Slashdot Mirror
Anti-Patriot Act Movement Expands
MFS! writes "Mount Shasta, California has become the latest city where the USA PATRIOT act is creating a controversy. This story at the Record-Searchlight describes petitioning by a local citizens' rights committee to order police to defy the PATRIOT act. To date, 3 states and 130 cities have passed legislation forbidding local authorities from cooperating with federal PATRIOT requests, not to mention the numerous businesses who are taking pains to hamper the Act's coverage."
Ok, so three states have passed anti-PA legislation?
What about California's (and others) medical pot legislations? Do the federal drug agents care when they storm into these people's "gardens" and prosecute them to the full extent of FEDERAL law?
Hell, do the Federal agents care when they destroy the Native American's HEMP fields (which were allowed under a law in the late 1800s?)
NO.
State's rights (which should be more important) aren't shit. Remember that.
One word: standing. The Supreme Court only hear cases where the parties have standing. That means, some damage has to be done to you as a result of the Patriot Act. The Supreme Court does not test laws for constitutionality without a plaintiff who has standing.
Here's the trick though: if you fall victim to the Patriot Act, you may not have access to the judicial system. That means, you will never get a chance to challenge it in court.
This is considerably different from many other republican systems where the highest court can often test laws for constitutionality based on a single complaint of a citizen or a branch/agency of the government.
"Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
To date, 3 states and 130 cities have passed legislation forbidding local authorities from cooperating with federal PATRIOT requests, not to mention the numerous businesses who are taking pains to hamper the Act's coverage
How about mentioning some of the loudest critics- librarians. Most are madder than hell about the Patriot Act, and politicians are finding that going up against librarians(which are seen as by the public as incredibly smart, among other things) isn't very popular. From some of our youngest years, librarians have earned a place of respect as wise, intelligent, helpful, kind people.
Most libraries now display signs at checkout desks and computer workstations warning you they can be forced to turn over information about what you check out etc....and most also now destroy those records on a daily basis, paper or electronic.
And, as Peter Jennings pointed out with a smile on his face, your local library is a great place to sit down and read a copy of the Patriot Act. The librarians will be more than happy to assist.
Folks- libraries across the country are suffering from budget cutbacks just like everyone else. If you think it's awesome that librarians are on your side against the Patriot Act, might I suggest helping them back by volunteering? Think outside the (computer) box too- help reshelf books, read to kids in the children's library, etc...
Please help metamoderate.
Is a 10th Amendment movement. Too bad most states have sold out like whores for "federal" money.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Protecting us from terrorists is the mask on the face of the legislation, but many of us see that as too much of an invasion of privacy.
I hope that this anti-patriot stuff comes to Minneapolis too, if it hasn't already.
More than enough BS
How do you think the USA PATRIOT act got passed in the first place? Would YOU vote against something with a name like that? What would people think?
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Right down to the doublespeak name.
The Patriot Act is a symptom of a sick government
No. Greenland is not green, civil unrest is not civil, and spraying perfume on dogshit does not make it smell better.
Patriot Act is not and has never been for patriots of this country. It goes against what it means to be American.
Besides, it reads: Anti (Patriot Act), not (Anti-Patriot) Act.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
I'll answer this troll.
The answer is: The future. Why open the door for abuse so that a future government can come along, and abuse its citizenry at will?
Only those who want to abuse others like this would even suggest such a thing.
The US government is trying to spread fear about terroism in order to gain support for such coercive acts, and then tries to pass them under a very sugarcoated and propaganda-ish name - "patriot", when there is nothing patriotic about it.
When the government fears the people, its democracy.
When the people fear the government, its tyrrany.
"Some fight for law. Some fight for justice. What will you fight for? One day, you will see."
Two hundred years ago, revolutions were started over these things. Now the sad thing is, even by typing that sentence, I could be looked at by the authorities as subversive.
Good Grief. - Charles Brown
It is set to expire at midnight (0h00) January 1, 2006.
I have long had--perhaps undeservedly--a deep and abiding faith in the genius of the American people.
But you can expect a PR campaign unlike any seen since The Matrix Reloaded's when this date comes nigh. There will be strenuous efforts to illustrate to the American people "all the lives that have been saved" because of the Patriot Act's existence.
The only interesting question is who will be in power at that point? As it seems clear to me that _this_ (that is, who is *behind* the act) is the determining factor as to whether or not Republicans will support it.
There is NO way on God's good earth that if Gore had won '00 and the PATRIOT Act had been born under his tutelage that conservatives wouldn't have been shouting from sea to shining sea about the encroachment to privacy this act represents.
That was one of the first moments I understood the difference between conservative and Republican.
By a wide margin, I identify more readily with the former than the latter (and in fact it's sad to me to see folks [including conservative commentators], even folks such as Ashcroft, who *so* abhorred the encroachment on liberty such measures represented now turning heel and supporting the same--merely b/c they are the ones holding the purse strings & the power).
Will the American public be reluctant to be snow-jobbed by this inevitable PR campaign? Or will there be a linger of distrust--especially if WMDs are never found in Iraq? Will common sense prevail?
Stay tuned.
The phrase is "Love it or leave it," and it's one of the stupidest things a person can possibly say.
Yeah... There's a difference, though. In many countries, the laws are oppressive and can't really be changed without serious socio-political upheaval. In the United States (which is what our country is called, BTW... America is a set of two continents), laws CAN be changed for the good of the public with a little bit of effort. That might be another good point... we're not afraid to put in the effort because we don't fear getting "put down", a.k.a. killed, by our own governing officials for disagreeing with them. The fact that the mods gave you an "Insightful" rating, and will probably give me a "Troll" rating says a lot about the objectivity of many people here on /. these days.
-Xepherys
a.k.a
PV2 Williams, Jesse S.
HHD, Engr Bde, 38th ID
See, even withstanding the laws of the UCMJ, I'm not afraid of my government... if they are out there looking, they can look at me all they want.
This is different. There is no way Bush is sending troops to destroy the LA City Council, for example. And Patriot has provisions that require state and local cooperation. The feds can't bust down every door or make every arrest or interrogation. And uncooperative state and local cops will be worse than the feds doing it alone. I think this will weaken the Patriot act but I don't see this causing a similar crisis as 1832; I imagine the feds will be content to enforce the act weakly and the states and cities will not stand in the way of federal actions under the act that seem reasonable.
In short, it's a good idea, it's a kind of check and balance that a system like democracy is known for. When legislation is passed at a time of extreme fear and anger, cooler heads prevail later on and do something to cripple the legislation. I don't know how much effect these kinds of actions will have but I do find them encouraging.
Hitler's Reich Marshall Goering at Nuremberg Trials
I don't necessarily agree with that judicial set-up however. It allows for a crusading judiciary or petty suits tying up the system. (Can you imagine if corproations were able to challenge any law they wanted to? It would make the post-colonial Indian judicial system look like a model of efficiency.)
However, I think there should be a special provision in cases like this where the law itself takes any possible plantif to remove the law out of the regular judicial system by its very function.
PATRIOT is a scary, scary law.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
Germany is the only other system I'm familiar with in that regard. When a law passes parliament (Bundest and Bundesrat), there's usually two ways to get the Federal Constitutional Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) to rule on the law.
One way is to basically sue parliament for passing an unconstitutional law. Theoretically anybody can do this but it's usually some kind of interest group that will attempt this. Based on the merits of the case, the court will decide to hear it and make a ruling. The consequence, if the verdict is affirmative to the plaintiff's position, is usually that the law is nullified and parliament is instructed to pass a new one. This is what happened several times with the abortion law. It's important here to realize that the constitutional court does not usually say how the law should be although it might hint at some possible implementations. Specifically, the court didn't decide how abortion was to proceed in contrast to the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision.
A second way is through somewhat called a "Normenkontrollklage". The term is typical of German legalese and means literally "norm control suit". The purpose of it is to challenge whether a unit of the government has violated the constitution in its actions. If, for example, one of the house of parliament votes on a bill and that vote is invalid for whatever reason but the president of the parliament at the time of the vote determined it to be valid, a Normenkontrollklage can be filed with the constitutional court to determine if the parliament followed the rules correctly.
In the case in question two years ago, an immigration law was before the Federal Council (similar to the US Senate as it is a body representing the states). The German constitution says that all delegates of a state have to vote the same for the vote to be valid. Well, during row call, the "governor" of one of the states answered in the name of the state with yes, the deputy governor asnwers with no. The Federal Council president asks again to clarify. The governor again says yes and the deputy says something like "you know my vote on this". The Federal Council president then counted the votes of that state as yes which led to quite a stir in the council chambers. The Christian Democrats (in the opposition at that time) filed a suit with the constitutional court challenging the outcome of the vote and won. The immigration law was thus nullified and had to go through the parliamentary process again. It's now sitting in conference committee, if I remember correctly.
"Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
"We" don't make the laws. "They" do with the assumption we actually want them to. Do they ask us? no.
While I think that may be true sometimes, I think many times they make laws because
1. Corporations asked ($$) for them.
2. It makes them sound like they're actually doing something for us so they can get re-elected. ("I passed a new law to protect our children.")
To get a better word, we might look at current policies which amount to "let them eat cake", and use the appropriate word.
chauvinism
If the government controled teacher, ministers, preists, etc. have never taught this word to you, look it up.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Clinton not telling the truth in a civil case totally unrelated to carrying out the duties of the office of President pales in comparison to Nixon's crimes:
I think to this day it burns up the 'Publicans that they didn't get anything on Clinton, unless their aim was to drag his name through the mud-- and they can't really claim any credit for that. Clinton's mistakes in his private life are his own. That they ever became grounds for impeachment is totally ludicrous. Nixon, on the other hand, failed to do what Bushie is attempting to do: subvert our democracy. Bushie found a convenient excuse: the "war of Scare-orism". Only a diligent citizenry will keep him from succeeding.
Always look on the briight side of life! (whistle, whistle)
I know lots of good Americans, and lots of Americans that oppose these laws, but there's still plenty of people in the US who need to realize that perhaps it's time to spend a bit more time worrying about having a mass murdering (see, the death penalty is considered barbaric in most of the civilized world) fascist wannabe (who have done more to take away your rights, and those of anyone unfortunate enough to be in areas under US occupation?) in the White house than trying to police the rest of the world (who, incidentally, would be much more likely to be friendly to Americans if US governments didn't keep on installing and overthrowing murderous dictators on a regular basis, depending on who they prefer today)
And what is to stop the next gov. from attaining the sad state of affairs we currently have? And the next one? Yeah, "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance". That sounds like eternal slavery to me. Given that the Constitution was written in a very different frame of reference then we are currently in, it might be a good idea to start re-evaluating the Constitution, and chart a new direction entirely. Given that armed militias don't really have the resources to combat a limited nuclear exchange (humor) or implement the best technologies, or the abuses shown by corporations; a strong federal government is going to be an evil necessity. Don't want them Canadians getting ideas. But the terms of that arrangement should be renegotiated. I still like trying public servants who abuse their position for treason. Flat tax, strong State's rights, and perhaps even the right to cede from the Union should the entanglements become too much to bear (if you join an organization, you should have the right to unjoin, as it were, or the Gov. is nothing better than an armed gang. Even the Mafia has better terms). I digress. Anyway, the point is (without sounding to Pollyanna) we already have most of the ideas and knowledge to make the US a better place than it currently is. We lack political will. It becomes a question of do you want to sacrifice now for something better, or continue the sacrifices you're currently making for...
I think you make a very good point. To further elaborate on your point and to make an analogy, the constitution does not spell out that citizens have the right to breathe air. Does this mean we do *not* have the right to breathe air? Or does it mean those who drafted the constitution assumed future governments could grasp the idea of fundamental rights and didn't bother spelling out any and every possible right that may need to be protected?
Just because something isn't in the constitution, doesn't mean it isn't a right our forefathers intended to have protected.
So I whole heartedly agree with what you say and just wished to expand on it with that analogy that popped in my head.
Beware blue cats moving at
Golly, that must be why Canada (and most industrialized nations with nationalized health care systems) have lower infant mortality, longer median lifespan - better health by most metrics - than the good ole' US of A.
My two physician friends from the UK who've spent time working in the US laugh themselves silly about the state of clinical medicine here. They laugh about the lack of preventative medicine, they laugh about the overuse of absurdly expensive diagnostics that are not substantially better (gotta justify the expense of that new MRI machine), they laugh at the procedure-based pay system, where an MD's income is directly tied to the number and types of procedures performed. You're gonna have that lower back surgery whether it is likely to help you or not - the doc has payments on an 8-series beemer and a cottage in the Hamptons. Or maybe she's a young doctor just scraping by and she's choosing between bankruptcy and $250,000 in student loans.
Either way, you lose.
Repressive anti-freedom legilation has its roots in liberal philosophy. America is strong because the people are empowered, not the federal government. A government only becomes strong at the expense of the people. This has always and will always be true. A strong Federal government results in a week America.
As a Libertarian leaning Republican, I strongly appose the PATRIOT Act. One only need to study the history of the events leading up to WWII and the subsequent invasion of France, to understand the problem with it.
Civil liberties in the US are under fire now than perhaps any point since the McCarthy era. The Patriot Act serves as a frightening visage of what power-hungry legislators may serve up to placate scared populations. What frightens me more, and what I have not seen mentioned here yet, is the precedent such an act sets. This precedent is carried into this new Domestic Security Enhancement Act which would allow for government-controlled wiretapping, secret arrests, and DNA bank construction on ordinary US citizens without our permission!
The balance between security and freedom is a tenuous one, with increased freedom permitting greater criminal activity and increased security quashing intellectual exploration and constructive criticism. Any criticism of our government is branded un-patriotic in many places (and even unofficially in the press) and may cause arguments or fights. Would the Patriot Act II, or DSEA, allow for political opposition to become targets of investigation by the ruling party? Our intellectual freedom is one of our strengths but what will happen to American society if we start to strangle it?
There are even those who get incensed about questioning the leadership of respective parties, whether G W Bush or H R Clinton is concerned. The actions of our government of late have divided this nation moreso than any I can ever remember. We have factionalized over new attempts of the current leadership in the federal government to expand their powers to those normally resevred for wartime status. However, without a Congressional declaration of war, can these be justified? Would US citizens be forced to turn to military courts under the new DSEA legislation where appeals may not exist and due process is a formality at best?
The first Patriot Act nearly bankrupted several states and forced reductions in education, law enforcement, education, and other areas. Another one may well bankrupt these states and damage the financial strength behind many others. Kentucky released 600 prisoners, while other states have taken more drastic measures. Thus, financially, socially, legally, and intellectually, we can ill afford this new legislation.
If the federal government is going to continue to impose on the rights of the people and states behind them, it sets up some of the same fears and mentality that lead to the Civil War. Any government that instills fear in its own people while being unable to properly manage its resources inevitably collapses, like the USSR. We appear to be on track to a similar fate if we enact these bills so blindly. Even the original Patriot Act divides local governments to the points that the police chiefs are willing to buck the local government to answer to the federal one. There must be better ways to protect the people of the US from the (rare) terrorist event without subjecting us to such loss of liberty and rights.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
Just as you would have been then. Don't make a mistake, our founding fathers were England's anarchists.
I hope they are reading it, I have a few things to say:
/flame mode off
/flame mode on
Jefferson, Adams and Franklin are spinning in their graves fast enough right now to grant them a patent on perpetual motion.
You greedy fascist idiots have managed to fuck this country up to the point where it will take generations to repair the damage. Thanks a lot. I hope there is a hell, because you are going to rot in it. Satan would welcome such as you, you're his kind. Just remember, being a politician in hell, while being an elevated position, is not cupcakes and sweetcream.
If enough people in this country get a whiff of what you're really doing, there will not be a hole deep enough for you to hide in. Remember the members of the Armed Forces who have put their lives on the line, and sacrificed them, for the ideals which made this country great. Remember that there are enough people in this country who own firearms to make this resemble another Vietnam. Remember that, and repent your sins, morons.
You know where to find me, if you want me that badly. Just bring plenty of weapons, because I'm armed and considered seriously patriotic towards the PEOPLE of this country. Fuck you and your goddamn corporate cronies. If you want to play Who Will We Fuck Next, then we'll find a nice little island for you (Bikini Atoll perhaps) and put you all there so you can play your little dominance games with each other until you all die of Terminal Hemorrhoids.
Damn, I've wanted to vent for a while. Time to go outside now and be with the Three Dimensional People.
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
I'm waiting for the Fuzzy Little Kittens Act. Who would even think about voting against Fuzzy Little Kittens?
assuming this example is true for a second, this points out just how stupid this whole thing is. They inquire about where the money is coming from. ostensibly to ascertain if the money is from/for an "evil terrorist organisation" (tm). He replies "my personal savings". they say, "ok, have a nice day".
Am I to believe that if they called alqueda op #342 and asked "where is the money from", op #342 would say "saudi gov't terrorism fund". If op #342 is really willing to plot to destroy multiple lives, wouldn't he be willing to lie about where it came from?
they can't/shouldn't/won't verify the claims for all of these so why bother asking?
Sounds like good ol' fashioned McCarthyism arresting people who we suspect to be Terrorists.
It also is reminiscent of the witch hunts. It also sounds similar to the start of Nazi Germany with the secret police.
Meanwhile, numerous interest groups are taking aim at the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, which would strengthen the Patriot Act by allowing the government to make secret arrests, place unrestricted wiretaps and create DNA databases on ordinary Americans.
We need to protect our privacy or we will no longer be a free nation we will be no better than old Communist Russia where you can't make a move without the government knowing.
How many cities passed legislation against the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act that Bill Clinton signed into law after the Oklahoma City bombing? Being the precursor to PATRIOT you'd think that some of these civil libertarians would have noticed it.
A friend and I were recently talking about Jaywalking, when Leno interviews people on the street and discovers that most of them couldn't tell you who the Vice President is or where Iraq is.
So whenever people complain about voter turnout, I think, thank goodness! We have enough idiots in this country without them skewing the vote. Unfortunately, politicians are getting more and more skilled at alarming these idiots into allowing them to make these sorts of laws, whether it's Democrats ensuring tax-cut payments for non tax-payers, or Republicans getting "Patriot" laws to protect us from "terrorists" by letting them lock them away without a lawyer or a hearing.
I fear the downfall of America will be our poor education system.