School May Turn Down $43K In Free Macs

Longfeather writes "Tukwila, Washington's cash-strapped Foster High School may have to turn down US$43,000 worth of free Macs because of a PC-only IT policy already in place. Read here(1) and here(2)." Surely some school would be willing to bend (or rethink) policy rather than turn away new computers.

Comments

Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Gruturo]

I foresee that, as a result of this brilliant strategy, many of the parents might move their kids to other schools, and this story will add to the long list of people who signed a deal with the Devil and ended up pretty badly.

(Hint: as the article says, 2 years ago the school won a $427.000 grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. Sure, this is totally unrelated and I believe it)

The fun part is that it says the refusal is due to the school's policy of only having Windows PCs in order to keep maintenance costs and staff down. Too bad they already have many Macs around.

I hope Apple makes this story very, very public

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Zelet]

I did a study at my university because the Science department had to eliminate a lab. We had two Windows PC labs and a Mac lab. Part of this study was to find TCO for each lab. In short we found that the Macs were significantly cheaper in the long run. This was for a couple of reasons (there were more but these were the most significant:
1. Longer lifespan for both hardware and software for Macs
2. Administration costs were lower (hours of tech needed for each lab
3. Licensing was cheaper

We found that once we purchased the Macs the actual cost to maintain the Mac lab was almost nothing. A single tech could take care of the unix servers and the mac lab while each of the other labs needed two techs a piece.

They got rid of a PC lab.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite this grant, PCs are STILL cheaper to buy and maintain generally

Cheaper to buy? No, not really. Apple's education programs are second-to-none.

Cheaper to maintain? Uh... how do you get cheaper than ZERO? Every machine Apple sells as part of their education program comes with AppleCare for the life of the machine.

Consider that hiring ONE Mac-savvy tech to add to their IT team would cost almost as much as the value of the grant in ONE year and would certainly exceed it in two.

How about spending the forty-five minutes necessary to make their existing staff Mac-savvy, then?

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Babbster]

The biggest difference is delineated in your first sentence: "I did a study at my university..." [emphasis added]

High school students are going to be a LOT tougher on equipment than students at university, so in terms of hardware longevity a comparison between the two is invalid on its face.

Furthermore, a university is necessarily better funded than a high school and so they can afford to experiment with different platforms - in fact, the nature of universities is such that they would be EXPECTED to be trying different things and teaching on many different platforms.

And here's the most fundamental question: If your science department had a PC lab and a Mac lab and had to eliminate one, which would they choose? Just my guess, but I suspect that they would eliminate the Mac lab for the simple reason that not only are more people already familiar with them but they're the most likely to be used after college is over.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Ioldanach]

2) The article also points out that the Macs in use are for teachers who prefer them. Presumably, a teacher who is familiar enough with Macs to have a preference for them needs little in the way of tech support to maintain his/her personal Mac.

Careful with those assumptions there... I have a friend who works for the local school districts. Apparently teachers are some of the worst problems on the network. They mess with settings until the computer is all out of whack, and expect tech to just fix it. Heaven forbid, though, that the tech should happen to lose any of their data in making it work again. Most don't know the difference between a local disk and the network disk, so when their computer crashes and has no backup they blame the tech. Of course, if they'd followed policy and numerous repeated instructions, by saving to the network drive, it would all be backed up.

And that's just the stories I can think of off the top of my head, they do get worse than that.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[dadragon]

The part that will score the points is where he lists "Microsoft Office".

I have Microsoft Office on my Mac.

Just because it's not a PC doesn't mean that it can't run popular apps.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[pmz]

High school students are going to be a LOT tougher on equipment than students at university, so in terms of hardware longevity a comparison between the two is invalid on its face.

I disagree. University computers take a lot of wear and tear, if only due to 24x7 high-volume use. It isn't uncommon in a lab of 100 computers to have three or four stations out of order for various reasons.

...a university is necessarily better funded than a high school...

True. My University's labs of Sun workstations was much nicer than my high school's lab of 486s.

...I suspect that they would eliminate the Mac lab...

It depends. I would expect that the science students would favor Macs, because they are easier, more elegant, and do have a good selection of scientific software. The business school, being mostly populated by Excel-addicts and Bill Gates groupies, would probably keep the PC lab.

If UNIX or Linux were in the mix, the science students might gravitate toward them. Writing scientific software under UNIX is dreamy.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[peaworth]

but Schools are charged with preparing students for employment, essentially.

Really. While getting a job is a beneficial effect of going to school, I always kind of thought that the point of going to school was to get an education. Meaning, learning how to think, getting basic skills required to learn more in the future, getting exposure to knowledge outside of their immediate environment. If goal is just to get them into a job and get them on the consumer treadmill, why not just teach them to flip burgers, kick them out and be done with it?

And when these kids get employed, they will most likely be using PCs, regardless of OS.

Um, if it's a PC "regardless of OS", then the most important thing for them to put on this resume you refer to is "A Pentium IV 2GHz biege box with 512M of RAM and a 80G hard drive"?

the student putting MacOS on the "Proficiency" section of his resume is only adding a feather in his cap. A dirty, weather beaten feather. The part that will score the points is where he lists "Microsoft Office".

Doesn't "Microsoft Office" run on MacOS as well?


Using any of the current OS's gives kids general skills needed for dealing with computers. To think that they have to be trained on any particular system is really pretty short sighted. The way you accomplish various goals even changes between versions of Microsoft Office.

To turn down free equipment because of this kind of policy is just asinine. Maybe this is an opportunity for some of the kids (assuming these kids are old enough) to learn how to support different kinds of computers (and add that to their resume) since the school doesn't want to support them.

But, if they are rejected, at least the kids will be exposed to an important concept that will prepare them for employment: corporate policy.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Anonymous Coward]

SCHOOL MISSION POLICY:
Foster High School
Our mission is to help every student acquire the necessary knowledge, skills and tools to prepare for and move confidently and competently into the future. Our learning community provides all students an opportunity to set and pursue goals as they explore
their individuality.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Zelet]

I was going to reply but you hit the nail on the head. There are a couple of things I would like to add.

High school students are going to be a LOT tougher on equipment than students at university, so in terms of hardware longevity a comparison between the two is invalid on its face.

Even if they are tougher the comparison is still valid. If two people beat equipment the same way the poorer equipment is still going to fail first. That is the reason we saw 2 year turnover for our PCs and 6 year turnover on the Macs. We still have a Mac from 1984 running as a server to collect weather data from accross the state. It hasn't been rebooted since the last tech took over. That was two years ago. Another reason is that Apple works hard to make sure their software is backward compatible. We could run Macs for 6 years because the software would work seamlessly with the newest Macs.

There is talk of another round of budget crunching and we may have to merge the two labs. There isn't enough space for all the computers and the decision has already been made to get rid of the extra PCs and keep all the Macs. First because they are so much cheaper in the long run and second because of such high demand from both the students and the teachers. Not only that but our Xserve and Linux servers play nicely with the Macs and we don't have to worry about a service pack breaking everything with an undocumented change.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[mythr]

I did notice the same trend at my university, where I worked as a tech for a while to pay tuition. I think this is mainly influenced by the fact that Mac's do not have floppy drives. I swear that almost 90% of the things we got sent out to fix on PC's were the floppy drives. Some idiot would try to pull their disk out the wrong way and leave the metal sleeve in the drive. The software problems were negligible because only artists used any of the Mac's, and the rest, for the most part, sat there at the login screen all semester. The other hardware (ie. not floppy related) problems were essentially equal between the two platforms, and both quite low.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[ealar dlanvuli]

If I ever saw someone list MSO on their resume, they wouldn't get the first interview.

The ability to use a word processor / spread sheet should be so fundamental that everyone understands everyone else can use them.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[pi radians]

A few years ago I was attending school to become a systems analyst. During that time we were all required to lease an IBM ThinkPad and soley use PCs throughout the time in class. We learnt how to program in VB and we were all taught the ins and outs of Office. When the opportunities for co-op came around everyone was competing against each other for jobs. Basically we all had the same skills.

I had only one interview and it basically went like this:

President (of the company): "Have you ever used a Mac?"
Me: "Yes I have, for about 15 years."
President: "Can you start on Monday?"
Me: "Yes I can."

Thanks to the fact that I am extremely proficient on both PCs (Windows or Linux) and Macs I got one of the best co-ops available. It is now my full time employment (I have since graduated) and I would have to be crazy to look for another job.

Just so you know, thanks to a particular "dirty, weather beaten feather" attitude many people have today towards different computing platforms I am the only one of my peers that can travel and the drop of a hat (just got back from Alaska), afford basically anything I want and spend the majority of the time having fun at work instead of trying to sell cellphones at the local mall.

Don't ever think that knowledge, in any respect, is a waste and never advise someone that only their skills on only the most popluar mediums will get them through life.

Variety == Spice

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[pmz]

There isn't enough space for all the computers and the decision has already been made to get rid of the extra PCs and keep all the Macs.

Just a thought: You could get a second-hand Sun SPARCstation 20 or Ultra 1 workstation...just to stir things up a bit. Just seeing that odd-looking beige and purple pizzabox on the corner desk would embed in the students' minds that there really are alternatives out there beyond Microsoft and Apple. Solaris isn't a bad first UNIX, either, and is a good stepping-stone to Linux, especially Red Hat.

Another good option (and probably more feasible) would be putting Linux or NetBSD on a couple of the macs (maybe one of each!).

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Zelet]

You try telling a clueless administrator what Linux is. They would be like, "Loonics? Is that some type of pirate stuff?" :)

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because it's not a PC doesn't mean that it can't run popular apps.

Just because it's true doesn't mean that people realize it.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[pmz]

You try telling a clueless administrator what Linux is. They would be like, "Loonics? Is that some type of pirate stuff?" :)

1) Tell them it is the latest-n-greatest in educational software for computers. Tell them that hundreds of universities use it. Tell them how cost-effective it is. (no lying needed!)

2) Don't tell them at all. (riskier, but getting the students hooked first might force the administration to play along)

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Basehart]

I still can't believe Bank Of America here in Seattle is still using Mac SE's. They are slowly being phased out (after what, 15 yrs) in favor of PC's but who could possibly argue that those particular Mac's weren't a good deal?!

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[steeviant]

"Not that I think turning down free equiptment is a good thing. You can always use them as standalones for the art dept, or some for some other function, but Schools are charged with preparing students for employment, essentially. And when these kids get employed, they will most likely be using PCs, regardless of OS."

I'd argue that modern Macs at least as relevant as a Windows based desktop PC to any kind of vocation that works with enterprize level computing hardware.

Even x86 based server hardware bares little resemblance to desktop machines, so if that hardware is being used to run a Unix, Linux or BSD flavour then the experience using Microsoft Office on a desktop PC is going to be of little to no value at all.

Mac OS X is based on BSD, people experienced with modern Macs are more likely to feel at home with a Unix based OS than someone who's never used a Unix machine their life.

"I question the wisdom of turning down a free computer, but realistically, the student putting MacOS on the "Proficiency" section of his resume is only adding a feather in his cap. A dirty, weather beaten feather. The part that will score the points is where he lists "Microsoft Office".
You don't have to like it, I don't even like it, but that's the way it is."

Actually, that's not the way it is.

Macs run Microsoft Office you know, Excel was developed on the Mac and ported to Windows.

A student whose resumé states they are experienced in using both Macs and Windows is probably going to do better when showing his resumé to a prospective employer. This school isn't talking about throwing away their PCs in favour of free Macs.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, we need to get the word out that the little devil wannabe, er....I mean Apple, the benevolent charity organization, is trying to enslave new users...er....help free people of the tyranny from Microsoft! Yay!

Why is it that anyone who is competing with MS is automatically excused from any and all objectivity or skepticism? Apple is trying to do THE EXACT SAME THING. Hello?

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[SpamJunkie]

Sounds like you are in Canada. So am I.

Where do you work and how can I get a job there?

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Benley]

Every machine Apple sells as part of their education program comes with AppleCare for the life of the machine.

What? This is bullshit. Don't get me wrong, I really do like Macs, but the above statement is not true. If it was, I'd certainly know about it, as all of the macs I buy (15 or 20 a year) are through the Apple store for education.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[KU_Fletch]

I can back that statement up with my experience. I got to sit on a hiring committee for a new staff position that was responsible for being the technology "outreach" coordinator to students (letting them know about services, labs, computer deals through the university, etc). Because our labs are about 75% PC / 25% Mac and we have a good contract with Mac for shwocase technology, Mac knowledge was crucial. In the 400 something applications I had to sift through, I eliminated (by policy, not choice) 370 applications because they mentioned no experience with Macs.

The job market wants students to learn as much as possible about as much as possible (to steal a bad marketing phrase). Teaching kids how to use PCs AND Macs will benefit them so much years down the line. Hell, exposing the kids to computer use benefits them PERIOD.

As the teacher said "In a time of serious budget crunches in the schools, for them to turn down a gift of $43,000 just seems asinine." Couldn't have phrased it better myself.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[zero_offset]

I had only one interview and it basically went like this:

President (of the company): "Have you ever used a Mac?"
Me: "Yes I have, for about 15 years."
President: "Can you start on Monday?" So in other words, you walked into exactly the same situation, but it just happened to be Macs instead of PCs, and that makes it OK?

As a side question, does 15 years experience on Macs really carry over to the current platform? I mean, 15 years ago puts you in the Mac IIx (SE/30) days. I don't use Macs, I'm asking because I don't know and I'm curious.

I know your point is a PC-only school policy would have prevented most people from landing that job, but if merely using a Mac is the only qualification, that either says a lot about that company, or possibly the state of Mac-oriented employment in general...

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[lunenburg]

Cheaper to buy? No, not really. Apple's education programs are second-to-none.

Maybe for the direct-to-schools stuff, but my mom is a middle school teacher, and was looking at the Apple Education Store, and hardware prices there are only about $100 cheaper than retail.

The discounts on software are significant, though.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[York the Mysterious]

I said it in the last Bill & Melinda post like this. THEY LET YOU USE WHATEVER YOU WANT. I was at a school that got a multimillion dollar grant and we bought 4 G4s for video editing and Final Cut Pro. They also fund a school that uses Sun thin-clients. They don't really care what you do because they have their own board of directors that isn't linked to Microsoft. They just want to see that you're doing something innovative in eduction. And as I said before I used my paycheck from Billy boy to buy this G4. So for all you out there buying Windows licenses. Thank you. It runs like a champ.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[York the Mysterious]

They come with the tech-support portion of AppleCare for life. That is true and is a very nice selling point, but they do not come with the hardware replacement portion of AppleCare. I get to deal with iMacs with dead Maxtor hard drives at my Mom's school that are out of warranty all too often.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Put it this way: He knows how to eject a CD on a Mac. He can change the default printer. He knows how to "right-click" with a single mouse button. There really isn't anything else to know.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[MarkX]

Solaris isn't a bad first UNIX, either, and is a good stepping-stone to Linux, especially Red Hat.

That's funny. I remember when Red Hat was the stepping-stone to Solaris.

Mark

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Another reason is that Apple works hard to make sure their software is backward compatible. We could run Macs for 6 years because the software would work seamlessly with the newest Macs.

This is probably true with pre-OS X software (I'm not sure, I despise the old OS). However, this has been a little bit different lately. Apple's own iCal doesn't work unless you have OS 10.2.3, which is 3 major patches and 2 major OS revisions away from being "backward-compatible". I'm not saying this trend will continue (I think Apple is still getting used the fact they run a (for all intents and purposes) real UNIX(r)-like OS underneith their pretty GUI.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that after Panther comes out (not to rumor-monger, but) things will start to stabilize, the various API's will start to stabilize and things will otherwise solidify, recreating the backwards-compatibility you mentioned the Macs once had.

Re:Another deal with the Devil goes bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Sun beats out Apple most of the time for paying for easily more than half of large education purchases in some cases.

If I was a parent and paid property taxes...

[Deanasc]

...in that town I would throw a holy fit at them.

Isn't this kind of government waste why god invented Fox News at 10?

Re:If I was a parent and paid property taxes...

[MachineShedFred]

Might be off topic, but the State of Washington doesn't have a property tax.

Re:If I was a parent and paid property taxes...

[Wetware]

Property taxes are levied at the county level. They are painful, but I certainly prefer them to a state income tax.

Re:If I was a parent and paid property taxes...

[MachineShedFred]

Replying as a resident in Oregon where we have both, I feel your pain.

Schools are often very very stupid.

[pmz]

I wonder if that school also has a "zero tolerance" policy where bright kids get expelled for having prescription cough syrup in their locker.

Re:Schools are often very very stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

(horribly offensive, so anon)

How to Speak Australian...

Shower

Red meat

Foster High School.. Australian for dumb.

--os

Re:Schools are often very very stupid.

[pmz]

Red meat

Does this mean I've reached the top, that I can go no higher? Strange feeling, to now be a god attracting the reverence of cowards. (Sigh) what I really wanted was wealth, not fame.

Re:Schools are often very very stupid.

[Anonymous Coward]

God forbid that you actually enforce the rules equally for everyone. Zero tolerance should mean zero tolerance, now if you want to argue if it is a good idea to have a zero tolerance policy, that is a different matter, but also off topic like the parent. Moderators are stupid.

Re:Schools are often very very stupid.

[pmz]

Zero tolerance should mean zero tolerance, now if you want to argue if it is a good idea to have a zero tolerance policy, that is a different matter, but also off topic like the parent.

Zero tolerance policies are probably one of the stupidest most naive things to ever be implemented in schools. Hence, the similarity to the PC-only policy of the school in the article. When a policy is absolute, it serves only to shut out good alternatvies and ends up victimizing the people who were supposed to be protected.

Ignorance and FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Washington state. You surely didn't think that a school superintendent in Washington state would make up his own mind about which computers were easier to maintain, when he has a load of ex-Microsofties and Microsoft-wannabees hanging around waiting for the Call up to Redmond?

If he had standardized on Macs, how much money would he have saved by now?

Re:Ignorance and FUD

[dtfarmer]

It's Washington state.

Actually, it's not just Washington State. It's probably more Foster High School. An ex-girlfriend of mine went there back in the early 90's (she did the community college thing her junior and senior years because the academic programs at FHS were so poor).

Anyway, I showed her the story last night, and she said "Figures. I thought they were morons then, and it seems they haven't changed."

I notice things like this at my school...

[Dr Reducto]

All the teachers like to use their iMacs and the occasional powerMac, but the school is now buying Dells, partly because they don't want to switch to OS X, and partly because the retards at my school want to use the same type of computer they have at home.

Variations of this story

[kawika]

I know Slashdot is a hotbed of anti-Microsoft bias, but would you be as outraged by these similar stories?

"School may turn down $43K in free Windows PCs; school has a Linux-only (or Mac-only) policy."

"King County WA school may turn down $43K in free Macs; many parents are Microsoft employees and want to support their employer's products."

Re:Variations of this story

[klui]

Maybe the district's original 400K grant from Bill Gates has something to do with this? Either way, it sounds like a political decision rather than technical.

Re:Variations of this story

[xutopia]

Well actually you do have a point but... if they have a Linux only policy they could simply delete Windows from all the free machines and install Linux on them instead! :-)

That way they are not locked in by proprietary software and don't have to worry about their licences running out on them or having to upgrade to a new MS Office because Office XP files can't be read by MS Office 97! :-)

Re:Variations of this story

[zoloto]

actually yes, i would be outraged.

if ms decided to donate the PC's, i would expect them to accept them- delete the MS clutter on the hdd and install linux. also, if that same school got mac computers and the IT had a policy of linux only, just wipe the mac os off it and install linux.

not hard folks, move along

Re:Variations of this story

[fiftyvolts]

Or perhaps a better way to look at it is if Microsoft was in the business of giving that many computers to educators with "No strings attatched" do you think there would be a anti-microsoft sentiment on /.?

Re:Variations of this story

[kawika]

You mean it was a choice between $400K or $43K? In that case it's even more of a no-brainer. :)

If the "free" Macs come in the door, IT will be expected to support and upgrade them. If the school system has a site license for Windows products it won't apply to the Macs and IT will need to purchase compatible software. One or more support people will need to be trained in Macs. Additional hardware may be needed and won't be able to be pulled from their standard PC supply sources.

These are all real costs. It doesn't seem anywhere near $43K in real costs though, and any reasonable organization has to be flexible on policies. I just get tired of Slashdot stories that make it look like there is only one side to the issue.

Re:Variations of this story

[Anonymous Coward]

The point is not that policies qua policies are bad things. The point is not that the schools in question are considering turning down free stuff.

The point is that the policy in place in this instance is stupid, and they're considering turning down free stuff that's better than what they're paying for.

We're not being simplistic about this. This is a dumb decision, policies be damned.

Re:Variations of this story

[kawika]

So you'd also be okay with the school system selling off the Macs for money and buying Windows PCs with the proceeds? I don't think the donors would like that.

Re:Variations of this story

[zoloto]

that's why it's called a donation. any proper donation doesn't have stipulations on what we do with the systems as long as they're being used for education. as for the donor, once it's out of their hands and it's being used properly for education, they have no business complaining.. no matte the donor

Re:Variations of this story

[klui]

Macs are already in the district, and current owners are not forced to get rid of their Macs and replace them with PCs. I take this to mean Macs are and will be supported.

Re:Variations of this story

[DAQ42]

Um, no.

Simply because Microsoft would never truly give away software licenses unless it was to tie someone down to thier platform. The headline "School turns down $43K in Windows PCs" could easily be turned into "School wins $43K is useless software, has policy not to promote closed source monopoly".

And the second on you made up makes no sense. Um, hello, these are Microsoft employees. You know they don't have kids. They just assimalate other peoples kids...

Re:Variations of this story

[Juanvaldes]

My HS was all mac until "PC day" came around. Since we were so small we got 3 band spankin' new P2's. Our "IT" also doubled as a event coordinator and was a HUGE mac head. What did he do with these computers he didn't really want? He took them in as we NEEDED computers (still used Mac Plus's and such all over). He learned up on maintaining Windows and three other people helped out as they wanted to replace all the macs with windows. It really dosen't matter what kind of computers they are, if they can run a word processor and a brower they are great value to our nations schools.

Re:Variations of this story

[b1t r0t]

Now that you mention it... I seem to recall that Microsoft's wondeful licensing arrangements require the site to pay for a copy of Windows for every computer, including Macs. On the other hand, their Office licensing means that Macs are automatically licensed for the Mac version of Office.

Re:Variations of this story

[Sassinak]

I don't agree with that statement...

The purpose of a school is to education by exposure and train students on HOW to acquire information..

We can not simply accept something because on the very surface it looks good. Yes, I agree that schools do need equipment, and the fact that apple and micro$haft are helping in that regard, but have you looked at a ULA lately?.. A school is essentially REQUIRED to continue down the path of the dark side...

On that note, we are essentially teaching that its ok to be evil, provided that you look good doing it. (come to think of it.. that's how politicians .. umm.. nevermind)

As its been pointed out on this thread.. this is a purely political move, but has wide reaching effects..

Re:Variations of this story

[JeffTL]

If the policy were Linux-only, turning down $43K in Windows PCs would still be an up, because you can Red Hat those, either single or dual -- also for free. I don't know what I'd say about turning down $43K in Windows PCs due to a Mac-only policy. I'd probably still be against it, because free computers are a Good Thing. If you don't like Windows, as above, Linux is always an option. As for the second scenario, it'd be a waste of the taxpayers' money.

Fscked Up

[fordgj]

I work in the seattle school district, they are very PC centric, but they would NEVER do such a thing. I feel sorry for the teacher, it is his class and his kids that will be most affected on this. It is utterly rediculous for bean counters who don't understand technology to make this decision. Their tech support is scared, they don't understand the macs and don't want to. I personally manage a mixed platform school and I by far prefer maintaining the macs, my life is easier because of them. The fact is, there are studies showing that macs have a lower total cost of ownership. Plus, they are just better computers for education, hands down. They would be foolish to turn down this offer. The school board, for its pompous attitude should pony up the money personally to substitute other computers if they continue to pursue such a stupid policy. They are wrong, only the kids will suffer from their bias and incompetence.

I find it funny that...

[thatguywhoiam]

.. the school would turn down free computers - of any kind - because 'its easier to support only one kind.'

Well guess what, Sherlock - its even easier to support NO computers! Sheesh.

Re:I find it funny that...

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's why you don't get mod points.

Re:I find it funny that...

[cfoster611]

I worked at a high school, and my boss subscribed to this attitude. he aways said that "Gartner says we shouldn't support more then one platform."
I wish he would give me some evidence of this. Never mind he would usually say.
He was never fazed by the fact that our brand new Dells wouldn't outlast the old Apple G3's he was purging. oh well...

This doesn't make sence

[zoloto]

Time to burn some karma

But even without the 30 new Macintosh computers, Foster will have a stash of Macs around the school. A caveat of the technology plan allows teachers to keep their Macs at their desks instead of getting a PC if they wish. In addition, the library and a graphics classroom can keep their Macs

THe article mentions this rediculous policy for PC only systems because of their IT staff and quite frankly it's foolish. IT departments, personel etc. are constantly updating their knowledge to better deal with emerging technologies, right? Why an IT department can't have 3 of those in-DUH-viduals learn about MAC systems?

I've worked in almost half a dozen IT departments and we constantly were exposed to systems that were good for various reasons, and we had to learn. Failure to do so resulted in eventual 'replacement'. That included MAC systems. And it didn't cost the department any extra, for us to learn and actually use with some degree of success these systems. Sure we brought stuff home to learn with (including a handy g4 tower, but that's another story) but isn't that a part of the job??

The ignorant attitude of the administrative personel (probably influenced by the IT depts. unwillingness to learn mac's for some biased reason) shows their competence in the field.

just my 0.02Â - mod on!

Re:This doesn't make sence

[Babbster]

And it didn't cost the department any extra, for us to learn and actually use with some degree of success these systems.

You're either fooling yourself or you just don't understand how much training costs a company. Hardware costs are usually only the tip of the iceberg. You have to factor in the time (time=money, remember) it takes to do training, lost productivity during that training time, reduced productivity while training is initially being put into practice, etc.

While it can often be worth the investment to train on a new system, a cash-strapped school district (today that usually means 40-child classes and the like) probably doesn't have the money to spend.

To my mind, the district would be better off applying for another $40,000 (or less, since PCs are cheaper anyway) from B&MG to purchase PCs with which their staff is already familiar...not to mention the fact that the majority of computer jobs, and the VAST majority of non-computer jobs that require computer knowledge, are going to be PC-based, so the value of Macs in a classroom becomes even less.

Re:This doesn't make sence

[Anonymous Coward]

You're either fooling yourself or you just don't understand how much training costs a company.

Dude, we're talking about Macs here. There's no training to speak of. Spend ten minutes in front of one and you'll know everything you need to use one. Spend half an hour and you'll know everything you need to know to administer one. Spend another half hour and you'll be a troubleshooting genius.

That's 90 minutes per technician. In return for $43,000 in free computers AND the option of buying or accepting more Macs in the future.

Money well spent.

Re:This doesn't make sence

[zoloto]

true, time does equal money. but in each of these instances i mentioned for my old employers right after the .com burst and even today with "downtime" in our company vs' laying people off, we're given the opportunity to stay on and learn while doing regular maintenance, upgrades, repairs & whatnot- sometimes at a slight paycut for those "training days" or we just get a few less hours during the week while still learning at home or at work, but off the clock if we so wished.

so time does = money as you said. however with my experiences, it's been far less costly for my employers than if it had to train a full staff.

Re:This doesn't make sence

[Anonvmous Coward]

"The ignorant attitude of the administrative personel (probably influenced by the IT depts. unwillingness to learn mac's for some biased reason) shows their competence in the field."

Or they just realize that you can buy software for a Mac that won't run on a PC, or vice versa. That's where the problems start happening. That has nothing to do with how ignorant or non-ignorant the IT staff is. It's just the reality of mixing computers.

Re:This doesn't make sence

[fordgj]

You bring up a great angle. I think one of the huge problems that plagues technology is that the technology itself becomes the goal, not the application for which the technology is the tool. This is a huge problem with technology in schools. In this case, the end is the IT people are looking for is IT uniformity at all costs, whether or not uniformity is good for the classroom.

Re:This doesn't make sence

[Josuah]

THe article mentions this rediculous policy for PC only systems because of their IT staff and quite frankly it's foolish. IT departments, personel etc. are constantly updating their knowledge to better deal with emerging technologies, right? Why an IT department can't have 3 of those in-DUH-viduals learn about MAC systems?

You're missing the point (and your shift key). A Windows-only policy ensures that the IT staff are valuable and look smart even when things fall apart. My high school used to run only Macs. The librarians and the media techie ran everything. Then there was some stupid multi-year deal for Compaqs that made sure the school would be using old hardware in a few years and cost a lot more to hire a few more Windows people (they also tried to install and setup a Solaris server, but that's an even stupider story).

Install Macs, and watch the IT staff become less valuable. (In a school environment. It's different in an enterprise environment.)

Re:This doesn't make sence

[jellomizer]

Schools (Public, Private, Higher Ed, etc.) IT Departments are amazingly closed minded individuals. Why do you think that a lot of colleges are still running an outdated VAX or a Prime Mainframe, because the head of IT is so stuck on themselves and any technology that they don't know becomes a threat to them and they work to prevent if from creeping into their institution. The reason for this is usually the more flexible administrators usually work in the corporate sector for more cash. While the people who are very inflexible will work in the slow changing education and government sectors that way they can do their job without having to learn new things for years. The situation for not getting the new macs is probably because they have a stick up their butts about Macs (probably from 1990s or something) and are not willing to even admit or see how much better OS X is over the Classic Mac OS.

Some people would say that I am cynical on educational IT. But I know their are a lot of good school administrators out their but most of them I have seen are lazy bums who just get their computers running then they basically slack off until things degrade to a point of unsuitability then they patch it again. No planning no care for security. That is why I never feel sorry when a schools system gets hacked by a 2 year old, because they are so horrible administrator that they deserve it.

If they don't want 'em...

[nycroft]

I'll take 'em! What's wrong with that school? They're free! for cryin' out loud.

Re:If they don't want 'em...

[RedWolves2]

They are free now but they will cost more in maintenance and training.

Re:If they don't want 'em...

[Anonymous Coward]

Thassright. Macs have such a poor reliability record, and as for training... geez, they're just sooooooo hard to use!

I'll get my coat...

Re:If they don't want 'em...

[nycroft]

but they will cost more in maintenance and training

I disagree. Any IT person worth his salt can learn to support Macs on a network in about a day, probably just by himself, too. OS X makes networking really easy. There really is no need to map special folders on servers anymore. And besides, Macs are the king of cross-platform integration. Files, sharing, etc. are already taken care of.

As for hardware support, the guts are pretty much the same as PCs. In fact, things like driver issues are not even a consideration. Therefore, switching out drives and PCI cards, etc. is super easy! Actually, the end user or lab advisor probably doesn't need even need an IT person for hardware support. They can do it themselves.

It really boils down to Macs being alien to most people. They are afraid that if they use a Mac or if somebody gives them a Mac, their lives will be severely disrupted. But it won't. And again, the Macs are free, they don't have to keep them, they can trade with another school district, or sell them on eBay or something. If anything, they will save or even make money off of those Macs.

Re:If they don't want 'em...

[lungbutter]

actually it boils down to the IT departments in MOST companies understanding that would lose use their useless jobs IF their systems worked all the time. i'm not saying Macs work all the time BUT it's a FACT that the support costs involved with maintaining them are a SMALL fraction of those for wintel/linux. it bet it's a scary thought for a MCSE (or whatever it is) to imagine a world where software and hardware just worked...cuz they bet their careers that it wouldn't...

$43,000 worth of macs!

[Elwood P Dowd]

Wow! That's like, what, four whole new Macintosh computers!

(Proud owner of an iBook. Just sayin'.)

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[TaraByte]

Or one really nice digital video production station.

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you nuts? $40,000 won't get you shit for video production. For twice that you can get a pretty bare-bones machine, suitable for doing corporate work or something. For four times that you can produce your church's sunday service.

For eight times that, you're starting to talk about real video production. And for ten times that, you're just about ready to go for hour-long work.

Get a clue, hotshot.

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Alan Partridge]

What are you blathering about? Care to flesh out the bullshit?

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Anonymous Coward]

1. I don't like you. You are a troll. You know this, and I know this. You are not fooling anyone.

2. Avid Media Composer: $100,000. Smoke: $250,000. Fire: $525,000. Inferno: $675,000 and up.

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Alan Partridge]

$100K for a fucking Media Composer set-up! Not any more, pal. Jesus, even an Editbox doesn't cost that these days. You clearly neither work in post, or know fuck all about post equipment. You can online for broadcast for less than £10K these days.

Systems like Fire and Inferno are irrelevant to 90% of broadcast work.

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, even an Editbox doesn't cost that these days.

Quantel hasn't made the Edit Box for years. They have a new thing now. iQ, I think they call it. Nobody bought it.

You can online for broadcast for less than £10K these days.

Online or offline? Do you know the difference? You can offline on a PowerBook with a copy of Final Cut. You can't online on that.

Systems like Fire and Inferno are irrelevant to 90% of broadcast work.

90% of broadcast work is DONE on Fire and Inferno. Pick any post house anywhere. Chances are they've got at least one Fire, and possibly several. And where there are Fires, there are often Infernos. And even those who can't afford Fires pick up Smokes for between $150,000 and $300,000; the new version isn't half bad, and for old-school SD work (if you can find any still being done) it positively kicks ass.

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Alan Partridge]

what a load of nonsense

you're obviously a total fucking dreamer

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Anonymous Coward]

Best you could do? I was expecting more from such an accomplished troll as yourself. Maybe something about how 90% of production work is done on 1" machines, but that new up-and-coming D-2 looks pretty nifty. Something like that.

Tool.

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Alan Partridge]

You're the AC, fucknut.

Tell me again how important Inferno is to the majority of post production work? Of course, a dreamer like yourself probably thinks those little making-of documentaries that you watched on your Minority Report DVD represent what actually happens in the real world. Why not pick another industry to pretend that you know something about? You might get a better hit rate.

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Anonymous Coward]

You're the AC, fucknut.

So? I'm right and you're wrong. What's your point?

Tell me again how important Inferno is to the majority of post production work?

Very. Very-very. If your show has any sort of compositing, chances are even or better that it was done with an Inferno. Most shows don't have compositing, or paint, or treatment like that, so they're done on Fire.

Shit, man, SITCOMS are fucking finished on Fire. "Will and Grace" is finished on Fire at Complete Post on Sunset, for chrissakes.

Why not pick another industry to pretend that you know something about?

Because I don't want to spend the NEXT thirty years of my life working in a completely different industry. I intend to retire long before that!

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Alan Partridge]

""Will and Grace" is finished on Fire"

What? Little old primetime, international hit Will and Grace? You're fucking kidding me! At this rate, you'll be telling me that Friends isn't shot on MiniDV!

Here's a clue for you, arsehole, MOST post production work doesn't have million Dollar per hour budgets. Are you fucking stupid, or what?

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Anonymous Coward]

MOST post production work doesn't have million Dollar per hour budgets

Neither does "Will and Grace." Their shooting budget is on the order of $1.3 million per episode, which comes out to something like $13,500 an hour.

Are you fucking stupid, or what?

Why no, I'm not. I am, in fact, much more intelligent than you are. What you are, my little friend, is a troll.

Troll, troll, troll.

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Alan Partridge]

beyond feeble

is calling me a troll supposed to be insulting somehow?

Re:$43,000 worth of macs!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just an observation.

Actually, calling you a troll might be insulting to all the trolls out there.

Why not trade?

[booch]

Why don't they accept the Macs and trade them (maybe with another district) for some PCs?

Re:Why not trade?

[RedWolves2]

Because at that point they would get a bill for $43,000.

Apple is giving them the computers to use not to give away for something else.

Re:Why not trade?

[s20451]

Here's what they totally should have done:

1. Accept donated computers.
2. Trade them / sell them / get rid of them for profit.
3. Use the profit to buy PCs.
4. Come up with some story about how the Macs were a disaster for their IT department, completely unusable, etc., and sell it to Microsoft for some extra cash.

Somebody oughta give me an MBA.

I can understand

[booch]

This actually makes a little bit of sense. Training is not free. If their IT guys don't know anything about Macs, they're going to need some training to get up to speed. That could easily run into the $10,000+ range. Perhaps that still makes sense in total dollars, but finding the money for it could be difficult -- the $43,000 worth of computers doesn't add any money to their available budget.

Re:I can understand

[Anonymous Coward]

If their IT guys don't know anything about Macs, they're going to need some training to get up to speed. That could easily run into the $10,000+ range.

Please tell me where I can find a job training people about Macs for that kind of scratch. I could teach these techs everything they need to know in an hour. And I'd only charge $7,500 for it!

Bargain!

Re:I can understand

[tenton]

But there are Macs in the district now. Teachers still have them (they were allowed to keep them). Someone has to know how to support these, at least I would guess.

Re:I can understand

[MoneyT]

Who said they have to pay for training. My old highschool hired a student to administer the macs. The kid went on to know more about the network than any of the IT people. All the school has to do is put up an ad in the library for a student familiar with macintosh computers.

Re:I can understand

[booch]

You're not thinking like management.

Re:I can understand

[Blondie-Wan]

What a rare delight to see a Slashdotter offer such a lovely compliment to a fellow Slashdotter! :D

It's not that they don't already have Macs

[dafz1]

According to the article, there are already Macs in the school's library and graphics classrooms. Also, teachers can have Macs on their desk. This school is part of a re-organization to have three academies geared toward student interests. Expand their minds, while making them use one OS? Sure.

This gets back to a number of old (mostly bad and uninformed) arguments. Total cost of ownership, applicability of OS in the "real world", etc. I'm sure that all of the IT staff have MCSE certifications, and with that, the attitude that "Macs suck". Which was why the policy was created in the first place.

The reality is money is not getting spent on education. If it is to be believed(and I doubt it), the Gates Foundation grant doesn't specify what kind of computers are required. I applaud anyone, whether I agree with how they run their business or not, that donates large sums of money or computers to schools.

Schools shouldn't be stupid and turn away new computers, even because of some short-sighted IT proposal.

Re:It's not that they don't already have Macs

[BigBir3d]

Because we all know that all software that a school would choose to use has equal parity on Mac and PC platforms. Riiiight.

The district probably asked, "which is cheaper to buy?" The answer was something like, "Mac's go for about $1500 each, while PC's are under $999."

Apple has lost traction in the schools for many reasons, not the least of which is cost of machines, upgrading software (OS 9 -> OS X), availability of software (free or not), cost of maintenance and poor warranty services compared to Dell.

Re:It's not that they don't already have Macs

[shamino0]

The district probably asked, "which is cheaper to buy?" The answer was something like, "Mac's go for about $1500 each, while PC's are under $999."

That's probably what they believe as well, but it's a flat out lie.

Apple's eMac sells for $800 (plus a $50 RAM upgrade to make it usable). This is full list-price retail. The educational price is lower.

Re:It's not that they don't already have Macs

[BigBir3d]

Not in the year 2000 when the policy was implemented.

Re:It's not that they don't already have Macs

[MachineShedFred]

Now be nice. Some of us have MCSE certifications, run Microsoft servers, support Microsoft products, and read and post to Slashdot from PowerBook G4s. I am one, and so is one of my coworkers.

Oh, and we recently got our CIO (son of a career IBM employee, biggest cheerleader for OS/2 ever) to ditch his boatanchor of a ThinkPad and get a PowerBook.

Please don't file "MCSE" under "ignorant" - some of us have much broader horizons that you might expect.

Break the wintel monopoly. Profit!

[mnmn]

This is why schools need to get on the track of Opensourced software. So they could use any hardware, even low-end pentium 1s that people are throwing out everywhere. To a kid, the Linux interface is the same no matter if the underlying hardware is an RS/6000, iMac, Athlon or Dreamcast.

Re:Break the wintel monopoly. Profit!

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh. No.

What do these kids need computer for? Word processing, certainly, and printing. These simple tasks are needlessly complex on Linux. What else? Multimedia authoring, definitely. Pff. Linux is not capable of doing that task. What else? Presentations, probably. Linux cannot be used for that unless you're willing to teach these kids how to write OpenGL code by hand or something.

Forget it. You're out of your mind.

Re:Break the wintel monopoly. Profit!

[Anonymous Coward]

He said something unflattering about Linux! Quick! Silence him! SILENCE HIM!

School Districts have interesting problems

[stevew]

I advise my son's elementary school concerning all things that are computer related. School districts are interesting entities - There are so many dynamics running around (and different turf wars) it isn't even funny.

1) Many teachers are computer illiterate. They don't like being shown up by their students who are mostly not computer jocks because they've grown up with them!

2) Software used on campus has to be approved for use by students. This is required because teachers need to be trained on the software, hardware & OS compatibility needs to be assured, and the appropriateness of the application need to be accessed. All this usually costs money.

3) The support staff has to know how to support the hardware and software that you already have. Someone earlier said - IT guys/gals are ALWAYS upgrading their knowledge. You probably don't work for a school district!

4) School districts typically under-estimate the cost of an IT infrastructure by orders of magnitude. They have extremely in-adequate support for staff, software, and hardware support issues. Our district has roughly 50 schools at the K-12 level. Assuming about 100 computers per site you are talking 5000 machines. The district has 5 staff people to support all of this. Further, they don't budget for the up-keep of anything.

These staff are responsible for the district internet infrastructure, the network infrastructure at each school (much of which was put in place by volunteers with no documentation), repair and up-keep of all computers both at each school site and the district office. Just 5 people do all this. Yeah -right.

Let's say you get a donation of 20 Macs - that's great. These machines are going can be expected to have a 10 year life time. There are still Apple II'c in use on my son's campus!

5) Planning a district infrastructure is a nitemare because school budgets are a moving target, you receive donations from all over the board. It's a true patch-work. It's amazing anything works!

So - I'm not suprised they turn something like this down!

Re:School Districts have interesting problems

[pmz]

1) Many teachers are computer illiterate. They don't like being shown up by their students who are mostly not computer jocks because they've grown up with them!

It is ironic that many teachers are very stubborn to learn new things. A teacher can teach algebra or state history for 25 years and retire. They probably think once the subject textbook is learned, why put forth any more effort?

It is probably inevitable that some form of core technology curriculum will form along side the other subjects in public schools. However, while it is understandable to be state certified for math or history, a state certification for technology would be laughable. How long until Microsoft heavy-hitters visit state education boards and the resulting certified teachers are really MCSEs?

The techology industry is so out of balance, right now, that any technology education our children recieve will be more like Bible study than anything else. The Gospel according to our Lord and Dominator Bill is the only education they'll need, anyway. Isn't that right?

Re:School Districts have interesting problems

[cpeterso]

no wonder our nation's schools are overpriced and underperforming.

Re:School Districts have interesting problems

[JLyle]

Many teachers are computer illiterate. They don't like being shown up by their students who are mostly not computer jocks because they've grown up with them!

That may be true, but it has nothing to do with the story. If you read the article, it was one of those knuckle-dragging teachers who applied for and won the grant to get the new computers. The school may have to turn down the computers because of a school board policy. If you honestly believe that the teachers at this high school are the ones blocking this donation, you are out of your mind.

Re:School Districts have interesting problems

[deque_alpha]

I advise my son's elementary school concerning all things that are computer related. School districts are interesting entities - There are so many dynamics running around (and different turf wars) it isn't even funny.


You hit that point on the head. I am the lone tech support person for a small-ish school district (1600 students, 550 computers) and I see the other points you brought up everyday. Running technology in a school district is a nightmare, and one that I would really like to get out of. Our patchwork is incredible, and the headaches are too numerous to count. Everything you said was spot on.

HOWEVER

I think your final conclusion is totally, totally, wrong.

ANY school district that turns down $43k in new computer equipment has, IMHO, their collective heads up their collective asses. My current installed base is close to 100% PC's, but you know what, I would do unspeakable things to get $43k worth of Macs. That would be an entire lab of new machines, which would be something that would be impossible for us to come by otherwise. So what if they are different? They amount to more seats for my students. And I need more seats.

Do you know about No Child Left Behind? One of its' requirements is that each school have a ratio of 3.5:1 or better of students to instructional computers. Instructional computers. That means teacher and office workstations don't count. that means that your schools with 100 computers in each of them must have fewer than 350 students, not counting the computers for staff. Even my schools are bigger than that... Do your schools meet that ratio? How are they planning on achieving it? Certainly not by turning away $43K in brand new apples.

One of my big projects for the summer is to figure out how to build a new 45 seat lab at my middle school. I have no money to spend, so I have no idea how I'm going to do it, but $43k in new apples would sure help.

Re:School Districts have interesting problems

[ggruschow]

Let's say you get a donation of 20 Macs - that's great. These machines are going can be expected to have a 10 year life time. There are still Apple II'c in use on my son's campus!

So?

I was taught to touch-type on Apple II's and typewriters (many non-electric). The Apple II's and their software was great. IIRC, you put the disk in the drive, turned it on and some number of seconds later it told you what to do.. if you could operate a microwave, you could operate those things.

If they're having trouble with them, I could see replacing them. Otherwise, touch typing hasn't changed since then, so why bother replacing them?

Tukwila cash-strapped?

[Tumbleweed]

> It's made clear in both articles that this is a cash-strapped district

I'm surprised at this - Tukwila is a place with LOTS of businesses - one of the greater Seattle area's largest malls is there (Southcenter), with LOTS of busineeses around it - all new stuff that's used all the time, too - no ghetto anything. One wonders how they're all that cash-strapped.

At the very least, they could upgrade the existing Macs with the new ones, then sell off the old ones and any other unused new ones and buy more PCs. Or textbooks. Or IT staff who understand 'multiplatform support'. It's a school ferchrisssake - sell one of the new Macs and buy some Mac books!

Remember the old days when basically EVERY computer in school was an Apple ][? :)

Re:Tukwila cash-strapped?

[Babbster]

I'm surprised at this - Tukwila is a place with LOTS of businesses - one of the greater Seattle area's largest malls is there (Southcenter), with LOTS of busineeses around it - all new stuff that's used all the time, too - no ghetto anything. One wonders how they're all that cash-strapped.

I confess that I don't know jack about Tukwila but I would suspect that the reason there are a lot of businesses located there is because of cheaper property values and hence cheaper property taxes which would give the area a smaller tax base with which to support their schools. The way to figure out how much money a school district has to work with (without actually looking at the budgets) is to find out how much RESIDENTIAL property values. Since they mention a large portion of the student population qualifying for the free and reduced lunch cost program, I would expect residential property values to be quite low.

Re:Tukwila cash-strapped?

[Tumbleweed]

Actually, some of the nicer homes in that area are in Tukwila. It's truly strange that they would be cash-strapped. Everything in town is kept up very well. Weird.

Re:Tukwila cash-strapped?

[nycroft]

Schools are always at the bottom of the barrel for spending, though. Even the elementary/JHS schools in one of the wealthiest areas of California (the Santa Barbara/Montecito area) are suffering closures and cancelling music/art programs :( I doubt they've had an infusion of new equipment in a while. They certainly wouldn't turn down $43,000 of free anything. You can take that to the bank.

Re:Tukwila cash-strapped?

[andrewski]

Schools, on the local level, get funding through bond issues. If there are enough rich people, who probably send their kids to private school anyway, the bond issue will get voted down every time.

Another problem to tackle with education and funding re: the rich is this: In many communities, one doesn't get paid to be on the city council (a full-time job) so that leaves only the rich to do the job. They already have enough money to eat and live without having to worry about a full-time job.

Re:Tukwila cash-strapped?

[TinyManCan]

The problem with Tukwila is that while it does have a large amount of commercial property, almost nobody lives there. There is no one paying RESIDENTIAL property tax. Add in the fact that the police force has to deal with the whole SeaTac Airport and surrounding areas (ghetto, strip clubs, prostitutes, etc) and I can see why they have no money.

Another possible explination would be that the huge grant Foster recieved from the Bill & Mellinda Gate$ foundation. Hmmmmm.

I used to live right by foster. I might have to go down and 'donate' some of my spare unemployed ass time to them. That might lower the 'cost' of running these free macs.

Unbelievable

[chia_monkey]

Unfreakin' believable. I'll admit, I've got a slight Mac bias. I've worked on PCs, I've worked on Macs. I know what's easier to fix. I know that studies have shown you need something like one technician for every 50 Macs whereas you need one technician for every 25 PCs. Downtime costs money too...

But the main point...it's just dumb to say "you can only use one computer system". What if they said "you can only use Ticonderoga pencils" even if you got a whole shipment of Bic mechanicals for free? Or who knows how many other goofy scenarios could happen.

Our schools are having a hard enough time as it is. To turn down free materials is just plain idiotic.

Re:FOX News

[Tumbleweed]

> Isn't this kind of government waste why god invented Fox News at 10?

God invented FOX News? That explains a lot...

Sad IT guys.

[BoomerSooner]

If they cannot spend the two days it takes to figure out 99% of how to run a Mac they should be fired. It's not like it's linux or something that is *more* difficult to admin than windows, it's significantly easier.

I am a software engineer and I use DOS, Windows (DOS based and NT based), Solaris (2.6, 7, 8, 9), Linux (2.2, 2.4 kernel based), OS 9 and OS X. There are more similarities between these systems than differences.

I guess the line should be "Schools turn down computers because IT support staff is either too lazy or too stupid to figure out how to use a computer that most 4 year olds can use."

Pathetic really.

Re:Sad IT guys.

[Kris_J]

If they cannot spend the two days it takes to figure out 99% of how to run a Mac they should be fired.

I agree. I've used a Mac, on average, once every two months over the last 5 years, but as IT officer for an educational organisation, I'd take 30 free Macs over our leased PCs in an instant. So, it would take me a few months on and off to get them humming along as well as the PCs are, so what? Sounds like fun.

Re:Sad IT guys.

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a software engineer and I use DOS, Windows (DOS based and NT based), Solaris (2.6, 7, 8, 9), Linux (2.2, 2.4 kernel based), OS 9 and OS X. There are more similarities between these systems than differences.

Let me guess, it took you 10 days to conquer all those operating systems? I thought so.

One computer, one book

[presearch]

If they were offered $40k worth of free textbooks,
would they request that they were all the same book?
It would certainly be easier to track and catalog
multiple copies of that one book than to have dozens of
new additions to the book tracking system. If one of those
multiple books were lost or destroyed, it's replacement
overhead would be negligible.

Think of the overhead of having to provide different
teachers for the variety of subjects that multiple books
would require! Multiple teachers teaching multiple subjects,
how inefficient and inflexible. If every class in every grade
covered the same subject, thousands would be saved in salaries
and scheduling costs.

The cost-efficient school, it's the wave of the future.

Yes, this is an absurd argument, so is denying young minds
the opportunity for exposure to more than one way to approach
a problem. What makes this whole thing really stupid is that
there's not that much difference between a Mac, a Windows
box, or a Linux system. If the IT staff can't handle learning
something new as part of their job (and this is not that hard),
then they should hire people that are more capable. With the current
job market being what it is, it shouldn't be that difficult to
find people that can handle supporting Macs and Windows and Linux
and still be cost effective. If the school superintendent can't
figure that out, then it's time to replace them as well.

Maybe they can get some extra funding by eliminating student
drug testing and locker searches.

Or, heaven forbid, reducing the budget for sports activities.
How many of these kids will be working with computers,
directly or indirectly, vs. playing for the NFL or NBA?

Re:One computer, one book

[presearch]

Looking at the school's website (Google it yourself), I think
I should withdraw my gripes about athletics at this school.
It doesn't seem to be the big thing like it is here in Indiana
schools. I just wish that the board would let this one go through.
It appears they need all the help they can get.

virtual desktops and such

[stuuf]

why don't they just do like my school library did last year and hook the macs up to a citrix ICA system on a win2000 server? Oh, I know why. People like me would hack it.

Re:$43,000 in free hardware would make that...

[mkelley]

No ass, that's about 62 eMacs or 43 iBooks from the Apple Education price list. Would you rather they use commodity Dells that will be dead in 18 months?

Re:$43,000 in free hardware would make that...

[icemax]

Actually, I'd rather they have a sense of humor

Bi-lingual

[tipbg4]

When I went to highschool long ago (2 years ago) we had a computer science teacher/system admin that firmly believed in being bilingual as far as computers were concerned. He himself being a Mac guy obviously knew what their advantages were, how easy they were to use and maintain. But he also knew that not every place in the world supported macs (including our own school board that forced him to resign after they had enough of him proving their purchases of large ammounts of windows boxes to be erronious and far more costly) However, while I was there, I did learn to be bilingual (and picked up his personal prefrence for macs) Now that I am out of school, I work for a web page company that runs totally windows boxes. This was fine, except that I had a far superior titanium laptop at home that was being largely unused while at work. So (with the boss's permission, I got a few help articles together, and brought the TI into work. within 5 mins my computer was connected to the server just like all the other computers, with one major difference. My computer has yet to be nearly as problematic as the rest... kinda funny considering its a windows server...

When ignorance attacks!

[Outland Traveller]

There more [operating systems|programming langugages] one knows the more the similar they seem to be.

Any so-called IT professional who only knows one solution and refuses to learn another is a moron and a dangerous liability, because the whole nature of IT is keeping up with change and knowing more than one solution to a problem.

What a horrible example these people are setting for their students!

I don't see how anyone could turn down free Macintosh hardware. It is generally of higher quality than typical PC systems sold to pre-college institutions and requires less maintenance, plus apple has one of the best support services in the industry.

On top of that MacOS X can be used for all the usual user applications, and you get a full-fledged unix development environment built in for classes that can take advantage of it.

Show me someone who willingly turns down systems like this and I'll show you someone who doesn't deserve their job.

Re:When ignorance attacks!

[macdaddy357]

How are our children supposed to learn anything when the stupidest wastes of human flesh who walk the earth are educators?

Re:When ignorance attacks!

[andrewski]

The problem isn't the adequacy of the machines. The problems lie with the administration.

The district or school IT people obviously were looking to avoid deploying any new Macs. The head honchos are sure to be your typical PC advocate VBer who somehow got promoted and / or tenured by the district. The solution may be for the one or two Mac advocates among the faculty and staff to share the job. I have also read about schools sucessfully running student-administered machines. If you have a few good kids, you can provide incentives to keep the system running smoothly. Just like in a corporate setting, they also keep each other honest. Have a definate security policy and actually OBEY IT.

Instead of filtering all the machines web access, which won't work against clever kids anyway, just have the parents sign something to the effect of 'my child can use the unrestricted Internet' and if the parent refuses, deny access to the Web apps for that kid (with the kid being in the correct group, and using Apple's handy Capabilities... button, one can strictly control their computing environment), and if a kid is good and desires shell access or someting, give him a restricted one first. The idea here is that all of the really advanced computer users among the students will be able to establish a level of trust and responsibility gradually.

Talk about string-conciousness there!

Re:FOX News (offtopic)

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that apparently God is in the entertainment business and votes Republican.

Re:FOX News (offtopic)

[Tumbleweed]

"FOX News...your source for Evil(tm)." :)

Re:$43,000 in free hardware would make that...

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that you have spelled "conquer" wrong, right?

A More Elegant Solution...

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are short on cash, they should just go with Macs. Then they can trade in their 6 PC admins for 1 Mac admin and all will be well. :)

School Macs

[EaTiN cOfFeE bEaNs]

I'm going here. I'll take a free Mac! And I'll make the switch!

IT scam?

[tgibbs]

One is tempted to suspect money under the table from Microsoft, but it is probably simpler: The school's IT people don't know anything about UNIX, and are too lazy to learn. But they don't want to lose their jobs, so rather than arguing "We're too lazy to learn another system," they say "It's too expensive to support two different systems." And the school board wasn't technically sophisticated enough to realize that they were being taken.

Re:IT scam?

[Brett Johnson]

One is tempted to suspect money under the table from Microsoft

It wasn't "under the table". It was a $427,000 Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation grant the district received at about the same time they instituded the Wintel-only policy.

Re:IT scam?

[KU_Fletch]

Quite frankly, I think Bill Gates has bigger fish to fry than some podunk town. I'm sure the logic was more on the side of the school board after they recieve the grant. It's like when you get a bottle of wine as a present. You thank the person out of courtesy. You don't know if the wine is any good or if you'll like it, but it seems like the polite thing to do. The school district thought this tokenistic thank you was an appropriate response when they really should have just said thank you.

Re:IT scam?

[tgibbs]

I doubt if Bill Gates personally concerns himself with the individual grant recipents, but that doesn't mean that he didn't play a role in formulating the awards program. While the Microsoft grant supposedly doesn't require a particular platform, it is easy to imagine that the particular mix of computers in a school could influence the likelihood of getting such awards.

If they don't want them...

[clarkcox3]

... I'll gladly take the $43,000 off their hands.

Believe me...

[djupedal]

...they will only make this mistake one time.

The eventual lynching will occur, and when it does, anyone involved will rue the day.

Money decisions like this are one thing for schools, but having a closed mind in terms of long term resources never goes without attention.

A world full of PC idiots

[afantee]

It's like someone turns down a brand new BMW because he doesn't know how to drive it and refuse to learn the skill.

What's particularly stupid is that the school already has lots of Macs, so they should know Macs are easier to maintain. To deprive the kids of 30 computers rather than changing a senseless policy, he guy is clearly irresponsible and an idiot.

these it guys suck if they need training

[Krashed]

what is so hard about a macintosh computer. you plug it in, turn it on, and if you have a dhcp server, you are done. besides one of the macs is probably running mac os x server, it would only make sense that the grant would offer a complete mac network so it probably is computer ready to use, just set up some users, turn on the computer, log in and you are done. they can give full access to every computer and at the end of the day, the server will wipe the slates clean and be ready for the next day of abuse. the biggest problem would be a hardware failure but apple's instructions on how to replace parts are so thourough that if the "tech" was unable to follow them having never touching a mac before, should not be touching pc's either

Since when is a Mac not a "PC"?

[scootr1]

I mean, doesn't PC stand for personal computer? Is a Mac not a personal computer? Isn't there some other way to label these machines (Wintel boxes, for instance?)

Note that...

[LazyBoy]

If Microsoft gave their OS away, you'd call it"dumping"

Re:Note that...

[Anonymous Freak]

Except this wasn't Apple giving it away, it was a grant that could be used to buy Macs. Probably a private Mac-promoting organization. Yes, I agree. Usually when MS gives software away, it's 'dumping'.

If MS were to give away the whole thing, it wouldn't be so big a deal. If they were to do it willingly, it wouldn't be a big deal. But when they try to give away software as 'payment' of fines, that's not okay. MS giving away '1 billion dollars worth' of software isn't the same as paying 1 billion dollars.

If MS was to get together with a hardware company, and give away a bunch of computers, loaded with MS software (especially if the software doesn't have more limited licensing than normal,) that would be okay.

Re:Note that...

[gdarklighter]

The linked article is one regarding Microsoft giving a large discount to people switching from Lindows. That's not dumping, that's an unfair, monopolistic business tactic.

Re:Note that...

[wareadams]

Regardless what you call it, Microsoft giving away their OS is different than any other company giving away their's.

Microsoft has been shown to be a monopoly, and that ruling was never over turned. It's not illegal to be a monopoly, but it is illegal to take certain actions in order to protect your monopoly.

One of the actions a monopolist cannot take is predatory pricing...pricing your product below variable cost in order to maintain or increase your share. Clearly giving away the OS is below variable cost, and if it's done to keep out another OS (or even to keep out another word processor, server, IM client, browser, etc... as it becomes part of an illegal tying arrangement) it's illegal.

The same thing done by another company is not illegal, b/c they do not have a monopoly.

So people on Slashdot react differently, and the courts react differently, because it's against the law.

Job Openings??

[aztektum]

Keep your eyes peeled at the districts website, maybe they'll have IT positions opening up soon.

hypocrisy

[Enrico Pulatzo]

and how is this different than the Ballmer going to Europe to pursuade people to use windows?

Oh yeah, in our reaction to it. Boo MS, too bad for apple.

I just wish things would work seemlessly enough for people not to have exclusive contacts of any kind.

Re:hypocrisy

[phillymjs]

and how is this different than the Ballmer going to Europe to pursuade people to use windows?

RTFA, dummy. This grant is coming from a nonprofit organization, not directly from Apple. Ballmer's "persuasion," on the other hand, comes directly from a Microsoft slush fund.

The $43K grant was presumably open to all qualified schools, with a single winner. The Microsoft slush fund only comes into play when a subsidy is needed to block non-MS products from being purchased somewhere, with a single winner: Microsoft.

~Philly

Armchair quarterbacks...

[weave]

Lazy sys admins? Stupid administrators? How can everyone jump to those conclusions without knowing anything about the situation?

As an admin at a college, one of my biggest problems is academic departments that put in for grants for stuff, get them, then tell us we have no choice but to support it.

Like, for example, some SGI Fuel station running a 3D projection system we were recently notified we have to support . Did anyone build in tech training into the grant for this? Of course not. Just plug it in, forget about it. What about security patches, what if it won't boot, etc, etc...

Or the famous trick of grants everywhere. Many grants require some sort of "in-kind" donation from the institution. So they calculate up IT staff time and cost, use that as the in-kind donation, then expect IT to absorb it into their existing duties.

Now in my shop, we are over a year behind in many projects and have to be restrictive with new ones launched due to budget cutbacks that have cut IT staff while numbers of equipment needing to support continues to climb. So it's possible that even a little extra effort (if it really is that) would not be possible without slashing support to someone else's project.

Now, I admit, if this is a political issue, it is assine. And, since no one really cares about IT load, I would bet that this is the case.

But please, try to temper the ole "lazy sys admin" criticism. It's most likely not warranted.

Re:Armchair quarterbacks...

[MalleusEBHC]

But please, try to temper the ole "lazy sys admin" criticism. It's most likely not warranted.

I don't know about your experience, but as someone who has had to support both Wintel and Mac boxes, it takes a really incompetent/lazy sys admin to not be able to support a bunch of Macs in this environment. Any sys admin worth his weight in O'Reilly books should be able to get those Macs running just fine in a day or two.

Think about the needs of a high school. You have to get them connected to the network. This is a breeze under OS X. You need web browsing. Take your pick from Safari, Camino, Mozilla, Omniweb, or even IE if you must. For an office suite, you could go with M$ Office or Appleworks. (OpenOffice just isn't ready yet for the masses on OS X, although it is looking promising.) For a graphic design class you will need Photoshop and maybe some other Adobe products, all of which are readily available for OS X. For a computer science course, you have gcc built in. Additionally, you could install the Developer Tools, which I must say are quite nice. The only thing I could possibly imagine being a problem is the grading system teachers use, but as the article says that teachers are currently using Macs, this is a moot point.

I can't think of much else you would need from a high school computer. Getting the items above up and running should take a day, two at tops.

In reality, the reason they will not accept this comes down to one of two reasons. Either they are truly bureaucratic morons who are too set in their ways to take such a nice grant, or they are influenced too much by Microsoft given their proximity to Redmond. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a combination of both.

Re:Armchair quarterbacks...

[weave]

OK, I'll bite. Since I have experience with students in labs. One of the biggest issues is security and consistency. How does one roll out labs quickly? Prevent students from altering settings? If you use standard user logon security, then some method must be employed to have each student have a logon. Assuming the school has an active directory server, then someone needs to figure out how to make OS X authenticate against it, to somehow mount the user's windows home file share on the mac client. What about printers? How to print to that printer attached to the windows server? Does unix print serviecs (lpd) need to be loaded onto the windows print server?

Then there's faculty. If they are opposed to anything but what they are used to, doesn't matter how great it is, they'll flip. Hell, you shoulda seen the grief I got because I put Mozilla on our Windows boxes. Who gets to train them? Doesn't sound like much, but I had faculty complaining when we migrated from NT to XP. They complained we didn't provide training for XP. I'm like, huh? The start menu looks different. Big deal. So imagine throwing a Mac at them!

I'm not saying these are insurmountable issues, but I think it'll take more than a day or two as well. Plus, again, I doubt seriously that it is the sys admins refusing the donations. More like administration.

To give you a hint on my background, my place has a Windows only policy, set above my level. In fact, the last holdouts, marketing, had their G4's replaced with Dells last year. The tech staff confiscated the G4s and set them up in their offices. I got one too. I was so damn impressed with OS X that I went out and bought an iMac for home, and then a few months later, got one of the new 12" PBs. I absolutely love Macs (although I still have me 2.8 Ghz Dell with nvid ti4600 for games! :)

I know Windows desktop environment better than most, including the sheer hell of trying to get it and apps to work in a student lab environment. I have no doubt a Mac environment would have much lower TCO than Windows.

I too am the target of so-called "experts" second guessing us constantly. I grow weary of hearing the ole "My husband is a computer expert and he tells me you're doing it all wrong" crap.

Some of the comments just hit a nerve.

Re:Armchair quarterbacks...

[laird]

If you read the article, you'll see that the school already owns and supports Mac's throughout the school. So they're saying that the cost of supporting more Mac's outweighs getting a free lab full of equipment. Given that they already support Mac's, and Mac's cost less to support than PC's, it's difficult to follow the logic of turning down the free computers. I suspect that it's really some sort of politics, like someone with an out of control ego getting bent that the teacher got free machines that weren't in "the plan."

Re:Armchair quarterbacks...

[KU_Fletch]

You'll have to concede that the difficulty of implementing an SGI Fuel station into a college network is not anywhere near the relative scale of installing 30 Macs into a small school network. Hell, anybody who is a sys admin for a school district should by default need to now PC, Mac, and Linux these days. I'm not claiming they're lazy because the story has not mentioned their response, merely that the administrators shackled them with a Windows-only policy. Given their industry-standard job description and relative proximity to the Washington Tech Corridor, I'm fairly certain that they will be more than capable of putting 30 Macs in the network. This is just a case of school board members following one of their own (stupid)policies without thinking it out first. If this story is being /.'d then I'm fairly certain that they are getting enough flak about it and will allow the free Macs to be installed.

Re:Armchair quarterbacks...

[jcr]

OK, I'll bite. Since I have experience with students in labs. One of the biggest issues is security and consistency. How does one roll out labs quickly? Prevent students from altering settings? If you use standard user logon security, then some method must be employed to have each student have a logon.

Start here:

www.macosxlabs.org

All you need to know about running student computing clusters on Mac OS X.

-jcr

dueling grants

[Brett Johnson]

If you read the second article you notice that the school district instituted the Wintel-only policy at about the same time they won a $427,000 Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation grant. I'm sure its just a coincidence.

Tell them how you feel

[Anonymous Coward]

Contact the superintendent and let him know what a boneheaded decision it is to turn down $43,000 worth of any free computers, much less computers that are more reliable than Windows PCs, remain viable longer than Windows PCs, and are immune to crippling Windows viruses.

Tukwila School District
Michael Silver, Superintendent
silverm@tukwila.wednet.edu
206.90 1.8009

Clickable mailto, for the lazy

[Anonymous Coward]

silverm@tukwila.wednet.edu

Anyone?

[dacetone]

Pay taxes in Washington? King County? Tukwila even? Even bought a Washington lottery ticket? Feel like this is a waste of your money? Write a letter (Tukwila School District 4640 S 144th St. Tukwila, WA 98168), or email or call the Superintendent (Michael Silver, silverm@tukwila.wednet.edu, 206.901.8009). Sadly, the actual board members or chairman have no contact info listed, and email to lastnamefirstinitial@tukwila.wednet.edu bounces for the Chairman. As a person with a few years of tech support experience for Washington school districts (luckily, not Tukwila), I find it not unsurprising that this would happen, but it disgusts me nontheless.

cost-effective decesion?

[Anonymous Coward]

The district has a six-person technology department staffed with people expert in PCs, Silver added. Having only PCs allows the district to better maintain, repair and replace computers in a cost-effective way, he said.

Well, ermmmm... but these are Macs. You don't have to 'maintain' them. Don't they have a lower TCO than Windows making them more cost-effective, away?

Way offtopic I know but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!

Hehe, thanks for the chuckle friend, at 12:18AM taking a break from some web dev work on a project due in a couple days I sure needed it.
I knew there was a reason I turned show sigs on in preferences.

shouldn't have been a hard choice

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone offers you $10, you take it.
If someone offers you $100, you take it.
If someone offers you $43000, you take it!

It's been said before, but if i were a parent in that county, I'd be furious.

What is that last character in your sig? ة ة ة

[GPS Pilot]

What is that last character in your sig? Ø© Ø© Ø© Ø©

Mac or MAC?

[GPS Pilot]

zoloto -- please read this article:

http://macopinion.com/columns/tangible/03/03/14/

Re:Mac or MAC?

[zoloto]

And all this time I wasn't completely clear on the way to say (type) MAC vs Mac :D Danke

Okay, I'm a writer. Even worse, I'm a tech writer, and we tend to be rather anal types who are into precision, especially when it comes to punctuation and language. I'm consistent with how I write words like email, website, PoweBook, and other tech jargon. I know that MacUser has an uppercase U in the middle, Macworld does not, NeXT is properly written with a lowercase e, and REALbasic has real in uppercase and BASIC all in lower.

I don't make these rules, I just enforce them.

But there's a small thing going on that really bugs me. I can't figure out how it got started, but it's got to stop, that's all there is to it.

I'm talking about people who write Macintosh as MAC. In all capitals. As though MAC is an acronym (Macintosh Apple Computer?).

You usually tend to see this in relation to PC products. PC is an acronym -- it stands for Personal Computer -- and thus should be capitalized. So something might refer to PC/MAC, indicating compatibility with both systems. Except I'm not sure what a MAC system is: it sure ain't a Macintosh computer.

Look on a DVD with "special DVD-ROM features" and it probably says, "DVD-ROM game will not work on a MAC." Yes, shout stupidity to the world, folks!

Using MAC to refer to Macintosh is a blatant way of revealing your ignorance. It screams that you don't know what you're doing. It's an insult to Mac users and the Mac platform. It's the equivalent of a white person using the N word.

I see PC software companies that finally, after years of pleading, port their product to the Mac. The port itself is half-assed, not using standard Mac operating techniques, and the advertising screams MAC, demonstrating the company's stupidity, and then these guys complain that the Mac market sucks because no one bought their product.

Hello, people. If you took the time to actually learn about the Mac way of doing things, your product would sell. But when you try to shove PC-oriented crap down our throats don't be surprised if we don't open our mouths.

Even worse, MAC can be misleading and confusing. That's because there is a MAC acronym. It stands for Machine Address Code and is a (theoretically) unique number assigned to Ethernet networking cards. Spyware software like Microsoft Windows XP will register the MAC number of the computer you install the software on so that you can't easily move the software to another computer. (Of course if you get a new computer or your networking card dies, you're in trouble.)

Since MAC is commonly used in networking discussions, it can be confusing trying to figure out which use the author intends: are they talking about the Mac platform or the MAC address of a computer? Sometimes you'll find brilliant documents like t his one where both uses are used on the same page (but spelled the same)!

Now I can understand PC users getting mixed up and using MAC for Mac. After all, they don't know better. Companies marketing to the Mac market ought to know better, so I can't forgive them, but I can try to educate them.

However, every now and then I run across a Mac user who writes MAC. This, folks, is unforgivable. This is horrible. This person is perpetuating a crime and massacring a beautiful and elegant product name. This person should know better. This person is not a true follower of the Macintosh Way.

Let me repeat it again. It is Mac, folks. Not MAC. Mac. With an uppercase M and a lower case a and c. Even better, write it out: Macintosh. It's such a wonderful product name. Notice how everyone around the world knows Macintosh even if they aren't privileged to own or use one?

But writing MAC destroys something special. It turns elegant Macintosh into something cheap and ugly, like PC. It's loud and obnoxious, with no character and no charm. Mac is special; MAC is common.

Mac versus MAC is a small thing, but it implies a g

Re:Mac or MAC?

[kongjie]

1. I have NEVER seen anyone write MAC to refer to the Macintosh computer. I don't doubt you've seen it, but have you seen it so many times to warrent such an over-the-top outburst?

2. Your statement that this usage is the same as a white person using the word "nigger" is so outrageous I wonder if the whole mail is a troll.

Re:Mac or MAC?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm consistent with how I write words like email, website, PoweBook, and other tech jargon.

If you consistently write the word "PoweBook," I would hope that you have a good editor.

Why doesn't Microsoft just make "Windows Mac Ed"

[schappim]

Very simple solution. Why doesn't Microsoft just make Windows Mac Edition... sure pc programs wouldn't be able to run on it, but it would make those who want that 'windows look and feel' happy...

Turning Down Apple's "Largess"

[Anonymous Coward]

Turning down Apple's gift simple amounts to good business policy. Supporting multiple platforms is more costly than supporting a single platform, there is a legitimate business reason for declining the computers. Apple's "gift" is really a ploy anyway to try to "addict" kids and then get them to feed the "habit" by pestering their parents into buying Apple products. If Apple truly cared about this school district and its kids, it would simply give the grant money to the district and let them buy what is most advantageous for the district and the kids with strings. Sounds like Apple is trying to do what it doesn't want Microsoft to do. Tough noogies!

Re:Need some help in choosing the right computer

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh look at me, I'm captain shit-for-brains, and from my Toshiba laptop I mete out offensive comments because I think I'm Special."

You're not. Get a life

Today's class project

[Chelloveck]

Longfeather writes "Tukwila, Washington's cash-strapped Foster High School may have to turn down US$43,000 worth of free PCs because of a Mac-only IT policy already in place. Read here(1) and here(2)." Surely some school would be willing to bend (or rethink) policy rather than turn away new computers.

If the terms "PC" and "Mac" were swapped in this story, would the comments would be the opposite of what they are now? More power to the loyal Mac school, refusing the "free" PCs that Microsoft is offering so they can infiltrate and overrun the district!

Discuss.

Re:Today's class project

[YourMissionForToday]

We could discuss that, but I think a more important issue that has to be dealt with first is my pipewrench, which will be shoved up your ass until it's banging up against your kidneys. Now bend over-AND DON'T ACT LIKE YOU LIKE IT!

Re:Why doesn't Microsoft just make "Windows Mac Ed

[@madeus]

Could be why they bought Virtual PC from Connectix (the obvious alternative being they bought them to shut them down...).

Lol.

[BoomerSooner]

I'll list them in order:
DOS - 2 days
Windows 3.x - 2 days (trumpet winsock)
Windows 95 - 2 days
Linux 0.98 kernel slackware - 6 months
Solaris 2.6 - 2 weeks
OS 9 - 1 day
OS X - 1/2 day

So overall it took 6 months, 2 weeks and 9 1/2 days. All subsequent releases seem to be pretty much extensions more than new operating systems (with the exception of linux which has improved exponentially since I got started on it in around '95).

Linux took me a long time to catch onto. OS 9/X are simple. Hell, who cannot operate a 1 button mouse?

RTFA, morons! The $43K is *NOT* from Apple!

[Anonymous Coward]

All you dopes bitching about how different the responses would be if the school were "Mac only" and these free computers ran Windows, pay attention:

This grant is coming from some non-profit organization, NOT directly from Apple. Any schools who met the qualifications for receiving this money were welcome to apply.

Furthermore, Microsoft is a convicted monopolist whose anti-competitive actions continue unabated, even post-trial. So I think that whenever they so graciously donate Windows PCs or Windows software it's a safe assumption that they are not doing it out of the goodness of their sweet little hearts. Especially when they also do stuff like offer 90%-100% discounts on product for no reason than to try to squelch competition. *cough*Munich*cough*

I'm sure he has used a newer machine!

[douglasq]

15 years experience on Macs doesn't mean the last Mac he used was 15 YEARS AGO. It just means he has plenty of experience with them.

Fire 2/3rds of the IT staff...

[The Lynxpro]

If studies are correct that enterprises deploying Macs versus PCs only require 1/3rd the amount of full-time IT support staff, the answer is for the school district to fire 2/3rds of their IT staff if they want to cut down support costs in order to accept the grant for Mac computers. The IT staff are either contract employees or probably fall under the same union protection as the janitors and bus drivers. Firing them would be easier than firing teachers (which I'm not advocating). So, fire 4 of their 6 IT staffers. Despite the fact Macs cost more per machine (upfront) than their PC counterparts, the school districts would save more money considering how much trouble it is to police OS licenses because of Microsoft's money-hungry licensing audits of school districts and charities...

Apple is not giving these computers away...

[nek]

From the article: "...a grant from a nonprofit organization offering 30 new Macintosh computers and six laser printers..." I don't think Apple is a non-profit, do you? People seem to assume that these are coming from the company and reacting as if it's a power-grab. Relax.

6 people on the IT staff!!!

[gozar]

According to their website, they have 2,600 students. I'm the technology coordinator for a school district with 2,200 students and ~700 computers (97% Mac).... Guess how many IT people we have?

One.... I handle everything from setting the machines up to networking to adding users. Every student gets a file server account that follows them from 1st to 12th grade. All students in 6-12 get an e-mail account. Every computer is networked.

This district will be getting a call from me tomorrow, and a letter to the editor to the King County Journal.

In my first job...

[jotaeleemeese]

.... I handled a reasonably big network of mixed Macs, Solaris and Windows stuff supporting TCP/IP, IPX and Appletalk protocols.

I had no training whatsoever but a big willingness to learn and try things.

They nicknamed me "The Guru" after a few months in the work and kept calling me back after I left for ad-hoc small work.

Anybody that is working under unfavourable conditions but with reasonable management should be able to learn this stuff by themselves if needed.

Dear troll...

[jotaeleemeese]

... what part of the following sentence are you unable to grasp?:

"MS is a convicted abuser of its monopoly position".

Welcome to Washington State Land of all that is

[Dolemite_the_Wiz]

Assbackwards.

Things like this is an everyday occurance in this state.

Dolemite
_____________________

It happens a lot.

[GPS Pilot]

I have seen the incorrect capitalization "MAC" many times. It bugs me as much as people who write "viola" when they mean "voilÃ."

The article is by Marc Zeedar. The source URL is

http://macopinion.com/columns/tangible/03/03/14/

I think the article is, on the whole, very well done, although I understand your concern that he may be trivializing the n-word.

Re:What is that last character in your sig?

[pi radians]

sin(6cos(r)+5Ã)=0.3 is what it should read, but for some reason doesn't.

I'm going to try to fix that right now.

lazy admins.

[Erris]

A "windoze only" policy written in 2000 was pure politics and one built on lazyness. Any admin not learning about free software by then was incompetent and just plain lazy. Anyone who's seen License 6, the XP EULA and the W2K EULA who still thinks a Windoze only environment is a good idea is demented. Use the best tool for the job, this other stuff is bullshit.

As for the support these machines will need, they only have to shoot a few windows boxes to make time for all the Macs. Nothing but nothing takes as much administration time as Windows. Macs take much less time, unless you insist on putting M$ Word on the poor thing. Turning down $43,000 in free hardware because you don't want to learn how to click and drool the Mac way instead of the M$ way is as pure lazy as a janitor who refuses to unlock the school bathrooms because he only has time to sweep floors. It may be true, but one thing is more important than the other.

These computers might be the best tool for the job as the grant was written? It might not be possible in the limited and cramped world Microsoft makes.

Linux???

[theolein]

If they find PC's with Windows simpler to maintain, a statement that I can only believe in if they have no experience with any other OS, then they have an entirely different problem on their hands: The IT staff is incompetent. That the IT staff is incompetent is something I can believe if the district is so poor that they simply took the 6 cheapest "technicians" they could find. This district would do well in replacing the IT staff with people who could, at the least, support Linux. Their costs, since this is the motivating factor, would drop, and they would be independant of being bullied into future upgrades from Redmond.

But sadly they are probably to intellectually challenged to realise this.

Free computers not free

[fm6]

For that matter, why would anybody refuse a free computer of any kind? Because they're not free, that's why.

People are always trying to donate old computers to schools. In some cases, you have a few tech-savy volunteers who donate the time (and it takes a lot of time) needed to reconfigure that old 100 Mhz Pentium so it can run some educational software. But most just end up gathering dust -- until the school has to pay to have them recycled. Needless to say, most schools are now cautious about computer donations.

Media Access Control...

[masri]

MAC stands for "Media Access Control." Wow, I can't believe I actually corrected anyone on /.

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gc i212506,00.html

- Adam