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Mozilla's Joy Of Naming
An anonymous reader writes "Thought the Firebird naming conflict was over? Think again! (If you thought, "What naming conflict?", go to the back of the class and read Slashdot's, previous coverage.) MozillaZine has got an exclusive interview with Christopher Blizzard, mozilla.org staff member, Red Hat employee and author of the Mozilla branding strategy. It's one the first official statements from mozilla.org (Mitchell Baker published a letter that she sent to the Firebird database project admins a few days ago). As well as the interview, MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project (who still haven't adequately explained how it was different when they picked the same name as the older Firebird BBS). Compare and contrast with MozillaZine's interview of Ann Harrison of the Firebird database project."
Argh! There are so many links in that submission that my head is about to explo
"Sweet! FREE PUBLICITY!"
:)
I mean, not as popular as mysql, not as advanced as postgresql... they didn't have a whole lot going for them before this came up.
Such a conflict is bad for the image of the open source community. Sadly, it has reached the stage where no one can back down because of bruised egos...And hence it'll be settled (if ever) after a lot of shenanigans.
Ok, I'm still proposing "Bob" for the name. And no, I'm not named Bob!
They should call it YellowDello
best web host ever
I'm sure it is greatly interesting to those involved, but to me this is rapidly approaching tabloid material...
Nothing's going to change. Nobody's going to back down. Further, it doesn't really matter.
In a shocking turn of events, Blizzard Entertainment, maker of popular game franchises Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo, is charging Christoper Blizzard with trademark and DMCA violations. "Mr. Blizzard and his family were not authorized to use that last name" said a Blizzard executive who wished to remain anonymous. "We're suggesting he change his name to Christopher Snow, or Christopher Storm, something that won't confuse people."
Is anyone else reminded of the radical group from "A life of brian", or is it just me?
They should name these browsers after progressive rock songs. That'd give them a lot of geek cred (in my mind anyway). Come on, what could be cooler than using a browser called "Echoes"?
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
Isn't this just going to cause confusion? Many people currently refer to the browser component of the 'Mozilla Application Suite' as the 'Mozilla browser' and changing the name of Firebird to 'Mozilla Browser' will just confuse things even worse than they already are.
w eek as a separate application.
People tend to think Mozilla='Mozilla Application Suite' and they tend to think of Phoenix/Firebird/Mozilla Browser/whatever-they're-calling-themselves-this-
I'm confused just talking about it.
as
My journal has hot
God it's disgusting how far we've devolved into this stupid little legalistic society where everybody is suing everybody else for the dumbest reasons. Oh yeah, like I'm going to confuse a Web browser with some old crappy database that nobody ever uses or an ugly-looking monstrosity Pontiac targeted at middle-aged bald men who want a car that "looks fast." Hello. It's just a name. Who cares?
You know, if people would put as much effort into technological innovation and development as they do into suing each other, who knows how far along technology might be right now? We're far too infatuated with lawsuits and lawyers and multi-million dollar settlements and not focused on actually making things work. Sad, really.
I think they should just let google decide:
Searched the web for firebird +database. Results 1 - 10 of about 35,000. Search took 0.06 seconds.
Searched the web for firebird +mozilla. Results 1 - 10 of about 9,380. Search took 0.11 seconds.
The Firebird database people should rename their project Phoenix.
Since these name (Firebird, Thunderbird, etc.) are only codenames from what i understand, why not drop the codenames and use the names that the final product is going to go buy: Mozilla Browser project and Mozilla Email project. Its impossible to recomend anyone to use a great product if the name changes twice a month!
My 2 cents
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
Nevertheless, we do intend to change the name so that the browser now known as "Mozilla Firebird Browser" becomes the "Mozilla Browser."
ff33ssr (i've checked google and dns no one has taken that name yet and it has the added bonus of not being pronouncable)
Just call it 'Mozilla 2.0' and call it good.
There's no rule that says you have to add features with every release.
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
Seriously, it's between a DB nobody knows and a trick browser few use (yes, I am one of those few).
But does it really warrant this kind of posting?
I mean look at all of the posts this far. TWO 'BSD is Dying' posts, for crying out loud.
And, of course, this classy rant...
The opposite of progress is congress
At my college, RIT, there have been changes to the names of things in the recent past. "Physical Plant," our janitorial service, became "FMS." A bunch of apartments called "Capstones" are now called "University Commons."
You know what? Everyone calls them "Physical Plant" and "Capstone."
Everyone I know still calls it "Phoenix." I still do.
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
Why doesn't Mozilla just codename it Project Trogdor? Yeah, it's more dragon-y than phoenix-y, but it's also hella cool.
And I'm doubting that the Brothers Chaps would say no if the Mozilla people asked them nicely. More publicity both ways.
"And all was laid to burnination..."
EI: Explorer of Internet.
Enig? Det alt for hot det smor!
Mozilla should just use 'Firebird Trans Am' instead.
Then we would all think of Burt Reynolds when searching our favorite web pages. And, it would go well next to my Camino.
To further confuse the issue, Firebird is a model (or line?) of communications test equipment (BER analyzers/impairment simulators, etc.)
;
Not to mention a made-to-be-wrecked car from GM.
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
You know, one hears all sorts of complaints about media bias -- too leftist, too rightist -- but I never thought I'd hear "overwealmingly [sic] biased in favor of Firebird".
At any rate, how hard is it to pick a new freaking name? Like there's a shortage of mystical animals? Start up a game of Angband and charge downwards until you hit a good-sounding creature. I'd suggest a high-elf warrior for maximimum speed of descent. Just watch out for hounds, and that annoying family of dwarves that resists everything and touches to disenchant!
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Just makes the Mozilla group look like a bunch of morons if they cant even find a name for their product. This will go down a treat with CTO's considering switching away from IE. The mozilla guys really need to start acting like grown ups here and get this sorted. Far from being a flagship open source product they are rapidly deteriorating into a farce
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Man after bnetd you would think those Warcraft guys would be all over him.
> Just pick another name. It's not that hard. They were there first.
I've always been a fan of "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla E-mail".
My general approach when looking for a name is to Google all possibilities until I find one that returns 0 hits. If it isn't in Google then it doesn't exist - so is safe to use. Until I wrote this message 'Phyerburd' would have been an example. It's also interesting in that then any time you searh for that word you can be pretty sure that most the hits in Google relate to your use of the word. An easy indicator to watch your growth by.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
... since the browser is *so* much newer (years vs weeks) and it is quickly catching up in mindshare, obviously picking the name wasn't really a big conflict.
--- I do not moderate.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ann Harrison explicitly say she was trying to milk this opportunity for free publicity?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Seeing that the Chimera project (Mozilla/Cocoa for OSX) had to change it's name to "Camino"; I would hazzard a guess that the Mozilla team is targeting gas-guzzling sports cars for new monikers, rather than fowl. Maybe they should name the next version of Mozilla Corvette?
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
they stopped refereing to their browser as "Firebird (TM)" and now call it exclusively "Mozilla Firebird Browser" ... if there is anyone left who is confused by that they really have bigger problems to worry about than this pathetic little dispute.
mozilla have made great efforts at meeting the SQL people in the middle... i'm just not seeing the SQL people recipricating.
tasty electronic music vittles
_________________ /
/ Mozilla's shit! \
\ Use Konqueror!
-----------------
\ ^__^
\ (oo)\_______
(__)\ )\/\
||----w |
|| ||
When the Firebird database chose the name for its project, the people from the similarly named Firebird BBS did not complain or object.
When the Firebird browser project took its name, people from the Firebird database project did complain. Argue the case either way, but that is the difference. It's not rocket science.
Some people have accused mozilla.org of having an arrogant and dismissive attitude towards the Firebird database community. What is your response to these allegations?
That it's an excellent example of argumentum ad hominem.
Err ... That isn't the same thing as denying that you've been arrogant and dismissive, Mr. Blizzard. Only that, if you have, it's not relevant to the argument. So ... is that it? You've been arrogant and dismissive but so what, that's not the point? Your answer seems to have confirmed that allegation, if not only by its logical content, then also by its curt nature.
phoenix/firebird/whatever = "the web broswer" ....
/ignore.
email client = "the email client"
and so on
It will solve all the problems and then they need to take the attitude of telling everyone else to bugger off and be rude about it.
There's one thing about being a nice guy... but when things get plain silly, you need to flip the other person/group the bird and put them on
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Count the number of users of each product and let that decide:
Mozilla Firebird: 3,000,000
Firebird SQL: 3
Hmm, 1,000,000 to 1 user ratio.
Dude, the broswer should be called Freebird.
there needs to be clear distinctions in bugzilla between the current mozilla browser and the future Mozilla Browser... hence the name Firebird (equevielent to Seamonkey now)
tasty electronic music vittles
NOBODY would use that for a project name...
Wait, I'm going to use it ;)
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
Okay, Firebird is such a generic name. When are people going to just get with some common sense and realize that with a limited number of words in any language, some stuff is going to get reused. Especially things that are common, like Fire and Bird. When are people just going to get over it and realize that trademarks can be as bad as patents and copyright?
that's the mozilla people though. everyone already knows who mozilla.org is....
firebird database? now that's a different story.
*** For a better tommorow, change your life today ***
Argh! There are so many links in that submission that my head is about to explo
... Take a look at the articles - More links! They're trying to reverse-slashdot the people who actually read the articles!
Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
First Mozilla.org changed the name from Phoenix to Firebird because Phoenix BIOS was annoyed (afraid someone could mistakenly buy a web browser instead of a BIOS chip).
Now, they realized that the name was already in use by another open source project but they have no intention to get back.
Is this correct ?
MOD THE CHILD UP!
No, what he is saying is if they had not mail bombed us we would have been able to communicate much easier with you. When you've got people sending you thousands of hatemail a day, any mail comming in from developers is going to be lost in the bunch and ignored. What he is saying is that they would not have been ignored if they were not lost in the mess of hatemail that was sent out, and encouraged to be sent out, out of maturity and sophistication on part of the FirebirdSQL team. *rolls his eyes*
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
For the rubber-monster challenged, here's a picure for your reference and edification.
"Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble
So let me get this straight: It is okay for the FirebirdSQL team to pick the same name as was chosen by the Firebird BBS developers, but it is 'unprofessional' and 'sploiled' of the Mozilla project to choose the name Firebird because the Firebird SQL project had choosen it first? Gotta love that logic...
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
-Are you the Judean People's Front?
...We're the People's Front of Judea!
-FUCK OFF!
Seriously though...who cares? No one will ever know the different except Slashdot readers and open source activists. No one else will ever hear of these "codenames." They will still call Phoenix/Firebird/Whateverthefuck - Mozilla.
http://www.annapmicro.com/firebird_pci.html
they want thier name back! Seriously, this is lame. There are many bobs and teds and jesuss and mohamads and we manage to know which one we're talking about. why the fighting in corporate land?
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
Dear Namer,
f ide
Here are my suggestions to replace "Firebird":
Trojan
Sheik
LifeStyles
Durex
Kameleon
Con
Contempo
Kimono
Reality
Magnum
Stay protected,
Rupert
Soon I am going to register on Sourforge, Savannah and other project hosting sites several new projects:
- Mozilla Web server based on fork of newcoming Zope-3;
- Mozilla Linux distro based on mix of Gentoo and ArchLinux;
- Mozilla language, Haskell in a syntax of Lisp's S-exps;
- and finally - Mozilla database based on fork of Firebird Database, just for fun
:)
I am very comfortable that using such good and self-expressive name as Mozilla I can quickly gather very good developers and rapidly develop the code that will take over the worldAs for Mozilla Browser, well, we may develop such on new Mozilla language, specially to browse Mozilla database. That's what are browsers for anyway, right?
Less is more !
Troll? An honest question. Does anyone outside of the affected parties actually care?
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I have lost a lot of respect for the Mozilla leadership because of this dispute. The database folks had the name first, and it's not as if picking another name will cause "branding" issues... 99% of users don't call it "Mozilla Firebird" and so nobody will care if another name is picked. It's not like Mozilla.org invested in a million-dollar ad campaign with the name Firebird.
The mature thing to do would be for the Mozilla folks to back off, and pick another name. The legalities of it are largely irrelevant - this kind of dispute is bad for the community, and it reflects very poorly on all involved with the Mozilla side of things. These guys are making some abusive corporations look nice and friendly right now, and it disgusts me.
"Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
Change the name of pheonix from firebird to:
earthbird,
lightningbird,
rainbird,
windbird,
or my personal nickname for pheonix:
zinjanthropus... (nut cracker man)... right...
My inner self is ineffable, so don't eff with me.
Everybody knows that browsers are named after cars.
Explorer = Ford Explorer
Navigator = Lincoln Navigator
Safari = GMC Safari
Or maybe it's the other way around.
I can see the Firebird people getting upset about Mozilla's hijacking of the name, but FirebirdSQL is just taking the piss.
Or did you make that name up?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I'm the pride of the peaches.
Don't mod me down! I didn't even use my karma bonus for this one! =p
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"Nomad". You know, a wanderer. No, wait that's taken.
"FetchIt". As in go get it. Damn that's taken too.
"Carnivore". That's never had any bad press. And the icon looks like something out of Jurassic Park anyway.
"Charlie". Everybody knows a guy named Charlie, and they're usually good guys. Oh, wait, that damn conflict a few decades ago. Forget it.
yeah, it's publicity. in fact, ann -did- say it was publicity: because they figured this had happened by accident, because, as you pointed out, they're not popular ... and no-one would be careful not to name their project 'firebird'.
... i'd like to see your qualification of that. i've come across talks by (of all people) microsoft, where interbase/firebird (same thing, except firebird is open-source, free, and not stinky) is listed right along with oracle, db2, sybase, etc. (and you won't find any mention of mysql or postgresql there.)
... fifteen years? a little more? it's quite full-featured, growing constantly, and currently undergoing a C to C++ conversion so adding features will be even faster in the near future.
... but on slashdot, everyone uses a browser. and if they code ... they're quite likely to have just picked up "php and mysql" at their local bookstore, and never looked for a -real- database. (isn't it sad that, even as good as postgresql is, and -known-, people still favor mysql? geeks, of all people, should know when they see a hack-job.) so instead, from now on, with the slashdot crowd, firebird will be known as "that evil database project that tried to keep mozilla from using its name!" ...
... work on firebird now. you can thank ann and jim for the work that brought you a fully-capable database without the bloat of oracle.)
however, as to the postgresql part
interbase has been around for, what
if it hadn't been for this stink over naming, firebird would have stood a good chance of publicizing their milestone releases (1.5 and 2.0) through slashdot. in fact, there might have been a lot more people picking it up and saying "hey, cool!"
maybe interbase stands a chance (not really -- all the original coders who made interbase possible
and yes, i -am- proud to use firebird in a production environment. it's fast, it's solid, and it does everything (almost -- i've got a few feature requests in) i want it to do. check it out! (and call it whatever you like!)
Wait, you're telling me there's also something called "FirebirdSQL" now? As well as the database package Firebird and Mozilla's unfortunately named Firebird?
As far as I can tell from the (extremely convoluted) info in the links, the "Firebird Database Project" and "FirebirdSQL" are the same thing.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
... and this is even a better way to reach their goal. To quote Mitchell Baker:
Mozilla 2.0, completely new and improved - not what you once knew as Mozilla 1.4 or whatever.
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
I think we all agree the name has to reflect the nature of the code being "resurrected" from the ashes of the old project. So, here's some of my suggestions:
Jesus
Lazarus
Jean Grey
Saddam Hussein (how many times has this guy come back from the dead now?)
Dick Clark
To most people, "Mozilla" is just the open-source version of Netscape's browser. When Phoenix is released in a non-alpha version, it'll be the browser, so it'll be "Mozilla." The fact that the internal framework has changed doesn't really matter.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
OK Basilisk (also known as the Jesus Christ lizard because of it's ability to run on water) is taken -- but how about Cursoris? Eudibamus cursoris was possibly the first creature to walk on two legs (and the fastest in it's class because of it).
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
You know, I hate to be the one to point this out, but "Firebird" is a damn stupid name for either a browser or a database, especially considering the implication that both products rose from the ashes of other products that were abandoned by their original developers when they ceased to be competitive.
As a database name, it's especially stupid. What's the phoenix symbolism here? "Hey, try our database! All your data will crash and burn periodically, but you'll be able to recover it." C'mon, even freaking IBM can come up with better marketing themes. At least when you hear the name of their product, DB2, you know it's a database.
The same argument could be applied to the browser, though. Or indeed to most browsers. If you're not already aware of the product, what do names like Firebird, Mozilla, and Opera mean to you? Nothing. Look at MS product names: Internet Explorer, Word, Publisher, Flight Simulator. Bigod, the product name tells you what the product is. (Of course, on the other hand, you have Excel, Access, and Bob.)
Instead of squabbling over an uninformative name that has an uninspiring thudding cadence and making the Open Source world look like a bunch of petty jerks, how about the Firebird people and the other Firebird people go back to their corners and choose new names as if their choice of names actually matters.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
There's a perfectly good precedent for settling this sort of dispute.
Remember when Carl Sagan complained about the Apple project codenamed "Sagan"?
Why not change the codename to Butthead DB?
I've said this before...
W3C cames up with XForms - The Next Generation of Web Forms in 2002, but XForms - a GUI toolkit for X has existed for a long time (initially here).
Okay.
I still don't understand this.
Why is this such a big deal? There can't be a browser and a database with the same name?
Is this some sort of intellectual property argument? Doesn't this sort of go against the "spirit" of the OS community?
With all of these name conflict why don't they go with maybe the same meaning of Firebird and Phoenix but maybe in another language, where they can be more creative and have a lesser chance of coming up with name conflicts?
Maybe go with Quenya (Middle-Earth Language, from Lord of the Rings/Tolkien)
Pardon my poor quenya but i pulled the following together from word stems of bird and fire from this English-Quenya dictionary (RTF file)
Naraiwe in quenya which if i got it correctly is firebird/phoenix. It has the meaning, certainly sounds cool and i doubt there some other project out there using this name.
Ok so searching google shows up some guy with naraiwe as his nickname, well he's not a project!!
My point stands :)
.... ... }
int main (void) {
There's no rule that says you have to add features with every release.
But there is a rule that a major version number change means a major backend API change. See Asa's comment.
-Malloc
___________________ I want to be free()!
Perhaps it's time to head over to ipetitions.com and collect signatures of like-minded people. (I'll sign it in a heartbeat.)
Just make them flip a coin. The winner keeps firebird. The loser gets called thundercougerfalconbird.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
We'll still like it even if it's called Mini-Moz.
Just don't call it Usher.
There seems to be a consensus the browser should be called "Phoenix". Rather than spell it out alphabetically why not use the L33T spelling such as:
Ph03NiXX
I think this is distinguishing enough that no confusion should occur.
Feenix?
= No fee, plus phonetically flipping the bird.
pure AI will always Sublime
...why not use something else like, 'GreggaryPeccary' or 'HotRats' or 'Matrix' or 'Neo' or 'Morpheus' or 'Gollum' or 'Internet Exploder' or 'Internet Exploiter' ...
What's really weird in all of this is, FirebirdSQL isn't calling Mozilla on the carpet over a registered trademark. They have never tried to register their trademark, they simply "own" (no, sorry, to properly quote them, it's "OWN") the name because they have been using it. This is entirely possible; IANAL. However, the rub is, if they had not previously noted that it was a trademark, and hadn't registered it, how on earth was anyone to know that it *was* a trademark before using the name?
When I'm at home, and don't have WebSense telling me that the Wayback Machine falls under the forbidden category of "proxy evasion," I'll see what firebirdsql.org has previously said about their "trademark." If they never called it a trademark until AOL/Time Warner did, I cry foul. If they did, though, then a Google search should have told the AOL lawyers this was a bad idea.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
oh wait, i suppose Al Gore would file suit that they stole the name of his invention. oh well.
"You want a toe? I can get you a toe by three o'clock... with nail polish."
"interbase has been around for, what ... fifteen years?"
So? DOS has been around even longer but you don't see Microsoft objecting people to use it as an acronym for 'Denial of Service' attacks?
Furthermore, just because you use to use Firebird you seemed to believe it has a chance. I too am in the datawarehousing team here and I don't think anyone here knows of FireBird SQL. (FYI, we use Oracle, MS SQL Server, and MySQL.)
Condensed version of events:
I think the Church of the Subgenius might have an issue with that. Would naming a mere browser "Bob" be some sort of blasphemy?
philcrissman.com.
People could better spend their time thinking about features, coding etc.. than worrying about a name. It's not like the average "Gold CD" Windows user know what it is anyway.
(Gold CD meaning a install that has never been patched, bug fixed etc..)
I think this should be a lesson for those releasing projects in the future. It used to be that a search for "Phoenix" on Google would turn up the Phoenix webpage as its first match. "Firebird" matches all sorts of stuff, but (last I checked), none of them were the web browser. Over time, this will hopefully change, but the point is that name changes after a project gets popular are a bad thing.
Obviously there wasn't much choice when PhoenixBIOS's lawyers got involved, but I really wish people could see that not everything in the world needs a unique name. When someone introduces themselves as Matt, I don't get confused and refuse to talk to them because of a name conflict. (Since it's also my name.) Similarly, if asked to trim the bushes, I don't show up at the White House with hedge trimmers.
Similarly, if someone asks "What browser do you use?", and I reply "Phoenix," they're not going to get confused and think I'm talking about my BIOS. (Nor will they think I've captured a bird and am using it.)
Again, I realize that the developers in this case really had no choice, but I think it's pretty sad when lawyers decide the people don't know the difference between a bird, a web browser, and a database.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
Duh, make that the PNH Toolbar.
:)
It still kicks ass though, esp. the layout tools tab, I particularly love the "disable styles" option, and the ability to quickly outline block elements (very useful when coding CSS)
This whole nightmare could have been avoided if at least one of two groups of nominally intelligent people--the database group and the browser group--had the small amount of creativity necessary to think of a name that is not utterly juvenile. "Firebird" sounds like a Transformer or a He-Man villain. This is a joke, right?
I would like to ask my fellow Mozilla Project members, what the hell are we fighting this battle for? Let them have that dippy name. Plenty of good names were suggested to replace Phoenix. How about picking one?
Finally, a note to Mozilla's legal counsel. Please do some good research and give some good advice next time, so sh&7storms like this can be avoided.
I have long wondered why they don't give Phoenix/Firebird a name befitting it's position.
Firebird? What does that have to do with Mozilla?
I still think they should just change the name to "Zilla." That way, people can know that if Zilla is to lean for them, they can get Mo' Zilla.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
The presence of a rat is well regarded in Japan, it is the sign of a good harvest.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
The fact that these two different products are software is imho not an issue.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
In all honesty, I'm quite curious why Mozilla just didn't rename Phoenix straight to Thunderbird. Since the Thunderbird mail client is now known as Minotaur, what was wrong with abandoning Thunderbird. I realize the infringement potential with the car company, but I doubt they'd squak much; as it's a browser versus a car.
the point was that it's not a new-comer, experimental, this-is-my-phd thesis database system. it's not abandoned, and its development is still going strong.
... transaction support is practically optional (most data warehouses aren't one at the same with the online oft-updated production database.)
... there'd be no room for debate. it had to happen -now- to avoid future problems.
and yes, someone -does- know firebird. now you do.
as to datawarehousing, however, the dominant technique (star) isn't really a relational technique -- it's an optimization via older, hierarchical methods. as such, i wouldn't recommend directly using a database designed for normal relational operations -- in fact, i -would- recommend something like mysql: designed for speed over simple operations
as to the naming (you'll notice i was kind enough not to say anything about that?) you should realize that, as a trademark, the name must be defended, or it will be diluted. if 'firebird' were going to be anything more than an internal code-name for a particular version of the mozilla browser product, you'd have a serious problem coming: firebird's name would be taken over by a more popular product, such that eventually, someone would inevitably claim that the database project had stolen the browser's name. impossible, you claim? if the mozilla team is so attached to the name now, imagine how it'd be a year or two down the line when questions were asked
the firebird team is working just to have their own little corner. they're not good at advertising themselves, but the least the rest of us can do is leave them alone. you don't like it? fine, don't use it. but you don't name your projects in such a way as to make it even harder for others to gain recognition -- say, naming your popular [x] software "mysql" when at a time when it's still a fledgling project. (they, however, are really quite good at advertising.)
and 'denial of service' isn't a product name, now is it?
Great comment. Score = 4 is the reason why /. moderation sucks.
You think you can explain the difference in database and a browser to a judge!!?!?! I think not.
Personally I think Firebird should've made efforts to legally define their trademark long ago (even though they've been trading as "Firebird" unimpinged for the past few years, which may also establish it, and also assuming that a court would see fit to grant it), then perhaps this whole incident would never have got as far as it did. But then I should've registered sex.com long ago too; hindsight is 20/20. Nevermind, I'll just forge a letter and send it to Network Solutions
The real problem with Mozilla is that they are going from one extreme to another. The current "Mozilla" is a monolithic, complex app whose performance can be less than ideal on older systems.
Now instead of simply splitting off the mail/newgroup reader from the browser, html editing and chat apps, the Mozilla team has decided to produce a mail client and a stripped-down browser missing most of the really cool features of Mozilla.
Features that are disabled by default == features that will never be used.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Why did Mozilla need to change the codename from Seamonkey in the first place? Let's just pretend this Firebird thing never happened and go back to calling the "under development" versions Seamonkey and call the release "Mozilla Browser" or "Mozilla Navigator".
. They ARE aware of the Firebird database project, but collectively (between about ten to twenty of them) "can't see any naming conflict"
You make it seem like amateurs decided. What about the highly-paid Intellectual Property attorneys from AOL Time Warner? They approved it too.
s/features/bugs/
Remember, after 1.4 Firebird will be the standard 'browser' for Mozilla. The all-encompassing front-end you know and hate will fade away and separate apps for each purpose (browser, mail, chat, layout, text editing, etc.) will be standard. They'll all compile from the same place and run off a core shared set of library files, but the binaries WILL be separate. I think only the bugzilla/development community will call it 'firebird' because we'll be too busy calling it 'Mozilla.'
Right now Phoenix users say Phoenix to DIFFERENTIATE from normal XPFE Mozilla users, but after we're standardized on Firebird that will fade away. We will evolve.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
Clearly, they (Firbird database) were thinking that trademark infringement is different when it happens to English speakers than when it happens to Chinese speakers.
Not meaning to troll, but to this observer it looks like hypocrisy, if not racism.
Maybe I should claim the moazilla.org and emuzilla.org domain names. Who says all the good domains are taken?
First of all, I had never heard of the Firebird database, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Now I have, and I'm sure the publicity is working out for them.
Secondly, why don't that just change their name to MozillaSQL or something? Good for the goose, right?
I vote they change the name to "ThunderPig"
what, again?
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
but on slashdot, everyone uses a browser. and if they code ... they're quite likely to have just picked up "php and mysql" at their local bookstore, and never looked for a -real- database. (isn't it sad that, even as good as postgresql is, and -known-, people still favor mysql? geeks, of all people, should know when they see a hack-job.)
I can't imagine why no one else bothered to point this out to you -- unless it's so obvious that no one wanted to take the time. A dozen trials tell the tale: MySQL stacks up right next to Oracle in performance tests, leaving the others, including PostgreSQL, in the dust. Do a simple search on Oracle, MySQL, and performance, and read the myriad papers on the topic.
So once performance and reliability are answered, all that's left is price. Lessee, hundreds of thousands of dollars... free.... hundreds of thousands of dollars... free....
Hmmmmmm......
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
Its faster than anything out there for doing any thing it can do. So if it does everything that you do need, then why not use it?
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
as others have pointed out -- you're right, mysql IS fast (see my other posts,) i even recommend it for datawarehousing situations, where data is denormalized, and fast queries against large amounts of simple information are a good thing.
however, it's also fast -for what it does- which is not nearly as much as other database systems. the fact that it compares to oracle while not having the features of oracle says something: oracle's still worth more, and maybe a price is justified. firebird, postgresql may have more features than mysql, but they also aren't always as fast. i've found though that they're not slow, and being able to accomplish complicated queries without resorting to some client-side method is often a -good- thing. i'd rather my server deal with it than my network.
"nfg05" writes:
Well, here are two separate codenames for you: "Mozilla Browser 1.4" and "Mozilla Browser 1.5".There, all fixed... Now, why THE HELL couldn't those Mozilla people think of that for themselves?!? It's not as if version numbers are a totally new concept in this industry, is it?
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
(And why does this stupid software insist on me saying something here, when I've already said everything I wanted to say up in the "Subject:" line?!? Malda, you're so LAAAAAME!)
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
Claiming they do is about as idiotic as if you claimed to, say, have "every right to actively claim" the trademark "Coca-Cola" for your new beer, or something. It just won't fly.
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
But not all browsing is Web browsing -- some folks might, for instance, want to browse the data in their database. And for that they might want to use -- surprise, surprise! -- a database browser. In fact, I hear some people do that already... And guess what the database browser for the data in their Firebird database is called?
So, yes, it _I_S_ actually quite possible for a web browser with the same name to be rather confusing for users of a database that had that name first.
(And here's how you proved you were wrong: See how you yourself went from "a web browser?" to just "HAD a browser already" in the quote above.)
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here