Slashdot Mirror
DVD Recording - Is There a Winner Yet?
Rob writes "Ok, so I've finally gotten my TiVo configured to let me extract and archive video, now I'm wondering what is my best solution? I currently have a CDR that I've been able to use to save both VCD and SVCD. Unfortunately I have a very old DVD player that will only play VCD's. So I decided that it's time to look at recording to DVD, but what is the right answer? Has any format won? I just got back from Fry's and I could get either -R/-RW or +R/+RW and there were even drives that did all of the formats. This is all well and good, since I'll have to buy a new DVD player to play any of them, but which format is most widely accepted? Even if I get a drive that will record in any format what do most DVD players accept? Sure I can make sure that my DVD player will play whatever format I produce but what about my parents and friends?"
All the answers to your questions have already been given on http://www.dvdrhelp.com. Not only do they detail which DVD players accept which formats, but tell you were to get the best deals on media, which formats work the best, and what dvd-r/w+r/w drives work the best.
I don't want to troll, but a simple google search would have easily answered all of your questions.
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
DVD-R has something like 89% compatability - meaning 89% of the DVD players out there will play DVD-R. Almost ALL DVD players made after 1999 will do DVD-R. DVD+R is next with 85% compatability. Note that DVD+R offers a couple more features, but you trade off just a notch of compatability. The +/-RW formats are less compatible... modern DVD players should be able to do it. My friend bought a new DVD player which said in the instructions that it couldn't play DVD+RW, but I burned one anyway and his player was able to play it just fine.
DVD-R is the only format that has been approved by the DVD Forum. It has the most hardware available for recording, and it is supported in more DVD drives and DVD players than DVD+R. DVD+R will soon fade from existance. If you want to be safe in the future and you want people to be able to read your DVDs, go with DVD-R.
we have a sony dru-500ax here that burns either format (dvd+ and dvd-). it is our experience that the "dvd-r/rw" works much better than the dvd+ in off-the-shelf dvd players. i have an apex 1100 at home and it will not play the dvd+ discs (verbatim brand 2.4 speed) that i have burnt with this unit, while the dvd- (also verbatim brand 2.4 speed) discs play just fine. we also have another brand of dvd player in our break room (dont remember the brand) and it wont play them either, and its fairly new. we've also had trouble getting the dvd+ data discs to read in some of the computers we have on campus (brand new dell optiplex) while the dvd- work. maybe its just the brand of discs that we are using. hope this helps....YMMV
DVD-R seem to be the most widely playable...and Apple's DVD-R media seems to be the most reliable (and very reasonably priced) from my extensive testing at work. We ended up purchasing the Sony DVD-R/RW+R/RW drive to ensure maximum compatiblity.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
(I ended up replacing the loader in my Apex AD-600A because it wouldn't handle any burned DVDs. $35 and an RPC-1 firmware download took care of that. I use a Pioneer DVR-105 in a FireWire case; it gets shared between two computers at home and one at work.)
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
I own that drive and it died in less than a month the first time, now it won't read the +R media IT WRITES. The +R will read in any other drive that I have, just not the drive that wrote it.
The biggest problem I had was with Sony Tech Support. It took me 4 hours to get an RMA to return the drive. They refused to help me at first because the drive wasn't hooked up as the master on the SECOND IDE controller. It was hooked up as the master on the first IDE controler (My MOBO has 2 IDE, plus a RAID controller which the HD's run off of).
Trying to explain to them that it didn't make a damn bit of difference which controller it was on made ZERO difference to them.
I also spent half that time on hold waiting to talk to someone.
If I had to do it over, I would go with probably the Pioneer drive.
I also prefer the -R media because it's cheaper and my Home DVD player can read them.
Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
Ummmm.. VBR encoding has nothing to do with the media. VBR has to do with the software that encoded the video.
VBR encoded DVD compliant MPEG2 streams burn just fine DVD-R/W drives. (like a Superdrive)
i have a sony dru-500A, a pioneer A04, and the ever so worthless hp dvd +r drive.
here is the basic line if you want compatability there is no choice but a -r -rw drive. i recently took a pair of home video disc i had burnt and a *cough* full *cough* copy of the dvd disc hackers. at 2 electronics stores i tested the disc's out in over 80 different dvd players. computer, home, integrated, car....
the +r disc worked in 6 drives and they were the brand new sonys that listed +r compatability. the -rw disc worked oddly in every single cheap player and the more expensive sony's. the -R disc worked in every single player.
curently from a number of internet sites dvd -r blanks can be found for ~80 cents (usd), i still havent found a single source of +r blanks for less than ~4.00 each.
curently tiger direct and a number of other sites are selling dvd-r, -rw drives that also act as cd burners for less than $160. including software and a 1 year warenty. (panasonic)
i very much think the +r standard is dying
as for drives the pioneer A05 is nice but the sony DRU-500A is a superior drive and well worth the $300 it costs. i think at last count i'm up to ~900 burnt dvd-r's and no coasters.
...which is the entity that defines the DVD Format specifications, publishes reference materials, creates DVD Format books, administers the DVD Verification Laboratories, and licenses the familiar DVD logo:
"Please note that the "+RW" format, also known as DVD+RW was neither developed nor approved by the DVD Forum. The approved recordable formats are DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM."
Technically, DVD+RW aren't even DVDs, since, in order to be a DVD, it must be approved by the DVD Forum. The +RW alliance, will have you believe otherwise; that they don't have to follow any standards and that the DVD Forum means nothing.
DVD+RW's biggest "benefit" over -RW is that it allows for packet writing - therefore allowing it to be treated like a normal writable volume, having files added to or deleted from it at will, and doesn't require closing the disc. The drawback is that a bunch of companies went out and did this on their own, and DVD+RW is the least compatible format with consumer DVD players. Of course, manufacturers - particularly those a part of this "alliance" - have buckled to provide support for it. A somewhat backwards approach, if you as me. In any case, in the days of cheap 200GB+ drives, I'm not sure why you'd want to use a really slow recordable optical format that holds a comparatively scant amount of data as a writeable volume...after all, DVD-R/RW can hold data as well, just not via packet writing methods.
Many manufacturers are providing DVD-R/RW/+RW drives now, so I imagine this point will be moot.
I have a pioneer A05 at work and the Sony DRU 500 at home.... and I can tell you that the Pioneer is not worth the money when you can buy Sony for a bit more and have it do both standards.
Go for a dual format drive... The DRU-500AX or DW-U10A (OEM version of the 500) will do DVD+/-R/RWs. I've got a Ikebana dual format dvd burner, which is the DW-U10A rebaged. I flashed it with a modified firmware and now it's just like the DW-U10a, and I can even use the same firmware. This is a drive to look out for... (I got it for 220 after $50 MIR, you can find the DW-U10A for a little under 300 shipped)
DVD-R/RW is backed by the DVD Forum, as well as a long list of hardware manufacturers. A few months ago, this would have given this format the edge. Microsoft, however, has recently thrown its weight into the +R/RW camp along with the many hardware manufacturers which were already supporting it. This sort of evens things out.
I assume the reason MS decided to back +R/RW is because of its ability to provide lossless linking in the recording mode that is the most compatable with video DVD players. This feature allows realtime streaming of low bitrate MPEG directly to video-compatable DVD which is something MS probably figures many consumers will want to do.
The fact that both formats have strong backing probably means that we will have to live with both formats for longer than we previously thought unless one camp or the other suddenly backs down, which is unlikely.
As for me, I have a +R/RW, and am so far very happy with it. It is well supported in Linux through the growisofs utility, and I haven't had any problem with compatability of the +R media in video DVD players.
The growisofs webpage mentioned above has a good technical discussion of the lossless linking issue and why this is supposedly an advantage for +R/RW (look near the bottom of the page), although I personally don't do realtime MPEG streaming to DVD.
I was a very early adopter of CD-R with sony's first CD-R drive at 2K$us back then when the CDs were over 20$ a pop.... I was always satisfied with the writer and never in my mind the doubt of "losing data" before 10 years really triggered....
;)
With the pioneer, I went along the logic that they were the first to introduce a "end user" DVD-R unit (at 10K$ back then) so I thought that at the A04 revision it would be a winner... God I was wrogn, that unit pissed me off so much, first, the firmware issues, passing from 1.20 to upwards; you couldn't revert back to older firmware because pioneer locked the firmware with a key, you couldn't put cheap disks into it anymore, and the worst was the princo RW would never record correctly or freeze the drive off and I had to do some weird "leave the cd in while resetting the unit, boot windows, use dvddecrypt in debug and reinit + full erase RW" to recuperate the disk. Anyways, of course if you would use 5x more expensive medias you'd have less problems, but at that price point it was defeating the reason why I bought a DVD-R in the first place ($/megs/reliability). Nightmare aside, what pissed me off the most is when I started seeing reports of DVD failing after a short amount of time, even commercial grade one. Dunno if other people here will post more specifically about that subject but it got me worried to a point where I use cheap medias, and only use my drive as "second layer backup" for the time being and when I have something critical to put on disk I go out and shell more for a brand-name disc, which I find is way overpriced. Of course if you burn 2x on a 1x media with an hacked firmware, you're asking for trouble, but this isn't my case, I always burn at 1X to put every chances on my side.
Drives are comming down in price, which is a good thing, newer models have both +R and -R support so that stupid (very stupid) compatibility thing shouldn't be a problem anymore unless you run into firmware issues like I did. Even if you buy something cheap, READ the forums, read the firmware discussion groups, and like when buying a motherboard to build a server for example, ALWAYS read the tech support forums of the company or "unofficial supports" sites before making a decision if you are planning on using your device for stuff you'd want to keep for a while. This is where I failed, I took the pioneer brand for granted... I can tell you there are a buttload of unhappy customers with the A04 model, A05 came out shortly after with 4x support which was even more upsetting because it wasn't announced a decent time before the release (I would have waited). Now the A06 has dual support (+/- R/RW) But I'd go Sony or even LG before going back to pioneer, the tech support was lame and that firmware issue had ABSOLUTELY no justification, locking a firmware to not be downgradable and introducing support only for your DVD-Rs (1.20->1.31) as a feature is simply disgusting.
As for a standard... it's hard to tell, since all drives manufacturers seems to go for Dual-mode drives, the fight will probably stay there until the next leap happen (like those 20+GB dvds with backward compatibility, maybe they will limit it to 1 standard). The reason I chose -R over +R is because they were 2-3 years LATE into delivering the product from the "supposed launch date", I was planning on working with that about a year after the supposed launch date, 2 years after I was still waiting and I was really upset so I went the other way, and still got screwed a bit
Oh and a good source for firmware discussion/problems for most drives Firmware Page
They were really helpful into hacking that damn device and firmware so that I could downgrade it.
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Just a small note, if anyone cares - Only the the recent model PS2's will play DVD+R. Go with DVD-R's if this is an issue.
I believe this is appropriate.
In the unlikely event that your ISP block access to all sites except Slashdot (which would explain why you decided to come here instead of to a DVD- or video-oriented site), here's the deal:
DVD-R has the best compatibility, closely followed by DVD+R. The RW formats are far less compatible. Media quality and authoring software also have an influence on compatibility. Best results are achieved with DVDs authored in professional or semi-professional software (ex., DVD Maestro, Reel DVD, DVD Studio Pro, etc.), recorded on brand-name DVD-R media (Maxell is pretty good) at the lowest speed. Also, always create a disc image, or burn with a program that is capable of correctly structuring the title set folders (ex., PrimoDVD). Data burning programs (ex., Nero) will sometimes create discs that do not play on set-top players.
Under these conditions you can expect the disc to play on about 80% of current models (some models dont play recordable discs at all). DVD+R will play on about 75% of players, and the RW formats will play in around 20% of players. For data, DVD+RW is the most versatile format.
RMN
~~~
Sounds like yet another reason to buy a DVD burner (that goes in your computer) instead of a DVD recorder (that plugs into your A/V stack). I'm fairly sure the topic at hand is DVD burners, though. (Just as I used a CD burner mainly to make SVCDs, the output from my DVD burner is more DVD-Video than DVD-ROM...source material for both is mostly ripped from my TiVo and reencoded to work with the destination format.)
It's also helpful that DVD burners only run $200-$300, while DVD recorders still run 2-3x that (or more).
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Regards,
proclus
http://www.gnu-darwin.org/
Here has been my experince with DVD+Rs. I bought my first DVD+R about a year ago because it was $250. That was anywhere from 50 to a 100 bucks cheaper than anything else out there. When it got fried, along with the rest of the computer, I started looking for a replacement. The one thing that I started noticing was that all the major players where fielding DVD+Rs now. TDK, Plextor and a few others where making DVD+R and nobody seemed to be shipping DVD-R with thier shit.
Now I will admit that my research may have been bias because I had about 100 blank DVD+R laying around. Another thing that I noticed was that they local BestBuy and Compusa seem to be stocking more DVD+R than DVD-R. This was both writers and media. This as lead me to think that DVD+R is what people are buying. I think that DVD+R has won whatever DVD battle there is.
On compatablity issues there is only one DVD player that I've noticed can't play DVD+R and that was in a Compqa laptop. This Sony Vaio doesn't have any problems and neather does my PS2 nor any DVD player I've tried.
Oh and if your going to pirate movies Pinnacle has this great software called Instant Copy that will make great copies of DVD movies. It does everything but rip and burn for you. Will automaticlly re-encode a DVD-9 to DVD-5 with better quality than a (S)VCD. Not that I would encourage you to pirate movies that is.
Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification
All sorts of hacks, manufacturer links, FAQs, etc.
I think you got robbed. ;-)
Seriously, -R is the most compatible for current DVD players and +RW is the least (excepting, of course, DVD-RAM). But your best bet is to visit vcdhelp and see what your DVD player (and those of your family and friends) supports.
That web site also has a ton of tutorials on the authoring and burning process.
Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
Nothing to do with "Selling out", difference between + and - formats is where the data is stored.
For - discs, the data is stored in the valleys, and for + discs, its stored on the hilltops.
From memory, I think also the -RAM discs store data on both available portions, but since we dont hear anything about them, i think they have been dropped by the roadside.
liqbase
If your priority is for Video that you can share with friends and family, my experience is that DVD-R is the more compatible format. That doesn't mean it's without flaws, though. At least in this part of the world (Australia), both formats seem to be equally available, but a lot of the -R media is still 1x speed. At least with +R you'll get a minimum of 2.4x write times.
The advantage of the +R format is allegedly better support in future versions of Windows, and packet writing ability for the +RW formats.
Given that there are quite a few drives that can write both media, I'd say get one of those. Also, if you havea DVD-ROM drive in your computer, it's worth checking the compatibility of that as well.
To change the Region and Macrovision settings
of the Apex AD-3201, do the following:
1. Eject the disc tray
2. Push 8 4 2 1 on the remote.
3. This reveals the Region and Macrovision setup screen.
4. Push "ENTER" on the remote to select the Region.
Select '9' for Region Bypass.
5. To save the settings, close the disc tray.
and I can tell you that the Pioneer is not worth the money when you can buy Sony for a bit more and have it do both standards.
Well, that's not the whole picture. The people that I've talked to say that Pioneer DVD writing drives make more compatible discs than Sony drives, on the same media. One guy does a lot of burns for set-top drives and he says he consistently gets better player compatibility results with the Pioneer.
Plus, if you look online, you can get the Pioneer A05 for a lot cheaper than the Sony, often over $100 less. It's hard to find the Sony for much less than $350 anywhere.
Try the KISS DP 450 or DP 500 DVD Players... http://www.kiss-technology.com/projects/dvd_450.as p?id=109
They also claim Divx playback as a first...
http://www.kiss-technology.com/news/content.asp?id =52
I've said this on every DVD-related topic that I've replied to, but I'll say it again: The quality of the media that you get is the most important factor. Particularly for DVDs, it seems that some of the new exotic high-speed media has to have a firmware revision that includes specific media manufacturer support (e.g. Verbatim 4x DVD+RW). The brands that I recommend to my clients for all writable media, CD and DVD, are Verbatim, TDK, and Mitsui (and their badge-engineered equivalents), in no particular order. The Mitsui Gold Archive standard are rated at something ridiculous like 200 years useful life. Everything else is of questionable quality and compatibility. Now, while you may not get or need that much mileage until the next greatest thing, some of the cheaper media (e.g. Ritek) can go on you like crazy, sometimes in under a year. To me, if I'm going to go through the trouble of "backing up" my DVDs, storing my Ogg/MP3 files, or archiving source material for video editing, I'm going to use something that does the job right the first time, not something that I have to worry about dying on me in 2-3 years time. The advantage in cost over a spindle is miniscule compared to potential complete data loss. And I have blanks (Kao CD-Rs come to mind) that have totally died on me that have never even been opened. If I get at least 20-30 years with average abuse, I'll do it. Or I can put my most prized data, movies and music onto DVDs and store them in a safe deposit box at the bank where they likely will last much longer. I know that there are folks who like DVD+R, but DVD-R is the standard. Just because more DVD+R drives have appeared right now means nothing. Just because Microsoft supports DVD+ standards means nothing. What counts is maximum compatibility, and DVD-R is that beast. It's not the most modern or sexy, but if you have a corporate training video or are duplicating your wedding video for friends, DVD-R is the choice you should make.
>DVD+R/+RW is better technically, and doesn't require different discs for different purposes.
Sure DVD+R/+RW doesn't require different discs for different purposes... so long as you stick with DVD+R or DVD+RW. If that was your point, you had no point.
DVD-R/-RW doesn't require "different discs for different purposes" EITHER.
Or were you referring to the niche "DVD Authoring" format? This is irrelivent/FUD for 99.9999999% of DVD recorder owners, since DVD Authoring is a special authoring format not supported outside its small, vertical market.
I suppose in one sense tho that makes DVD-R/-RW "more complicated" than DVD+R/+RW... because there is *no* authoring format for the "+" writers. Sure, you can save some encoded files to DVD+RW... (and probably not proof it in your DVD player unless you just got a DVD player this year... then MAYBE). What your service provider will do is copy your DVD+RW onto a DVD-R Authoring disc because that is the master.
Personally, most people won't consider the advantage of being able to master on DVD-R(A) a negative... most people won't care actually. They just want their movies to work on Uncle Bob's DVD player, puchased 3 years ago... it ain't gonna work with DVD+RW.
The new 4th generation DVD-RAM drives can do:
- DVD-RAM
- DVD-R(G)
- DVD-R/W
Remember that DVD-RAM is the only standard that is reliable for backups, the only one with (optional) data verification, the only one with long life cycles for constant use (100,000 records vs 100-1000 for DVD-/+R/W).
"DVD-RAM" is an early format that uses a phase-change medium. Apart from the fraudulent name, it's not at all related to DVD-RW or DVD+RW (and thoroughly incompatible with both).
DVD+R/W has some big supporters behind it, although the discs are about twice the costs of -R/W discs. If you're curious if it will work in your player, you might check out the Compatibility List at dvdrhelp.com. It's also a good place to find out which player to buy.
My votes go to the Koss KD305 available for $49.99 at Sears (plus option $7 service plan, unlike $30 at Best Buy) or the Norcent DP300 which is $39.99 at Amazon ($49.99 at Walmart). Both play darn near anything you can throw at them, and they're CHEAP!
I own the Koss 305 and simply love it.
Yes I have used Windows - and Windows is better! Better performance, better compatibility, better drivers, better everything.
Free alternatives are popular because either:
1) You get them for free and aren't willing or able to pay for something as important as an OS for your own computer.
2) You have jumped on the IBM/Sun/Oracle led, "Microsoft is bad" bandwagon with the other hippies. Funny how it's Microsoft's competitors leading the way. You sheep.
3) All of the above.
So there.
No it's not a troll, it's how I really feel.
I'm a video editor and if you think consumer format wars are a pain, take a look at all the TV stations across the country so unsure of what the next "standard" will be that they aren't switching to anything.
To answer your question 99% of TV stations use BetaSP for recording and editing. I was rather young when the Betamax/VHS wars were going on, but I don't think professional Beta decks were ever the same as consumer Betamax. The pros picked Beta because it was better, period. Watching a BetaSP tape is just about as good as a DVD on a standard TV.
The coming formats will prolly be either DigiBeta or DVCAM, but there's still a couple of flavors of MiniDV and ProHi8. And that doesn't even get into HD recording which is still up in the air. We don't do any HD work, but the only formats I know of for it are D-VHS and HDCAM.
Some stations actually tried to switch to S-VHS a while ago and got burned because of it's nasty generation loss when editing.
But as far as BetaSP goes, I'm 90% sure Sony is still making the decks. We bought ours about a year ago brand new. I've never even seen a Betamax tape so I don't know if it's compatible with BetaSP, but every TV station in the country would be in serious trouble if Sony stopped making BetaSP decks.
Just to stay on topic a bit here, we're a small shop and we burn all of our archives to DVD-R Data (we edit in Final Cut Pro on a Mac). We picked that standard cause it came with the Mac, basically. But I've been happy with it. If a clients wants a DVD video of a project we just burn it in iDVD and we haven't had any problems (except the guy who wanted to play it in his old PC).
Frankly I would like to see some kind of optical media take over, but that's just cause I always feel like I'm back in the stone age at the end of a project. Dump the tape to the computer, do all your non-linear editing, tweak graphics, re-edit parts with NO generation loss, then go back to the 20th century and record it real-time to a strip of magnetic tape. Ideally I could just FTP the finished file to the TV station, but at the rate they're adopting new technology it'll be a while.
Jeez, how did that crap get moderated to +5 points?
DVD-RAM 2.6GB can be removed from the cartridge and read in regular DVD-ROM drives.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak