Ogg Now An RFC

Logic writes "The Ogg bitstream format (used by Ogg Vorbis) has been enshrined in RFC 3533, "The Ogg Encapsulation Format Version 0", for all you folks who won't look at something unless it has an RFC attached to it."

Comments

Can't wait for

[sulli]

RFC 3533 over RFC 1149! (perfect for those multi-year John Cage tunes)

Re:Can't wait for

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody considering this should note that RFC1149 has been superceded by RFC2549, countering data loss to hawks and the like.

Re:Can't wait for

[Anonymous Coward]

I turn my nose up at any psychoaustic scheme, especially now I have the remixed 7.1 surround Super-Audio CD version of 4'33... blows your mind, you can hear a pin drop! Especially with my new $20k speakers.

Re:Can't wait for

[Anonymous Coward]

Which came first, the Avian, or the OGG? (Insert obligatory Chicken Run reference...)

Hopefully

[Surye]

We can now get some more external player support. Especially in all the CD/MP3 players with upgradeable firmware and same with just MP3 players. I can't wait to be able to starting going only ogg.

Re:Hopefully

[millette]

Actually, Tremor, the integer codec, took care of that over a ago according to the changelog. And it's released under a bsd-like license.

Re:Hopefully

[bobm17ch]

I`m afraid this won`t affect player support much. The device (pc/mp3player/whatever) still has to support the vorbis audio codec within the ogg wrapper. Think of ogg as a bag of revels. The bag is standardised and easy to manipulate, but you just don`t know what you`re gonna get inside. Or even if you are gonna be able to handle it :) [1] [1] I can`t decode the orange revels. My codec empties the contents of the buffer through the I/O. :p

Re:Hopefully

[millette]

That casts a shadow over my previous response... I'm never careful enough separating ogg and vorbis; like tcp and ip, really.

Re:Hopefully

[ramzak2k]

Do you encode your mp3s with mp3? I guess not. Do you see my point?
Don't convert your mp3s. Keep 'em. From now on, if you rip a new cd, use Ogg.

Maybe on a boring afternoon you could re-rip your already ripped cd's to Ogg and send the old mp3s to the bitbucket.

Fraunhofer's mp3pro doesn't have mp3->mp3pro converters. Why should Ogg Vorbis need that?

Re:Hopefully

[damiam]

EAC will work fine with Ogg, just download the encoder and point EAC to it. Alternately, you can use CDex or any number of other programs.

Re:Hopefully

[pslam]

Actually, Tremor, the integer codec, took care of that over a ago according to the changelog. And it's released under a bsd-like license.

Unfortunately Tremor isn't a one-size-fits-all. It's got nasty things like dynamic memory allocation all over the shop and still a rather large memory overhead. Actually, to be 100% compliant with the Vorbis 1.0 spec it's rather difficult to turn out a fast and small implementation (I've been trying).

At the moment I'm working on getting my own implementation working with an extremely small RAM overhead. It's by no means trivial getting it working on the DSPs you find in most MP3 players, and almost none of the source code to Tremor could be successfully ported to them either. I don't expect any of the source code I'm writing for my own implementation to be used as anything but a reference for writing a version to run on DSPs.

Of course, it would have been much more difficult even starting to write my own implementation were it not for freely available specs.

Re:Hopefully

[i_am_nitrogen]

Grip is absolutely the most awesome separate ripper I've ever used. It has database lookup, support for lame/bladeenc/oggenc and I think a few others, fully customizable file naming/directory structure, and the UI is actually pretty decent (once you get used to the "tabs-within-tabs" stuff that one of my former coworkers would always get really peeved about).

I'm not aware of any jukebox-like software for Linux, but with grip it's less necessary, as it sorts rips by album and artist if you want it to.

Now that it's an RFC...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only a matter of time before Verisign decides to patent it.

Re:Now that it's an RFC...

[capnjack41]

First, it was a joke, asshead. Take it easy.

Second, a highly scientific and authoritative experiment by "LitexMedia.com" shows that much of the time Ogg has superior quality, and when it's not the difference is only subtle.

http://www.cdburner.ca/digital-audio-formats-artic le/digital-audio-comparison.htm

Yippie

[ergonal]

This is great, well done to all the xiph guys. Remember to show your support by tax-deductibly donating.

Re:Yippie

[mindriot]

On a side note, there has also been a second RFC (RFC 3534) published regarding the application/ogg media type.

Isn't an RFC a request for comment?

[unixwin]

If so, what can one comment on the Ogg stream if its already well defined?
I thought RFC's were proposals for eliciting peer comments/reviews??

Re:Isn't an RFC a request for comment?

[OverlordQ]

When the RFCs were first produced, they had an almost 19th century
character to them - letters exchanged in public debating the merits
of various design choices for protocols in the ARPANET. As email and
bulletin boards emerged from the fertile fabric of the network, the
far-flung participants in this historic dialog began to make
increasing use of the online medium to carry out the discussion -
reducing the need for documenting the debate in the RFCs and, in some
respects, leaving historians somewhat impoverished in the process.
RFCs slowly became conclusions rather than debates.

Straight from RFC 2555

Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

"OGG is better"
"what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..."
"OGG is about music. It's a file format, like MP3s, only better."
"Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying"
"It's OGG. O - G - G."
"Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some halo on my x-boxe!!!"

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonym1ty]

Until I read more about it years ago, the name OGG always made me picture some wanna be Mac Addict listening to Mod files or something in a dark room prodding through OS7 while dreaming how elite he had become.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

[Chorus]
"You down with O G G?"

[background singers]
"Yeah, you know me!"

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny you should bring this up... It's amazing how much more quality you can squeeze out of your EXISTING MP3 collection just by getting some better audio hardware. Before anyone starts taking my advice too far and goes to their local "overpriced audiophile extreme" store, here's how you can get GOOD sound INEXPENSIVELY:

* Get a good sound card. As a general rule, onboard audio stinks. The Audigy is popular - I personally don't like the way it sounds, so YMMV. Try the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz [epinions.com].

* Good speakers can be expensive. Good headphones aren't. Next time RadioShack has the Pro 35's [epinions.com] on sale, pick up a pair for $19.

* Try a few different MP3 players - quality varies. If you're a Windows user, don't waste your time with players that are basically just DirectShow front-ends, they'll ALL sound the same.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[be-fan]

Well, technically, the codec is Vorbis, which is a pretty cool name, if you ask me.

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[donglekey]

"Compact Disc is better"
"what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..."
"Compact Disc is about music. It's a format, like records or tapes, only better."
"Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying"
"It's a Compact Disc, a Cee Dee."
"Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some Techmo Bowl on my Nintendo!!!"

Re:Now if only it had a decent name

[TummyX]

Not to mention the logo which looks like a naked richard stallman hacking at a snake with an axe.

Request For Comments

[millette]

Isn't it ironic that an RFC would be published so late in the format's life? I guess the old meaning is completely obsolete, and Request For Change doesn't really fit the bill either...

Re:Request For Comments

[Greger47]

No, thats the way it is by design.

IETF doesn't standardize anything untill it is finished, complete with reference implementations.

Heres a good writeup: The Internet Engineering Task Force

What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[yppiz]

What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3 as the standard format for music?

I'm curious what folks here think it would take for consumers to think of Ogg as the normal, expected format for audio.

--Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[slavitos]

I am not sure it will replace it, but there are two good reasons it could be competitive: a) It sounds better b) It is license-free I think the odds are good that OGG will be on par with MP3 within 2 or 3 years.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[Tet]

What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3 as the standard format for music?

1. It already has, at least for me. All of my CDs are ripped to Ogg Vorbis, primarily because I know that I'll be able to play them in perpetuity, thanks to the licensing issues.
2. For the general population, the sad answer is that it probably never will. The lack of portable players is often cited as the barrier to widespread adoption. But while I'm sure it's a factor, I don't think it would matter anyway. After all, the world is still using GIFs, despite the widespread availability of superior alternatives. The only exception would be if Fraunhofer go nuts with their licensing demands. I suspect on of the reasons PNG hasn't displaced GIF entirely has been that Unisys asked for sensible amounts when licensing.

Re:What are the odds that Ogg will replace mp3?

[commodoresloat]

a) It sounds better

"Ogg" sounds better than "mp3"? Are you kidding? I mean, "mp3" isn't a great name, but at least you don't feel like a cornball when you say "I've got 20 gigs of mp3s." Who really wants to brag about how many oggs they have??

What? Oh, never mind.

But nobody knows about ogg.

[Anonymous Coward]

Everybody has heard of mp3, and a lot people have heard of DivX ;)/MPEG, but only nerds know about ogg. Its sounds stupid, it looks stupid and theres poor support for it in windows.

If media player dosen't play it, 99% of people won't use it.

-1, troll^H^H^Hue

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[shaitand]

media player doesn't play divx. And I well remember when us nerds were the only ones who had heard of divx. Give it a year and the common idiot will have heard of xvid and ffmpeg4 as well, you see at least with movies, it's nerds who do the encoding because not every idiot can... but any idiot can watch the rip and think he's bright if he knows how to download the codec.

But to be honest, most don't know about divx either yet.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[shaitand]

As a technician with the unfortunate experience to work with an extremely vast array of different windows users, I can confirm that most adults use whatever is put before them. Most teenagers use winamp. Most adults with teenage children use winamp as a consequence because that's what their teenager put before them. I hope this clarifies issues.

Generally I've found this to be a consistant pattern, teenagers use some app from the web (for better or worse) they've found and believe better to do the things they care about (otherwise they use what is in front of them. Adults follow a pretty consistant pattern of never looking for something better than what is put in their path unless they have an extremely compelling reason. And even then, they use the first solution to that reason that is put in front of them.. never really looking for the best solution.

Re:But nobody knows about ogg.

[FattMattP]

Most teenagers use winamp. Most adults with teenage children use winamp as a consequence because that's what their teenager put before them.

Winamp has had built-in Ogg Vorbis support since 2.80.

Remember what an RFC is

[bigberk]

An RFC is a "Request For Comment", a technical specification document put forward by anybody. As wikipedia puts it, "Few RFCs are standards but all Internet standards are recorded in RFCs."

So what am I getting at is, realize that this hasn't been adopted as some Internet standard overnight. But it's very positive for the project to have such a well defined standards document in a familiar format!

Re:Remember what an RFC is

[shaitand]

Nope, is Request for Comment, started in the days when letters were passed around before email and other electronic forms of communication came into existance. Now an RFC is a generally a final definition rather than an introduction.

Ogg or OGG?

[Euphonious Coward]

Why do the RFC page headers say "OGG" instead of "Ogg"? The headers in other RFCs aren't arbitrarily capitalized. It's hard enough convincing people that Ogg isn't an acronym without the RFC itself making our work harder.

Can they fix this without issuing a new RFC number?

Re:Ogg or OGG?

[.com b4 .storm]

Why do the RFC page headers say "OGG" instead of "Ogg"? The headers in other RFCs aren't arbitrarily capitalized. It's hard enough convincing people that Ogg isn't an acronym without the RFC itself making our work harder.

Can they fix this without issuing a new RFC number?

To quote the RFC FAQ:

4) How can I correct an error in a published RFC?
You cannot! Once an RFC is published, it cannot be changed.
[...]
For both technical and editorial errors, the RFC Editor provides a list of errata for published RFCs. This page contains a list of errors that have been reported to the RFC Editor.

Dear RFC

[Letter]

Isn't an RFC a request for comment?

Dear RFC,

Yes, that's what RFC stands for. Slashdot took over the commenting aspect of all RFCs, so please just post any comments you might have about RFC 3533 below.

Sincerely,
Letter

call it vorbis

[SHEENmaster]

and hope they don't think that's a pokiemon.

Re:This is a good thing.

[StrawberryFrog]

Why would apple want to put OGG support into the iPod? MP3 is the bait, AAC is the hook. OGG isn't even a player, and apple has no percentage in making it one.

By that I mean that MP3 support is important for market acceptance - you'll buy one for the MP3z; but AAC with all that DRM is important to the business model. Promoting another no-DRM format over AAC is not in Apple's interest.

That said, I'd love to be wrong. The day that Apple do idealistically put OGG support into Ipod, I will buy one. Or if another manufacturer makes a good one, I'll get that instead.

Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike again!

[Sparr0]

...

Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

...

Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2003). All Rights Reserved.

...

This document and translations of it may be copied and furnished to others ... provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are included on all such copies


Sooo... is distribution one of those reserved "All Rights" or not? I think "All Rights Reserved" can be considered one of the most overused catch phrases of the last 20 years. Not only is it used in a contradictory manner like here, but somehow the MPAA and RIAA and software industry seem to think they really can reserve ALL rights instead of just their exclusive ones.

Version 0???

[jez9999]

"The Ogg Encapsulation Format Version 0"

Version 0?? I've heard of version 0.1, but never version 0. Does this mean it hasn't been started yet?

Re:Version 0???

[DaCool42]

No, it means that whoever picked the version number is a C programmer.

Re:Version 0???

[rjamestaylor]

• version 0. Does this mean it hasn't been started yet?

Damn Visual Basic programmers

Re:Well

[ergonal]

As you wish. CDex has native CD->Ogg ripping support.

Re:Well

[arkanes]

CDex can rip to ogg. It's also the best CD ripper for windows, hands down. It's also open source, which is cool.

http://www.cdex.n3.net

Re:Well

[armie]

How about this?
iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -d slashdot.org -j DAT --to-destination goatse.cx

Re:Zero?

[DarkBlack]

It almost sounds like that you are suggesting that Winamp doesn't support ogg vorbis. It does.

Re:Legalese cut-n-paste contradictions strike agai

[vanyel]

I think "All Rights Reserved" can be considered one of the most overused catch phrases of the last 20 years.

Actually, according to copyright training I had a "well known large company" some years ago, that specific phrase is required in a couple of small countries. It probably is overused in the sense that people think it's required in more places than it actually is, but from what little I recall, trying to copyright something in a way that's valid all over is a rat's nest, Berne or no Berne.

Cute

[Anonymous Coward]

"...for all you folks who won't look at something unless it has an RFC attached to it."

I can imagine Logic taking four long seconds to come up with something that sounded smart at the time. Here are some more gems that Logic has come up with:

"John Carmack reached 50,000 ft. with his X-Prize entry today, for those of you who don't take video games seriously unless their designer is a rocket scientist."

"NASA today announced proof of a black hole in a nearby galaxy, for those of you who won't watch Star Trek episodes with unproven singularities."

"Sun finally implemented generics in Java in its latest release, for those of you who only view web pages with applets written in languages with generics."

....It's the name.. that damn name!

[aphexddb]

I just hate the name "Ogg Vorbis". I'm sure its a better format than mp3 but I just can't stand the name. "Format 3533" from the RFC would even be better.

Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!

[TeknoHog]

At least Ogg Vorbis is a name, not a twisted abbreviation. MPEG 1 Layer III turned into MP3 because some genius thought there's a three character limit to filename 'extensions'. I bet "MP3" didn't sound very catchy when it first came about, but I didn't hear anyone whine about the name.

Evil bit

[Seth Finklestein]

I refuse to support Ogg until its streaming component adequately supports the Evil Bit. Slashdot has given this so-called "Evil Bit" RFC a little lip service in the past, but I think it's high time we brought it out into the open.

BAh

[Loosewire]

That sladhot "gramophone" logo has been used so many times for "RIAA Does something else evil" stories everytime i see it i get angry :-(
Good to see Ogg being recognised like this - maybe more manufacturers will incorporate it into devices now.

Urge... to kill... rising....

[Anonymous Coward]

For the love of $Deity, it's Ogg !! Not OGG, Ogg! Capital O, small g, small g!

Re:Zero?

[lvdrproject]

You're arguing something completely different. You start out talking about software, and then you move on to hardware. Software support for Vorbis has grown exponentially since its inception, and it's no longer a problem. Anything worth its salt supports Vorbis (even WMP, if you have the DirectShow filters, i think). Winamp, Foobar2000, XMMS, &c.. Not to mention all the CD-ripping programs support it. You can even download a plug-in that allows Windows XP to provide information on Vorbis files in Explorer, just as it does with MP3s and WMAs (artist, title, bitrate, &c.).

But you are right about the lack of hardware support. I have a couple friends that like Vorbis, and they would switch in a second, if only there was hardware support. And that seems to be the major problem. Without hardware support, Vorbis will probably remain a nerd's pipe dream forever. Hopefully, though, they're making progress on some hardware players. I think i read in an Ogg Traffic once that one of the iRiver models was tested to see if it could handle Tremor, and apparently it can, which is good news, i think. Whether or not iRiver is going to take the time to implement it is the problem. Aside from that, nobody seems to interested in Vorbis on the hardware side, except for the makers of those ugly iPod rip-offs. :p

Name origins.

[Anonymous Coward]

The name origins are explained here.

Status of Ogg FLAC ?

[wossName]

It has been pretty quiet since the announcement about the FLAC project joining Xiph.org. The Ogg project page still links to the FLAC SourceForge page. Does anyone know what the status of Ogg FLAC is ?

Re:Status of Ogg FLAC ?

[Hatta]

Ogg FLAC works. Just use the --ogg flag to flac. What I can't figure out is why you'd want to.

Re:Status of Ogg FLAC ?

[Hatta]

Ogg FLAC is apparently just a raw flac file imbedded in an Ogg package. Ogg123 will not play Ogg FLACs. I 3 FLAC and I 3 Ogg, but I dont know what extra functionality Ogg FLAC provides.

OGG vorbis players yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

On a distantly related topic, are there any portable music players that can play OGG Vorbis audio files available for sale today? Sure, I see announcements about this one or that one that will support OGG Vorbis in a future firmware update. Sorry, I want it NOW! And I don't want to have to resort to a hack either.

I want a device with support that works today.

Yes, I'd also like the option of either a hard-drive or non-hard-drive device (for more storage, or for jogging), USB 2 or Firewire, and a simple filesystem-like means for uploading/downloading files so I don't have to install some vile piece of software just to do what a filesystem does so well itself (that and it would be more likely to have support under Linux/*BSD, MacOS X, and WinXP). And MP3/AAC/Vorbis/WMA multi-format support would be acceptable too. Oh, and add built-in AM/FM radio, and the ability to record, and I'd be in heaven.

Am I just dreaming? Frontier Labs' Nex IA sounds almost like what I want IF ONLY it weren't a "future upgrade".

The vendor who gives me this first wins my money.

Re:Zero?

[shaitand]

look how long everybody and there dog was using mp3 before hardware manufacturers took the plung and started supporting it. Remember, these guys like to move slow... before mp3 the last standard for audio was compact disc (and it is certainly still not gone). Before compact disc it was tapes and before that those big black round things... i think they called them records.

ALL of these media types were in place for a very long time (by todays technological standards) and it is unlikely that now they have taken the dive to mp3 it will be changed within the next 5 years (read 5x the lifetime of vorbis/Ogg in it's current form being a dominant/viable technology).

Software can be changed relatively easily, the change is made once and it's copied repeatedly with existing technology. Hardware requires immense setup costs that must be recovered (2000000 fold) before the maker of the hardware is likely to make any real change to it.

IETF Standards Process

[Luminous Coward]

Before they became RFCs, RFC 3533 and RFC 3534 were IETF Internet-Drafts, respectively known as draft-pfeiffer-ogg-fileformat-02 and draft-walleij-ogg-mediatype-08. RFC 3533 is Informational and RFC 3534 is on the Standards Track.

[RFC3533] The Ogg Encapsulation Format Version 0, Silvia Pfeiffer, May 2003.
[RFC3534] The application/ogg Media Type, Linus Walleij, May 2003.