mess (yes, they started it), the Firebird name would have barely seen the light of day.

It's not like Mozilla.org invested in a million-dollar ad campaign with the name Firebird.

And neither did FirebirdSQL, so that is not only a non-sequitor, but is in defense of Mozilla.org.

this kind of dispute is bad for the community, and it reflects very poorly on all involved with the Mozilla side of things.

Apparently FirebirdSQL is rubber and Mozilla.org is glue, since everything bounces off the db and sticks to the browser.

-bZj

A point that has been missed so far

[Angst Badger]

You know, I hate to be the one to point this out, but "Firebird" is a damn stupid name for either a browser or a database, especially considering the implication that both products rose from the ashes of other products that were abandoned by their original developers when they ceased to be competitive.

As a database name, it's especially stupid. What's the phoenix symbolism here? "Hey, try our database! All your data will crash and burn periodically, but you'll be able to recover it." C'mon, even freaking IBM can come up with better marketing themes. At least when you hear the name of their product, DB2, you know it's a database.

The same argument could be applied to the browser, though. Or indeed to most browsers. If you're not already aware of the product, what do names like Firebird, Mozilla, and Opera mean to you? Nothing. Look at MS product names: Internet Explorer, Word, Publisher, Flight Simulator. Bigod, the product name tells you what the product is. (Of course, on the other hand, you have Excel, Access, and Bob.)

Instead of squabbling over an uninformative name that has an uninspiring thudding cadence and making the Open Source world look like a bunch of petty jerks, how about the Firebird people and the other Firebird people go back to their corners and choose new names as if their choice of names actually matters.

There's a precedent!

[dglo]

There's a perfectly good precedent for settling this sort of dispute.

Remember when Carl Sagan complained about the Apple project codenamed "Sagan"?

Why not change the codename to Butthead DB?

So what? There are two XForms projects as well.

[psgalbraith]

I've said this before...

W3C cames up with XForms - The Next Generation of Web Forms in 2002, but XForms - a GUI toolkit for X has existed for a long time (initially here).

I just don't get this

[CleverNickName]

Okay.

I still don't understand this.

Why is this such a big deal? There can't be a browser and a database with the same name?

Is this some sort of intellectual property argument? Doesn't this sort of go against the "spirit" of the OS community?

Re:I just don't get this

[His name cannot be s]

No kidding. sheesh.

It's not like one dilutes the other. They are not competing products. Even remotely. One does not affect the other.

Heck, Just plugging in Firebird on Google, the top 10 hits are :

3- related to Firebird Database
1- Related to the Pontiac Firebird (!)
2- Firebird Raceway
1- book company
1- design company
1- gem company
1- arts & music.

Hey, the browser didn't even make top 10!

So, maybe they(Database boneheads) should go after the racetrack, pontiac, the book company, design company, gem company, and the a&m company too.

This is just so silly.

Why didn't they just call it...

[chrisis]

Feenix?

= No fee, plus phonetically flipping the bird.

call it "The Internet"

[el_gregorio]

they ought to just call it "The Internet". there's so many clueless Joe Blow's out there that don't know the difference between the net and a browser as it is; they could totally confuse the hell out of them.

oh wait, i suppose Al Gore would file suit that they stole the name of his invention. oh well.

Can you give this a rest so they can sort it out?

[ManxStef]

Oh my God, I can't believe this is still being posted to Slashdot, can people not see how detrimental posting articles like this is to the resolution of this issue on both sides?

Condensed version of events:

• Mozilla is forced to change the name of their Phoenix browser due to threat of litigation from Phoenix BIOS corp.
• Mozilla devs decide amongst themselves, with very little (if any) public consultation, to change the name to Firebird. They ARE aware of the Firebird database project, but collectively (between about ten to twenty of them) "can't see any naming conflict", and can't be arsed to even e-mail any of the Firebird database project admins to ask if it'd piss them off.
• Asa announces on MozillaZine that Mozilla's changed its name to Firebird(TM), and this is final, full stop, quit your whining bitches, we've asked our lawyers and they say it's fine.
• Public dismay from the Firebird database admins, developers and users, who feel that the Mozilla organisation has just "pissed on their chips", and insulted them by taking their name (read Ann Harrison's interview and you may understand why they acted the way they did, wrong as it was) - regardless of whether they actually have a claim to trademark "Firebird" or not.
• Firebird database admins post a "rallying call" on their website, along with far too many Mozilla developer e-mail addresses. Stupid move.
• Firebird DB devs and users e-mail these addresses, some maybe with the misguided opinion that this'll help, followed by a whole deluge of idiots and trolls (who probably don't use either projects' software) who start mailbombing these addresses.
• Story gets posted to Slashdot (with author bias towards Mozilla as the author probably likes Moz/Phoenix but hasn't heard of Firebird), fanning the flames further and resulting in tons more mailbombing to both sides.
• Both sides get really pissed off with each other due to the mailbombings. Mozilla ppl dig their heels in because of ridiculous amounts of spam they've been getting, and the Firebird database people are taken aback by the scale of the response and the (really) stupid mistake of posting all the Moz team's addresses, while still feeling helpless that a big project's just stomped on them pretty firmly.
• MozillaZine continue their biased reporting (fair enough, they are MOZILLAZine after all!), and Moz team members "shut the f*ck up" posts in response to any wails of dismay forum posts from Firebird DB admins make sure that this continues for weeks. Lots of users without any knowledge of either project chip in with tons of stupid names, lots of IANAL but I'm with whichever side I'm biased towards, even more "but Firebird stole it from the Firebird car so they can STFU" posts, plenty of "not going to be confusing" and "Mozilla you b*st*rds, give the name back - if Microsoft did this we'd all go round and kick them in the nuts!" and general ranting ensues.
• Several more online news sites post up stories, practically all with extreme bias one way or the other.
• MozillaZine's forums get hammered, MySQL falls over - ironic ;) Their bandwith bills have gone sky-high so the forums stay down. Lots of complaints from MozillaZine people blaming this on the Firebird database camp, yet more friction.
• A non-biased mediator (Jonathan Walther, a contributor to Debian) gets briefly involved to try and find some common ground between the warring parties, resulting in a very frank and honest interview with Ann Harrison posted up on MozillaZine. Other than this Jonathan does really play much of a part, but he makes for a good character to slot into any news reporting that goes on. More ranting on both sides.
• LOTS more ranting on both sides.
• Mozilla.org responds by posting the Mozilla Firebird Branding Strategy, which clarifies that the new name is "Mozilla Firebird" NOT "Firebird(TM)", and that it's just a codename like SeaMonkey is a codename

A Lesson Learned

[suwain_2]

I think this should be a lesson for those releasing projects in the future. It used to be that a search for "Phoenix" on Google would turn up the Phoenix webpage as its first match. "Firebird" matches all sorts of stuff, but (last I checked), none of them were the web browser. Over time, this will hopefully change, but the point is that name changes after a project gets popular are a bad thing.

Obviously there wasn't much choice when PhoenixBIOS's lawyers got involved, but I really wish people could see that not everything in the world needs a unique name. When someone introduces themselves as Matt, I don't get confused and refuse to talk to them because of a name conflict. (Since it's also my name.) Similarly, if asked to trim the bushes, I don't show up at the White House with hedge trimmers.

Similarly, if someone asks "What browser do you use?", and I reply "Phoenix," they're not going to get confused and think I'm talking about my BIOS. (Nor will they think I've captured a bird and am using it.)

Again, I realize that the developers in this case really had no choice, but I think it's pretty sad when lawyers decide the people don't know the difference between a bird, a web browser, and a database.

I don't see the problem

[Flower]

There is no reason why you can't have Firebird dishwashing liquid and Firebird condoms and trademark a car as a Firebird. A browser and a database are functionally two different products. Each can be called Firebird.

The fact that these two different products are software is imho not an issue.

Re:What must have gone through the FirebirdSQL min

[Unordained]

the point was that it's not a new-comer, experimental, this-is-my-phd thesis database system. it's not abandoned, and its development is still going strong.

and yes, someone -does- know firebird. now you do.

as to datawarehousing, however, the dominant technique (star) isn't really a relational technique -- it's an optimization via older, hierarchical methods. as such, i wouldn't recommend directly using a database designed for normal relational operations -- in fact, i -would- recommend something like mysql: designed for speed over simple operations ... transaction support is practically optional (most data warehouses aren't one at the same with the online oft-updated production database.)

as to the naming (you'll notice i was kind enough not to say anything about that?) you should realize that, as a trademark, the name must be defended, or it will be diluted. if 'firebird' were going to be anything more than an internal code-name for a particular version of the mozilla browser product, you'd have a serious problem coming: firebird's name would be taken over by a more popular product, such that eventually, someone would inevitably claim that the database project had stolen the browser's name. impossible, you claim? if the mozilla team is so attached to the name now, imagine how it'd be a year or two down the line when questions were asked ... there'd be no room for debate. it had to happen -now- to avoid future problems.

the firebird team is working just to have their own little corner. they're not good at advertising themselves, but the least the rest of us can do is leave them alone. you don't like it? fine, don't use it. but you don't name your projects in such a way as to make it even harder for others to gain recognition -- say, naming your popular [x] software "mysql" when at a time when it's still a fledgling project. (they, however, are really quite good at advertising.)

and 'denial of service' isn't a product name, now is it?

Re:Can you give this a rest so they can sort it ou

[ManxStef]

Did you actually read what I said, or indeed what you yourself refer to? I said:

A few complaints from the Firebird database crew (and a few seemingly hollow threats of legal action, which they'd have been much better off not saying at all), but most are happy with the outcome <snip />

And from the page you quoted:

There would not be a conflict if Mozilla were to use the actual trademark "Mozilla Firebird".

Which is exactly what the Mozilla Branding Strategy document clarifies that Mozilla.org'll do (see rule 5.3), right up until they switch to the name "Mozilla Browser" (5.4). End of problem. Do I need to clarify this any further for you, seeing as you seem to be exactly the kind of ill-informed Slashdot zealot (AC, no less!) that I lambasted in my original post?

Personally I think Firebird should've made efforts to legally define their trademark long ago (even though they've been trading as "Firebird" unimpinged for the past few years, which may also establish it, and also assuming that a court would see fit to grant it), then perhaps this whole incident would never have got as far as it did. But then I should've registered sex.com long ago too; hindsight is 20/20. Nevermind, I'll just forge a letter and send it to Network Solutions ;)

We will call it MOZILLA after 1.4!

[MarcQuadra]

Remember, after 1.4 Firebird will be the standard 'browser' for Mozilla. The all-encompassing front-end you know and hate will fade away and separate apps for each purpose (browser, mail, chat, layout, text editing, etc.) will be standard. They'll all compile from the same place and run off a core shared set of library files, but the binaries WILL be separate. I think only the bugzilla/development community will call it 'firebird' because we'll be too busy calling it 'Mozilla.'

Right now Phoenix users say Phoenix to DIFFERENTIATE from normal XPFE Mozilla users, but after we're standardized on Firebird that will fade away. We will evolve.

Re:Ignoring the real problems at Mozilla...

[asa]

"The Mozilla team has decided to produce a mail client and a stripped-down browser missing most of the really cool features of Mozilla."

What Mozilla SeaMonkey browser (Navigator) features are missing in Mozilla Firebird? There are certainy a lot of preference settings no longer exposed in UI and there are a few differently exposed features but I'm confused by your characterization of Mozilla Firebird as "stripped-down" and missing *most* of the really cool features of Mozilla (Navigator/SeaMoney browser).

Some cool features from the application suite's browser:
1. tabbed browser
2. pop-up blocking
3. bookmark custom keywords
4. great privacy controls
5. fine-grained js controls for saying no to sites that want to take over the status bar or raise and lower/resize windows, etc.
6. support for themes
7. image blocking
8. view selection source
9. search on selection
10. type ahead find aka find as you type
11. great layout engine
12. XUL extensions for all kinds of great additional features.
13. sherlock-like search plugin support (see mycroft.mozdev.org for 300 or so search plugins).

Those are a most of the "cool" features I use in Mozilla Navigator *browser* and every single one of them is available in Mozilla Firebird (and some are even better/more usable in Mozilla Firebird).

In addition, Mozilla Firebird has quite a few really cool features that the Mozilla Navigator browser doesn't. Customizable toolbars, a XUL extension manager, inline form auto-completion, "clear all" privacy mechanism, more themes, etc.

If you're talking about things like an email client, the dom inspector, the js debugger, chatzilla, an html composer, etc. those aren't going anywhere. They aren't browser features though. They are applications. And they won't be "missing". We'll continue to support them as Mozilla applications or extensions to Mozilla applications.

The only "cool" features, that are actually browser features (and not other applications or preference settings), that I can think of are html sidebars, the site navigation (formerly "link") toolbar and an author style sheet switching mechanism. All three of those are planned to be included in Mozilla Firebird.

What are all of these other "really cool features of Mozilla" that were stripped out of Mozilla Firebird?

--Asa