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Foundstone Shoe On Other Foot
Cimmer writes "One of the premier hack shops (to pun or not to pun) gets busted for unethically ethically hacking.
After filing a lawsuit against former employee JD Glaser for supposedly jacking company source code, Foundstone gets nailed for massive internal software piracy. Tonight's entree: Foot in Mouth."
I once worked with a terrific cracker (he ended up doing time for hacking into NASA owned systems at the University of Florida - in fact, I believe that he is still incarcerated). He really knew his shit, especially when it came to invisibly manipulating Cisco equipment and covering his tracks in Unix/Linux/BSD logs. He was also somewhat of a coder. He was kind of scary in a way. It was funny to see how much the entire operation of the IT department changed once we found out how good we really was, and how much the manager started reviewing technology laws. He was on our side, our white hat, and still everyone was immensely wary of him.
Even though he effortlessly secured three large networks and found glaring problems with our state-wide backbone, he was canned out of fear. He was later found guilty of causing damages to the network after his termination, at the same time he was busted for the NASA fiasco (the FBI had been watching his movements for some time). In hindsight, I can say that our cautious approach towards him was warranted, even though it caused him obvious grief when he was employed with us.
Hell, he will be making twice my salary at McAfee or something when he gets out of prison anyways, why am I feeling bad for him?
Corporations who use one legal copy of software to install on all their company machines are doing damage to open-source.
Think about it: If it were impossible for them to just rip-off Windows, Outlook, Office, Ultraedit etc. they would use Linux, Evolution, OpenOffice, Scite/emacs/vi/whatever, since they obviously don't want to spend any money on software.
graspee
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
I don't know what arsen is, but if it has got anything to do with the goatse dude then yes .... not very pretty indeed.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
How many of you run Winzip without a valid license?
of the "Microsoft profits from piracy." idea. Another facet of this is that many of these companies get caught and are forced to pay up.
A rival computer store in my town has been peddling the same Windows XP key for an entire year. This hurts the business of legitimate sellers who can't compete with the price as well, and it hurts Microsoft's goal of making several hundred dollars from every desktop computer in America. Now I don't know what to believe...
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
so what did foundstone have to say? the article doesnt even say they tried to get their side. seems like jd was trying to take the heat off his lawsuit buy working the software piracy angle.
like all of us here register winzip? riiiiight.
prudence and suicidal lemmings (or according to the article, misguided squirrels)
/., I agree that a certain amount of prudence is needed to keep our world "safe and secure from those pesky hackers and virtual terrorists, etc" but come on, there are so many more critical things to worry about.
;) )
What's worse, giving away the security tool would actually endanger National Security, McClure insisted. "The public would be armed by the potential for misuses of these technologies by hackers and cyberterrorists."
without reiterating the many articles here on
and besides, the claim by foundstone that "it was 'simply impossible' to create such a toolkit in that timeframe", doesn't necessarily mean that it couldn't be done.
I hate even wasting keystrokes on this, but when I read the article, I couldn't help but imagine some corporate bigwig nearly in tears, throwing a tantrum about not getting his way... and when he (McClure) pulled the ole 'terrorist' card, it sealed my opinion. ( woo hoo, like my opinion is worth anything
I don't know who is in the clear here, but the whole situation stinks. and I fear it's just going to get worse. oh, and the kicker (IMO),
No actual evidence was presented, but McClure's arguments were enough for the judge in the case to issue a retraining order blocking Glaser and NTO from releasing Fire and Water.
perhaps this was prudent, but these days I wouldn't put any money on it. Anymore, I am inclined to believe that there are tons of lemmings/squirrels out there who are determined to try to screw up any little bit of the world which can possibly be screwed up. Although I sound rather pessimistic, I think we will get through this in relatively decent shape, but the road to get there is sure to be bumpy ride.
-John
"The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and hoping for different results"
Read the damn links. Everything you mention is covered, clearly and pretty unambiguously, in the two fairly short articles cited.
In summary, though, lots of current and ex-employees of Foundstone are backing up claims that the guys at the top had wholesale software piracy going on in-house. This partly came to light as a result of going after another company, started by one former employee and now including several more, that developed a product in the same industry in a time that, according to Foundstone guys, wasn't possible without stealing their vitally important trade secrets. Except that they forgot to say what those secrets were, the other company's product was much smaller scale than the mainstream corporate offering from Foundstone, and most of the info is likely to have been freely available or at least widely known in the business, and not trade secret at all anyway. As a result of this lot, the judge who initially forbade the other company from shipping their product lifted that injunction a month or so later on the basis that there was basically nothing but someone from Foundstone's say-so that anything was wrong.
Now go read the articles, please.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
You're a moren.
"In some ways the Foundstone tale is a microcosm of the ugly side of the dot-com craze--arrogance, greed, mismanagement, and stupidity."
The ugly side?
Spare me 'the pretty side'...I don't want to know...ok, ok..someone tell me about the pretty side of the dot-com craze... Jennifer, in accounting, perhaps? A pale yellow BMW M3 parked on the sand at Pismo Beach? A new pair of oversized Berkenstocks? A shiny new blade server with redundant power supplies and terrabytes of fiber laced storage? Corner office with a wet bar?
The company I work for is a software house that produces a prominent trading package for stockbrokers.
We're out of compliance on at least the following items:
- Windows NT
- Windows 2000
- Office 97
- Office 2000
- Outlook
- Exceed
- Solaris 8
It's more common than you'd think.
SCO is reportedly sueing both companies saying that it was their source to begin with!
J
Im actually very suprised at the reaction to this. How many of you have worked for small to mid-size IT related companies that havnt used unlicensed software of some sort. Its somewhat contradictory for a company to cry theft when they are thieves themselves, but then again as the old saying goes there is not honor among thieves. Ive worked for a few, and it doesnt suprise me one bit. Im not in shock or awe by this. And for a company that is one of the formost authorities on computer security to take part in cracking software isnt far fetched and is happening right now by other companies. If its for a proof of concept or for cheating the financial responsibilities. And as far as the accusation that they took the concept of the Extreme Hacking courses for their Ultimate Hacking courses, so what. How many smaller companies were founded by formers of other companies that applied their skills to do their own start-ups. This isnt ground breaking, its business as usual, even if it unethical. The only thing is since this article was pressed by Fortune, quite a bit of financial damage will be done to Foundstone, but thats the risk you take when you attack former employees when partaking in unethical practices.
From the articles it would appear that Foundstone preach security and educate corporate clients & toughen their clients networks. This is done for all the valid security reasons, but is third party licensing protection part of this? No way - it is a different issue.
This is like saying that they haven't registered their cars - it is an issue,but not one that would affect their business or their abilities.
I would see some of the moronic management practices that are mentioned in the article as grounds for ceasing business with these clowns, but I cannot see why a client cares less if their consultants use legit licensed software or not. If you are buying software from them, or outsourcing work directly to them then the answer is different, but these guys IP theft has no bearing on their output, it only affects their profit margin.
Their risk - their choice - their business.
"Oh yea, I forgot we still have Republicans"
I guess this is how ideologically rabid the left has gotten. Republicans, apparently, have a monopoly on corruption, and Democrats (and/or Greens) a monopoly on sainthood. By the way, did you know that John Kerry served in Vietnam?
AFAIK, only lefty Democrats think that by cutting taxes, we are "costing the government money". Get it, not collecting taxes is treated as a government expense. As if they have the right to all of your paycheck, but by the graciousness of their (the Republicans, since the last Democrat to push a tax cut was Kennedy) hearts, they'll "spend" some of your money by giving it back to you.
This copy of WinXP Pro I found on the net does it automatically, so there!
-Eyston
Employees say they were told to download whatever programs they needed by using license keys registered
only to McClure or Bahadur. (Legally Foundstone should have paid for each user.)
This must be the author's "Grand Unified Theory of Software Licensing". A lot of commercial software is actually
licensed per-machine or per-processor.
http://jesus.everdense.com/
Found this on Foundstone.com:
FS Responds to Fortune
To our valued customers, partners, vendors and future customers,
The current issue of Fortune Magazine contains a lengthy article about Foundstone that significantly misrepresents the way we do business, and wrongly states that Foundstone does not respect intellectual property rights. I am writing to tell you some key facts surrounding this matter, and to correct some of the irresponsible misrepresentations and factual errors in the Fortune story.
Foundstone rigorously defends its commitment to protect intellectual property rights, and the intellectual property rights of other software makers. To demonstrate Foundstone's commitment to protecting the commercial use of other software, an independent, 3rd party audit was completed on May 2 (more than a month prior to this article). According to Harvey Liss, President of VLSystems, which conducted the independent audit, "The vast majority of the software applications running on the 510 active Foundstone systems were properly licensed. Including operating systems and applications, several hundred software programs are in current use by Foundstone and over 95% were identified as properly licensed. In our experience, having performed numerous software licensing audits, this is among the higher rates for pre-audit compliance." We recognize that for a company whose very foundations are built on protecting intellectual property, anything less than complete compliance is not acceptable. Our aggressive growth is not an excuse for non-compliance. We've taken the necessary steps to identify non-compliance and have immediately applied corrective action through new policies, procedures and education.
The sources and recent timing of these defamatory statements about Foundstone to Fortune Magazine is not a coincidence. Unfortunately, Foundstone was forced to file a lawsuit against NT Objectives, Inc. because of the misappropriation of trade secrets and our unsuccessful attempts in obtaining key information and a reasonable level of cooperation from NTO. Foundstone recently received some favorable rulings in arbitration that would allow Foundstone full discovery rights to review NTO's code. From the very beginning, NTO has vehemently objected to full discovery, even though they proclaim innocence. This Fortune article is a deliberate attempt to shift focus away from the facts of the case and divert attention to rumor, innuendo, and misinformation.
Our loyal customers and market standing speak for themselves. While macro economic factors are negatively impacting other high-tech firms, Foundstone continues to buck the trend with impressive revenue growth, employee growth (Foundstoneâ(TM)s attrition rate is below the industry average), expanded product offerings, and solid financial stability. Foundstone respects the interests of our partners, vendors and associates, and will continue to deliver the highest quality products and services to meet the needs of current and new customers.
If you have any questions about this article, I invite you to call me or Stuart McClure and weâ(TM)d be happy to give you the facts.
Foundstone's troubles began last October when the company brought a trade-secrets case against J.D. Glaser, its former director of engineering, accusing him of stealing proprietary code.
This was, in my view, the pivotal point in the downfall of the company. It was Newton's Third Law of Motion in action. Foundstone poked Glaser in the eye, and Glaser poked back. The benches of the opposing teams emptied out on the field for an old-fashioned brawl. This human element in business and history in general has always served as a fascination to me.
If Foundstone would have let Glaser go off and start his company without the eye gouging would there have been this expose'? I think not. Perhaps the company's small regard for employees would have brought to a head problems brewing within the firm. Lots of companies are not nice to their employees; but, I don't think it would be such potent fodder for Fortune magazine.
Harpo Tunnel Syndrome--my wrist feels funny.
- Anti-piracy method 1: Spend a lot of time and effort trying to keep ahead of the serial# spreaders and/or crackers, yet still fail pretty miserably, as every other program out there does. Only the honest people actually pay.
- Anti-piracy method 2: Sit back, drink a beer, don't give a rat's ass, and the honest people still pay.
Personally, I think WinZip's got the right idea.Partly, it's the way people act that causes fear.
I guarantee if someone that good acts very professionaly, doens't brag about what they do, and keeps a low profile with regard to their skills, they won't have problems. If you present yourself as a rogue living on the edge, people will not trust you.
An employer will not fire you JUST because you know how to pick a lock, but the fact that you constantly talk about what locks you picked might scare him a little.
Dont trust your employees. Most of them are good, but all it takes are a few nasty ones to come back and bite your ass.
Not to sound like i condone their act, but lets face it every company must be using a few unlicensed software unless ofcourse they are running entirely on open source software. Say you were running a medium sized company and you have a 210 licenses & recently hired 10 new employees , are you going to immediately purchase the license for the 10 others - NO maybe when you get the next budget approval but not immediately.
There are ways to go about this without flagrantly handing over licenses to the employees.
1. Imaging for any upgrades : Ask your employees to backup their personal files on the network & take their disk for imaging. With lot of stuff coming preinstalled on the pc, the employee would hardly take the time to look at what is licensed where.
2. Have a highly trustworthy IT department that does the installations for the staff. This way employees see only the installed APP and not what went into the installation.
I have respect for this guy Jason Glassberg, Foundstone's former software-consulting guru. From the article, this is what he had to say about the litigation:
"This is bullshit,We will regret the day we became a litigious company. You realize you have zero support from the rest of the company on this action, don't you?"
Wonder why he got fired for saying that. Why sue when you know that you are not entirely perfect !?
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
The insanity of 'white-hat' security companies will surely come to an end
sooner rather than later. Securing the corporate or home network simply
isn't that difficult anymore.
Thats not to say that in some way these prepubescent, security Scooby Doos
don't have their place. But today, they are simply usurped by competent
system and network administrators and the forethought of coders to write
code with security in mind.
Think back to the burgeoning days of online commerce and the cavalier
"Internet for everyone!" in the workplace roll outs. Book wise MCSEs,
trench hardened Oracle/Solaris admins, and street savvy (but cowboyish)
Linux/BSD admins were all the pointy haireds had to turn to. It was a
friggin free-for-all against many up and coming businesses as well as some
borderline brave industry Goliaths seeking a swim in the paranah infested
Internet soup. Networks and software were regularly blasted through by
kids with code they hadn't written themselves. Sometimes it happened due
to the poor design of deployed code. Sometimes it happened because the
attacks themselves were mini-masterpieces. But whatever the reason, in a
space where people could be anonymous supervillans, the will of the
Internet (of the people) to communicate persevered. The Internet
infrastructure, and the networks attached to it, and the people running
them all got a little bit smarter and a lot wiser.
Tell the guy in the suit you want to sell him a network security auditing
tool (or service), because he doesn't have the man power to do it in
house. He may be willing to pay. Tell the manager of a group of coders
you want to sell her your competence and third party viewpoint of the
security of their code. She may be willing to pay. Tell me you want to
sell me a 250,000 dollar piece of network auditing code, or scan my
network from the outside to tell me where my vulnerabilities lie without
knowing my network already, or bebop around my 30,000+ user network
analyzing a bunch of known signatures and I'll tell you to go back to the
drawing board and tell me why your first answer wasn't to invest in a
competent enough staff to make you obsolete.
The wake up call has already been dialed by the customers at large. The
VC money won't last forever. And almost none of you are as cool as you
made yourselves out to be. I suppose in the end it will be just as
amusing to watch you tear at each other in a corporate environment with
lawyers and press releases as it was to watch you tear at each other r00ts
and mailing-list posts.
http://windows.scares.us
A reliable source claims that SCO is looking into legal action against Foundstone for infringement of their patent on Irony.
I wonder if that PDF was made with a legit copy of Acrobat.
Congrats!! It is that line of thought, one based on reality, that indicates someone that will enjoy life. And before more people start foaming at the mouth.. I do mean to say you can enjoy life and not hurt others while doing it.
This does not bode well for the industry as a whole. Think about how many companies share Foundstone's silhouette - young company, killer app, grows fast from nothing - like netForensics, ISS, et. al.
In my experience as a security analyst, the industry is chock full 'o great products that large companies hesitate to invest in because they're not IBM, Symantec, or the like. Giving 6 digits of cash to a company that could concievably go under in a year is a hard sell on my boss's boss (who signs the contracts) - and with good reason. As a result, we're left with awesome support for products that aren't always the best (IBM), or worse yet, crappy products with no support from a big company (CA).
By doing this, Foundstone has hurt a good chunk of the industry holding some great products, and by association (albeit to a lesser extent) hurt end-users of security apps like me.
akad0nric0
This sentence no verb.
what's you're IP address exactly?
This company had tried to market a ext2fs undelete tool to the computer forensics market. I looked through the binary and found several references to lib ext2 (they left all debugging symbols in so I could see exactly what files they had compiled and linked). the ext2 library is GPL and not LGPL so therefore their program should have been GPL. When we told them about it, they just wrote back and basically said "we arent violating anything". a short while later the tool disappeared from the market. Food for thought.
Nearly half of all people are below average
The reply to Kurtz was covered in an internal memo over at FC.
Wacky.
Any app where you can Zippy the Pinhead to talk to a psychologist crosses the line into OS-hood for me...
Quintus malus puer est.
Don't piss people off. No matter how much you think you are right, and how much you think they deserve it. Just don't do it. Would Foundstone have lost it's reputation and been charged with so much piracy if they had just let this guy go, shurgged it off and gotten on with thier lives?
No, nothing would have happened.
The worst thing would have been that, even if this guy really did steal code, they would have a tiny new competitor with no name recognition and no clients. Just another dot-com waiting to fall flat on it's face...
If you go out of your way to not be an asshole, even to people who richly deserve it, you'll find that your life is signifigantly mor etrouble free. Maybe you don't get that two-second moment of childlike glee when you "stick it to them", but then again, is that worth possibly losing the entire company for? Foundstone thinks it is, but I disagree.
Now, a pressing question is what about this is even news worthy? Slashdot is now helping rake a shop through the mud even though software piracy runs rampant in most businesses (especially those in the tech industry)? Are we now going to be subjected to stories like "company X accused of software piracy" where "company X" is any random org? Yes, "company X" probably has some pirated software floating around, but that doesn't mean they should get a slot on the front page. Besides, since when does the
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