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Three Gorges Dam Begins Storing Water
Anonymous Coward writes "The Three Gorges Dam, the largest hydroelectric project in the world, and one of the largest engineering projects underway right now, has begun accumulating water in the reservoir."
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The environmental and social impacts of this are massive. Many rare species will likely go into extinction, ancient temples and archeological site will be flooded under the dams 400 mile reservoir. Over a million people who live in relitive harmony with the natural will have to be relocated out of the area, and one of the worlds pristine places will face destruction.
This is one building I wouldn't mind seeing crumble.
In addition, it creates a water pathway from 1500 miles inside of China to any place in the world. Chongking, the largest city in the world, is now a seaport!
-Brett
it should be noted that the world bank, more specifically the international bank for reconstruction and development did not bank roll this project, because the human and environment costs were too great, even for them. this project was funded mainly by private contributions, lots of which are American, such as Morgan Stanley, just to name one.
This project will displace 1.9 Million people over the next year, including many unexplored aracaelogical sites in the canyon walls.
And lastly, it is believed that the amount of water being formed in the reservoir will be so great that it will put *a lot* of stress on the surrounding tectonic plates. So, casual earthquakes could become common.
But you know, anything in the name of progress...and socialism.
We don't need to do anything: just wait for the inevitable earthquake and yet another "Great Leap Forward" moment of head-slapping idiocy by our beloved party.
How about betting on how many animal species are threatened w/ extinction by habitat destruction? Or maybe some previously benign insect/animal/plant will blow with a huge population explosion and imbalance things that way. Hopefully... whatever it is will be edible.
Deltron 3030 - Virus (music video)
bah, who needs history, we never seem to learn from it anyway...
--- Brad (http://www.LinuxReview.net)
Better than mourning the thousands killed every year by the flooding.
The Yangtze killed a million peopele over the course of the twentieth century. As many as 30,000 in a single year. If the Mississippi or the Missouri killed a thousand people this year, there'd the twenty dams on it within five years.
But a lot of Westerners apparently think it's ok to bash the chinese for protecting their people, there's so many of them what's a million prematurely dead?
It would be great if news submitters would provide a bit more context for stories like this. I'd like to be able to get at least a vague idea of what this means without having to read the article. In this case, after reading the little blurb there, I have no idea what or where the Three Gorges dam is (or what its significance is), nor do I understand what accumulating water will do. Yeah, so there'll be a bunch of water back there. Does this mean that it's going to stop generating power, or maybe start? I don't know how a dam works.
I'm not asking for a dissertation here, just a sentence or two telling me what's happening and why I should care.
wtf are you talking about. Besides huang-he (the other really long river in china), yangtze is one river that kills a lot of people and destroys many homes because it floods and changes courses constantly. since the ancient times, farmers that depended on it loved it (irrigation) and hated it (floods often) because of this.
Heck, I was in Nanjin (city with several million population) back when when it *almost* flodded. The water was some 10 meters higher than the ground near the port! damn good thing all the sandbags held, because otherwise a LOT of people would have died - myself probably one of them.
if I had to move because I'd be saving people's lives? well fuck, wouldn't you? Btw, did you know that when shit like this happens (government forces you to move), they pay you a whole lot of money, at least in chinese standards? I am not personally familiar with that particular province, but in nanjin and shanghai, when farmers were kicked from their lands (when building new airport / new highway / mag-lev train / etc), the farmers got a LOT of cash for their land - in fact many of them are off to quite a good living, even better than some of the city-folks.
btw; most man-made channels silt. there are specific ships that dig those out. read about them. the technology is there. and don't forget that yangtze is a lot bigger than mississipi; so percentage-wise the silting should not be as bad.
btw; i mentioned it in another post but i say it again here - partly I think the government believes that this will become like the great-wall, etc, where they are creating a new legacy; at least thats what i think they thinks about when confronted with destroying the archeological stuff that lies the river's side.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
I just finished reading all the comments - and this one really strikes me.
I dont know if you saw that special on discovery about the project - or have read about it or maybe even talked to people about it, but here is my biased opinion that will offend many.
Fuck the chinese.
Not the chinese people - but its government and its corrupt power system (political not energy)
Fuck the chinese because they have no clue how valuable their culture really is. They have no respect forthe human accomplishments that they have made in the past - although almost all of them come at large human cost. (Ironic I know)
There is one town that is being destroyed by this project in particular that gets me. I cannot recall of find the name of the town - but it has been in place for many hundreds of years. Some of the people were crying because the houses that they live in (one family in particular) has been the family home for 450 years. That is some long tradition. Their temple was built ~700 years ago - and the place is BEAUTIFUL.
no matter how you justify any project today there is one thing that is not being even thought about or designed into any major building endevor currently - lasting beauty.
You may look at a skyscraper that going up - or recently built, or see a large structure that was designed - and it may SEEM to be beautiful, but generally they are not. We are currently confusing awe with beauty. We may be in awe over the size of a project or structure - and awe is a beautiful thing - but it is not beauty.
This is a seriously important aspect of design. If you look at all the buildings in your city as you drive around - find any that are beautiful works that will alst and be appreciated for their beauty alone for any length of time. It will be exceeedingly difficult to find any large number of structures that can actually be classified as beautiful and meaningful.
We are currently building a world of garbage. Architecture and design is sick with the cancer of modern technology.
My grandfather was a nuclear engineer - he designed hanford and many other nuclear facilites. I do technical architecture - I design networks to fit into large buildings - and design buildings to accomodate large networks. The process behind doing projects like this takes asthetics into account hardly at all... it continues to push the garbage of the modern world - and ruins the quality of our life.
You would be surprised at just how much an affect of a beautiful environment can actually have on your life.
The point with the Chinese and the dam is that this project is taking the trash designed life to the extreme expression. The largest piece of man made trash in the world - so big that real beauty and human creative effort is obliterated in its shadow, the real and true principles of the human creative spirit are ignored and killed in the name of progress.
not to mention the fact that silt will kill this dam very very quickly - making the whole "people need lights to read by, power to heat their pitiful little huts in the winter" moot as the warm little scholars are utterly destroyed by the fallacy of engineering that is this corrupt project.
Dont try to fool yourself with a "think of the children" type touchy-feely outlook. there is one thing for sure that this project is designed to do (if its structurally sound enough to last (hopefully)) - and that is REVENUE... who gives a shit if the little peasents are even literate, so long as they pay that bill!!
With many arguments positive and negative. Remarkably, however, nobody after reading the arguments think the pro-dam case is a "slam dunk." At most it's slightly on the positive side.
Yet if you step back, you realize that in a free country, there is no way a project of this sort could go ahead, unless it was such an immense and overwhelmingly positive step, a necessity -- and even then I have doubts that you could arrange for the relocation of 1 to 3 million people, even with bribes of nicer houses on less fertile land.
So if you couldn't approve of this in a free country, how can you approve of usuing authoritarian techniques to make it happen, if the benefits are under any question at all?
I toured the dam and the river last year. You may be interested in my many photos and notes, which are on my China and Yangtse photo pages
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
18,200 megawatts of energy a year,
Sorry, an article that confuses units of power with units of energy isn't "better" by any rational measurement.
Ummm....given that the Chinese already have a number of nuclear weapons (if not particularly great delivery systems) this probably isn't an issue...
Why?
Or visit www.HetchHetchy.org
So when do we flood the Grand Canyon? At what point does the needs of a growing population make this acceptable?
You see civilized countries like China use science and engineering to produce more energy as the world oil production begins to pass it's peak.
Barbarian nations like the United States just start to invade and conquer anyone with oil.
Actually, just standing there would give you 150 billion pounds of force.
Jumping would give you much more.
"But a lot of Westerners apparently think it's ok to bash the chinese for protecting their people, there's so many of them what's a million prematurely dead?"
Well, that philosophy worked for the Chinese during the Korean War. Why else do you think we never fought the Chinese (officially)? There were too many of them, and they were all too willing to just keep sending Chinese soldiers 'over the hill' to their deaths in any conflict. We had limited human resources, and were never so committed to the war as to send millions of Americans back 'over the hill.'
Just my $.02!
Mmmmmm... Bold, yet refreshing!
Maybe not, but CA is already the worst power-strapped state in the US. I can't exactly compare to Africa and have you relate to it now, can I?
Back when I lived in china, we had candles in the kitchen drawer, because power-outages were a monthly event during summer (and i lived in the city!). When that happens, all the lights in the district went out, and the fans quiets down, and everybody goes out to the balcony to look at stars, get bit by mosquitos, and fan their hand-fans profusely.
if you had homework that you havn't finished yet? well tough fucking luck because you either do it under the candle or you wait it out. And yes, people *complains* about CA power availability.
Not to mention that CA already set up the world's largest wind-farm. I don't know, but i can't harly consider that to be not having an impact on the environment. But of course - it's in the US so it's ok if it kills halfs the birds that dares fly through. And hey! it even makes discovery channel as one of the most exciting engineering achievements in the world! how exciting.
didn't want to unload this on you - because i am not precisly replying to your question, but I get quite tired of listening to people who never knew what a power-outage is to complain about "what a shame" because they rode a tour ship through the three-gorges as if that really justified keeping the place so they, on vacation, can have some place exotic to go and take pictures.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
You know you are right, that isn't even close to a fair comparison.
10,000? Buddy if this things goes at full capacity, it would be more like 1,000,000.
>You would be surprised at just how much an affect of a beautiful environment can actually have on your life.
I fail to see the beauty of thousands killed annually by flooding and no real plans to power the world's largest country.
Sadly, many westerners like our above poster come off as so elitist they can easily be mistaken for racists. To them, it seems, the rest of the world is a potential tourist attraction and the natives better be "authentic" e.g. underfed, undereducated, sheoless, and surrounded by beauty. Well, enough beauty that'll fill up the card on your digital camera so you can view all this beauty on the plane ride home. Whatever happens to the natives is their problem, right?
The rest of the world is not a potential vacation, its an active and constantly changing place. Sure, the dam has criticisms just like anything else, but spare me your thesis on the beauty of the the environment and what seems to be bad news for your vacation plans.
>You would be surprised at just how much an affect of a beautiful environment can actually have on your life.
and overvaluing it to an absurd degree makes you sound a little crazy.
I won't know how long the dam will hold, but if it breaks, much more than 10,000 people will die.
The figures might be in the TENS OF MILLIONS.
Before it starts to hold water, the dam is already CRACKED !
Cracks as wide as 1.3 meters already appeared in the dam. The cracks are due to SHABBY CONSTRUCTIONS, and the RAMPANT CORRUPTION on the part of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).
Instead of using FLEXIBLE CONCRETE MATERIALS, lower quality concrete that is SO RIGID it is FRAGILE, was used.
Lots of engineers had grumbled about the shabby construction, but NO ONE IN THE CCP WOULD LISTEN as long as their pockets are lined.
Chief of the culprit is the NOTORIOUSLY CORRUPTED LI PENG and his family, with Jiang Jemin comes very close.
I still remember Zhu Yongi tried to halt the construction due to the improper materials used, but he couldn't find any support amongst the CCP hierarchy.
Now China has sinked more than 28 BILLION in the projects, and what they have is a GIGANTIC WATER-BASED TIME BOMB.
America doesn't need to bomb China to bring it down. China has done that to itself.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
With appropriate and judicious distribution of resources, with effective management, with proper education, I dare-say that people will live longer and more happily in such a nation.
Ahh. The agitprop is now in full swing. Careful your slip is showing. You somehow think your country of shiny, happy, brainwashed, socially illiterate shit-farmers are superior to the yuppie you deride? Why are most Chinese politically disinterested? Why is China ruled by corrupt tyrants? Could it be that sustenance living is not the motivator which gets people thinking about the philosophical underpinnings of their society and its rulers?
So what if 50% of the nation plows with oxen and washes clothes by hand? With appropriate and judicious distribution of resources, with effective management, with proper education, I daresay that people will live longer and more happily in such a nation.
And I suppose you are willing to sacrifice the wonderful life of driving an Ox around until your hands bleed to be a "Central Planner." How noble. The inner party and the people are truly in your debt.
1.4 BILLION people. consider. [...] So, yes, three-gorges is a beautiful place, but if this allows that many people to afford heat in the winter, or lights under which to read, so be it.
If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, at the end of all of this is a world in which every resource is devoted to the survival of a population that fills the planet to capacity.
The only solution to our problems is to get our population under control now. And the only way to do that peacefully is to reduce birth rates to below maintenance levels and shrink down to a global population of 1-2 billion again.
Reducing population growth to below maintenance levels is a very hard thing to do: individual countries see it in their interest to grow just a little more than their neighbors, and our entire economic system is based on ideas of growth and youth. But if things keep going the way they are, global pandemics and wars will decimate populations for us. Which do you prefer? Being limited to one child, or billions dying in wars and epidemics?
Otoh, I really think the current party do partly hope that the dam will turn out to be like the great-wall - legendary, etc. To that I go "huh?"
Oh, it will be legendary alright: if humanity survives long enough, it will be an infamous symbol to the idiocy of the 20th and early 21st century.
Yes, the Three Gorges dam is an ecological and cultural disaster. But most of the critisism being expressed here is (I suspect) being expressed by Americans (I'm one too). Does this make sense? Don't we Americans consume more energy per-capita than any other nation in the world? We drive to work in huge SUV's - why do we need such huge vehicles to transport one person? The US imports huge amounts of oil to power these SUVs which leads to all sorts of geopolitical problems (see: The Middle East). Instead of trying to reduce our consumption of oil we go and fight wars in the Middle East so that we can install regimes which are more favorable to us so we can keep the oil flowing - we are like the Roman Empire of old.
So China is just trying to be like US - they want a modern, industrial, consumer-based society - nevermind that that our sort of society probably doesn't scale to 1.4billion population due to the devestating ecological effects. And to be just like US they need lots of engery, hence the dam project.
Also consider that all of us typing these posts are doing so via computer. As we continue to push clock speeds higher and higher, power consumption in processors increases - power consumption in CMOS is something like cfv^2 (f: frequency, v: voltage, c: capacitance) so the faster we run'em the more power they take. Now consider that a 2GHz Athlon or Pentium packs all the power that your average Joe user will ever need - perhaps now that these processors are consuming in the 75 to 100 watt range, we should be putting more effort into reducing power consumption, instead of increasing clock speeds?
I suspect we could be doing a lot more with a lot less and since the rest of the world seems to be hellbent on emulating US, why not try to set a better example?
If they so badly needed that power, then they SHOULD construct the dam PROPERLY.
The dam was constructed with not only shabby methods, but also with inferior-grade materials.
My friend works for an international construction firm that has consultation contract with the Chinese on that project, and he told me years ago that the dam would last 30 years.
I thought he was joking then, but now I know he wasn't.
The report of CRACKS, HUNDREDS of them, have appeared, and many of them are as wide as 1.3 METERS !
Now the Chinese are worried, but it's all too late!
The official press is putting up BOLD FACE EXCUSES telling the world that the cracks are of NON-CONSEQUENCIAL! They keep on repeating the PARTY-LINE that "THE DAM IS CONSTRUCTED TO WITHSTAND AN EARTHQUAKE IN THE MAGNITUDE OF 7" and the worse part of the whole LIE is that the theory of "withstanding earthquake" was NEVER tested in term of the dam construction. Plus, that assumption is based on a PROPER construction with NONE of the inferior materials that have been used.
For example, instead of using concrete that has been designed to withstand tremendous power, inferior concrete was used. Instead of using the concrete that can STRETCH and FLEX so that it won't break, much cheaper rigid and fragile concrete was used.
According to my friend, the former Chinese Premier, Zhu Yongi tried to intervene on the matter, when he learned of the dishonest practices, but he was VETOED by his CCP comrades in the politburo. Both Li Peng and Jiang Zemin prevented Zhu from taking any action, because both Li and Jiang were (and are) on the take.
So there was NO WONDER in Zhu's departing speech late last year, that he reminded the world to see him as an honest politician that did not tolerate any corruption. That remark was designed specifically to distance himself from the likes of Li Peng and Jiang Zemin, in case hyper-projects like the Three Gorges Dam breaks.
If the dam breaks, tens of millions of people will die, and they will die because of Jiang Zemin and
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Fuck the chinese because they have no clue how valuable their culture really is. They have no respect forthe human accomplishments that they have made in the past - although almost all of them come at large human cost. (Ironic I know)
If anything, China is a lesson for how ineffective and sterile large, stable empires are. China had all the resources to become a technological powerhouse when Europe was still living in the dark ages. But China's centralized government and bureaucracy prevented that.
It took the squabbling mess of dozens of little kingdoms, nation states, and business empires in Europe to bring about modern science and the industrial revolution.
This is a lesson the US should keep in mind when basking in the glory of being the world's most powerful nation and the single largest economy: size is not good when it comes to innovation.
And it is also the EU should be way of before going too far in terms of integration. The right path for the EU is to restore the free movement and trade effectively enjoyed by Europeans without destroying the individuality and competition among European nations.
Before you mod me down as a Troll, think about this:
Why do undeveloped nations think they need big ill thought throught project like this. Free the people and let them do the thinking and drive the economy.
Right now, China's economy is experiencing an incredible boom. They are not "free" so being free is not a requirement for a successful economy. Right now, the G8 leaders are discussing how to fix the worlds three "economic engines" -- the U.S., Japan, and Europe -- all of which are stagnating. These people are all free. Therefore, freedom does not imply a successful economy.
It's not just "undeveloped" nations that do mega projects like this. All nations do them, and for good reason. The U.S. dammed the Colarado with a giant dam. Funny, they claimed to haved needed it for electricity. I guess China is too "undeveloped" to need electricity.
He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
Because, as we know, the human race is on the brink of extinction itself and cannot sustain such losses.
If you want to volunteer for suicide to help with the population problem, you have my complete support in your endeavor!
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
What you fail to realize is that the decision to build the dam or not is up to the Chinese *and the Chinese alone*. No foreigner has any business telling them to do otherwise - especially one who seems to think he has some moral imperative that supercedes that of the people *who actually live there and own the land*.
Goddamn, but I am sick and tired of assholes who think they have some right to tell other people - especially people in other countries - how to live. If the Chinese want to build this dam, then more power to 'em. If it collapses due to lousy construction well, perhaps they'll do a better job next time.
Either way, I don't have any right to tell them what to do - and neither do you.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
And the only way to do that peacefully is to reduce birth rates to below maintenance levels and shrink down to a global population of 1-2 billion again.
Ah, yes. What we need is an Orwellian superstate with the power to 'license' how many children we'll have. Who gets to decide? No doubt the people you personally approve of to make the decisions, eh?
Which do you prefer? Being limited to one child, or billions dying in wars and epidemics?
What I prefer is for assholes to tend to their own house, and stay out of my business. If I choose to have one child or ten, that isn't your concern. Don't like it? Too bad - that's something called 'freedom', and if you want things to be different then offer an incentive that tempts people to keep down the birth rate. In the First World it appears that affluence is a decent way of doing this, without any need for some fascist state to enforce draconian measures.
You can choose the carrot, or nothing - the stick isn't an option, at least not to people who believe in little things like 'liberty' and 'rights'.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
I fail to see how I am a troll.
OOOHHHHH I disagree with the animal rights movement. Gotcha. Better sensor my ideas. Wouldn't want any impressionable kids to see my line of reasoning.
Next thing you know they will be conservatives, and we couldn't deal with that.
I have a question for you people that think I am a troll.
Since we have instituted the Endangered Species List what percentage of the species we have put on that list have been taken off that list as being 'No longer in danger of extinction'.
Back up your claim.
See the system is broken. I know you find the idea offensive that somehow my life is worth more then say a bunny rabbit, or a turtle, or possibly the SARS virus. I know the mere thought of Capitalism is offensive.
Speaking of that.
Has anyone else taken notice to how this whole 'Green' thing is really bent around 'anti-capitilism'?
Look at the yearly G-8 fiascos.
Since when is rioting and looting gas stations doing anything to help the environment, or poor people.
From where I sit if you think I am a troll then you look like a troll to me.
Speaking of that, am I alone out of getting more satisfaction out of modding people up then modding trolls?
I let other people modd trolls, I mod people interesting and informative. I like rewarding.
Oh, there is that conservative liberal thing again. Sorry about that.
Now back to our regularly scheduled ranting.
Flood proof housing has been around for age. They are usually refered to as 'boats'.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
Yeah... like depleted uranium... it kills the enemy AND poisons your own troops :)
So what if 50% of the nation plows with oxen and washes clothes by hand? With appropriate and judicious distribution of resources, with effective management, with proper education, I daresay that people will live longer and more happily in such a nation.
Gosh that sounds like....Communism. Sure worked great for the first 35 years of new China. Only 30 million dead, what's that all in the name of "judicious distribution of resources"?
and what is it with people who think that the "new" ecosystems are going to be an improvement on what was there before?
and while we're considering the impact of the land under lake mead, let's also consider all of the land downstream, up to and including the (dying) colorado river delta. as somebody who lives in the desert, i can tell you that the riparian areas are even more vital to the integrity of the bioregion than they are in wetter climates.
as much as i dislike the hoover, parker, and glen canyon dams, i'd have to say the thing that pisses me off the most is what they're doing with the water (and remember, the primary purpose of these dams is not generating electricity, but water storage). golf courses, lush green lawns, fountains, artificial ponds, etc. great, let's store lots of water so we can build the big cities in the desert and waste it all.
fuck you.
I cannot believe that this elitist bunch of crap got modded up.
"As for electricity, many Chinese did fine without it for most of history"
You want to make comments like that, you shouldn't make them on an electonic device asshole.
It's ok to condemn 10-12 percent of the worlds poplulation to living in the dark, but it's ok for you to have electricity to power you computer?
Everybody here is talking about the environment, the cultural losses, and the sociological changes.
WHAT ABOUT THE POOR BASTARDS WHO LIVE BELOW THE DAMN????
The Yangtze regularly floods in the south killing thousands each year.
So what if a million people above the damn have to move? They had ten years notice to move - a one time move; the floods give a couple days notice before they come - every year.
> If the Mississippi or the Missouri killed a
> thousand people this year, there'd the twenty dams
> on it within five years.
There already are.
The problem with 3 Gorges is not that they are
building dams. The problem is that they are
building a DAM. If they built 20 dams on valid
engineering and economic principles, everyone
would be cheering. Instead, they are building a
vast monument to communist ego, destroying the
lives and livelihoods of thousands, the historical
heritage of thousands of years and millions of
lives, the ecological heritage of millions of
years and the billions of humanity. In the
process they are creating a steaming cesspool of
corruption, and threatening the lives of millions
of people.
I'd be quite happy to see 20 dams on the Yangtze.
Those 20 dams would achieve a much better effect
at a much lower cost, and in the process preclude
the 3 Gorges project.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Think of all the stresses we have in a country of 265 million people. Everybody takes a certain amount of resources, and limiting the number of people around by preventing birth in the first place seems like the best solution for them. And in case you haven't noticed, as far as China's concerned, you can take "freedom" and shove it. Despite some of the fallout from the policy, I still agree with 'em on this one issue. Nobody has a "right" or "freedom" to dump the toxic waste from their house (or business, or whatever) into a river. It's the rest of the world's business because it has effects against other people.
SIG: HUP