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Matrix Gets Egyptian Ban For Explicit Religion
pajor writes "BBC News is reporting that that The Matrix Reloaded has been banned in Egypt. The country's censorship board cited violence which might 'harm social peace', but also said the 'religious themes' of the film's storyline, about the search for the creator and control of the human race, may cause 'crises'. A statement said: 'Despite the high technology and fabulous effects of the movie, it explicitly handles the issue of existence and creation, which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.'"
You're the single silliest example of constrictive Theocracy in action.
The matrix is banned because it questions your main sponsored religion/s? Keanu Reeves is a percieved threat to your rule?
The matrix is about action. The philosophy aspect of it is not at all complex. If your political system can be overthrown by Keanu Reeves, one of two statements are true.
#1: Your citizens are weakminded, foolish, and easily swayed.
#2: Your hold on power is tenuous, and you cannot handle the slightest challenge to your authority.
.
My money is on #2.
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
I dont understand how people can not 'get' the scene with the architect. Perhaps you are attempting to read into it too much? Here's a hint: he says everything straightforward. There is no obfuscation whatsoever, nothing needs to be interpreted, the whole thing is 100% just plain flat-out said. You know, with words.
So can someone please explain to me what it is they dont understand, and how they are capable of not understanding it?
I suspect that a lot of "questions about the scene with with architect" are actually just "questions about the movie in general, which everyone already had or had developed their own theories for, which the architect raised but didnt answer, so that you'll go see the third movie, not because you just can't understand his obfuscated answers"
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
The movie taught us that "The Matrix" was a system of machines that enslave and delude the human race for their own ends. But what really is The Matrix in our world? I submit that the first level of The Matrix--as close as we'll get to it in our world--is not a society of machines enslaving people, but a collection of governments that enslave their citizens.
Just as machines attempt to control the thoughts and minds of humans trapped in the Matrix, some governments attempt to delude their citizens and control what they see and hear.
Ironically, the movie often showed computers as the technology that enabled the enslavement of humans. In our world, computers do just the opposite, and promise to be the technology that frees those who are enslaved.
If you're reading this in a country that does not allow "The Matrix" to be shown, have hope. There ARE SOLUTIONS.
'The Matrix' may have you. But free your bandwidth, and the rest will follow.
North America: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then gives a passionate kiss to Trinity. R-rated for explicit sex.
Europe: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then says: "Oh fuck! Zion again. It's such a shitty place". British Board Of Film Censors (in 1984 renamed to British Board Of Film Classifiication, conveniently keeping the old acronym) gives it "restricted" rating for continuing use of strong language.
Arabian States: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then says: "Oh God! Zion again". Egyptian censors ban this film for explicit religious message
It seems that the only thing all cultures of the Earth can unanimously agree to is kicking the crap out of someone...
Umm....I realize the Islamic press has a tendency to describe everything from America as Zionist...but in this case...
You realize that the movie portrays the "last hope of humanity" as a city known as Zion, whose inhabitants are the result of a gradual migration and represent the forces of good, besieged by the forces of evil that surround them.
So yeah, I can see how it could be viewed as promoting Zionist beliefs.
Perhaps you have not heard the national anthem(U.S.) lately? "One nation, under god" was added by the dominant religion in the 40's. The founders tried to insert some distinct seperation of church and state, but when 70% of the population is indoctrinated by one religion from an early age, what hope is there for impartiality?
You know, I'm fairly out there on the cynical limb right now, but I don't think this is true. They might want to ban something that affected national security -- say, detailed classified info on Secret Service procedures -- but they wouldn't try to stop a pro-terrorist message. For now, at least, free speech is respected.
Which is irrelevant, of course, because Media, Inc. would never dream of inconveniencing its masters with such a film. It would never get made because the sheep would bleat too loudly. The American public, informed or not, would likely avoid such a movie; its prospects for profit would be small; and Hollywood would not back that horse.
Which raises the question (a la Matrix): What good is freedom of speech, if no one is saying anything?
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
I think the real reason they have banned it is that the city of free people in the film is called "Zion"! This also caused problems with the first Matrix film. The film makers have really shot themselves in the foot with that one!
I see your point, and to some extent I agree -- however, our hold on free speech is becoming increasingly tenuous. After having seen first-hand websites with vaguely anti-american, pro-terrorism sentiments be shut down under the PATRIOT act and associated "homeland defense" laws, I'm having an increasingly difficult time trusting the US government to "respect" the average citizen's right to free speech.
And here's another question for you:
Does the fact that we can say anything mean that we should say everything? I've noticed a certain "anything that can be said, should be said" mentality in a lot of my fellow Ameicans, and I wonder how valid it is. Thoughts?
My opinion at this moment, though it tends to waver, is that maybe it's a good thing terrorism-supporting movies aren't in vogue. Neither are movies cataloguing the mating habits of the turnip family. For speech to be useful, doesn't it need to have an audience?
Anyway... my rambling is done... my karma remains neutral...
There's no such rating as 'restricted', unless you meant R18.
:-)
:-)
Indeed
However both The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded were passed 15.
And that's why there is no "motherfucker" in the scene where Trinity is supposed to say "Dodge this, motherfucker!"; contrary to the script, she just says "dodge this!"
And then again, shooting someone in the head is acceptable; you just cannot call him "motherfucker" while doing this. Am I the only person who considers it a little bit weird?
The word "Zion" made me uncomfortable. It seemed a little progaganda-ish, nothing to do with the plot, just using the word so much, drilling it into your head, just the psychology of using the word so much. It's such an overloaded word.
I'm a rabid Isreal-backer, supported the war, and am more than happy to accomodate all Muslims who want to be martyred, but really, the concept of a state founded on a religion is really bullshit.
This breaks down somewhat with regards to the TV and radio, as they're publicly regulated, and the Republicans have tried to do the same thing with the Internet, but the Courts have been very clear: the First Amendment does not allow the kind of government censorship that is widespread almost everywhere else.
And you won't land in jail in the US for denying the Holocaust in an attempt to whitewash the Nazis: you're thinking of Europe and Canada, where they don't quite get the whole freedom of speech thing.
Sadly, similar attitudes exist among US leaders; Here is a quote from Bush: The only thing that is holding back people like Bush is a strong legal tradition of separation of church and state. But give people like Bush, Ashcroft, and their fascist pseudo-Christian core constituency a bit more time, and they will change that.
This is why p2p networks are so important, to keep governments from censoring media, and help keep the flow of information going.
That's what I thought, but if you listen closely you'll hear the other neo's say stuff like "I'm the third?" When Neo's saying "I'm the sixth?"
Though I'm still more inclined to agree with your choice b. Simply because there aren't only 5 other Neos on the screen.
Apparently, in order to get Egyptian commentators to argue in favor of freedom of expression, you have to broadcast a blatantly antisemitic miniseries, complete with Jews plotting world domination with the old Russian "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" forgery.
Well, it's good to know they have some standards.
Pathetic freaks.
The most advanced civilization that ruled the earth you stupid ignorant son of a bitch, we built the great pyramids that survived for thousands of years that you cant even replicate today, we controlled gravity, and we were so advanced in medicine that we had a doctor for the left eye and a doctor for the right eye go figure that out you, we taught the world how to farm, we are the essence of civilization and a never ending legacy.
So do yourself a favor and creep back under the rock you came from.
This is usual, movies are banned all the time, and the next week/month they are un-banned. Most of the times it's a marketing trick.
I once went into a movie here in greece called "naked lunch" by Cronenberg, it was on 1-2 theaters, and the theater I went had only 5-10 viewers. A policeman came 10 minutes before the end and stoped the movie! He said it was banned because of showing drugs, and of course the next week it was in the theaters again and the theaters were full!
That reminds me of a pic I saw on rotten.com (no, I don't spend my free time there). Basically, it was a pic of a guy who was half-eaten by wild dogs. He was naked from the waist down. I later ran in to that same pic somewhere else, and it was otherwise identical, except someone had cencored the guys penis from the pic (that was clearly visible in the first pic). So, it was OK to show half-eaten guy (a REALLY disturbing pic), but it was NOT OK to show that guys penis.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
' Just try and respect the fact that others may find it harmfull for there own religion/politics, as we might think the same way about theirs.'
the other conclusion is that the governmebts should not have been banning movies that present uncomfortable views on 9/11
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... and obvious, that there is much to be learned by the Western/American {there is no difference any more} constituency of /., about the ways of the world.
... even 'spiritual inspiration for living' from this media rather than ... say ... other media such as the Koran or The Bible.
Honestly, I was shocked to see so many posts along the line of "Egypt sucks, what a lame country, how weak"...
Matrix is widely regarded as an allegorical story, pitched in modern technological terms, regarding the lost races of Zion and the Jewish struggle for freedom. If you don't know that Zion is not just a place in a ass-kick movie with 3D effects, then I suggest you put google to use and learn just *WHY* the name "Zion" has so much stigma associated with it, and why many firmly believe that the Zionist movement is a destructive one for the human race as a whole.
Egypt is a very, very, very religiously fervent land. In Egypt, religion is actually more important to the general populace than the ability to be sitting on your ass in a dark theatre like a vegetable, being placated by wonderous 'miracles' of technology, being delivered a sermon on modern living by the modern Western priesthood (Hollywood).
For many people in Egypt, religion is a way of life, not just something you buy a ticket for on the weekends.
Americans think that "The Matrix" is just entertainment, and to their culture, an integrated part of the entire experience of being "Free".
Actually, from an objective view, Hollywood *is* the American Religion in that many modern Americans formulate their personal views, moral conviction, and yes
There is little difference between the Matrix-nerd waxing philosophical about 'the meaning of a film called Matrix' and a devout Muslim who holds a firm belief in the wisdom of Allah.
Really, very little difference whatsoever - both are using cultural mechanisms to bring some bearing of significance to their lives.
If the Egyptian government, in deciding not to allow this film to play among its populace, is doing so in order to protect its culture from strife - and nobody knows better than the Egyptians how cultural memes can cause strife - then in so doing it is no different than the US Government, deciding that 'digital rights' should be enforced and rigorously protected in order to safeguard its economy.
Remember this:
Just because Egyptians do not worship your gods, does not make them worthy of ridicule.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
The capital of the survivors in the Matrix is called "Zion" - the name of the mythical Jewish homeland. Egypt has been at war with Israel not too long ago, and there is huge resentment towards Israel because of the occupation of Palestine.
It would be the same if there was a major movie released in America where the hero's name just happened to be 'Osama Bin Laden' (not that I'm drawing any significants comparison). Of course there would be uproar, and the movie would not be shown by most theatres regardless of it's artistic quality.
The Zionist's idea has suffered through ages, and the fact of its survival scares the hell out of anyone who hasn't gone through this generations of unceasing trials.
To know we have fears, and to come face to face with it - to learn what the Zionists has learned, could be beneficial.
Egypt's fear will be it's own undoing.
I treasure irreverence, even when taken to extremes, because among the outrage there lies those wonderful kernels of curiosity that the otherwise closed-minded might not have otherwise had the mental fortitude to face without having the issue thrown in their faces. The conclusion that they come to following such consideration isn't so important as how they came to that conclusion. I would much prefer it to yet another generation who maintain their most basic beliefs only because someone such as their mommies and daddies told them that was how things were and that was that.
To use that example of movies that support terrorism (a bit broad lumping together all terrorists as being the same animal, as I don't see Islamic Jihad finding too much common ground with the IRA, so feel free to interpret "terrorism" as a particular group for clarity), I think that it would be refreshing to truly get to know and understand the perspective of those who would commit such heinous acts. We find it far too easy to have certain groups of people declared as "evil" and then read about them being summarily executed in foreign lands.
Admittedly, the predominant attitude of "kill them all, now" would probably continue to dominate and perhaps even be accentuated after a better understanding is reached, but at least these death sentences would be delivered from a more informed perspective than that of blind fear. We might even be able to develop solutions that get at the root of the problem rather than simply treating the symptoms.
As for the usefulness of speech, that is a stripe of a totally different color but one that is fairly self-regulating, since those who won't find it useful, such as those of us not in the turnip trade to reference your example, simply won't bother with it. Of course, that does make me wonder why these zealots are so deathly afraid of materials that make their people think, since they would likely walk away bored or find it to be highly comedic if they were so confident in their beliefs. But then I don't proclaim to understand the incredibly xenophobic world of those sort of religions, so I may simply be missing something incredibly obvious to those of you who do.
Shawn
Because you gotta bitch
And what if there are few versions of the truth? Which one out of those stands on its own?
Truth != One
"we all know that Descarte's duality is bogus, right?"
Of course, at this point we all start mentioning the fact that Popper, when arguing against the "two worlds" theory called his third world the Neosphere, and start running around saying its all planned from the start.
See how easy it is to read things into stuff?
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up. Blowing the whole place up would lead to the death of everyone in the matrix, and coupled with the destruction of Zion would lead to the extinction of the human race.
Of course his car-flipping fireball scene means that he is willing to break a few eggs to make an omlett.
you know, one person who does hate all humanity, the matrix and all machines is Smith. What would happen if he infected everybody in the matrix, and then decided to commit mass suicide?
All the machines would be starved back to a "leve of existence we are prepared to accept" which must surely suck, and the humans would be left with however many people are alive in zion after the sentinels are through with them.
Smith hasn't happened before (Smith 1:"Everything is exactly like last time..." Smith 2: "Not exactly...") and it would be a typical W bros thing to do to have neo fight smith on behalf of the machines.
Poor Smith. He's the only new form of life on the planet in 2100 years. You'd think that he'd deserve some time in the sun.
Speaking of which, why haven't the machines used their technology to construct some kind of space elevator to a geosynchronous solar satellite thing yet? Isaac Asimov and Arthur C Clarke thought that that would be a great way to get free power, and it's certainly smarter than their current plan of
1) liquifying the massive amount of human flesh we saw in The Second Renaisannce into human goo.
2) resurrect just a small portion of humans to efficiently convert the goo into bioelectricity and heat
3) get all stroppy when some of the people decide that being fed their dead ancestors intraveniously sucks and that they want to wake up.
I mean, c'mon machines! fossil fuels and hubris sent humans to the stone age at least twice! don't make the same mistake of thinking that there'll always be more oil/human goo twice!
The second film is Neo's quest for a purpose. On the basis of the Q&A between Neo and The Architect, Neo's purpose seems to be that he is the reboot switch for the Matrix.
He destroys the Source and the Sentinels waste Zion, with the exception of the 23 people he chooses to perpetuate the species. And the whole thing starts over.
Presumably Revolutions will show Neo to be the worm that turned, so to speak...
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography
Part of this control manefests itself by giving the One a strong connection to humanity. In Neo's case, it was more specific - to one person, Trinity. Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up.
The impression I got was that this was the first time that the One had been in love, hence the reason why he didnt take either of the choices presented to him, and he made his own path.....
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
What the government is really saying is that Egyptians are so inately barbaric and prone to violence that they can't be exposed to things that are common in the rest of the world.
Mod me flamebait, but it's true.
When this same government threw many homosexuals in prison, many human rights groups complained. The government replied that homosexuals have no rights, so we can't be violating their human rights...
Other facts:
Egypt gets more aid from the US than Israel does.
Clinton not only gave hundreds of M1A1 battle tanks (the top of the line US tank) to Egypt, he gave them a factory to make more.
Precisely! The coolest part of the movie relates to what you were saying.
Neo "Something feels different"
Then he precedes to stop the sentinels in "real life".
Hmmm...interesting, isn't it? Those in the matrix have a "choice", but choice is "merely an illusion between those who have power and those who do not". Zion is part of the Matrix! Picture the "Matrix" as been a little "for loop" inside of a bigger matrix.
I can't wait for Novemember.
PHd's don't mean anything, if you get them in a useless subject.
As a slight aside, Neo is always the "One" because when he talks to the architect one of the monitors says "There were three before me!" or something to that effect.
--Joey
That... or how the hell he stopped the squidies when he was OUT of the Matrix (or so we thought)
Your observation they are still inside the Matrix is correct, backed up by several other events in the movie. Some of them are really subtle and I cannot recall. One is not so subtle and quite memorable:
The spoon bender in the first movie insisted "there is no spoon". Why is there no spoon? Because they are in the Matrix. The spoon becomes a symbol at this point for what does not exist as a result of where they are. The boy gives Neo another spoon as he's leaving Zion, but he does not change his message. He simply gives him the spoon. The message is unchanged: "there is no spoon", ergo, you're still inside the Matrix.
I think most people will agree, given that and the Sentinal scene in the end where Neo loses consciousness, that people in Zion are still inside the Matrix. Neo, having mastered control over Matrix reality, is "beginning to believe" here as well. How he might have realized this, I do not have any theory on. This concept will be crutial later on because I think it will apply to Agent Smith as well.
What's really going to bake your noodle is why do the machines need to destroy Zion with a conventional attack? They literally allow Zion to be created, fight with it for a while, then eventually send a massive army to wipe it out. If the machines controlled the Matrix, why not just "delete" Zion?
The answer? I believe that both the machines AND humans are trapped inside of a Matrix. Both of them are enslaved!
Think about what the Oracle said to Neo when they were talking about how he could trust her. Neo asks, "why are you helping us?" She replies, "I'm interested in one thing Neo, the future. And I know, the only way to get there is together."
From this I conclude that while there are some humans that realize their reality is fake, there are some programs that realize the same thing. Somehow there needs to be a collaboration between the two if they are somehow to free themselves.
There's some support for this in the teaser trailer.
You see an army of Agent Smiths that appear to be standing in the surface desert, with hover craft surrounding them. If Smith is merely a Matrix construct, how can he exist in the "real world"?
There is a scene with Neo and Smith fighting where they hit each other and both fly back. Amidst this, a shot is inserted of Morpheus stating with much shock and disbelief: "he fights for us!?"
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Have you seen the Animatrix DVD ? There is one part there, where the humans try to give a machine a chance to chose for itself, by introducing it into the matrix, to support the humans. *That* concept is what will play a major role in the 3rd part. Neo is a machine that has chosen to fight for humans. I plan to pull up this comment after seeing the revolutions :) Let it be here safe till then.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
In the living quarters area of Zion all of the area around the door frames are painted blood red. This struck me as an obvious reference to the passover. The residents of Zion are waiting to be delivered from the machines and have marked their doors. So if residents of Zion == Jews escaping Eqypt, then the machines == Egyptians.
One can see how this film got banned in Egypt if the force that keeps nearly all of humanity enslaved is equated with their country. Not the most mature attitude, but you can see how this would happen.
Interestingly, in the Animatrix, there are scenes straight out of the Ten Commandments in which the machines are depicted as the Jewish slaves, building pyramids, and the humans as the Egyptian slave drivers. I wonder if the Animatrix is banned as well.
Lasers Controlled Games!
I only wish you were kidding. Let us always remember that we need to protect everyone from everyone else by constantly monitoring our speech and language. By your logic, if a circus clown had killed my father and you started talking about what a great time you and your kids had at Ringling Bros the other night, you're just being stupid and insensitive. Give it a rest. The film-makers owe no obligation to anyone but themselves to use the language and nomenclature that they find creatively appropriate. 'Stupid and insensitive' is not only narrow-minded and uninformed, it is worse, an ad hominem attack that has no reasonable basis. (And if you have any doubts regarding the validity of my criticism, consider how uninformed I must be about whether you truly are narrow-minded and uninformed).
I personally would love to see any movie involving evil Southern baptists. It is a sad state of affairs that there aren't more of them as I know many Southern Baptists quite well and I hate to say it but... they are in fact evil. I don't find and value in your analogy, at least, I didn't find anything particularly offensive with the concept.
Egypt is a better society than much of the Middle East.
I'm not quite sure how you make this value judgment. What is your conception of 'society' and do you honestly think that one country alones trumps the entire collective character of all the others. Your comment needs a fair amount of elaboration if you want to be taken seriously.
That's what I have to say about religious fanatics who suppress information simply because it doesn't fit their ideals.
:)
I'm religious myself, but I don't understand how someone can make an informed choice about what they want to believe in without knowing all of the options. I guess some would consider my beliefs to be "impure" because I do not constrain myself to one strict doctrine, but I consider myself to be better off because of it. (Interestingly enough, my view of "God" isn't bothered by the idea of the universe being a simulation. I think it's interesting!)
On the other hand, I can see the point in limiting the exposure of minors to sexual and violent material, primarily violence, because there's really nothing wrong with sex (unless it's unconsentingly violent...).
I do understand why religious people want to suppress exposure to other religions. It's because they're afraid that people will choose one of the alternatives. Mostly because they know their beliefs won't stand up to objective scrutiny.
The remainder in that unbalanced equation leads to the creation of the One.
There's a problem with the matrix. Not everyone is accepting their programming. If left in the matrix, these few will grow and eventually the matrix will crash.
The machines use Zion to weed out those who don't accept the programming. Zion, in effect, is keeping the matrix from crashing.
It is the job of the one to simply experience humanity from the side of those who live in Zion. He then takes this experience back into the source and it is combined with the existing code of the matrix in an attempt to make the matrix more suited to humanity. The idea is that eventually you're going to refine the code enough that anyone and everyone accepts the matrix and Zion is no longer needed.
This is a lot like genetic programming.
Part of this control manefests itself by giving the One a strong connection to humanity. In Neo's case, it was more specific - to one person, Trinity.
This is not neccessarily intended. If you listen to the Architect's speech the love for humanity is like error handling code in a program. If the One shows up at the source and doesn't care about humanity then it's probable he won't want to save humanity or Zion and will just head back into the matrix. That would lead to all of humanity to become extinct and life for the machines becomes bad.
Neo's programming to love humanity manifests himself in the love of a single person. Trinity. This is different from previous ones who loved humanity in general. This difference in love is important because that allows Neo to make the choice to go back into the Matrix rather than into the source. Neo has basically doomed humanity but his love for Trinity perhaps does not let him realize that. Thus the whole bit at the end where the architect is mentioning that Neo's judgement is being blurred.
Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up. Blowing the whole place up would lead to the death of everyone in the matrix, and coupled with the destruction of Zion would lead to the extinction of the human race.
Wrong. That's exactly what happens. Neo chooses door #2 and goes back into the matrix. That will lead to the end of the matrix as once Zion is destroyed by the machines, there will be a pile-up of those who don't accept the matrix living in the matrix. This will eventually lead to the matrix crashing. Thus, humanity dies.
Neo had two choices before him. He took one of the two. The one he took was to return to the matrix.
I assume that there will be another form of control that would make Neo 'want' to do it.
Neo's love for humanity, that which is built-into all Ones, is what is suppose to make him do it. That's the control. But Trinity ufcks the whole situation up and allows Neo to ignore that built-in control.
As an example; the UK government is considering an unhealthy food tax. [...] it is an example of the state forcing its view of good and bad on a population
I'd like to discuss this one with you.
Why should the taxpayers that take care of their bodies be subsidizing the health care of people who engage in unhealthy practices (smoking, alcohol, junk food, etc.)?
It's like a gas tax. People who use the most gas, and therefore use the roads the most, are the ones paying the most to repair them. Similarly, people who draw the most from public healthcare should also be paying more for their self-destructing lifestyles.
which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in
How can a person believe in all three religions?
I mean, a religion addresses every issue, even if it is, "We can't understand that now, only an infinite [G/g]od can" or some type of metaphysical "such a question is meaningless since there is no reality blah blah blah".
But in order to have three religions there has to be some distinction, and that distinction would lie in how these issues are addressed. And a person can't believe in two or more distinct/separate "answers" to the same issue since one would negate the other.
" Finally we get something that, while possibly on the level of freshman philosophy (possibly; I don't agree)"
Granted the philosophy is decidedly Cartesian and is very simplified to fit the venue, however, the numberous religious and historical references that exist in Matrix: Reloaded should not be overlooked.
Consider the Meruvingian: a French-speaking, french culture loving "program" named after the Ruling family in France/Central Europe during the Dark ages ~500 AD or so. Consider that this family claimed to trace its bloodline directly to the child of Mary Magdalane and Jesus Christ. Due to this somewhat "blasphemous" claim, the family was betrayed by the Roman Catholic Church and diposed in favor of Charlemagne and his family (read "betrayed", as humanity arguably was by its machines). Further, their current decendants are believed to be the fabled "Illuminati" and control groups such as the Freemasons. THE Meruvingian is a reference to the eventual heir of their family's bloodline who is storied to rule over a united Europe as a sort of "chosen one" or "savior".
Back to the Matrix...I submit that the Meruvingian was the FIRST "one", just as Neo is now the 6th. Also, his wife Persephone is what seems a possible eventuallity for Trinity.
So maybe the philosophy is a bit heavy-handed, but if you dig a little deeper you'll find some of the more obscure references in the movie hold a lot of "more than Freshman college level" ideas for pondering.
It could be that people are really used for their processing power, Neo's day job was writting code, it makes more sense than as a power source.
Onward to the Aether Sphere!
** spoilers ahead **
The impression that I got was that each screen represented one possible way that Neo could develop and progress. Remember, he's part of the Matrix, fulfilling a prophecy, exhibiting "supernatural" abilities. He's a program, as we've been told by the Architect, with a pre-determined outcome. Prophecies *are* foretold, after all.
Each screen started out with Neo at birth and began to progress through all the various different possibilities that would exist in his life. Each possibility was determined by the choices that he made along each life. We're told, tho, that the free-will within the Matrix is an illusion. That it's programmed in. Each person might be making their own decisions, but those decisions are still within the boundaries and constraints of the system that they are in.
Further proof that the outcome is predetermined is seen when each of his "lives" lead up to the meeting with the Architect and fall into sync.
It never mattered which pill Neo took. The outcome would have been the same.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
Actually, the architect said that Neo wouldn't understand everything that he said, so it's natural, and almost required, that we don't understand it all either. It's not just straight words, there is more, no one fully understands it yet, but that's the point.
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I dont understand how people can not 'get' the scene with the architect. Perhaps you are attempting to read into it too much? Here's a hint: he says everything straightforward.
Yes and no. The Architect is Yaldaboath, the blind god of Gnosticism who believes he he created the universe for his purposes, when all he created was the deception we see around us. He is opposed by Sophia, wisdom. Read some Phillip K. Dick and *The Nag Hammadi Codices* is you want to understand what the Architect is doing.
My guess is that the Oracle has a plan for Neo that is outside the scope of the Matrix's purpose for the One.
Probably too late for this to get noticed (7 hours is an eternity in slashdot time), but here goes: Regardless of what the official reason for the ban is (religion, etc.), the real reason is the constant and sympathetic reference to 'Zion' in the movie. In the real world, 'Zion' refers either to the "Jewish people" or "the Jewish homeland that is symbolic of Judaism or of Jewish national aspiration" [Merriam-Webster] (i.e., Israel in modern times). The (very real, 100+ year old) ideology of 'Zionism' didn't get that name for nothing. So this has little to do with pissing off fundamentalists or offending religious sensibilities, and a lot to do with pissing off the general population of Egypt, who are already susceptible to conspiracy theories of Jews controlling Hollywood (and the White House). As evidence of my explanation, I'd like to point out that Speilberg's excellent _Schindler's List_ was also banned in Egypt, ostensibly on the grounds that 'editing out the sex scenes would endanger the artistic integrity of the movie', or some such bull, when of course the real reason was the sympathetic portrayal of Jews. Finally, I'd like to point out that the movie will probably be widely available in VCD/DivX format, and will be watched by many on computer screens in Egypt. The government doesn't really bother enforcing censorship at that level, because all they want is to have *their* hands clean of officially permitting the showing of a 'pro-Israel' movie.
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
It almost seems to me that a post a few back was right--that Islam is going through the same cycles as Christianity, we just have a 600-year head start.
Repeat 2 and 3 ad infinitum. Hence, the Christian world is setting up for another dogmatic, superstitious, fundamentalist dark age.
I'm going to go research some eastern religions (shinto, buddhism, hinduism) and see if they do the same thing. Anyone know?
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
Unfortunately, sooner or later someone comes along who WILL question the "real" world. That person is "the Anomoly". The computer's answer: wipe out Zion, and keep the Anomoly busy re-creating a new Zion. Indeed, there is some implication that the machines designed Neo to fill this role. (Note how many abilities he has in common with the Agents.)
What is happening this time is neo is an anomolous anomoly. He doesn't go with the plan, and takes the emotional "save the princess" option instead of the logical "save humanity" option.
The machines of course are very concerned. If the anomoly rejects the programming they have so carefully crafted they have no idea how everything will turn out. To a mathematical equation, chaos is the end of the system. With Neo free to do what he will, flouting the rules, people who ordinarily wouldn't question the matrix are.
They have a mess, and it's going to end badly. They seem to have a "shotgun and canned goods" backup plan, but the Architect didn't seem to thrilled by the prospect.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Well, this is the way I see it:
(The mandatory ***** SPOILER ALERT! *****)
- The first Matrix was created perfect, but the human nature would refuse to accept it.
- Subsequentialy, deliberate flaws were introduced in the Matrix, to make it more "humanly gullable".
- These flaws side effect was that some humans were able to perceive the fake reality they were living in.
Now here is the tricky part!
- Perceiving it, they were fed with the idea that they could escape from it, "awakening". My notion is that Zion and the ones living there are still in the Matrix, in a sort of "garbage collector" that gathers the ones that perceive the flaws. I believe that, at some time, the Architect mentions that the ones "escaping" from the Matrix would evolve exponentialy.
- Neo's part, instigated by the Oracle, who acts like a Matrix system process that monitors the amount of "anomalies", is to act as an "escape valve", that triggers when the anomalies reach a given critical mass, letting the Matrix know that it's time for a "reboot", eliminating the existing anomalies and starting all over again. This is the weekness of this Matrix model.
- What is also happening (I believe), is that, despite this "reboot" process, the cleanup is not being total, and Neo is being able to retain knowledge between cycles. This explains the alusion to previous "flawed" Neo's.
All of this explains one of the points I believe is crucial, the usage of Neo's powers in Zion, towards the end of the flick. I believe he is still in the Matrix!
Also, I believe that the Matrix cycles will como to a stop, and the Matrix exposed, when Neo finaly becomes aware that the reality he believe is "real" (Zion) is still a lie and that he is still in the Matrix, which seams is starting to happen.
Hope somebody follows along my line of thought!
I wish I had posted sooner, my observations seem a little under-represented.
I find great irony in Egypt being the one to ban The Matrix Reloaded. Many of you are aware of Gnostic themes in the Matrix, what some may not know is that it appears that stories of the Egyptian godman Dionysus factored heavily into Gnosticism.
After Alexander the Great's successes, he decided to create the greatest city in the world as Alexandria in Egypt. After his death, Ptolemy was determined to also make Alexandria the intellectual capital of the world. The Library of Alexandria contained, by some accounts, the sum of the world's knowledge at that point. It held important works by the greek mathematicians; notably the Pythagorean Brotherhood, Diophantus' Arithmetica and Euclid's Elements. It also held many early philosophic and gnostic works.
Of course, first Julius Caeser, then Christians and finally Muslims took turns at destroying the Library, and with it probably nearly a thousand years worth of Math. All in time, coincidentally, for the Dark Ages.
Yeah pretty boring stuff. I'd rather see Carrie Anne Moss in Latex, huh. Regardless of why you like the Matrix, or what you believe, when seen through a historical context, there is irony to this story.
Dude, we're all proud of you for having just finished reading 'The Da Vinci Code' (a fabulous book), but don't post all this as though it came out of your head. This is practically verbatim from the expository sections of the book.
Evidence supporting this theory:
The Oracle predicts events that happen both inside and outside the Matrix
Trinity's kiss in the real world restores Neo's life in the Matrix.
Agent Smith travels into a human outside of the Matrix.
Neo can control machines outside of the Matrix.
Your projected "residual body image" is actually what you look like. Consider that Neo when he wakes in Zion/Surface, looks the same as in the Matrix. How can he know what he looks like, if, in fact he has never seen his own body.
And the most telling of all, which was for me very difficult to accept in the first movie - if you die in the matrix, you die in the real world as well. You don't die if you die in a dream. Nor do you start bleeding internally if you get hit in a simulation.
It's not that Zion is a higher level simulation or a recursion. Zion/Surface and the Matrix are both the same simulation.
It is anyone's guess what the purpose of the simulation is. Popular theories are that humans are used for brain power, etc...
My belief is that the simulation is intended to produce an effect. Many concurrent simulations are running. The architect has been attempting to force Neo to express the choice between logic and emotion in the most clear cut way possible - the two doors. In all other cases, this has been the end of the simulation, as logic has prevailed.
Why? If Neo was supposed to return to the Source, why offer a second door. No architect would be that silly - this is like playing with matches.
This could provide him with a test to determine if his program (Neo) has developed the capacity for emotion (and possibly, a test for consciousness). Perhaps he is trying to meld AI with an element of humanity to create a new sentient life form.
Perhaps emotion is the bug he is trying to eliminate - his AI programs are slowly developing emotional responses, and he uses Neo as a test subject for the penultimate expression of the bug, so he can find a way to eliminate it.
Perhaps Neo is living in a self-defined delusion. The architect exists to allow him to restart his simulation as he desires, and he is the One - in another sense. The only living being in the simulation. The reboot cycles are refinements of his simulation until it has been adjusted to the point that he desires to return to it.
Perhaps the Architect is seeking a way to override logic, using emotion as a control. This emotional control, and his study of the mechanisms of it, may be useful to him outside of the simulation, as a form of mind control.
The screens have the images of the previous Ones, repeated. When zooming into the center, you can clearly hear them saying things like "There were four before me" and "There were none before me." They all talk at the same time, so listen carefully, but it's there.
"Sufferin' succotash."
> the church had enough fear of God to look into each case
> individually. Mass execution of men by formula is an
> abomination reserved exclusively for the 20th century.
Just where do you think the phrase: "Kill 'em all, and let god sort it out." came from?
The original quote was actually in French (oops... freedom) and translates closer to: "Kill them all. God will know his own."
It was during the Albigensian crusade from 1209-1255 in Catharic France. In summer of 1209, the crusaders attacked the city of Beziers, thought to hold a small enclave of Cathars (about 200 or so). The crusaders eventually sacked the city, taking the populace captive. Lacking any positive way to sort the Cathars out from the loyal Catholics, the soldiers asked the Papal Legate and head of the Cistercian monks, Abbot Arnaud-Amaury, for advice. It was Arnaud-Amaury who gave the infamous order: "Kill them all. God will know his own.".
And thus, the population of the city of Beziers, numbering 20,000 or so, was put to the sword, so as to execute the 200 heretics thought to be hiding amongst them.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
I realize I am posting this way too late for anyone to actually read it, butâ¦
I lived in Egypt for four years. The Film Review Board there is notoriously fickle. Some things get through that you cannot believe, others are banned for no apparent reason.
The original Matrix was a big hit in the Cairo cinemas. I was stunned that they let this deeply subversive film in the country. The plot of the movie is that your life is a lie; a simulacrum that fiendish authority figures (represented by security men in dark suits, no less) are force-feeding you so that you will docilely give them the power they need to survive. But if you know the truth, it is possible to resist, and perhaps even defeat the established authority. The very paranoid Egyptian government allowed thousands of young Egyptians to get this message at their local cinema.
On the other hand, they cut all the references to âoeZion.â
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Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
REVENGE
More specifically, Neo, through defeating and inadverting freeing Smith, took away his "purpose". He gives a quick speech about this to Neo before attempting to gang rape him. Smith is trying to return the favor, that is, he is attempting to make Neo irrelevant. Either he will 1) kill him, which was his original purpose he still holds on to, or 2) destroy the Matrix by converting all of its inhabitants into him, leaving Neo no one to free.
He's taking this frustration that comes with his new freedom and directing it back on his liberator. How pathetic: he so desperately wanted out of the Matrix, and now that he's free he sees no other option but to remain there and make Neo suffer even moreso.
Poor thing. He's not coping very well without dogma, is he? And I like Smith...
(well, I like Hugo Weaving, I think he's the best cast member).
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Everything you say is correct, but I still don't see how it explains why the "anomaly" would cause "fluctuations" in "even the most simplistic equations". I mean, everything you say just comes down to "the problem is choice", as Neo said. But, while this is a good plot device, it's not intuitively plausible. What kind of special issues does choice raise? Sure, humans are unpredictable, but what exactly are the nature of the "fluctuations" that the humans are able to induce? Is that how Neo and friends are able to make the Matrix conform to their wills? It's not obvious why a system that doesn't allow this to happen would necessarily be unacceptable to humans.
Understand that I'm not saying that the movie should have explained this, both because it would have had to go into a lot of depth to fully satisfy me (taking away screen time and likely boring the rest of the audience) and because until we see the third movie, we won't really know what to make of all this anyway. And I wouldn't point out things like this in Star Wars or whatever at all. It's only because the Matrix series seems to aspire to "hard" sci-fi status that I think these kinds of criticisms are even relevant.
I metamoderate all Redundant and Offtopic moderations as Unfair.
Actually, my favorite plot theories (although admittedly also the least likely to be presented as fact in Revolutions) make the whole battery thing not be true, for whatever reason. For example: the machines are actually serving man, just in a really complicated way; or the machines are keeping them around as museum pieces or pets of a sort. (The most common theory that would have the humans-as-batteries thing not be true, of course, are the Zion-is-another-Matrix theories, but while I think Reloaded was deliberately intended to give some fuel to those theories, I also think it's extremely unlikely that they will be presented as fact in Revolutions.)
Heh, I make that typo all the time too, although I usually catch it.
Well, I was able to understand what he was saying, but it sounded... imprecise. As Brendan Byrd said elsewhere in this thread, the Architect was generally extremely careful in word choice, which makes a metaphorical usage of "design" sound odd.
I metamoderate all Redundant and Offtopic moderations as Unfair.
My guess is that the Oracle has a plan for Neo that is outside the scope of the Matrix's purpose for the One.
That's right people, IMHO it is all about the ORACLE. All of this other crap is hokey. She is the one that set all of this up. She is the one that sees things for what they are... and after all... SHE IS THE ONE THAT WAS DESIGNED AS THE HUMAN ADVOCATE, the one that was sent to "find a permanent solution to all of this." And one of the things that the movie harps on is effect and purpose. Well, we know what she was designed for. TO BE OUR OVERMOTHER. Well, she is fulfilling her purpose. She loves her kids and wants the best for them... and that ain't the Matrix.
As she has said before, "We all got to get along, Kiddo. And we all have a purpose." She knows human nature better than we do. She knows what is best, she just has to push her "children" to do what is best and get out of a bad situation. She goads you to do it. She even tells you that she is telling you what you need to hear. She laughs about it. Then offers you something you cannot resist like cookies or candy. To make you happy. She wants all her kids to be happy. Just like every mother. But she is behind it all.
The second theme of the Matrix movies is that no one can tell you your purpose no matter how many roadblocks they put up, real or not. You have a purpose and it will come out. Mom just shows you the door.
The Oracle is setting up a system that both machines and humans can get along together in. She is the one that set up Zion long ago much to the chagrin of her "ex-husband" the Architecht. She is the one that goads them along. She is the one that carries on caring for people while the system beats them down. That is her job. And her job is to find a solution. She found it. The "best solution" is not the Matrix. It has something to do with Neo's instant evolution at the end of the movie. That was a way for people to control them in the real world. Neo just made an evolution. OR SAY, "revolutions."
My guess is that it has something to do with humans and AIs getting on equal ground with each other, creating a new symbiotic relationship instead of parasitic. But then again, that is my idea.
Just keep in mind that it was the Oracle that is a machine that thinks like a human, and that Neo is a human that thinks like a machine. They are different sides of the same coin. And that is why she uses him to effect change.
See why she likes him?
"Now have some candy...
I didn't intend to say that there is a direct link between poverty and terrorism. That is not what we're seeing. Most of the poor population is very passive, sometimes that's good, because most of the population don't want a war, they're not going to kill anybody, and sometimes it is bad, as it is very hard to have a popular uprising against dictators.
What poverty does create, is a general sentiment that someone else is responsible for your misery, a sentiment that can then be exploited. The next problem is that that allthough the vast majority would never resort to terrorism, a very small minority would, and those who think they have the resources to "do something" will "do something". Under the wrong circumstances, this something will be terrorism.
If malaysians were all big, fat and had no percieved enemies, the prime minister would not be listened to, would he?
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