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What if SCO is Right?

b17bmbr writes " What if SCO is right. Bruce Perens was quoted with this scenario. "it's entirely possible that SCO was inadvertently distributing its own proprietary Unix code in its version of Linux. In that case, SCO would've already released its Unix source code into open source". But here's the catch: Does this validate Microsoft's view of a "viral GPL"?"

40 of 571 comments (clear)

  1. Probably not by Blaine+Hilton · · Score: 4, Interesting
    If SCO really is correct and this does become an issue of viral GPL, then it could possibly give MS a boost. However I personally think that the companies behind open source will still be pushing it, its only the companies that are currently thinking about open source business models that this may effect. I think its just more junk propaganda though.

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  2. It doesn't matter, the damage is done by micron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Either way, the spectre of "intellectual property" has been brought up to Corporate America. Boards and CEO's who get gunshy when the litigation is aimed at them are going to be skeptical about liability and open source software.

    The point has been brought to the board rooms, and I don't know see what it can do other than hurt the cause.

    1. Re:It doesn't matter, the damage is done by WEFUNK · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The point has been brought to the board rooms, and I don't know see what it can do other than hurt the cause.

      I disagree entirely. If SCO wins, closed source loses and open source wins.

      SCO has sued IBM and given them an ultimatum that threatens to cut off the closed source AIX licence from IBM and possibly from their entire installed base of users as well. While it may be unlikely that SCO could (or would) pull the plug on these systems, the possibility has certainly been raised.

      In doing so, SCO has reminded managers and boards that their dependence on third party closed source programs exposes them to a certain level of risk. In the past, firms could reduce this liability by writing their own software, purchasing the source code, or through carefully worded contracts. But SCO has made it clear to industry that even perpetual and irrevocable contracts like the one between IBM and SCO aren't bulletproof. Linux and other open source programs represent a compelling alternative for these companies looking to reduce their exposure to the SCO's of the world.

      And so what if the Linux kernel has some of their proprietary code in it? Simply point out the offending code and the community will build a work-around. While the corporate world sits waiting years for proprietary bug fixes that never come, a quick and effective solution by the community will help deflate a major fear about open source.

      So, if the community steps up to the challenge by promoting the benefits of open code and by demonstrating the effectiveness of the distributed developer base, the SCO lawsuit could become the poster boy case for open source. And the case for open source is made even stronger if SCO wins their case. And either way, SCO is a dead duck.

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  3. Please don't support the FUD by RoLi · · Score: 3, Interesting
    It's so damned obvious that this is just a FUD-campaign.

    Why doesn't SCO tell us what part of the source are in violation? Simply because these parts don't exist.

    SCO is either paid for spraying FUD (by MS) or will be payed for stopping spraying FUD (by IBM, simply because the damage this FUD is inflicting is higher than the sum SCO will want to shut up) - or both.

    So please don't consider SCO seriously, they don't have a case.

  4. Yes and SO WHAT by Crashmarik · · Score: 2, Interesting

    GNU is a viral license. If you incorporate GNU code into your projects the price you pay is the loss of control the projects.

    The question is who's OX does this gore ?

    1. End users ? Not at all they arent distributing anything and they aren't selling software. If your General Steel or Home Depot you really don't care that your word processor is GNU or not.

    2. Developers

    A. Those that are selling to quote mass markets
    Yes it affects these people alot. Oddly enough though SCO is likely to be the first of a very small number to be affected. It doesn't affect open source companies that went into their business eyes open, just really foolish companies. Its not going to affect a company like windriver, SUSE, redhat. It could affect A CA, or an ADP. These are companies that seem to operate on a captive customer model, buying smaller software companies then milking their customers for all their worth.

    B. Those that are working on internal use projects
    The project isnt being distributed at all. The code doesnt get distributed. Bang simple no harm no foul. In the special case of governments the code might be required to made public as it is public property, no matter how its generated.

    Yes GNU and Open source is viral, but as far as costs go, the cost of being viral is very small, compared spending more on software then you do on hardware.

  5. Re:MS view not validated by Col.+Klink+(retired) · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just look at what MS was claiming. They won't let third parties develop GPL code using MS tools because they claim that will make the MS tools GPL.

    Unless MS is somehow claiming that all code developed with MS tools automaticaly belongs to MS, their claim is absurd.

    --

    -- Don't Tase me, bro!

  6. have you ready many EULAs lately? by Samari711 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    sometimes they do claim it's theirs....

    --

    I never said I was smart, I just said I was smarter than you

  7. Re:Completely wrong. by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Non-disclosure means that any company which is curious to know what they are legally responsible for has to agree not to let anyone else know. That means, basically, that if they tell you what code they want you to pay for, you can't throw it out and develope replacement code: By agreeing to their terms of telling you what they want you to pay for, you agree to pay for it.

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  8. SCO is liable for the GPL violations since 2002 by Error27 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Statements made by SCO CEO Darl McBride and senior vice president Chris
    Sontag indicate that SCO has been illegally selling and distributing software
    that is in violation of the GPL. SCO first became aware of the problem late
    in 2002, but has done nothing to protect customers or inform them about which
    parts SCO distributed illegally. The company claims this information would
    damaged their lawsuit against IBM.

    SCO did not stop selling the infringing software until May 14 2003, and is
    still distributing it from ftp.caldera.com.

    Customers who purchased or downloaded SCO software demand the following
    things:

    1) A complete refund of the purchase price for any software SCO distributed
    illegally.

    2) Any infringing source code or intellectual property must be revealed so it
    can be replaced. Any source code or intellectual property that infringes and
    is owned by SCO must be released under the GPL or relevant license.

    3) If SCO wins or settles its lawsuit with IBM, a portion of the money must
    be returned to SCO customers who were put in legal jeopardy because SCO did
    nothing protect them.

    Many claim that the lawsuit against SCO is simply a bid to be purchased. If
    the company is purchased, the buyer may be liable instead.

  9. The Viral GPL by hillct · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Of course the GPL is viral. There should be no question of this, but the question one should ask is "Is that a bad thing?". This was Stallman's goal. He wanted to screw up the software business model, which he succeeded in doing, but with the vary positive side effect of cuilding a cooperative culture of open software development with a fully functional service based business model behind it.

    Clearly the GPL has benefitted many people and businesses. The fact that Microsoft isn't collectively smart enough to figure out a business model that will allow them to benefit from it isn't anyone's problem than theirs, and certainly doesn't make the GPL a bad thing.

    The GPL established a structure where developers can leverage the vast amounts of work released by others for the relitively cheap buy-in of licensing the nw derivative code using the same license. This is not an unreasonable obligation by any streach of the imagination. As for it being viral, if you don't agree to the terms of the license, you are free to avoid building your work on top of code licensed in this way. In the case of SCO, of they were so neglegent as to fail to observer the license constraints they were adopting, through contributing to GPL-licensed software, this is their own fault. This does not in any way reflect poorly on the license. It is written in plain language, and the text of the license represents possibly the most widely distributed and available legal contract in history.

    The nature of the GPL supports a specific development and business model which is inconsistant with certain other models. If Microsoft, SCO and others wish to benefit from software developed under this model, they must accept the simple and streight-forward license terms.

    For an entertaining afternoon, print out and compare the GPL to the Microsoft .NET Studio EULA. It speaks for itself.

    --CTH

    --

    --Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
  10. Gentlemen, you fscked up. by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Hmmm... It sounds like Microsoft's FUD definition of a "viral" license, but here's what I have to say about that: You're an electrician and you wire light switches in your town. One day, you get a helper and you teach him everything you know. Now he's doing a better job at it than you, so he's getting all the work and you're screwed. Is teaching a "viral" act? After all, the knowledge is now duplicated?

    In order to support his family, the electrician needs to wire light switches all day, every day. Electricians don't wire one switch and live off it forever for the virtue that the switch has provided a solution to a problem. However, management at companies like SCO don't realize that software is the same way. At SCO, they made some breakthrough 20 years ago and think that they need to continue getting paid for it forever. I'm sorry to say this, SCO, but like the electrician, you need to continuously make breakthroughs, you need to continuously make new solutions... you have to stay ahead of everyone else through continuously improving good management, continuously improving good project planning, continuously improving good software... continuously improving EVERYTHING. You can't write some "hello world" 20 years ago and charge every Linux user 200 bucks "royalty" for it now. It's yesteryear's news. It's stale. Nobody cares. And quite frankly, your code probably sucks anyway and will be replaced faster than shit going through a tin horn. Try firing your stupid management and putting people in place who will encourage new ideas and new development, and harbor success through good products and good marketing, instead of trying to weasel a profit through litigation, whining like a bunch of babies and making your company look pretty damn stupid. Hell, you people should quit your jobs at SCO and go work for Microsoft. At least over there your actions will fit in better with the mission statement.

    What do I have to say about the "viral" GPL? Like any other action that you can make in life, you have to think before you act and you have to be responsible for your actions. At SCO, "Gentlemen, you fucked up." And now you and your all-Godly shareholders will suffer the consequences of those actions... NOT THE LINUX COMMUNITY.

  11. If they're right by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's a set back, and a minor one at that. The code they have (what they didn't give away when they released their distro and what hasn't had the patent expire on it) will be pulled from Linux, rewritten to be patent free, and we'll all move on. The point is this doesn't effect the spirit and ideals of free software at all. Neither does SCO have a patent on computing as a whole.

    On the other had this might kill Redhat/SuSe/Mandrake. Yes, that would be bad. But unlike the traditional software world where a company dying means their product goes by-by, we've got the source. Heck, the core members of Redhat/SuSe/Mandrake could probably just start up another company doing the same thing. Again a set back, but not the end.

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  12. Evolution of SCO claims by gmuslera · · Score: 4, Interesting
    At first, they claimed that IBM violates their Unix Licence by adding something of Unix source code to Linux. That was only something about violating a license, and had very little to do with linux, GPL, or Caldera selling linux all this time. For this point I can't say that SCO or IBM will win, and if IBM should stop selling AIX, as the point could be how was written the ibm-sco contract. As far things were in this direction, they were not doing nothing extremely wrong.

    But then the focus switches to Linux, how it could have inside "stolen" code, and how everyone could be violating their IP... and there the things are more darker for SCO. Either the offending code could be replaced, or they validated the code addition releasing that code with the GPL license, or they are plain wrong. In any case, I hope the bribe they got to do all of this is enough to live the rest of their lives because no one will buy something from them ever again

  13. Hey, he stole my post! by akorvemaker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I posted this same idea 2 weeks ago!

    So, now can I sue him for stealing my IP? ;-)

  14. Re:Yes it would hurt their case by bstadil · · Score: 4, Interesting
    You DONT give out evidence before court in a IP type case.. thats just stupid.

    Sure you do. If you don't tell the other party then it will not be admitted as evidence. Second as pointed out multiple times, You have a DUTY to mitigate damages. By not publishing the alledgedly offending portion, coupled with the fact the code is out in the open, prevents them from collecting damages from anybody but possible IBM.

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  15. Re:Completely wrong. by SwedishChef · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A "non-disclosure agreement" is a contract and the terms of the contract determine what can and cannot be disclosed by one (or both) of the parties. I haven't seen the terms of the SCO non-disclosure agreement but whether or not it requires you to pay them regardless of your ability to reduce your liability by removing or re-writing the code would depend upon how the agreement is written. It seems to me, and IAMAL, that SCO's claims to be "damaged" is reduced if SCO refuses to let anyone know what the damage is, let alone fix it.

    Let's take an injury claim. If you help me paint my house and fall off the ladder and get hurt, then I am probably responsible. However, if you won't let me know what injuries you incurred then I cannot repair the damage. If you then take me to court and demand punitive damages to teach me a lesson for not fixing you, I can claim that you never gave me the chance to help.

    If you make me sign a non-disclosure agreement that stipulates that I must pay you regardless of whether I could easily remedy the damage, then that seems pretty unfair too. In the case of our painting injury, you could show me that your arm was broken but then claim (with supporting "expert" testimony, that only a heart replacement would truly fix you up and by signing the non-disclosure I would be obligated to pay for that. Nevermind that an emergency room doc could set the arm and cast it and you'd be fine in six weeks.

    Any company that would sign such a non-disclosure agreement (if it were couched in the terms you describe) would deserve what it gets.

    It seems to me that just the act of refusing to allow anyone to see the infringing material casts SCO in the light of trying to maximize damage to their intellectual property rights. In other words, rather than allowing it to be fixed, they want to take it to court and assign a monetary amount to the "damage" and add punitive consequences.

    --
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  16. They'll have to disclose it before court anyway. by allankim · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If I'm not mistaken both parties will be required to disclose their evidence *before* court during the discovery process. To me SCO's statements about revealing their evidence only "in a court setting" sound as clueless as they are belligerent. Perhaps SCO's backers dream at night of David Boies confronting Samuel Palmisano with a stack of greenbar paper in some Salt Lake City courtroom, badgering him with: "How do you explain these diff files?!?!?!?" If so they should cut down on the TV.

  17. Re:Yes it would hurt their case by DavidinAla · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It is NOT the purpose of a trial to "discover the truth and deal with it." It is the purpose of a trial to determine whether a specific set of charges brought by the plaintiff against the defendent are true (and, if they're true, what relief the plaintiff should get for the damage he has suffered). A civil trial is not a "truth commission." It only deals with a fairly narrow set of facts. When one party to the suit knows that it has the facts on its side, it KNOWS that the other side is going to try to present those facts in a totally different light or lie in order to interpret the facts in a different way. That means that neither party wants to give away its strategy or interpretation of the facts until legally required. It would be like the general of an invading army faxing his battle plan to the army he was attacking. It would be stupid.

  18. Re:Slightly OT: Linking static libs w/GPL'd code? by John+Hasler · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What happens if you're a software company that buys some closed source static libraries from another company and link them to your proprietary product and sell the result to customers and later discover the library company included a third company's proprietary code without telling you?

    > The GPL seems like a nasty can of worms...

    Closed-source is a nasty can of worms. You have only the vendor's word as to what is in it. If they are incompetent or crooked you can get smacked from behind at any moment.

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  19. Re:Yes it would hurt their case by DavidinAla · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Yes, you have to disclose evidence to the other side, but, no, you don't have to disclose it on a timetable that suits people on Slashdot. As for mitigating damages, they are fulfilling that requirement by sending notices to people telling them that some of the code in Linux is their property and that they don't have a license to use it. A plaintiff is NOT required to litigate a case in public from the moment he files it.

  20. Re:Yes it would hurt their case by davebo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To answer your questions, no - I have no idea where the case stands legally, nor do I know what depositions might have been taken or what evidence has been exchanged.

    And yes - you're correct, SCO's lawyers are going to want to keep things close to the vest as long as they possibly can, so that would be a good reason not to present the offending code.

    My primary point was that the original poster was incorrect in saying you don't give out evidence before you get to court. My saying "they lose nothing by presenting the relevant IP" was, I'll grant you, a stretch.

  21. SCO wont be bound by the GPL licence by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I dont think there's much of a case to support SCO being held to the requirments of the GPL in their "released software". They were inadvertently duped into it, and thus cant be held accountable.



    For example, IBM markets linux. Of course they did not write all of the code. Now suppose a devious linux developer were to insert say, all of some propriatey IBM application into the kernel code. If IBM does not check the code line by line they wont know it when they go to release the next edition of their variant of Linux that includes this new kernel. Thus IBM would have been duped in to releasing their own proprietary code. No reasonable person would think they were bound by the GPL.

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  22. Fixing code doesn't change the suit by frdmfghtr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    LINDON, Utah-March 7, 2003-The SCO® Group (SCO) (Nasdaq: SCOX), the owner of the UNIX operating system, announced today that it has filed legal action against IBM (NYSE:IBM) in the State Court of Utah, for misappropriation of trade secrets, tortious interference, unfair competition and breach of contract. The complaint alleges that IBM made concentrated efforts to improperly destroy the economic value of UNIX, particularly UNIX on Intel, to benefit IBM's new Linux services business.


    http://ir.sco.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=10 32 73

    What seems to be fogotten here is what the lawsuit really is about. It is not simply about UNIX code being used in the Linux kernel, as seems to be the opinion of the vocal majority here. The suit alleges that IBM committed breech of contract and misappropriation of trade secrets. The alleged inclusion of UNIX source code by IBM into the Linux kernel is the EFFECT of IBM's alleged actions--it is simply EVIDENCE.

    Removing the evidence does not change the fact that a crime was committed. Sure, the Linux kernel could be rewritten as needed if there is UNIX code inside, but then you need to update each and every single machine using the violating kernel and destroy all copies of the kernel that have the code incorporated in them.

    Like a sign on my profesor's door says: "Binaries may die, but source code lives forever." If the code is out there, it will be out there forever.

    --
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  23. Real Lesson To Corps: GPL Designed Just 4U by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    There is a much better article in InternetNews.com here. They bothered to interview Moglen on this very issue:"From the moment SCO distributed the Linux kernel under GPL, they licensed the use. Always. That's what our license says."

    Moglen also points out FSF owns the rights to IBM's Linux distribution, not IBM: "In fact, he said, when SCO first filed its suit against IBM, he approached SCO's lawyers because it is the Free Software Foundation and not IBM which holds the copyright to the Linux distribution IBM created, Linux for S/360. IBM created the Linux distribution but released it under the GPL and signed the copyright over to the Free Software Foundation."

    What court will reward that kind of behavior, not to mention their refusal to show their code so any violations can be quickly fixed? I'm a paralegal and have been covering this on my blog Groklaw , if you want more info and links all in one place.

    The real lesson for corporations will be: the GPL was designed to prevent smarmy corporate behavior. Don't use it unless you agree to its terms. If anyone considers it a loss to lose businesses like SCO...

  24. Re:Yes it would hurt their case by the+gnat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If SCO were really concerned about losing IP, they could have discreetly contacted the parties in question, demonstrated their case, and maybe worked out some kind of licensing agreement.

    My recollection is that their original claim was that they did contact IBM first, and after looking at the claims IBM told them to go fuck themselves.

    However, it's hard to tell what the SCO management is thinking, because they've changed their story so many times that it's really looking more and more like a shakedown - but at the same time, it'd be even worse for Linux if their bullshit turns out to be true. They started out by going after IBM, and making those stupid bicycle/car comparisons; next they threatened other Linux vendors, claiming that parts of SCO's IP were in other pieces of the OS besides the kernel; then they claimed that the Linux kernel itself has SCO's source code, and now they even claim that this was the case before IBM started doing Linux development. I don't think this has helped their case much.

    SCO's original complaint was actually sort of vague; now that they've moved on to claiming that specific bits of code have been lifted by non-IBM developers, they just sound incompetent for letting this go on for so long while they continued to distribute Linux. In the worst case, if the claims hold up, they're a bunch of incompetent morons. Either way, they've now backed themselves up against a wall - this leaves them wide open to a countersuit if they can't back up their words.

  25. Re:Yes it would hurt their case by bstadil · · Score: 4, Interesting
    telling them that some of the code in Linux is their property and that they don't have a license to use it.

    A blanket statement like that has no legal value, as it does not allow for the alledged offender to take any specific actions.

    If they want anyone to stop using Linux they need an injunction, and in asking for that they need to be specific.

    The judge will not grant this as they clearly have shown that the potential damage in granting this is much higher than not doing. There is no irreparable damages since they were years late in doing this.

    Second if the judge grants it, they will most likely be asked to post a bond, much higher than they can afford.

    Thirdly: If they are not already dead-meat, They surely will be when the suits for damages starts rolling in.

    --
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  26. Re:About as viral as accidentally giving away secr by Spudley · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If they did release their code as GPL, it was their choice.

    Ummm.... lets see now....

    1. Caldera releases a distribution of Linux.
    2. Caldera buys SCO.
    3. Caldera now has access to the source for both OSs.
    4. After a few months comparing the code, they find some that matches.
    5. As soon as they find them, they drop their Linux product, and launch a lawsuit.

    Given that set of circumstances, I can't see how they made a choice to release the code.

    Of course, there is still an argument to be had as to whether that really was the sequence of events, or whether there really is any of their code in Linux, but I don't think there's any scenario where they actually chose to release their code: if the above sequence is right, they did everything possible to limit the damage once they found out, and if it isn't correct, then they probably haven't got a case.

    --
    (Spudley Strikes Again!)
  27. Non Disclosure of evidence by nurb432 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the understanding they had entered a motion to have the case sealed..

    While its true they will have to release evidence in court to the other party as part of due process, ( though I originally thought that only applied to criminal cases, not civil, but ill take everyone's word for it that I'm wrong ) they don't have to release to US.. and if its sealed, they CANT...

    and I still say that would hurt their case.. ( even if they are nuts )

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    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  28. SCO's Hurdles by Angry+Pixie · · Score: 2, Interesting

    SCO has some steep hurdles to overcome still. There must first be a legal finding of fact showing that Linux does contain proprietary UNIX code.

    Next, there must be a finding of fact showing that said code was introduced into Linux without authorization from the then copyright holders; or that withstanding; said code was introduced after SCO became the legal copyright owner and without SCO's authorization.

    Finally, if SCO's case can survive those two steps, SCO would need to quash any claim that it released its proprietary code to the GPL when it knowingly produced and distributed its own Linux product. On the surface, it will immediately appear that this is what SCO did. To defeat such a claim, SCO will need to show that it did not know and had no reason to know that Linux contained proprietary code owned by SCO or anyone else.

    This will be an unconvincing argument however, since by having access to the full Linux sourcecode, SCO had legal notice.

    An interesting final twist. If all these findings of fact are met, the case can proceed; and if SCO wins, SCO will immediately make itself liable for copyright violations if Linux contains any proprietary code owned by another party. Poetic justice...

  29. The fall of Corel by Brett+Glass · · Score: 2, Interesting
    That's not how it happened.

    Corel's situation worsened to the point where it was forced to suffer the humiliation of accepting bailout money from Microsoft (a direct competitor). Why? Because it sunk so many resources into Linux... and then could not get a positive return on its investment due to the GPL. Corel competes with Microsoft in many, many markets -- to accept money from Gates was the ultimate capitulation. It only took Microsoft's blood money because it would have failed completely if it did not.

    Corel's embrace of Linux was a key factor in the company's decline. It couldn't differentiate Linux itself from competitors' offerings due to the GPL, which required it to give its work away. So, it floundered. Had it based a product on NetBSD, OpenBSD (which would have been a great choice since it's also Canadian), or FreeBSD, it would have done much better.

  30. Common code doesn't mean Linux took from SCO by jkorty · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just because (and if) there is common code between Linux and SCO UNIX doesn't mean that the Linux camp 'borrowed' the code. It could have just as easily been the other way around. In fact, given the public nature of Linux code and the hidden nature of SCO's, that is more likely to be what happened.

  31. Re:Really.. by kardar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I figured out that Microsoft won't buy SCO for the UNIX license. At first, it seems that it might be good idea, especially if all of the UNIX flavors would have to pay license fees to Microsoft. It looks like SCO is EITHER trying to get bought OR trying to assert their IP rights. Is it possible they are doing both?

    Is it possible that 1)SCO is right about IP rights concerning Linux AND 2)SCO will continue to collect on UNIX licenses AND 3)If they sell out, that whoever buys them will benefit from UNIX and Linux IP rights?

    Microsoft Windows was sort of designed from the ground up; it does not have as rich of a history as UNIX - Microsoft feels strongly (or at least they claim) that their OS's are superior to UNIX.

    The AT&T v Berkeley case stands as a precedent; and no one is going to feel sorry (poor baby) about Microsoft when similar challenges occur. Given those facts, it seems very likely to me that Microsoft will not buy SCO. If Microsoft buys SCO, it might end up making things harder for itself in the long run. Besides, if SCO does have a case, Linux should be able to break free by changing the code (if that's the case).

    I have a feeling that IBM will prevail. Maybe IBM should consider buying the UNIX rights from SCO, but not the company? That would be interesting.

  32. viral gpl? by abe+ferlman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But here's the catch: Does this validate Microsoft's view of a "viral GPL"?"

    We've been through this before, it's a vaccine, not a virus.

    It keeps companies from mixing in their proprietary bits then claiming a proprietary interest in the whole work just because they contributed a piece.

    This was no accident; SCO deliberately distributed their code under the GPL. They didn't contract the GPL like a virus, they deliberately and knowingly ingested it like a pill. Now they're whining because they weren't good enough to compete so they're delaying their imminent demise through the court system.

    If the GPL does indeed stop SCO from pursuing this course of action, it won't prove Microsoft's point. Rather, it will prove that the GPL is doing exactly what it was intended to: embrace? sure. extend? great! extinguish? GO FUCK YOURSELF.

    If

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  33. Re:MS view not validated by ray-auch · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yep - MS does not give a blanket redistribution licence for windows libraries - and therefore you are NOT ALLOWED to redistribute them. Moreover recent versions of windows will actively prevent system libraries being installed by applications - (only allowed by OS service pack / hotfix installs).

    MS does give redistribution licence for a lot of stuff - but not everything, eg. not that long ago if your app used features of the new comctl32.dll the only way to legally ship it was to ship IE (which installed it), as comctl32.dll was not redistributable any other way. Yes you could pull the dll out of system32 and put it in your install, yes it (sometimes) worked, but it was NOT legal to ship.

    Note that NONE of this gives MS any rights over your code by the act of linking to theirs - they only have rights over their code. The SAME applies to the GPL - the readline authors don't have any rights over your code just becuase you link to it. HOWEVER, in either case IF you want to distribute someone elses code, THEN you have to follow terms agreed with them.

    Also, if you link to two libraries with conflicting terms (like eg. MS saying you may not ship source code, and GPL saying you must) then you can't legally ship. That applies to any two licences - GPL or not is irrelevant - if they conflict they conflict.

    NB: all the above is assuming distributing a statically-linked executable, which clearly constitutes distributing the linked components.

    Once we get into dynamic linking, or indeed the GPL's system libraries exception, then it gets a whole lot more complicated - and in fact I also think that the FSF position in those areas doesn't hold up. The GPL was written for static linked (all there was then) C programs on early commercial unix, and in that context it works ok - start trying to stretch it over the full range of current development languages/environments etc. and it quickly looks pretty thin IMO. GPL v3 is supposed to address all this - and funnily enough it seems to be taking them an awfully long time to write...

  34. Microsoft isn't stupid. by dmaxwell · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First off, SCO has footbulleted their IP seventeen different ways from sunday. This is just a rehash of the BSD legal baggage and it won't avail SCO anything against the likes of IBM. Two, they're claiming damages without revealing where in the gigs of code that make up a Linux distro where the problem is. Three, they picked on IBM which as someone else pointed out is like starting a fistfight with a train. Fourth, they've distributed this code themselves for YEARS; they just found out about this now. Fifth, what calls itself SCO was a Linux company that bought the old SCO IP from what now calls itself Tarantella....this does not look good. Sixth, Micorsoft is barred by past legal actions from touching that very codebase. There was a very loud legal debacle from their Xenix days. SCO's IP basically started out as Xenix.

    SCO's baggage can easily hurt MS as much as it can help it. Such a move would be blatantly anticompetitive and they can still get in hot water for such things in Europe. SCO is like a plague ship at this point. I don't see MS getting anywhere near it. Some have surmised that MS is behind SCO's current frothing at the mouth. I don't think they're that dumb. The fallout if/when they're caught would be spectacular.

  35. Re:Really.. by ibbey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I figured out that Microsoft won't buy SCO for the UNIX license. At first, it seems that it might be good idea, especially if all of the UNIX flavors would have to pay license fees to Microsoft.

    You're missing one significant possibility, though. Depending on the severity of the infringement (a big unknown), MS could buy SCO and use it against the Linux/Unix world. If they hold the license, they can refuse to grant licenses to anyone, making it illegal to sell Unix.

    Of course, this would be a blatant violation of antitrust law but, at least under the Bush administration, that isn't something they're worried about.

  36. Re:Yes it would hurt their case by MyHair · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If SCO were really concerned about losing IP, they could have discreetly contacted the parties in question, demonstrated their case, and maybe worked out some kind of licensing agreement.
    Weren't they the ones that offered UNIX licenses for US$99 to Linux users after first making the claim? I think they did try to 'work out some kind of licensing', but they didn't offer any proof of why end users should do it.

    Speaking of which, everyone running any version of Microsoft Windows can send me US$99 and I won't sue you if I ever decide to sue everyone because they uh, might have some infringing code, yeah, that's the ticket. :-)

    BTW, in a worst case scenario I wonder how practical it would be for an end user to quit using the Linux kernel and insert the FreeBSD kernel with the Linux environment add-ins until the alleged "infringing code" would be removed.

  37. Re:Why SCO might be holding out on evidence by no_code_charlie · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Maybe, but what kind of lame-ass company counsel would advise his client to pay off on a copyright infringement claim where: 1) the claimed infringed matter is unknown; 2) no known certificate of copyright registration has been issued with respect to the claimed infinrged matter; 3) no copyright is claimed in the claimed infringed matter in any pending litigation, and; 4) the claimed infringed matter was, at least on its face, distributed under the GPL? Any company who pays on such a claim deserves to go belly up and any lawyer who advises same should be shot twice (obligatory bullet plus one).

  38. it was about some libraries?? by leuk_he · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Weren't they the ones that offered UNIX licenses for US$99 to Linux users after first making the claim? I think they did try to 'work out some kind of licensing', but they didn't offer any proof of why end users should do it.

    the inquirer article You have to take the inquirere with a grain of salt but it says:

    "The libraries, which perform basic operations such as opening files, are currently licensed for use with with SCO's OpenServer and UnixWare Unix variants, but not with the UnitedLinux distribution that the company sells.

    If the libraries are used in conjunction with a program called Linux-ABI, they make migration easier for companies moving from Unix to Linux and so it is believed that SCO is keen to make such customers pay for the privilege.

    The SCO Group refused to confirm or deny the move"

  39. Re:The GPL harms yet another business by Larthallor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The GPL did not harm SCO. SCO management took a gamble that it could compete. It turns out that it couldn't. That's just business; it happens every day. The GPL doesn't enter into it.

    As you allude, the GPL is not designed to make lots of money for the licensors. This is not a bad thing, and I'm not sure why you are so offended by this fact. If you want to make money and can make a product that can allow you or your employer to do so, go for it. If not, stop. There's no use crying because all the bad people that freely volunteer their time and energy to making software for it's own sake and for that of their peers do a good enough job to make your product irrelevant. You do not have the right to make a profit, only the right to try.

    In terms of history being littered with failed companies that "attempted to deal in GPLed software", well, duh!

    1. Any business niche is littered with corporate corpses. You think Linux is bad? Try opening a restaraunt!

    2. If you want to succeed in business, try selling something at a price that people will pay. Let's see, do I:
    A) Pay big money to tie myself to a company whose core value is to take as much of my money as it can
    B) Download some software for free and hire people (who I can replace if they suck) to help me when I can't figure it out for myself?

    If you there aren't enough people willing to do A .... well, you figure it out!