Posted by
michael
on from the tastes-great-less-filling dept.
Logic writes "The Oggbitstream format (used by OggVorbis) has been enshrined in RFC 3533, "The Ogg Encapsulation Format Version 0", for all you folks who won't look at something unless it has an RFC attached to it."
Re:Can't wait for
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 3, Informative
Anybody considering this should note that RFC1149 has been superceded by RFC2549, countering data loss to hawks and the like.
Re:Can't wait for
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 3, Funny
I turn my nose up at any psychoaustic scheme, especially now I have the remixed 7.1 surround Super-Audio CD version of 4'33... blows your mind, you can hear a pin drop! Especially with my new $20k speakers.
We can now get some more external player support. Especially in all the CD/MP3 players with upgradeable firmware and same with just MP3 players. I can't wait to be able to starting going only ogg.
Re:Hopefully
by
millette
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· Score: 4, Informative
Actually, Tremor, the integer codec, took care of that over a ago according to the changelog. And it's released under a bsd-like license.
Re:Hopefully
by
bobm17ch
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· Score: 5, Informative
I`m afraid this won`t affect player support much.
The device (pc/mp3player/whatever) still has to support the vorbis audio codec within the ogg wrapper.
Think of ogg as a bag of revels. The bag is standardised and easy to manipulate, but you just don`t know what you`re gonna get inside. Or even if you are gonna be able to handle it:) [1]
[1] I can`t decode the orange revels. My codec empties the contents of the buffer through the I/O.:p
Actually, Tremor, the integer codec, took care of that over a ago according to the changelog. And it's released under a bsd-like license.
Unfortunately Tremor isn't a one-size-fits-all. It's got nasty things like dynamic memory allocation all over the shop and still a rather large memory overhead. Actually, to be 100% compliant with the Vorbis 1.0 spec it's rather difficult to turn out a fast and small implementation (I've been trying).
At the moment I'm working on getting my own implementation working with an extremely small RAM overhead. It's by no means trivial getting it working on the DSPs you find in most MP3 players, and almost none of the source code to Tremor could be successfully ported to them either. I don't expect any of the source code I'm writing for my own implementation to be used as anything but a reference for writing a version to run on DSPs.
Of course, it would have been much more difficult even starting to write my own implementation were it not for freely available specs.
Re:Hopefully
by
i_am_nitrogen
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· Score: 3, Informative
Grip is absolutely the most awesome separate ripper I've ever used. It has database lookup, support for lame/bladeenc/oggenc and I think a few others, fully customizable file naming/directory structure, and the UI is actually pretty decent (once you get used to the "tabs-within-tabs" stuff that one of my former coworkers would always get really peeved about).
I'm not aware of any jukebox-like software for Linux, but with grip it's less necessary, as it sorts rips by album and artist if you want it to.
On a side note, there has also been a second RFC (RFC 3534) published regarding the application/ogg media type.
Isn't an RFC a request for comment?
by
unixwin
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· Score: 4, Informative
If so, what can one comment on the Ogg stream if its already well defined?
I thought RFC's were proposals for eliciting peer comments/reviews??
-- -- everyones not everybody and neither is everybody like everyone.
Re:Isn't an RFC a request for comment?
by
OverlordQ
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· Score: 4, Informative
When the RFCs were first produced, they had an almost 19th century
character to them - letters exchanged in public debating the merits
of various design choices for protocols in the ARPANET. As email and
bulletin boards emerged from the fertile fabric of the network, the
far-flung participants in this historic dialog began to make
increasing use of the online medium to carry out the discussion -
reducing the need for documenting the debate in the RFCs and, in some
respects, leaving historians somewhat impoverished in the process.
RFCs slowly became conclusions rather than debates.
Now if only it had a decent name
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 5, Funny
"OGG is better" "what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..." "OGG is about music. It's a file format, like MP3s, only better." "Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying" "It's OGG. O - G - G." "Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some halo on my x-boxe!!!"
Re:Now if only it had a decent name
by
Anonym1ty
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· Score: 5, Funny
Until I read more about it years ago, the name OGG always made me picture some wanna be Mac Addict listening to Mod files or something in a dark room prodding through OS7 while dreaming how elite he had become.
Re:Now if only it had a decent name
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 3, Informative
Funny you should bring this up... It's amazing how much more quality you can squeeze out of your EXISTING MP3 collection just by getting some better audio hardware. Before anyone starts taking my advice too far and goes to their local "overpriced audiophile extreme" store, here's how you can get GOOD sound INEXPENSIVELY:
* Get a good sound card. As a general rule, onboard audio stinks. The Audigy is popular - I personally don't like the way it sounds, so YMMV. Try the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz [epinions.com].
* Good speakers can be expensive. Good headphones aren't. Next time RadioShack has the Pro 35's [epinions.com] on sale, pick up a pair for $19.
* Try a few different MP3 players - quality varies. If you're a Windows user, don't waste your time with players that are basically just DirectShow front-ends, they'll ALL sound the same.
Re:Now if only it had a decent name
by
be-fan
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· Score: 5, Informative
Well, technically, the codec is Vorbis, which is a pretty cool name, if you ask me.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Re:Now if only it had a decent name
by
donglekey
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· Score: 3, Funny
"Compact Disc is better" "what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..." "Compact Disc is about music. It's a format, like records or tapes, only better." "Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying" "It's a Compact Disc, a Cee Dee." "Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some Techmo Bowl on my Nintendo!!!"
Re:Now if only it had a decent name
by
TummyX
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· Score: 4, Funny
Not to mention the logo which looks like a naked richard stallman hacking at a snake with an axe.
But nobody knows about ogg.
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 3, Insightful
Everybody has heard of mp3, and a lot people have heard of DivX;)/MPEG, but only nerds know about ogg. Its sounds stupid, it looks stupid and theres poor support for it in windows.
If media player dosen't play it, 99% of people won't use it.
-1, troll^H^H^Hue
Re:But nobody knows about ogg.
by
shaitand
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· Score: 4, Insightful
As a technician with the unfortunate experience to work with an extremely vast array of different windows users, I can confirm that most adults use whatever is put before them. Most teenagers use winamp. Most adults with teenage children use winamp as a consequence because that's what their teenager put before them. I hope this clarifies issues.
Generally I've found this to be a consistant pattern, teenagers use some app from the web (for better or worse) they've found and believe better to do the things they care about (otherwise they use what is in front of them. Adults follow a pretty consistant pattern of never looking for something better than what is put in their path unless they have an extremely compelling reason. And even then, they use the first solution to that reason that is put in front of them.. never really looking for the best solution.
Remember what an RFC is
by
bigberk
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· Score: 5, Informative
An RFC is a "Request For Comment", a technical specification document put forward by anybody. As wikipedia puts it, "Few RFCs are standards but all Internet standards are recorded in RFCs."
So what am I getting at is, realize that this hasn't been adopted as some Internet standard overnight. But it's very positive for the project to have such a well defined standards document in a familiar format!
Re:Remember what an RFC is
by
shaitand
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· Score: 3, Informative
Nope, is Request for Comment, started in the days when letters were passed around before email and other electronic forms of communication came into existance. Now an RFC is a generally a final definition rather than an introduction.
Why do the RFC page headers say "OGG" instead of "Ogg"? The headers in other RFCs aren't arbitrarily
capitalized. It's hard enough convincing people
that Ogg isn't an acronym without the RFC itself
making our work harder.
Can they fix this without issuing a new RFC
number?
Re:Ogg or OGG?
by
.com+b4+.storm
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· Score: 4, Informative
Why do the RFC page headers say "OGG" instead of "Ogg"? The headers in other RFCs aren't arbitrarily capitalized. It's hard enough convincing people that Ogg isn't an acronym without the RFC itself making our work harder.
Can they fix this without issuing a new RFC number?
4) How can I correct an error in a published RFC? You cannot! Once an RFC is published, it cannot be changed.
[...] For both technical and editorial errors, the RFC Editor provides a list of errata for published RFCs. This page contains a list of errors that have been reported to the RFC Editor.
-- "Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
Yes, that's what RFC stands for. Slashdot took over the commenting aspect of all RFCs, so please just post any comments you might have about RFC 3533 below.
-- You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Re:This is a good thing.
by
StrawberryFrog
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· Score: 4, Insightful
Why would apple want to put OGG support into the iPod? MP3 is the bait, AAC is the hook. OGG isn't even a player, and apple has no percentage in making it one.
By that I mean that MP3 support is important for market acceptance - you'll buy one for the MP3z; but AAC with all that DRM is important to the business model. Promoting another no-DRM format over AAC is not in Apple's interest.
That said, I'd love to be wrong. The day that Apple do idealistically put OGG support into Ipod, I will buy one. Or if another manufacturer makes a good one, I'll get that instead.
Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2003). All Rights Reserved.
...
This document and translations of it may be copied and furnished to others... provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are included on all such copies
Sooo... is distribution one of those reserved "All Rights" or not? I think "All Rights Reserved" can be considered one of the most overused catch phrases of the last 20 years. Not only is it used in a contradictory manner like here, but somehow the MPAA and RIAA and software industry seem to think they really can reserve ALL rights instead of just their exclusive ones.
I think "All Rights Reserved" can be considered one of the most overused catch phrases of the last 20 years.
Actually, according to copyright training I had a "well known large company" some years ago, that specific phrase is required in a couple of small countries. It probably is overused in the sense that people think it's required in more places than it actually is, but from what little I recall, trying to copyright something in a way that's valid all over is a rat's nest, Berne or no Berne.
Cute
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 5, Funny
"...for all you folks who won't look at something unless it has an RFC attached to it."
I can imagine Logic taking four long seconds to come up with something that sounded smart at the time. Here are some more gems that Logic has come up with:
"John Carmack reached 50,000 ft. with his X-Prize entry today, for those of you who don't take video games seriously unless their designer is a rocket scientist."
"NASA today announced proof of a black hole in a nearby galaxy, for those of you who won't watch Star Trek episodes with unproven singularities."
"Sun finally implemented generics in Java in its latest release, for those of you who only view web pages with applets written in languages with generics."
....It's the name.. that damn name!
by
aphexddb
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· Score: 3, Insightful
I just hate the name "Ogg Vorbis". I'm sure its a better format than mp3 but I just can't stand the name. "Format 3533" from the RFC would even be better.
-- "We're all mad here." --Cheshire Cat
Re:....It's the name.. that damn name!
by
TeknoHog
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· Score: 3, Insightful
At least Ogg Vorbis is a name, not a twisted abbreviation. MPEG 1 Layer III turned into MP3 because some genius thought there's a three character limit to filename 'extensions'. I bet "MP3" didn't sound very catchy when it first came about, but I didn't hear anyone whine about the name.
-- Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
I refuse to support Ogg until its streaming component adequately supports the Evil Bit. Slashdot has given this so-called "Evil Bit" RFC a little lip service in the past, but I think it's high time we brought it out into the open.
You're arguing something completely different. You start out talking about software, and then you move on to hardware. Software support for Vorbis has grown exponentially since its inception, and it's no longer a problem. Anything worth its salt supports Vorbis (even WMP, if you have the DirectShow filters, i think). Winamp, Foobar2000, XMMS, &c.. Not to mention all the CD-ripping programs support it. You can even download a plug-in that allows Windows XP to provide information on Vorbis files in Explorer, just as it does with MP3s and WMAs (artist, title, bitrate, &c.).
But you are right about the lack of hardware support. I have a couple friends that like Vorbis, and they would switch in a second, if only there was hardware support. And that seems to be the major problem. Without hardware support, Vorbis will probably remain a nerd's pipe dream forever. Hopefully, though, they're making progress on some hardware players. I think i read in an Ogg Traffic once that one of the iRiver models was tested to see if it could handle Tremor, and apparently it can, which is good news, i think. Whether or not iRiver is going to take the time to implement it is the problem. Aside from that, nobody seems to interested in Vorbis on the hardware side, except for the makers of those ugly iPod rip-offs.:p
Status of Ogg FLAC ?
by
wossName
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· Score: 3, Interesting
It has been pretty quiet since the announcement about the FLAC project joining Xiph.org. The Ogg project page still links to the FLAC SourceForge page. Does anyone know what the status of Ogg FLAC is ?
-- Someone is wrong on the Internet!
Re:Status of Ogg FLAC ?
by
Hatta
·
· Score: 4, Informative
Ogg FLAC works. Just use the --ogg flag to flac. What I can't figure out is why you'd want to.
Slashdot Mirror
RFC 3533 over RFC 1149! (perfect for those multi-year John Cage tunes)
sulli
RTFJ.
We can now get some more external player support. Especially in all the CD/MP3 players with upgradeable firmware and same with just MP3 players. I can't wait to be able to starting going only ogg.
It's only a matter of time before Verisign decides to patent it.
This is great, well done to all the xiph guys. Remember to show your support by tax-deductibly donating.
If so, what can one comment on the Ogg stream if its already well defined?
I thought RFC's were proposals for eliciting peer comments/reviews??
-- everyones not everybody and neither is everybody like everyone.
"OGG is better"
"what? We're talking about music, not whatever that is..."
"OGG is about music. It's a file format, like MP3s, only better."
"Okay, dude, I'm sorry, I just keep missing the first thing you're saying"
"It's OGG. O - G - G."
"Dude, that is the most retarded name I've ever heard of... let's play some halo on my x-boxe!!!"
Everybody has heard of mp3, and a lot people have heard of DivX ;)/MPEG, but only nerds know about ogg. Its sounds stupid, it looks stupid and theres poor support for it in windows.
If media player dosen't play it, 99% of people won't use it.
-1, troll^H^H^Hue
An RFC is a "Request For Comment", a technical specification document put forward by anybody. As wikipedia puts it, "Few RFCs are standards but all Internet standards are recorded in RFCs."
So what am I getting at is, realize that this hasn't been adopted as some Internet standard overnight. But it's very positive for the project to have such a well defined standards document in a familiar format!
Can they fix this without issuing a new RFC number?
Dear RFC,
Yes, that's what RFC stands for. Slashdot took over the commenting aspect of all RFCs, so please just post any comments you might have about RFC 3533 below.
Sincerely,
Letter
and hope they don't think that's a pokiemon.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Why would apple want to put OGG support into the iPod? MP3 is the bait, AAC is the hook. OGG isn't even a player, and apple has no percentage in making it one.
By that I mean that MP3 support is important for market acceptance - you'll buy one for the MP3z; but AAC with all that DRM is important to the business model. Promoting another no-DRM format over AAC is not in Apple's interest.
That said, I'd love to be wrong. The day that Apple do idealistically put OGG support into Ipod, I will buy one. Or if another manufacturer makes a good one, I'll get that instead.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
...
Distribution of this memo is unlimited.
...
Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2003). All Rights Reserved.
...
This document and translations of it may be copied and furnished to others ... provided that the above copyright notice and this paragraph are included on all such copies
Sooo... is distribution one of those reserved "All Rights" or not? I think "All Rights Reserved" can be considered one of the most overused catch phrases of the last 20 years. Not only is it used in a contradictory manner like here, but somehow the MPAA and RIAA and software industry seem to think they really can reserve ALL rights instead of just their exclusive ones.
"The Ogg Encapsulation Format Version 0"
Version 0?? I've heard of version 0.1, but never version 0. Does this mean it hasn't been started yet?
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
As you wish. CDex has native CD->Ogg ripping support.
No, thats the way it is by design.
IETF doesn't standardize anything untill it is finished, complete with reference implementations.
Heres a good writeup: The Internet Engineering Task Force
Actually, according to copyright training I had a "well known large company" some years ago, that specific phrase is required in a couple of small countries. It probably is overused in the sense that people think it's required in more places than it actually is, but from what little I recall, trying to copyright something in a way that's valid all over is a rat's nest, Berne or no Berne.
"...for all you folks who won't look at something unless it has an RFC attached to it."
I can imagine Logic taking four long seconds to come up with something that sounded smart at the time. Here are some more gems that Logic has come up with:
"John Carmack reached 50,000 ft. with his X-Prize entry today, for those of you who don't take video games seriously unless their designer is a rocket scientist."
"NASA today announced proof of a black hole in a nearby galaxy, for those of you who won't watch Star Trek episodes with unproven singularities."
"Sun finally implemented generics in Java in its latest release, for those of you who only view web pages with applets written in languages with generics."
I just hate the name "Ogg Vorbis". I'm sure its a better format than mp3 but I just can't stand the name. "Format 3533" from the RFC would even be better.
"We're all mad here." --Cheshire Cat
I refuse to support Ogg until its streaming component adequately supports the Evil Bit. Slashdot has given this so-called "Evil Bit" RFC a little lip service in the past, but I think it's high time we brought it out into the open.
I'm not Seth Finkelstein. I still speak the truth.
For the love of $Deity, it's Ogg !! Not OGG, Ogg! Capital O, small g, small g!
But you are right about the lack of hardware support. I have a couple friends that like Vorbis, and they would switch in a second, if only there was hardware support. And that seems to be the major problem. Without hardware support, Vorbis will probably remain a nerd's pipe dream forever. Hopefully, though, they're making progress on some hardware players. I think i read in an Ogg Traffic once that one of the iRiver models was tested to see if it could handle Tremor, and apparently it can, which is good news, i think. Whether or not iRiver is going to take the time to implement it is the problem. Aside from that, nobody seems to interested in Vorbis on the hardware side, except for the makers of those ugly iPod rip-offs. :p
It has been pretty quiet since the announcement about the FLAC project joining Xiph.org. The Ogg project page still links to the FLAC SourceForge page. Does anyone know what the status of Ogg FLAC is ?
Someone is wrong on the Internet!