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Running Linux On Acer's C100 Tablet PC
Christopher Coulter writes submitted a link to this detailed guide to putting Debian GNU/Linux on an Acer Tablet PC. That most manufacturers aren't leaping to provide Linux support on their tablet PCs doesn't mean it isn't possible ;)
isn't table PC sales dropping ?
besides the cool factor, what benefit would this be of ?
for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
It now fits my main uses, which are reading academic papers, writing notes, and doing calculations.
My only question to him is: How could those needs not be met in a Windows XP envrioment? I would hope that he didn't spend too much time durring class and such trying to install Linux durring a lecture. I thought the main idea of a Tablet PC was to keep you from having so much hassle.
Because the CLI is particularly well-suited to tablet PCs, you know.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Since I know all you Lunix zealots are going to flame me, here's an addendum: yes, I know you can do plenty of things from a GUI in Debian. I use it myself. But you can't really do anything important (system-config type stuff) without resorting to a CLI, or at best an ncurses-based "gui" (that still requires use of a keyboard).
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I work for one of the "Top 5" that builds Tablet PCs, and a few of us there have been prodding for approval to look into getting Linux on the Tablet PC. We have even had people come to us representing various distros, but still, our management doesn't see the value in Linux on the Tablet PC.
Another thing is that we get HUGE $$$$$ from Microsoft for advertising and development.
I thought handwriting recognition was one of the things people were attracted to when considering a tablet. Doesn't sound like he's got that (other than the graffiti-like app). Any OS programs that fit the bill?
1) Ink integration into applications?
2) Handwriting recognition?
3) Documentation annotation?
4) Screen rotation?
If you're going to drop the cash on a tablet pc (over that of a laptop) don't you think that we need to come up with this stuff?
That most manufacturers aren't leaping to provide Linux support on their tablet PCs doesn't mean it isn't possible ;)
When will manufacturers (not just tablet PCs, but hardware across the board) realize that supporting Linux will benefit them greatly? I mean, even the small steps that nVidia has taken has won the hearts of many a geek.
I guess they just don't realize it. Funny thing is, I have a friend who works for ATI and says that they use Linux workstations do big chunks of their development, but have never considered explicitly supporting their stuff on Linux. Maybe we should be more vocal as a community.
But what does that really acheive, apart from proving to the world that you need to get a life? We already know that Linux is a highly flexible operting system, but unless there's a concrete reason for running Linux on something, it's pointless really. I'm already waiting for the first person to announce that they've converted their internet fridge to Linux.
Congratulations on getting Linux working on TabletPC hardware. It's always neat to see linux on newer and different hardware.
/search/ using ink.
/run/ the application on this linux/tabletpc is not enough. Many will not be nearly as useful as if they were built assuming some sort of ink interface.
/not/ the same as a mouse interface. It has different dynamics and unique properties. Applications, for instance, that make use of the wacom tablets will be best suited for the linux/tabletpc combo.
There are some obvious next steps here. What makes TabletPC is not merely its form-factor or the hardware bits -- it is also, in large part, the software that is running on the TabletPC. TabletPC has all sorts of software hooks to make applications function reasonably well with just ink input. Can someone out there create a linux-equivalent to the ink applications for TabletPC?
For instance, the Journal is super cool. It lets you make notes in ink (or by text), it can translate, etc. Most importantly, you can
Most linux and applications in X assume keyboard + mouse input. This is not an unreasonable assumption; however, it does mean that just being able to
Note: the Ink interface is
There are lots of apps to resize the XP ntfs partition, safer and easier to use than the ntfsresize app. Like Partition Magic or Partition Manager, or this freeware one: http://www.ranish.com/part/
I don't know why he went to all that trouble
Yes, this is kind of neat.
But for me, I won't bother with Linux on any stylus-only machine until you can get something resembling real HWR for Linux. Yes, there are softkeyboards and plenty of character recognition schemes. That isn't HWR.
While I'd rather use Linux than Windows for a number of the usual reasons, if I had a tablet, I'd use Win2k on it. At least with Windows I can get real HWR- in the form of PenOffice/CalliGrapher.
While the regular consumer cannot get real HWR for Linux, it does exist. Motorola's Lexicus division makes real HWR software for a number of platforms including Linux. However, you can't download it and install it for free, or even purchse it. You can as an OEM, but that doesn't do me much good. That, and it really blows- I've used Lexicus's HWR on a ProGear webpad under Linux. First, you have to write in a little box, not just anywhere on the screen. You cannot expand the dictionary- so you'll likely be going back to the softkb for names, etc. It is also very slow, at least on a 400 MHz Crusoe. Oh well...
I'd love to be proven wrong. If anyonem knows of any other real HWR software for Linux commercial or free, please holler!
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Next step: is there a good free handwriting recognition software? I mean one that can work in two languages on the same system? The one bundled with Windows restricts you to one language.
I wanted to purchase a Tablet, but it is useless if it can't work both in my mother tongue and in English. There is an Internet here! You can't stick to one language unless you are born English.
Aside from the "wow" factor of this, I am not sure that there are any real advantages to installing Linux on a tablet PC. One of the TPC's main selling points is the HWR, which isn't in linux. I use linux (gentoo) on the desktop, I love linux, however I have enough of an open mind to realise that linux is not the best solution to everything. I think that htis is one of those cases.
History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it - Sir Winston Churchill
I have a couple of Tablet PCs. The handwriting recognition that comes with Tablet PC is largely useless. Furthermore, ink handling is poorly integrated into the OS.
That means that when you use a Tablet PC, you are reduced to using the PocketPC character recognizer or the on-screen keyboard. And for that, Linux has equivalents that are as good or better (xscribble and xvkdb).
So far, there hasn't been much demand for connected handwriting recognition for Linux, or for ink software, because there haven't been many tablets. Now that tablets are fairly affordable, thanks to Microsoft, that is likely going to change. Open source operates in response to supply and demand; it's not usually first, but it usually fills the needs of users.
Will it be cooler or "wower" to be able to install and run WindowsXP on a PunchCard MainFrame, so you scan or bluetooth (Plug'n'Play you see?) a bunch of punch hole signals and it'll produce a nicely formatted Word document?
Can someone out there create a linux-equivalent to the ink applications for TabletPC?
/search/ using ink.
/not/ the same as a mouse interface.
Yes. In fact, a lot of software already exists. X11 has been used for more than a decade with tablets (Wacom, etc.), so all the pen input and character recognizer support is there. Furthermore, Gtk+ and a few other toolkits have low-level support for pen input.
In addition, the Linux-based handhelds already use pen input, so there is experience with, and support for, Linux and X11-based pen-based applications, although those are, of course, for small-screen devices.
For instance, the Journal is super cool. It lets you make notes in ink (or by text), it can translate, etc. Most importantly, you can
I have tried using Journal for taking notes. It makes for a slick demo, but ultimately, I find a keyboard (even a one-handed keyboard) more efficient. Note that few of the features in Journal are novel--similar software has been around for decades.
Note: the Ink interface is
You should tell that to Microsoft: most of the software running on Tablet PC has been very poorly adapted to a pen interface and feels like it's been written for a mouse.
The combination of X and ordinary free software on this platform blows away M$ offerings which restrict you to one user one computer one program, DOS days limits. Find and grep are powerful search tools and not that difficult to learn or use. KDE's embeded konsol has stylus buttons that make using the command line easy: shortcuts to history, enter and commands from a pull down menue that remembers your most common commands. Of course, for note taking, it would be much easier to simply record the conversation as ogg files and then use speach recognition to convert it, how's that for "intuitive"?. At 800 MHz, you should be able to do that, recoginize your hadwriting and serve it all out with apatche dynamically at the same time. Try that with eXPensive software.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I think the whole LOY [Linux On You!(tm)] thing is a bit pointless after a while. however i also reckon Linux is growing every day because it's showing the baby-brother syndrom, where the youngest sibling in the family always try to copy/emulate or even better what his elder siblings have done.
So if i see my elder brother has successfully installed Linux on XBox, i for sure want to install Linux on C100 with ink feature!
Where Do You Want Linux To Run Today?(tm)
First we have to ask what do you want to use the device for? If you want to bang out lots of text, forget this and get a desktop with a good keyboard. If you want to do quick email and web browse, graphiti is all you need. I've used graphiti for data logging in a plant, and it worked well with templates. If you want a little more text in your email or want to take notes, go for speach recognition. Record, ogg, recognize at your later. I'm not very impressed by programs that take many letters at a time in a drawing and process them by graphiti, so that all the errors are left embeded.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Honestly, I'd love to see anyone try and ssh anywhere with just ink for input!
.you have to peck out a username and password. Same with saving documents and creating folders. I should note that updates to the platform are coming soon to address problems like these.
Having built Tablet PC apps, I can say that there are a number of reasons why the platform just ain't there yet, and a good number of these are because its really *really* hard to design an operating system that runs in an intuitive manner with nothing but ink input. As things stand now, you can't even log into XP TE with ink. .
Anyways, its great to see alternatives for the tablet, but unless some serious dev effort is put into making Linux work with an entirely different input profile, I can't see it as real useful here.
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Don't worry, being eaten by a crocodile is just like going to sleep in a giant blender.
www.visionplate.com
This is something what MS "ink" does;o wnloads /transcriber.asp
http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/pocketpc/d
It doesn't take single line drawings and translate them into letters, it takes written words (in my crappy hand writing) and translates it.
There is also a version for the TabletPC.
This is the single biggest advantage that MS has over Linux in PDAs and tablets.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
There's also a mailing list and another web site for putting Linux on the Acer TM100.
Character support is like Palm input. One character at a time. The "ink" is one word at a time, like you were actually writing notes.
That's exactly what I said. X11 has support for pen input, so you can build whatever recognizer you like. And there are several character recognizers available already, but no good word-level recognizers.
And to alot of people who are used to writing notes with a pen and paper, its a big difference.
It would be if Tablet PC's word-level recognizer and ink support was actually usable. It isn't. It's basically junk. Maybe they'll get it right in another couple of releases, but by then, you'll probably see good Linux alternatives already.
Until then, Linux and Tablet PC are about equal when it comes to ink: character-at-a-time and on-screen keyboard input is the only stuff that really works for entering text.
I agree- the way MS has it setup by default in Tablet PC XP is ... suboptimal. Digital Ink is stupid unless the whole OS supports it- the Newton is a good example of how that can be done well. Non-ink-based HWR works fine in an OS which wasn't built around it- you draw and it makes text. You can edit the text, and the HWR software takes care of faking keystrokes. A good setup.
:)
I've used a PC with CalliGrapher/PenOffice on it and it worked pretty well. Naturally, nothing as nice as the integration that you get with an OS designed with the pen in mind from the start, but still.
Yo're not reduced to that on the tabletPC- no reason you cannot install PenOffice. I agree that you can get soft-kbs and stroke recognition on Linux that are as good as anything like that will get.
I think the lack of real HWR for Linux goes beyond just there not being many tablets. I think there is a deeper issue, although the lack of tablet-x86-ish hardware is a factor. From my discussions on a number of forums and irc channels, it seems that most Linux developers and users don't think there is any value in connected handwriting recognition. They often think that there is no psychological difference between writing a *word* just as you'd write it on paper and having the system be intelligent enough to translate that into plain-old text and picking apart each word you want to input into letters, seperating it all into the strokes which match up with them.
I am not saying there will never be real HWR for Linux, but it is likely a long way off. For one, as I mused about above, too many Linux users and developers think that real HWR is a good for nothing "Eat Up Martha." Second, real HWR that is accurate, consistent, and fast enough on semi-modern hardware isn't the easiest thing to code. It's the kind of thing people do real research on, spending a lot of man-hours developing. Not to say that kind of work isn't or hasn't been done in the OSS community- it certainly has. It just seems to be a level beyond the majority of OSS projects. Granted, a good HWR system is a level beyond most software projects in general... I hope I'm proven wrong! It may take a number of years, but I'd love to be able to have my handwriting recognizer be open source.
Ink software is something I think will come even slower. Sure, folks will probably hack something on ala Microsoft, but creating a good Ink/Text system will require the rewrite of GUI toolkits. Who knows? Perhaps we'll see a new GUI or X11 toolkit integrate this at the ground floor, and take over within a few short years...
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I've had this page up for about a month, which describes my efforts to get Linux working on a Toshiba Portege 3500 tablet PC. It has slightly different hardware than the other guy's machine, but probably similar enough for most people...
See my notes here;e nshots. html
http://handhelds.org/~mallum/tabletpc
and a couple of screenshots here;
http://handhelds.org/~mallum/matchbox/scre
Also it worth getting kdrive ( aka tinyX ) working as you'll then be able to rotate the display on the fly.
And I'll pour hot grits on Natalie Portman if you don't pipe down.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Everyone is talking about the fundamental problem with using linux on a tablet pc is that it's missing certain components which you paid for when you recieved XP Tablet ed preinstalled.
I'd imagine the tablet functionality is just a central library or two and could be wine'd to work with the linux tablet drivers which have been around for a while. The writing recognition app/keyboard would be the most important piece and why shouldn't it be able to return input to linux apps just like it does for Windows?
It'd no longer be pure linux but if you can run your personal favorite WM and use all your POSIX apps, whats the difference?
Can anyone knowledgable comment?