Slashdot Mirror


AOL Pulls Nullsoft's WASTE

dmehus writes "America Online, parent company of Nullsoft, has pulled what it views as a controversial project called WASTE from Nullsoft's servers. This is not the only time it has stepped in to Nullsoft's doings. It had quickly taken down Gnutella, developed by Nullsoft co-founder Justin Frankel, and shut down an MP3 search engine. CNET's News.com has more details." For those not keeping track, WASTE was only recently released.

68 of 637 comments (clear)

  1. GPL by Molt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hold on, Waste was released under the GPL.. exactly how can AOL plan to pull that?

    --
    404 Not Found: No such file or resource as '.sig'
    1. Re:GPL by lpontiac · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Can't speak for elsewhere, but it turns out under Australian law that even if I release something under the GPL, I might be able to "take it back." It has something to do with the fact that the law makes it extremely difficult to give something away - that's the reason that if, for instance, I want to give someone a house, I can't "give" it to them, I have to "sell" it to them for $1.

      A lawyer called Jeremy Malcolm gave a rather good talk on this at Linux.conf.au 2003 (there should be links to his slides and audio of the talk itself on the site, if anyone's interested).

    2. Re:GPL by blixel · · Score: 4, Informative

      I have source code available on this web site.

      Scratch that. I now have a mirror of the site.

  2. Don't worry, you can still get a copy of it by fredrikj · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just download it over WASTE.

  3. Re:GPL - Source Posted by sgarrity · · Score: 5, Informative

    "exactly how can AOL plan to pull that?"

    They can't. Dave Winer has posted the source.

    I've got a copy of the install if someone wants to host it.

  4. WASTE by I(rispee_I(reme · · Score: 5, Informative

    WASTE is an encrypted filesharing network, since the article did not make it clear. It is also, in the same vein as gnutella, an open protocol.

  5. Re:waste copy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sure, it was initially released under the GPL, so there are already mirrors out there that keep WASTE alive... One example: http://www.dhorrocks2003.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

  6. Duh. by afidel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Who didn't see this coming. Justin comes up with cool tech because he can't be touched by AOL and even if they fired him he's stinking rich from the takeover so he doesn't have to work for anyone. AOL still owns the servers and can dictate what gets released by one of their holding but once the code is out there it's there for good (assuming Justin didn't violate any sections of the GPL, specifically re patents).

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    1. Re:Duh. by afidel · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ownership of the equipment doesn't give them ownership to the IP. They would have to have a contract with Justin that says all thoughts are AOL's regardless of whether he does them for work or not. That is a possibility, but with Justin's rebellious streak I doubt it.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  7. Mirrored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    As linked from heise.de, the release is mirrored on the web.

    The whole "unauthorized" release thing is interesting, though. I'd say that they have to prove that it wasn't an official release as it certainly looked like one. But what if somebody infiltrates Microsoft and puts sections of the Windows source on the web site under the GPL?

    1. Re:Mirrored by moonbender · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd think the situation you describe is pretty straightforward (IANAL though). The person who hacked MS never owned the copyright to any of Microsofts software, and thus does not have the right to release the source code under any license. Any licenses he gave would be null and void.
      If someone would actually download the sources and take the license seriously, he'd definitely have to stop working with them as soon as he is told.I'm not sure whether there would be any further ramifications - I'd assume no, at least not as long as the person who downloads the source is doing so in good faith, that is he really is dumb enough to believe Microsoft released the Windows source under the terms of the GPL.

      As for this situation, it's similar, but not the same: AOL, and not Nullsoft, probably owns the rights to WASTE, and so only AOL can release the software under the GPL. However, as a part of AOL, maybe Nullsoft also has the privilege to do so, especially in this case of software they programmed themselves. That'd mean they abused that privilege, and might lead to some kind of trouble for Nullsoft, but in that case the GPL would still hold. On the other hand, maybe the situation is effectively the same as the one with MS, described above, which would mean that Nullsoft had no right to grant any licenses, and as such whoever downloaded WASTE would in fact be required to delete the software.

      --
      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    2. Re:Mirrored by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If parent AOL says they had approval authority over Nullsoft's releases, then that approval or disappoval should have happened before the release hit the www.nullsoft.com servers.

      If AOL was really scared of Nullsoft making unauthorized releases, they could have required that Nullsoft not have a website under their direct control, and that they'd have to send all web content to the people who run www.aol.com who would of course send the content to headquarters for approval before putting it up. The fact that such a process doesn't exist tends to indicate that somebody at Nullsoft has the authority to post software.

  8. Wait a minute...they can't do that! by ScottGant · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "If you downloaded or otherwise obtained a copy of the Software, you acquired no lawful rights to the Software and must destroy any and all copies of the Software, including by deleting it from your computer. Any license that you may believe you acquired with the Software is void, revoked and terminated."

    It was released under the GPL, it's out there...the GPL is out there...they can't all of a sudden say "Sorry, we changed our minds".

    Will this be a landmark case that tests the GPL now? I wonder...

    --

    "Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
    1. Re:Wait a minute...they can't do that! by JoeCotellese · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It seems to be that as in the case of Gnutella, they had to know that their parent company wouldn't like this very much.

      I don't think the provisions of the GPL say that you have to continue distributing the code, only that the code once freed remains free. There are already other WASTE mirrors so I think they achieved their objective.

      You would think the NULLSoft crew would just leave AOL. I imagine that they are sticking around because of retainer contracts tied to $$ and when the time comes they all jump ship en masse.

    2. Re:Wait a minute...they can't do that! by ssimpson · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Erm, the link provided in the story e.g. here

      --
      "Mary had a crypto key, she kept it in escrow, and everything that Mary said, the Feds were sure to know."
    3. Re:Wait a minute...they can't do that! by ssimpson · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yep, certainly was. I guess the AOL lawyers have finally found a strategy to try and put the genie back in the bottle.

      Of course, the following disagree ;)


      http://www.sifnt.net/waste.zip
      http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?threadid =1 37077
      http://www.dhorrocks2003.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/wa st e-setup.exe
      http://slackerbitch.free.fr/waste/waste-source.t ar .gz
      http://edwards.servehttp.com:969/waste/
      http://scriptingnews.userland.com/2003/05/30#Whe n:2:48:46PM
      http://www.dhorrocks2003.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
      http://www.virtuelvis.com/temp/waste-source.tar. gz
      http://www.blibbleblobble.co.uk/
      http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/blogs/gems/home/was te.zip
      http://www.cleanstick.org/jon/junk/waste-source. tar.gz

      And add to that my mirror http://www.samsimpson.com/waste-source.tar.gz

      --
      "Mary had a crypto key, she kept it in escrow, and everything that Mary said, the Feds were sure to know."
    4. Re:Wait a minute...they can't do that! by Alsee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you downloaded or otherwise obtained a copy of the Software, you acquired no lawful rights to the Software and must destroy any and all copies of the Software, including by deleting it from your computer

      Even if the code was posted without permission, that statement by Nullsoft is not valid.

      The internet is a global medium. Anyone who downloaded the code is subject to their local laws. There are quite a few countries where the people who downloaded the code are completely free to keep, use, and distribute that code in any way they see fit - no matter what the circumstances.

      Making legal threats telling people what they "must" do to a global audience is just stupid.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  9. This was only to be expected by zxSpectrum · · Score: 5, Informative

    But, seeing as it's GPLed:

    Waste-source

    Please, mirror the file instead of using this as sole source. I have no opportunity to set up BitTorrent here, and I have maximum transfer per month constraints. I will pull the file after 1GB is transfered.

    1. Re:This was only to be expected by blibbleblobble · · Score: 4, Informative

      Please, mirror the file instead of using this as sole source.

      Okay

      Do we have agreement on what the MD5 should look like for these files, before everyone starts hosting any file they find with a "waste.zip" filename?

  10. Does GPL apply? by Skynet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The code was written in house, and thus was the copyrighted property of AOL Time Warner. It was released without the consent of the company by some developers at Nullsoft. If that is true, isn't it still the property of AOLTW?

    Are there any precedents for this type of thing?

    --
    Execute? [Y/N] _
    1. Re:Does GPL apply? by Albanach · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It was released by nullsoft under the GPL - the subsidiary had a choice over the licensing conditions the wanted to use and settled upon the GPL.

      Just because their parent company doesn't like that choice, it can't be undone. If AOL have a problem with nullsoft's choice of license, that's an internal matter for the two compaines to resolve.

      The only way I can see things being different would be if under contract terms between the two companies AOL had to aprove each piece of software produced by their subsidiary. Then they might argue that the code wasn't nullsoft's to release or give any license to. In much the same way as if someone here found the code to Microsoft Office, they can't just slap the GPL at the top and release it to the world.

  11. Where's the money? by bigman2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    AOL sees WASTE (and a few other Nullsoft products) as something that:

    A- Doesn't provide them with a revenue stream.

    B- Could bring on lawsuits

    C- Competes with their other products.

    AOL is a huge company, with lots of money. They could get sued for *real* money, not just Napster money. Also, the fact that they own a lot of media might cause them problems.

    We are on the cusp of a new era of 'authorized' file downloads (iTunes). Finally big business is learning how to make money from music on the web, and letting another free service rear it's free little head isn't part of their plans.

    It seems like Nullsoft is forgetting who butters its bread.

    --
    No reason to lie.
  12. Mirrors! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.sifnt.net/waste.zip
    http://forums.wina mp.com/showthread.php?threadid=1 37077
    http://www.dhorrocks2003.pwp.blueyonder.co. uk/wast e-setup.exe
    http://slackerbitch.free.fr/waste/was te-source.tar .gz

  13. What a Waste.... by moehoward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But not surprising. I just don't get what these developers are thinking. Something like, "Yes sir! May I have another?!?!?!"

    This is not the type of fight you can win from within. It's long past time that they free themselves from AOL.

    Step 1: Write great software
    Step 2: Make sure the IP for that software belongs to a meglomaniacal corporate structure
    Step 3: Disappointment, Rinse, Repeat

    --
    "If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
  14. To everyone posting the source code by joshki · · Score: 5, Interesting
    You may not be on solid legal ground here. I didn't see the original release, but the page they have up now says:
    An unauthorized copy of Nullsoft's copyrighted software was briefly posted on this website on or about Wednesday May 28, 2003. The software was identified as "WASTE" (the "Software") and includes the files "waste-setup.exe", "waste-source.zip", "waste-source.tar.gz" and any additional files contained in these files.

    (emphasis mine)

    If the files were posted by someone who did not have the authorization to post them, then you have no legal right to distribute them, because that person had no right to place the files under the GPL. Of course, we have no way of knowing if that's what really happened, but I'd still be very hesitant to publish the files until someone with the standing to do so weighs in on the issue (Any FSF lawyers reading this?).
    --
    I do not read or respond to AC's. If you want a discussion, log in. Otherwise, don't waste your time.
    1. Re:To everyone posting the source code by mako · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Interesting. What would happen if say a car salesmen sold a customer a car for 1/2 price while the office manager is on vacation. The customer assumes the sale is legitimate, the sale is finalized and the customer drives home. When the office manager returns would he have recourse against the customer, as well as, the employee?

      Or to use your example if the thief exchanges the stolen money for goods and services must the second innocent party incur the damages and repay the original injured party? Or is the thief solely responsible for remuneration?

    2. Re:To everyone posting the source code by Chilles · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And to further stretch the analogy (thought experiment time)

      Suppose the car was probably bought under certain terms, maybe a free service checkup every 3 months. Would the customer still have the right to the full terms of the contract he signed with the garage? I'm inclined to think so...
      But if that is the case than people that downloaded waste from the original Nullsoft website still have the right to the contract they "signed" (i.e. they read and undertood the accompanying licence). So those people have certain rights with respect to the waste source code they downloaded. More specifically, they downloaded it under the GPL. So those people still have both the rights and duties that come with the GPL with respect to waste.

      No one knew or had any reason to suspect that the person distributing waste was not authorized to do so. So everybody that downloaded waste from the nullsoft website has legally obtained Waste under the GPL. And may legally redistribute the waste program or any derived works as long as they include the source code in their distribution.

      This is just a thought experiment though, I have no idea how this works in real life. I know I just thought that giving us Waste was a cool action by Nullsoft and I never suspected otherwise. (this was released the same day RTCW Enemy Territory was given away for free so perhaps I wasjust getting used to companies giving cool stuff away for free)

  15. Mirrors of source and binaries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
  16. Re:haaaaaa told you SO !! by moonbender · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ehm, no. Eminence said: "It's already irrelevant whether AOL would pull the plug on them. The source is out. GPL-ed."

    And that remains absolutely correct. Of course AOL can pull the plug, but the damage has been done, in a manner of speaking. That said, AOL pulling the plug might mean there is no or hardly any support (user or developer) for WASTE now, so people will have to figure it out themselves. That might hinder the development a bit. Still, if there is demand for an app like WASTE - and I'm not sure there is - people will figure out just fine.

    --
    Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
  17. isn't life funny? by smd4985 · · Score: 4, Funny

    i downloaded waste off gnutella :) .

    --
    smd4985
  18. mirror of the source by mog · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here is a mirror of this fully legal, GPL software. Do with it as you will.

  19. My mirror by jonathan_atkinson · · Score: 4, Informative

    Get the source here.

    --Jon

    --
    Cleanstick.org: Dumb weblog about nothing
  20. only 2 possibilities by DrSkwid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. AOL are the copyright holders and as such the code was never released by them under the GPL so it's not under the GPL now and never has been.

    2. AOL don't own the copyright and as such the code is, and always will be , subject to the GPL.

    --
    There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    1. Re:only 2 possibilities by Daniel+Phillips · · Score: 4, Informative

      1. AOL are the copyright holders...

      You're wrong, Nullsoft are the copyright holders, or were at the time of the release. Nullsoft is owned by AOL, but is nonetheless a separate legal entity.

      It all comes down to whether Justin had the right to release the code under the GPL, and from the sounds of things, he does. We shall see.

      /*
      WASTE - main.cpp (Windows main entry point and a lot of code :)
      Copyright (C) 2003 Nullsoft, Inc.

      WASTE is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
      it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
      the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
      (at your option) any later version.

      WASTE is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
      but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
      MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
      GNU General Public License for more details.

      You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
      along with WASTE; if not, write to the Free Software
      Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA
      */

      --
      Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
    2. Re:only 2 possibilities by Fnkmaster · · Score: 4, Interesting
      This post shouldn't be modded offtopic. Legally, I believe it's a key issue (of course, this is just my opinion and IANAL). Ownership of the copyright of this code is a complex issue, undoubtedly, determined by a series of contracts between employees and their employers, and the companies involved. Just because we might say in the common parlance that "AOL owns Nullsoft" doesn't necessarily mean much. AOL might own every share of Nullsoft stock, but if they delegate management of Nullsoft to Nullsoft executives, those managers have the right and obligation to manage the company as they see fit (within the bounds of standard fiduciary obligations - which are complex). The managers do have the obligation to represent shareholder interests with respect to company assets - but that is a contractual and fiduciary responsibility issue, and does not retroactively impact who had the right to license that code.


      As far as I know, in the absence of overriding contracts regarding copyright holdings of Nullsoft, Inc. that automatically assign such copyrights to AOLTW and prohibit sale or trade of rights in those copyrighted materials without explicit authorization of AOLTW, I believe Nullsoft management would have acted as legal agents of Nullsoft Inc. with respect to copyrighted materials when they posted them on the Nullsoft web site with license and copyright notices attached. If AOL failed to put greater contractual and procedural controls in place, that's their problem, and they could take it up in court with the individual managers or corporate personage of Nullsoft, Inc.


      Then again, after the Gnutella fiasco, if AOLTW _didn't_ have explicit contracts in place giving them assignment and control of all copyrighted Nullsoft works, they are idiots.

  21. AOL may very well pull the source.. by GauteL · · Score: 5, Interesting

    .. and Waste may very well be illegal, no matter if it was released under the GPL.

    What matters is WHO released it under the GPL. If the ones that released it had no legal rights to do what they did, then Waste is illegal, and redistributing it is illegal.

    Why? Because only the copyright holder can release software like this. Otherwise the license is void, and you are all doing something illegal by distributing the source.

    The above is pretty much clear, but lawyers might want to answer the question of wether the people that released the software did in fact have the rights to do something like this. If a lowly employee releases software, my guess is that he does not have the rights to do so. Otherwise any employee of Microsoft would have the right to release Windows under the GPL..

    Before distributing Waste, you should be pretty sure that it was in fact a release warranted by Nullsoft executives, otherwise it may be illegal.

    It may be that the release was warranted by someone with the proper authority, but if AOL/Nullsoft states otherwise, this might be decided by trial.

    1. Re:AOL may very well pull the source.. by randombit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why? Because only the copyright holder can release software like this. Otherwise the license is void, and you are all doing something illegal by distributing the source.

      Absolutely true. But, from my brief glance at the source, it looks like all of the files have GPL notices at the top. Either the unauthorized person was very thorough, or this really was supposed to be GPLed - maybe not released right now, but at some point. But that is hardly proof, and while they cannot revoke the GPL, it's hard to prove either way, unless they name the person who supposedly uploaded it without authorization, and file a $$$ lawsuit against him for IP loss.

      Either way, WASTE is at this point not really safe for use. For examples, it uses PCBC encryption (broken), MD5 for authentication (!!!), RSAref (slow + unmaintained + bad RNG), and on Windows it doesn't seem to be seeding the RNG with much of anything (on Unix it reads /dev/urandom, which is fine). The NullSoft guys may have interesting ideas, but it seems like they probably should have asked somebody before implementing the crypto in WASTE.

  22. Already on sourceforge. by jonathan_atkinson · · Score: 4, Informative

    I noticed someone has already set up a SourceForge project for WASTE.

    http://sourceforge.net/projects/waste/

    Now go and help out! I want a cleanly building Linux port.

    --Jon

    --
    Cleanstick.org: Dumb weblog about nothing
  23. PULLED by zxSpectrum · · Score: 5, Informative

    The file is now gone. Please mod this up so my server survives.



    Use Dave Winers offer to download instead, or one of the other sources: waste.zip

    1. Re:PULLED by Dan-DAFC · · Score: 5, Funny

      Please mod this up so my server survives.

      Yeah, and you'd better mod this post up as well or I'll...er...kill a kitten.

      --
      Suck figs.
  24. Difficult Question by 0x0d0a · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well...that's a difficult question. First, Justin may have the ability to make official Nullsoft releases, unless AOL specifically forbid this when they purchased Nullsoft. If he's authorized to act as an agent of the company...then the company did the release. Second of all, while it's conventional for software developers to sign with a company saying that (at least) stuff written on company time is owned by the *company*, IIRC Justin was a founding member of Nullsoft. There may not have been any such contract when he joined up. Third, while he definitely *used* it on company time, nobody has made any statement to the effect that he *wrote* it on company time. If he did this at home, it may mean that he owns the code.

  25. Eric Rudolph sez by Saint+Stephen · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's all a big conspiracy by AOL and Microsoft to WASTE the GPL and WASTE all music pirates in one fell swoop.

  26. Re:I dont think AOL like Justin much by TeddyR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hmm... maybe the only way for him to get out of his "contract" might be to get fired by aol?

    There may be a non-compete or other clause making it that if he quits, then he may have to give back some of the money/NOT be able to do what he likes.. (ie: he has more freedom now as an employee than he would if he quit; but not as much as if he was fired)....

    just a random non-thought...

    --

    --
    Time is on my side
  27. Re:GPL - Source Posted by Jameth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    - - "exactly how can AOL plan to pull that?"

    - They can't. Dave Winer has posted the source.

    They Can. Read what they posted in its place. They say it wasn't released legally. If it wasn't released by anyone with the right to the code, it isn't under the GPL, just as an employee at MicroSoft couldn't release Windows under the GPL.

    On another note, although I usually don't think companies are this Machiavellian, does anyone else see this possibility:
    AOL faked an illegal release so that tons of people would have copied of illegal source code. Then, if a similar competing Open-Source project is created they can easily claim it used their code and wasn't actually developed independently. After all, they could definitely say that the authors of the other project could have easily stolen their source code. I'd only suspect something like this because WASTE actually isn't that complex of a program. It's not nothing, but its definitely something the community could put out in a month if some people tried.

    However, I suspect it is more likely this was just a mistake, or Nullsoft not checking with the high-ups.

  28. Another possible scenario: by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 5, Interesting
    1. AOL are the copyright holders and as such the code was never released by them under the GPL so it's not under the GPL now and never has been.

    2. AOL don't own the copyright and as such the code is, and always will be , subject to the GPL.

    I humbly suggest possibility #3...

    3. AOL owns the copyright, and is trying to test whether they can "retract" a decision to release code under the GPL.

    This is actually a critical point... If AOL can "retract" this decision, what stops them from "taking back" Mozilla? What keeps SAP from "taking back" SAPdb? Many open-source projects get code from, or are even started thanks to the largesse of, large corporate interests.

    If they can establish in court that it is okay for AOL to "retract" an officially GPL'ed release, how long before a major player starts buying companies that have "right of retraction" on their open source competitors and exercising those rights?
    --
    Who did what now?
  29. MD5 Sums..... by TeddyR · · Score: 5, Informative

    Well here are the MD5 sums of the files as downloaded by me from the original site [and verified with several other ppl who downloaded it from the original site].... if anyone has a different md5sum then they should look closer at their copy of the files....

    e3609e352afba37683c47ce60f9086bb waste-setup.exe
    5645d0378b5bca6d2cf337686dca9a4d waste-source.tar.gz
    554cfa7350333aa4e6eb3b6e24201 d80 waste-source.zip

    --

    --
    Time is on my side
  30. Re:GPL - Source Posted by grahammm · · Score: 3, Informative

    There is one very large difference here. The code was published on the "official" nullsoft web site, therefore it was released officially. There would be a considerable difference between the Windows source code being published with a GPL licence on www.microsoft.com/windows/source/ and an employee "leaking" it and publishing somewhere else.

  31. Re:WHAT DOES IT DO? by jeffehobbs · · Score: 4, Funny


    It's code that gets itself mirrored on lots and lots of web servers.

    ~jeff

  32. Re:GPL - Source Posted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It doesn't matter if the source was posted on God's web site. If the individual who posted it (somebody other than God, presumably) didn't have the exclusive copyright to the code, they couldn't legally release it.

    That's what AOL is saying. And they're almost certainly right, from what I can tell.

    "GPL" is not a synonym for "I can do whatever I want."

  33. Re:Contracts? by wfmcwalter · · Score: 5, Informative
    Did the NullSoft buyout contract specify that they had to keep them on for a decade?

    Very possibly ('though probably four or five years, not a decade) - buyout contracts often do, to prevent the "human capital" from taking their stock and running. The carrot to folks is that they get lots of new options, which vest annually so long as they remain.

    Once the deal is signed, both sides often try their best to wiggle out. The stock options aren't paid out if the employee quits early, so the company tries to get the employee to quit. CEOs become directors of empty divisions with no staff and no mission, stuff like that. The company can't be _too_ blantant about it (i.e. make the CEO unblock toilets all day) as that's constructive dismissal, in which case the employee can leave with the stock (after lots of legal squabbling, of course). Equally, mr small-company-entrepreneur type wants to get the stock and bug out (either to his next startup or to Hawaii) and doesn't want to be a drone for the next half decade. So he _tries_ to get constructively dismissed. Fired for gross misconduct (not showing up, punching out his boss, etc.) won't work - so he has a bad attitude, doesn't bathe, says dumb things to the media, produces product that makes his employer uncomfortable, founds the aryian-spaceship-league, whatever. So a war of attrition is fought.

    Naturally, I don't know the terms of the nullsoft acquisition, but it may be this is Frankel's (et al) idea (or at least in his mind). I figured this was the case when Gnutella came out (AOL were _never_ going to be happy with that) and WASTE is even more AOL-unfriendly (heck, it's got a chat client - who needs AIM?).

    Someone should write a book about the constructive dismissal stories that fill Silicon Valley - Sculley sending Jobs to his own office building to do nothing (Jobs cracked rather quickly). I heard of some guy coming to work dressed in a full frogman suit (including flippers and mask) and walking down in the corridor when customers were around - company dress code said "no shorts, wear shoes" - if they'd changed it to read "no bodyglove swimming attire" just for him, then that would have been the constructive dismissal he sought.

    --
    ## W.Finlay McWalter ## http://www.mcwalter.org ##
  34. Can AOL un-ring the bell? by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The site that's there now claims that WASTE is owned by Nullsoft, and whomever posted WASTE on the server with a GPL license lacked the authority to do. As a result, AOL's view is that the GPL doesn't stick to the software because only Nullsoft held the copyright and Nullsoft didn't attach the GPL.

    What a mess here... something that's really lacking from the new page is anything that says just how "unauthorized software" appeared on the nullsoft.com site.

    - If they're claiming that they were hacked, this would have to go down as the hack of the century... I doubt that happened.
    - If they're claiming an employee acted outside of their authority, aren't they responsible for restraining that employee's actions so they don't become visible to the public?
    - If AOL's trying to overrule a decsion made by their Nullsoft division after learning about it, isn't that too little too late?

    This has got to be one of the most interesting test cases of how the GPL works ever.

  35. Re:MD5 Sums..... and now for the rest... by TeddyR · · Score: 5, Informative

    [note : there should NOT be any spaces in the links.... ./ adds spaces]
    Magnet links:

    magnet:?xt=urn:bitprint:RNADB73OZV4J56PYURKSJBOK QU YU25RO.3YIAXBOM3XGWON5QSA6TVIJUAXJHZI54FQ3LMVY&dn= waste-setup.exe

    magnet:?xt=urn:bitprint:SNMD7MSXP3QI6MY5IOF4DKUE VK UD2Y4G.6YKR7VR2TWYNPUUBOVGY5ROGMSPTA7ZZSGTECUA&dn= waste-source.tar.gz

    magnet:?xt=urn:bitprint:M6HCJRTWID2MLW2EOHL2GUK7 O2 MGJLTT.CCTSJVMC4RQC67TVJDISXHS6KEXKQIRMNM2SHCI&dn= waste-source.zip

    Ed2k links:

    ed2k://|file|waste-source.zip|261175|d9eff5442b2 f4 ab391487c21f9998679|/

    ed2k://|file|waste-source.tar.gz|214730|f5d0dbda 5e 7eb7a9774c7650fa306383|/

    ed2k://|file|waste-setup.exe|173589|5f2e6a0160b4 14 10d413a965560071e2|/

    --

    --
    Time is on my side
  36. Re:GPL - Source Posted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, no. Nullsoft owned the copyright, and Nullsoft posted it. Where Nullsoft (or the employee) was authorized to do it is between Nullsoft, AOL, and that employee.

    If Nullsoft had first set a precedent by releasing this another way, then I could see them saying that this was against their published policy, but they didn't demonstrate that this code was meant to be licensed another way.

    AOL forced them to say it after the fact, but it's just like a trade secret. There is no secret once the secret is told. If Nullsoft wants damages, then they should go after the unauthorized employee.

  37. Re:GPL - Source Posted by Arslan+ibn+Da'ud · · Score: 3, Insightful
    n another note, although I usually don't think companies are this Machiavellian, does anyone else see this possibility: AOL faked an illegal release so that tons of people would have copied of illegal source code. Then, if a similar competing Open-Source project is created they can easily claim it used their code and wasn't actually developed independently. After all, they could definitely say that the authors of the other project could have easily stolen their source code. I'd only suspect something like this because WASTE actually isn't that complex of a program. It's not nothing, but its definitely something the community could put out in a month if some people tried.

    Doesn't matter. If WASTE is really a simple protocol then it can be reverse-engineered. And therefore built w/o using any 'tainted' NullSoft code.

    After all Gnutella's protocol (and code) was reverse-engineered. No current Gnutella s/w uses NullSoft code. AOL pulled Gnutella's release just days after NullSoft released it, yet they've been silent regarding Gnutella's propagation ever since.

    --

    Practice Kind Randomness and Beautiful Acts of Nonsense.

  38. You can't sell the Brooklyn Bridge by ikekrull · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If this release was not authorized by AOL, and it isn't entirely clear that Nullsoft did not have the right to do this, then I would say that you would be forbidden from distributing the code, regardless of the fact that it carries a GPL license.

    You can't take, for example, Microsoft sourcecode from the WinCE SDK, slap a GPL license on it and claim it is now covered by the GPL.

    If, however, the WinCE division at MS, who presumably has full responsibility and authority to handle code releases put the WinCE code under the GPL and released it, in good faith, then that would be binding.

    i.e. if the city of New York sells the Brooklyn Bridge for $1 in a legal transaction, then the new owner owns that bridge, regardless of the seemingly low price.

    If it was cool to buy hundreds of thousands of acres of land off the indigenous peoples of america for some muskets and smallpox-infected blankets, this is cool too.

    However, the code has been released, so while you could not distribute the code as-is, there is nothing to prevent anyone studying the code and and releasing a compatible implementation, unless it infringes copyright (contains cut n pasted sections) or patents (not sure whether P2P patents exist or who owns them). You are not doing anything illegal if you use an MP3 (regardless of its origin) of a pop song to figure out how to make a pop song of your own. The person who sold/gave you the MP3 might have a problem however, and the owner of the copyright that covers the MP3 could demand you destroy/return it upon discovery of it's improper distribution to you.

    This would have to be ordered by a court to be legally enforceable, but you may be guilty of a crime by delaying the destruction/return if you do this in bad faith. i.e you know the copyright they hold is valid, yet you ignore their reasonable and legal request for its destruction/return.

    AOL could, assuming their claims that Nullsoft were not authorised to release the code under GPL are true, sue anyone they can prove is distributing the code for copyright infringement.

    However, if such a lawsuit was pressed, you could request that AOL prove that Nullsoft were not authorised to release software that carried AOL-owned copyright, or that they prove that Nullsoft were acting in bad faith - that is they knew the licensing terms of the software in question would violate the law or go against AOL's wishes.

    If they cannot prove this, then I would guess the GPL stands, and tough cookies AOL.

    But certainly the mere presence of a GPL notice does not convey legitimacy to the GPL license terms.

    So, what it really comes down to is 'do you trust AOL to tell you the truth that this code was released improperly'.

    If you can convince a court that you were honestly unable to determine the legitimacy of their demands (not sure you could use this as a defense against AOL, it would be watertight against SCO), then you are also OK for keeping and distributing this code despite requests from them to remove it.

    After all, they can lie to you about this and not run any significant risk because of the size of their bank account, yet you have no way to verify the authenticity of their claim without a court order for them to unseal the terms of their contracts with Nullsoft, or their sworn statement in court of law.

    How can we know that AOL is not lying about the fact they did legitimately GPL this software, and since there is no law against making false claims outside the realm of contract or consumer law, it seems a pretty murky area. Its not like AOL has any disincentive for lying about this.

    I can stand up and say 'I am the Pope of Hudson County! Bow before my lily white ass', but failing to bow is not a crime, much to my chagrin.

    It is an interesting position, and bears remarkable similarity to the whole SCO debacle.

    --
    I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
  39. The Crying of Lot 49 by Hayzeus · · Score: 4, Informative
    Amybody else get the reference? W A S T E

    We Await Silent Tristero's Empire

    From The Crying of Lot 49 by Thomas Pynchon, a covert postal service (my first domain was 'waste.com', so named for the same reasons)

    1. Re:The Crying of Lot 49 by dark-br · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Yes, I believe the name "Waste" is indeed a references to Thomas Pynchon's novel "The Crying of Lot 49." In the novel, W.A.S.T.E is either a hoax or a secret system for communication, and (might) stand for "We Await Silent Tristero's Empire." Here's a little quote:


      "Last night, she might have wondered what undergrounds apart from the couple she knew of communicated by WASTE system. By sunrise she could legitimately ask what undergrounds didn't....[H]ere were God knew how many citizens, deliberately choosing not to communicate by U.S. Mail. It was not an act of treason, nor possibly even of defiance. But it was a calculated withdrawal, from the life of the Republic, from its machinery. Whatever else was being denied them out of hate, indifference to the power of their vote, loopholes, simple ignorance, this withdrawal was their own, unpublicized, private. Since they could not have withdrawn into a vacuum (could they?), there had to exist the separate, silent, unsuspected world."


  40. What this looks like... by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 3, Insightful

    AOL's higher ups have enough clue to realize this wouldn't be used for much wide-scale P2P sharing; indeed, it's limited to 50 users so something like BitTorrent is still much better suited to piracy. Rather, AOL probably saw WASTE as a competitive edge, as it was developed so that employees working on projects at different AOL field offices could collaborate without having to worry if one of AOL's competitors (or their boss) was snooping. If it's GPLed, all of AOL's competitors get the same advantage, as AOL can't snoop on their conversations, though more than likely they're using secure VPNs or direct fiber links anyway.

    So basically, I don't think this was a case of AOL being worried about piracy, this was a case of AOL wanting to protect their company secret. You really can't blame them either way, but regardless, it's too late. WASTE will continue to be developed just like Gnutella was, and Open Source developers will probably try and reverse engineer it and write their own version just to be safe and in the clear with respect to copyrights. But this is just speculation, I might be wrong.

  41. Re:GPL - Source Posted by Cyberdyne · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Except that some random employee could just as easily post it there as somewhere else, assuming he had access to the source and the website farm. Right? The point being AOL can claim that Nullsoft division had no right to distribute that, and bingo, thats it.

    They'd have difficulty pulling that one off; as their employer, AOL is subject to vicarious liability - within certain limits, it doesn't matter whether it was authorized or not, AOL are still stuck with it. So, if (for example) a Microsoft guy gives me a free copy of Visual Studio, they can't come after me for license fees later. IIRC, the limit is whether or not it was "reasonable" (to the court) for that employee to be doing so: a PR guy handing out free samples is OK, claiming to give me authorization to post it on Usenet is not ;-)

    In this case, I'm pretty sure any court would uphold the Nullsoft action: assuming it wasn't a case of their website being cracked, the software was developed and released in the usual way, as they've released other programs in the past. AOL would have great difficulty getting past that. (Of course, they're free to delete the files from their own website - they just can't retract the GPLed copies already out there...)

  42. My WASTE Site with all the INFO by Joshuah · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.northarc.com/waste_web

    enjoy. there is also a forum for waste on the site.

  43. Re:Contracts? by jackb_guppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I had that...

    It was "No Jeans"

    So I looked up Jeans and found "made from denim", looked up denim "100% cotton twill"

    I found a blend of 70% cotton and 30% - so not Jeans.

    Then was called for that. Pointed out that legal base. They then tried:
    Lapped Seams -- showed 2 people in the room wore pants for that type.
    Cotton Twill - showed them cords in the room.
    "rivets" -- showed 2 more that had those.
    "color and look" -- pointed out the Head of HR a skirt on that was all of that -- a converted blue jeans pants.

    I got suppended for "bad attitude" without pay for the weekend. It was late Friday when it happend, I shouldn't have to work the weekend, anyway. I could not come into work, had to take the weekend off. And this was during a year I put in 3000+ hours of work. Documented! and got a great bonus at the end of year. ... I thanked them for the vacation time, and went home. At 6am on Saturday my manager called and asked if the release was ready for Monday Morning shipping. I said no, that was what I was going to doing this weekend, but you sent me home. He asked if I could come in a get it ready, he would give me whole week-off next week with pay and get me an exeption to rules.

    So the rule became: "No looking Jean pants of the colors blue, white or red."

    I had Black Jeans :-).

    I did point out the head of HR would have to give up wearing the fadded Jeans (blue w/ white patches) - he smiled and said "Yes".

  44. Re:GPL - Source Posted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I asked a lawyer friend of mine and yes the "reasonable" test does seem to be important. It seems quite reasonable for folks to assume that the software was being released under GPL.

    The law in question deals with both apparent authority and inherent authority. The basic idea of apparent authority is that if the principal "cloaks" the agent with apparent authority to enter into a contract, even if he doesn't give the agent actual authority, then the principal will be liable for contracts entered into by the agent.

    Inherent authority by contrast allows an agent to cloak himself in a principal's authority and to enter the principal into a binding contract.

    To quote Learned Hand's opinion in Kidd v. Thomas A. Edison, Inc, 1917:

    "The very purpose of delegated authority is to avoid constant recourse by third persons to the principal, which would be the consequence of denying the agent any latitude beyond his exact instructions. Once a third party has assured himself widely of the character of the agent's mandate, the very purpose of the relation demands the possibility of the principal's being bound through the agent's minor deviations."

    (I am quoting from my friend's e-mail, not the actual opinion.)

    So on this basis it would seem that software posted to the company website for download under a GPL would seem to bind the principal.

    On the other hand, AOL did act very quickly to take the software off of the website. A court might feel that this was sufficient to nullify the rights granted under the GPL to those who downloaded the software. Or a court might feel that it was AOL's internal responsibility to assure proper security procedures to prevent unwanted posting of software under GPL terms, and that the rights granted under the GPL to recipients cannot be revoked.

  45. The funny thing is... by Pulsar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I saw the original headline about WASTE on Slashdot, never even read the story, forgot about it. But now that I've seen AOL has yanked it from Nullsoft's site, I'm downloading it and trying it out, not to mention posting it in a few safe places.

    Scarcity is an amazing thing - by trying to put a lid on this, they're actually creating a huge demand for this program. I can't wait to try it out.

  46. Re:GPL - Source Posted by SubtleNuance · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Except that the person, was an agent of Nullsoft - agents of commercial entities *are* legally capable of entering into an license agreement. This protects the 2nd party (in this case the public) from Businesses backing out of a 'deal' saying "this person didnt have the right to obligate us" - in fact, (s)he does.

    imagine if some 3rd party came down on a seperate department (and previously unaware of this project) AOL for WASTE, maybe AOL's employees HAD discussed the matter with the people in their immediate sphere of relevance... all was well. teh decision to publish (and enter into the GPL license with the public) -- they cannot simply say "oh, we were just kidding". becasuse we, the public, had every reason to believe that the Nullsoft fellows had the authority (as they must have, in order to publish).

    remember, IMNALBPOO/.

  47. md5sum (Was Re:This was only to be expected) by IO+ERROR · · Score: 3, Informative

    5645d0378b5bca6d2cf337686dca9a4d waste-source.tar.gz

    --
    How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
  48. Re:WASTE... by blixel · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Has anyone here actually used WASTE?

    Myself and a friend of mine are running WASTE under Windows. Here's what I've learned so far:

    • A lot of people don't understand what public/private keys are. Myself included, allthough I believe I now understand it thanks to an analogy posted by someone else. (See below)
    • In order to establish a connection with 1 other person, both you and that person both have to have each other's Public Keys. (i.e. Jon has to know Jane's Public Key, and Jane has to know Jon's Public Key.)
    • By default WASTE is setup to broadcast your own Public Key over the Network and to automatically receive Publically broadcasted keys. If that is changed, the following does not apply.

      In order to establish a connection with a 3rd person (or 4th, 5th, 6th and so on), the 3rd person only has to have the Public Key of 1 other person on the network. The other people's Public Keys will be automatically distributed to the 3rd person once they've established their first connection. (i.e. Jon and Jane have a connection established. Nick comes along and exchanges Public Keys with Jon. Because Jon and Jane already know each other's Public Keys, Nick automatically gets Jane's Public Key through Jon, and Jane automatically gets Nick's Public Key through Jon.)


    (My findings could be wrong. This is just what I have observed to be the case with my own tinkering.)

    An analogy for Public/Private keys as described by Jellybob. My Public Key is like the key to my house. I don't give it to just anyone, I give it only to people I trust, because I have to trust anyone who has that key with the contents of my house. I have to trust they won't "break" in, and I have to trust they won't give it out.

    My Private Key is like the lock itself. If I decide I don't want anyone to have access to my house any more, I change the lock (the private key). Now everyone who has the old key to my house can no longer get in.
  49. Re:GPL - Source Posted by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    On the other hand, AOL did act very quickly to take the software off of the website. A court might feel that this was sufficient to nullify the rights granted under the GPL to those who downloaded the software. Or a court might feel that it was AOL's internal responsibility to assure proper security procedures to prevent unwanted posting of software under GPL terms, and that the rights granted under the GPL to recipients cannot be revoked.

    DANGER: Landmark test case lawsuit ahead...

    If AOL wins: The GPL suddenly becomes revokable after the fact... which could help SCO in their profit-by-lawsuit business plan, and will likely prompt somebody into trying a GPL-and-run scam.

    If AOL loses: They're now stuck with it... they just wrote and released a P2P client. Their only hope will be to try to push Nullsoft far enough away so the multibillion dollar Napster-style lawsuits only bankrupt Nullsoft and not the AOL/TW mothership. If that doesn't work, it's a horrible death for a megacompany.

    Wow... high stakes here... who thought a simple piece of software could cause so much trouble?

  50. except that they did have the rights by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The code is (c) Nullsoft, and even AOL is not disputing this. The code is not (c) AOL Time Warner, which is an important distinction (Nullsoft is a subsidiary, and so a separate legal entity). Justin Frankel essentially is Nullsoft; he's a co-founder and principal developer. The code was released on the official Nullsoft website by him, the same way most other Nullsoft software is released. In short, the release followed the standard practice used by most other Nullsoft releases (most of which, like NetMon, are uncontroversial). This is Nullsoft release policy, and Justin is basically their release manager (for at least some of their stuff -- Winamp is handled separately). Simply because AOL disliked this particular release doesn't give them a legal leg to stand on in pulling it.