VIA Introduces A New Laptop Motherboard

Finally... by Kai_MH · 2003-07-09 10:43 · Score: 5, Interesting

Via CPU + Linux = Sweet stuff. Seriously, it's about time there was an inexpensive Linux Laptop. I might even consider getting it instead of a new mini-ITX system. Whee!

Re:Finally... by Vacuous · 2003-07-09 10:46 · Score: 1

Since when is a VIA CPU sweet?

Remember Cyrix anyone?
Re:Finally... by Kai_MH · 2003-07-09 10:59 · Score: 1

Since they take up very little power, usually require no or small HSF.
Re:Finally... by tomstdenis · 2003-07-09 11:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

I remember Cyrix MI and MII processors as the "I can buy this on a retail job part-time salary when I was 16" processors which wickedly out performed any economical intel processor of the time.

In fact I recall my 486SLC/66 had desperate troubles playing mp3s yet my MI/133 [or 166 I forget] would sail through them with power to spare. My 233Mhz MII was even sweeter.

At the time I could put a mobo+cpu together for like 200$ or so.

My current processor cost 225$ alone [iirc].

Oh yeah and as another poster pointed out the Cyrix cores were much better with heat than intel/amd. The C3 is even better.

Tom

--
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Re:Finally... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:28 · Score: 0

Are you nuts? I need a hot processor or I can't cook on my computer's case!
I save so much money on gas for the stove, and even the electricty the computer burns is serving two purposes.
Re:Finally... by JCholewa · 2003-07-09 11:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

> Since when is a VIA CPU sweet?

Since they started using solid, low power cores based on Centaur team designs.

> Remember Cyrix anyone?

You mean the team that VIA disbanded when they decided to go with primarily Centaur-derived technology? What about them?

--
-JC
http://www.jc-news.com/coding/SFi/
(the above contains exaggerations, but less so than parent)
Re:Finally... by dalslad · 2003-07-09 12:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, the secret is out. But guess whose been making all those Linux white box systems? VIA, same people. Wall-Mart, Fry's Great Quality, Sam's, Microtel, Wintergreen, Sub300, Neo Computers, Galaxy, Tranquil and Newron all have VIA motherboards and processors. I won't forget that VIA was once Cyrix. I bought three of them and they work great. They came with ThizLinux - an RPM based OS from Hong Kong, but they took everything I threw at them: Slackware, RedHat, Gentoo, SuSE, Debian, Xandros and Solaris 9. Hat's off to them for engineering their systems for Linux. I put XP on one and it worked OK, but not like it does with Linux. So off came XP.
Re:Finally... by Cpt_Kirks · 2003-07-09 12:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

Remember Cyrix anyone?

My wifes computer uses a MII 200mhz. She won't let me upgrade it. It works fine for her, browsing, email and mp3s.

My little m10000 Nehemiah mini-itx toolbox PC here chugs along fine for DVD ripping, PVR, video processing, etc. When I get a pretty case for it, it's going into the living room.
Re:Finally... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 14:15 · Score: 0

The C3 is much cooler, but those old cyrix chips like the Cyrix PR200 (my 4th x86 based system had one of these) were extremely hot running chips.
Re:Finally... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 16:22 · Score: 0

Oh yeah. OWNED!
Re:Finally... by hemanman · 2003-07-09 22:14 · Score: 1

You MUST be joking?!?

Cyrix was utter crap, I was the sad owner of a motherboard with a Cyrix 486DLC 40MHz processor, and it couldn't run the 4gw dos extender at all, so I couldn't play Doom, Heretic, Hexen etc. etc.

-H
Re:Finally... by AppyPappy · 2003-07-10 00:26 · Score: 1

Considering that I paid $100 for my last MB/CPU upgrade, I'd say were are in better shape. My MB/CPU combo for my 266 many years ago was about $500.

When I can double speed for $50, I upgrade.

--
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Re:Finally... by Flywheel · 2003-07-10 00:36 · Score: 1

One little point that you might have misse - the C3 is not a Cyrix processor it has nothing to do with Cyrix. The VIA C3 is based on the IDT/Centaur Winchip - that has always been rather cool.

--
Live long and prosper...
Re:Finally... by Flywheel · 2003-07-10 00:44 · Score: 1

Vel National Semiconductor was the cause of the first breakup - even though VIA was the destroyer - but then again, I always suspected, from the first second that all VIA wanted was the trademark.

--
Live long and prosper...
Re:Finally... by Physics+Nobody · 2003-07-10 02:40 · Score: 1

JC! I don't think I've seen you comment on slashdot before. I miss your website. How have you been? Send me an email sometime: davek at sdf dot lonestar dot org

Physics Nobody, aka Upsilon

--
Physics is good
Re:Finally... by OugadasBob · 2003-07-10 11:00 · Score: 1

I'm still running a Cyrix MII P300. Coupled with 192 mb of pc100 SDRam, and a GForce2 PCI card, it is able to run Half-Life, Diablo2LOD, MaxPayne, Mechwarrior4, and Baldur's Gate2 at pleasingly playable levels. Anything much more than that is out of it's class, but it is still running good, I've had it since 1997, only problem I've had with it was a bad power supply in 1998.
Re:Finally... by bhtooefr · 2003-07-10 13:46 · Score: 1

My grandmother had a PR150+ burn out it was so bad! I have a 166MHz MediaGX (closest living relative is the Celeron, and that's not even related - maybe inspired) box, and my P75 laptop can outstrip it AT THE LOW PROCESSOR SPEED, which is something like 50MHz!!!!! Same amount of RAM too (not counting the 2MB taken by the shared VRAM on the Cyrix) Same OS! Nearly the same variant (OSR2 on the laptop, OSR2.1 on the Cyrix) too!
Re:Finally... by Cpt_Kirks · 2003-07-11 01:15 · Score: 1

The only problem with my wifes computer is the BIOS won't recognize large drives. I slapped an ancient 4GB in it and everything's fine. Nothing on it but a few mp3s anyway.
Re:Finally... by MarcQuadra · 2003-07-22 09:00 · Score: 1

Not as far as I'm concerned. The gcc optimizations for the C3 seies of CPU are way off. Until I get really efficient binaries from "-march=c3-ezra" I'm afraid I'll stick to the iBook or PIII-M system.

Also, the CLE266 chipset doesn't have linux support from VIA, XFree-4.4 will have 2D drivers for the onboard graphics, and sound is coming along in ALSA, but RIGHT NOW linux totally sucks on VIA's low-power stuff.

If anything, VIA should be working with GCC developers to get really good CPU targets worked out, and they should fork over everything they've got on their chipsets to X, ALSA, and kernel developers. They've got nothing to lose, VIA doesn't have an edge in ANY market, their audio sucks, their video sucks, their CPUs are puny, their motherboard designs are pretty weak. All they've got is that their product uses less juice than any other major player, they oughtta make the most of that by helping out the open-source stuff run on it.

--
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails

800 bucks by blackmonday · 2003-07-09 10:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

Check out Got Apex. You can get a full featured 14 or 15 inch-screen Dell for less than 800 bucks when you use the numerous discounts and rebates available. Or even better get a refurbed iBook for a little more.

Re:800 bucks by stripmarkup · 2003-07-09 10:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

The key is portability. This notebook is about 3 lbs. Normally you pay a premium for small size, all else being equal. That is why $800 is impressive.

--
See charts for twitter trends on Trendistic
Re:800 bucks by jhunsake · 2003-07-09 10:57 · Score: 1

Isn't it size that really matters? 5 lbs is absolutely nothing to an average healthy person.
Re:800 bucks by evn · 2003-07-09 11:10 · Score: 1

When you add the cd-rw/dvd rom it costs as much as an ibook (it's more expensive if you include the student discount). Not that I'm evangalizing apple hardware here but doesn't $800 seam a little steap for those who aren't trying to make a political statement (screw microsoft) when both Dell and Apple offer cheaper systems?
Re:800 bucks by macshit · 2003-07-09 11:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

5 lbs may not cause most people to fall over and die, but if it's something you're carrying around all day, the less weight the better. Even a few pounds can quickly become annoying.

--
We live, as we dream -- alone....
Re:800 bucks by MisterFancypants · 2003-07-09 12:30 · Score: 1

5 lbs may not cause most people to fall over and die, but if it's something you're carrying around all day, the less weight the better. Even a few pounds can quickly become annoying.
Who is actually carrying around their laptop all day? And if they really are carrying around their laptop all day, why do they even have it, considering they aren't really usable while being carried? 5 pounds is nothing.
Re:800 bucks by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 12:35 · Score: 0

Don't travel, eh? I do, and 5 pounds SUCKS. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't actually need a laptop, since they apparently dont travel.
Re:800 bucks by timeOday · 2003-07-09 12:43 · Score: 1

Size and weight correlate pretty well on laptops.
Re:800 bucks by macshit · 2003-07-09 13:28 · Score: 1

As just one example, one of the nicest things about laptops is the ability to go to a cafe and hack. Since I, at least, tend to go out in the morning, do stuff all day, and then return at night, this entails carting the laptop around with me the rest of the day while I do other stuff (maybe you drive everywhere and can just stick it in your car, but I don't).

[Another common example might be college students.]

--
We live, as we dream -- alone....
Re:800 bucks by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 14:55 · Score: 0

You're a pussy.
Re:800 bucks by jhunsake · 2003-07-09 14:57 · Score: 1

You need to work out more.
Re:800 bucks by Excarnate · 2003-07-09 16:01 · Score: 1

Wrong.

5 lbs is 5 lbs, not nothing. I mean, duh. So what I believe you are dimly trying to say is no one cares about any laptop weighing under 5 lbs because a healthy average person can carry 5 lbs without real strain.

I fail to be convinced. For example, my wife carries her portable, a case, lots of papers, journels, et cetera. It adds up.

I find the lighter a portable is, the more likely I am to carry it with me. It's like with pistols--better a .22 with than a .45 locked up at home.

And of course there are people like my friend who is 4' 10". And my other friend who used to be strong but is now old and has a body wearing out on him.

But that's enough for now.

--
.signature: No such file or directory
Re:800 bucks by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 16:10 · Score: 0

Which Dell and Apple systems are under 4 lbs. at this price?
Re:800 bucks by adamruck · 2003-07-09 17:03 · Score: 1

your one of those people that carries around a 6 inch think laptop and a satellite phone arent you

--
Selling software wont make you money, selling a service will.
Re:800 bucks by jhunsake · 2003-07-09 18:52 · Score: 1

Your wife's diapers probably weigh more than 5 lbs, so what's your point? Anyone in decent shape should be able to carry 25 lbs no problem. I'd hate to see you people try to survive in the military.
Re:800 bucks by Dr.+Evil · 2003-07-10 00:21 · Score: 1

Quite right
A 5-lb notebook is a bigger notebook, it means carrying a larger bag.
Take this from someone who carried a 7-lb notebook, a 5-lb Targus bag, along with a power supply, kensington lock, a book to read, lunch and papers... (no extra battery)
That's 15-20-lbs of dead weight.
Now carry that bag onto public transit. It's a PITA. It has to be guarded too -- you can't put it down very often, and you can't wear a backpack on a crowded subway.
If you have a car, you can't leave the bag in the trunk, it's company equipment, and too valuable.
Don't forget that in the military, you're wearing fatigues. Remember that with this bag, you're wearing business-casual. You also can't look like you're tired of carrying it, nor can you get sweaty. You also may be in worse-than-average physical shape.
In the evening, you might want to go out with some friends, but if you have to take your machine home, you'll be carrying that monster.
Finally, think of things like grocery shopping, Christmas shopping, etc.
A 3-lb notebook instantly shaves off 4lbs. The bag can be a well-made soft backpack with a notebook liner, shaving off another 3lbs. You can carry it in your hand while on a crowded train and throw it over one shoulder when boarding and leaving busses etc.
Every little bit helps.
Re:800 bucks by metamatic · 2003-07-10 01:42 · Score: 1

Actually, you can get an iBook for $800 too.

http://dealmac.com/artclick.html?53275,73413

It's good to see Linux laptops, but $800 for a C3 based system really isn't competitive.

--
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Re:800 bucks by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-10 04:26 · Score: 0

And if they really are carrying around their laptop all day, why do they even have it, considering they aren't really usable while being carried? 5 pounds is nothing.
You don't have your laptop whispering in your ear and handling voice and touch commands while you're walking around? When do you find time to read your mail and the /. comments?
Pick up a 5-pound bag of sugar. You think carrying that around is nothing? Well, you can handle it but it's not as easy as a wristwatch.
Re:800 bucks by jchristopher · 2003-07-10 15:28 · Score: 1

I've seen the iBook touted in several places on this thread. If you plan to use Linux, great, but if you're hoping for OS X, just forget it. Those things are hopelessly slow.
Re:800 bucks by Excarnate · 2003-07-10 15:50 · Score: 1

!v

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.signature: No such file or directory
Re:800 bucks by metamatic · 2003-07-11 05:09 · Score: 1

I run OS X on mine just fine.

--
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak

Question by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 10:45 · Score: 0, Troll

Does it run linux?

Re:Question by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 10:47 · Score: 0

Does it run linux?
More importantly, can I run Windows XP on it? (laugh, its funny)
Re:Question by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 19:42 · Score: 0

No, linux pwns IT

Who needs hardware DivX... by TeknoHog · 2003-07-09 10:45 · Score: 5, Informative

..when you have MPlayer. People have reported that it plays divx/dvd just fine, in software, on Linux with VIA motherboards, even those below 1 GHz. I believe that because my P3-450 plays them just as well.

And I don't even have XVideo, which would speed up decoding (it does a part of divx/dvd decoding in hardware, namely colorspace conversion and scaling). The current VIA mobos have XVideo support in XFree86 CVS, IIRC.

--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.

Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by bmidgley · 2003-07-09 10:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

Until there are better vertical blank synchronization methods, anyone with an eye for detail will insist on a hardware decoder.

I see a lot of motion artifacts under every player, even after employing the syncfb module on a matrox.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 10:56 · Score: 0

A P3-450 is about 3x faster than a ViaC3-1GHz.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 10:57 · Score: 3, Informative

i had an 800mhz VIA MB and used the via linux drivers from their site. I was able to encode to divx on the fly (320x240,30fps,1000 bitrate) with about 70% CPU usage. I was also able to playback those divx files at around 30% CPU usage. you do the math, baby!

ok i'll do it for you: i was able to watch divx movies and record them at the same time.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by CausticWindow · 2003-07-09 10:57 · Score: 0

Ah.. the new elite. I bet you need vertical refreshrates of 120hz plus, too. Your eyes are too delicate to use a screen that costs less than $2000.

Don't say it.. you're an audiophile too, your ears start bleeding if that one record of yours is played on a setup that costs less than $4000.

--
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by pbox · 2003-07-09 10:59 · Score: 1

The VIA 1GHZ Nehemiah is about as fast as a P3-400 on average. When it comes to floating point of vector operations, it is even slower. And the is NOT the mobile version, but the full power one. Sorry, it might not be viable with VIA :-(

Don't get me wrong, I like VIA, even if their products thend to be flakier than others, but they at least innovate. See mini-itx, no-fan CPUs, dual channel ddr, etc. Intel has stopped doing that for a while, as it does not sow favourably on the balance sheets.

--
Code poet, espresso fiend, starter upper.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 10:59 · Score: 0

My P2-366Mhz plays just fine with hardware Xv (Neomagic) on HP Omnibook 4150. Infact, I use it a lot to play Divx/Xvid movies. It's great.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:06 · Score: 0

I watch full screen xvid movies using an ATI 3D Charger with mplayer. It's got no acceleration at all because nobody has a driver for it.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by iantri · 2003-07-09 11:12 · Score: 1

This is not necessarily the case. Personally, I find it the tearing artifacts you see playing most DivX video annoying -- Even when you use the various sync options, your screen will refresh in the middle of a frame when your framerates and refresh rates don't divide together to produce a whole number;
a 24fps video is going exhibit tearing artifacts unless your refresh rate is 72hz, etc..
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:34 · Score: 1, Insightful

vertical blank synchronization
On an LCD?
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by Sloppy · 2003-07-09 11:47 · Score: 2, Funny

I just use a green marker on the edges of my G400 card.

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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by satterth · 2003-07-09 12:58 · Score: 1

Was it the EPIA motherboard or someother one with with a much faster CPU attached?
From what i have read, the 800 EPIA is barely fast enough to do one of the things you mentioned, let alone both.

--
Being called a dork on Slashdot must be like being called the retard in special ed.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 16:14 · Score: 0

Links to benchmarks?
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by mobets · 2003-07-09 17:47 · Score: 1

You know what's funny, I used to think 70 or 75 was a good solid refresh rate. Now that I run 85hz, I can see the flicker at 70 and every now and then at 75.

--

It was me, I did it, I moved your cheese
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by po8 · 2003-07-09 17:59 · Score: 2, Funny

You know what's funny, I used to think 70 or 75 was a good solid refresh rate. Now that I run 85hz, I can see the flicker at 70 and every now and then at 75.

Keep squinting, friend. Soon you will see the fnords.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by Gherald · 2003-07-09 19:49 · Score: 1

VIA = Dual channel DDR? Since when? Nvidia's nforce2 has DualDDR, but VIAs KT600 does not.

--
The unofficial /. digest
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by warmcat · 2003-07-09 21:38 · Score: 1

haha - if I mod points today...

On the refresh rate thing, switch to LCDs, they stay at the last level until 'refreshed' to the level in the next frame, that's why there is no flicker at any refresh rate with LCDs.
Re:Who needs hardware DivX... by joshwa1 · 2003-07-10 00:31 · Score: 1

Not really true. A C3-800 is about the speed of a P2-350/400 at most things, but because the Hard Drive and the rest of the system is more modern than most P2 systems, the C3 systems seem much quicker. http://www.joshwa1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/pcs_mini_i tx_intro.htm

Hardware decoding necessary? by Goonie · 2003-07-09 10:47 · Score: 1

I thought even a relative slug like this laptop would be fast enough to decode just about anything in software these days. My P3/733 with a Matrox G400 decodes MPEG-4 just fine.

Or is this machine even more poky than that?

--

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)

Re:Hardware decoding necessary? by the+grace+of+R'hllor · 2003-07-09 10:58 · Score: 1

The 1GHz Nehemiah core Epia's handle DivX of all shapes and sizes just fine, and is available up from the M-series Epia boards. The 1GHz Ezra core that previously powered the M10000, however, still had some problems with extremely high quality divx. In some benchmark showing, I believe, FPS, the Nehemiah pretty much doubled the figure the Ezra was churning out.

In short, the C3-cores are slower than even similar-speed celerons, but they're getting better, and a 1GHz Nehemiah is fast enough to do multimedia playback.
Re:Hardware decoding necessary? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:03 · Score: 0

The ViaC3-1GHz runs about the same speed as a Celeron 400MHz which would be about a P3-100MHz(if you could clock it that low).

Look at Toms Hardware Guide for the review.
Re:Hardware decoding necessary? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:45 · Score: 0

if it is as fast as a celeron 400, it can decode even the highest res mpeg4. obviously with the right software, not used in that review.
i had no problem with 720x480 on a p2 350 (64Mb and no swap) , not much faster than a celeron 400, i heard from a friend a success story of 640xsomething + ac3 on a celeron 300. mplayer developers speaks about 800x600 on k6 chips...

More approriately by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 10:47 · Score: 0

Does it run linux?

The question you are looking for is Will Linux run on it. The answer is no, unlexx you recompile your kernel with the -RTFMj00F4GZ0RZ options..

what i wonder... by intermodal · 2003-07-09 10:49 · Score: 4, Interesting

is how overall performance compares. I can get a refurbished IBM ThinkPad coming off corporate lease with a Pentium III circa 700MHz, and know for a fact that the motherboard is fast. I've seen too many motherboards not able to handle their speed to give it a lot of credence without proving it. Thinkpad, on the other hand, has been consistently rugged and reliable for me.

--
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!

Re:what i wonder... by rsborg · 2003-07-09 12:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

I can get a refurbished IBM ThinkPad coming off corporate lease with a Pentium III circa 700MHz
Not that I doubt you, but where have you found these off-lease deals? Usually for $800, you get a P3, 500 to 650 Mhz, with a used battery (on average my experience has been 50% charge) and possibly some case defects (nothing functionally wrong, but definitely used). I've had to replace both battery and keyboards on all the used laptops i've bought, within 1 year. (3 dells, 1 thinkpad, 1 toshiba). These are not commodity parts, and that alone costs on average $100 per laptop per part... if you can find them (usually, for old laptops like the Dell CPI-R series, you can't buy them from dell, you can only find used ones on ebay).
With this system, you get a small form factor laptop (The only think that I could think of that would make a difference is the warranty... which is often similar from various providers (and probably don't support linux).

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Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting

Real men build their own refrigerators... by poptones · 2003-07-09 10:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

Very cool. So I can buy a laptop motherboard separate from the laptop itself? So I could, in theory, pick up a cheap(er) used laptop, machine a cool new case from plastic, and roll my own transportable PC?

Re:Real men build their own refrigerators... by Tmack · 2003-07-09 11:19 · Score: 1

Only if it happens to be the same model notebook, or one close enough to have the same chassi+monitor. About the only common components between different notebooks are the CD/DVD/HD/Floppy drives (ignoring any mounting hardware or cosmetics you can harvest from the old drive, they are mostly the same), ram, CPU (if removable) and sometimes modem card. Most have unique chassi designs that require a specific motherboard to fit, and even then you have to match the LCD to the video hookup on the mboard's video card.
Tm

--
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Re:Real men build their own refrigerators... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:59 · Score: 0

The problem with that approach, is that plastic cases are for l4m3rz.
To do it right, you need aluminum, which is difficult to smelt. I finally figured out that I'm going to have to switch to coke as my fuel, in order to get my forge hot enough. So I'm in the process of building the oven (out of adobe bricks) to reduce the coal in. As I cut the bricks, I keep telling myself, "This case is gonna kick ass!"

We've got Linux laptops now, but... by usotsuki · 2003-07-09 10:50 · Score: 2, Interesting

Where are the BSD laptops? :)

Seriously though, this is a Good Thing. But I know and you know that larger companies aren't going to go for Linux because the "GPV" bothers them.

I think there ought to be a BSD laptop (no, MacOS X on a PowerBook doesn't count!), if only because I think every Linux needs to have a corresponding FreeBSD - light, truly free, and just as powerful in most cases as its GPL'd competitor.

Why not?

-uso.

--
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS

Re:We've got Linux laptops now, but... by Idou · 2003-07-09 11:03 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I don't believe a word you say . . .

(if you don't know Japanese, don't mod this)

--
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
Re:We've got Linux laptops now, but... by usotsuki · 2003-07-09 11:40 · Score: 1

The reference is to my UID (usotsuki).

BTW, a +2 Off-Topic? Whew! LOL

-uso.

--
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
Re:We've got Linux laptops now, but... by macshit · 2003-07-09 12:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

But I know and you know that larger companies aren't going to go for Linux because the "GPV" bothers them.

I certainly don't know that -- in my experience larger companies don't really care what OS it runs, as long as it runs their apps and gives the user experience they want (whether this is true for lindows or not, I have no idea, but linux and freebsd are probably comparable).

In many cases they like linux because it has a buzz (freebsd doesn't, really, despite OSX), and that makes them feel less nervous about it.

--
We live, as we dream -- alone....
Re:We've got Linux laptops now, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 12:18 · Score: 3, Interesting

Take one of the "Windows" cli network tools (ftp.exe, netstat.exe etc.) and run strings on it. If "truly free" means giving away my code to huge companies that will make a fortune on it but will no way and never do anything for me in return, I'll stick with the "falsly free" GPV; thank you very much.
The whole point to the BSDs as well as to the GNU project was to create OSes that aren't owned by big companies, so the code-proliferating traditions of unix hackerdom can continue. Donating code to big companies that publicly state they won't be part of the proliferation process is stupid, contraproductive and against the spirit in which the projects were created.
Re:We've got Linux laptops now, but... by macshit · 2003-07-09 12:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

Also, another important issue (now that I think about it), is support -- there are quite a few large and well-known companies that will sell you support for linux, whereas I'm not aware of any (large, well-known) companies that will do so for a typical *bsd system.

[Companies with in-house support staff want to standardize on as few systems as possible, and since linux currently has a fairly hefty corporate mind-share advantage over freebsd, freebsd is likely to lose out in many cases.]

--
We live, as we dream -- alone....
Re:We've got Linux laptops now, but... by usotsuki · 2003-07-09 12:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

I don't understand why parent got modded down; that is an excellent point.

I think an ideal license would be one that allowed *unmodified* binaries - that passed an MD5 test - to be distributed with just a Web link to a copy of the source that, when built, produced the exact same binary, but require modified binaries to include the source code.

That would give all the advantages of the GPL without turning off companies.

-uso.

--
Dreams, dreams, don't doubt dreams, dreaming children's dreaming dreams. Sailor Moon SS
Re:We've got Linux laptops now, but... by aardvarkjoe · 2003-07-09 13:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

The whole point to the BSDs as well as to the GNU project was to create OSes that aren't owned by big companies, so the code-proliferating traditions of unix hackerdom can continue. Donating code to big companies that publicly state they won't be part of the proliferation process is stupid, contraproductive and against the spirit in which the projects were created.

If this was true, the BSD license would never have been written.

You don't have to allow your code to be used in this manner, but there are those of us who feel that giving our stuff away with no strings attached benefits more people.

--

How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
Re:We've got Linux laptops now, but... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 22:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Look at it from a historical viewpoint. The original BSD licence had an advertising clause to prevent companies from taking a run with the code.
By taking out the advertising clause one problem was solved, but another one was introduced. Of course the advertising clause had its problems, but you can't claim the BSD licence we use today is the same licence we started out with.
(Yes I am the same AC as the one that posted the original comment.)

Cool - a neat BSD laptop. by ColdGrits · 2003-07-09 10:51 · Score: 3, Interesting

Might be interesting to buy and have as my BSD laptop - reasonable power and a good secure OS woudl suit me fine for portable computing, and this sounds as though it could be just the thing!

--
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re:Cool - a neat BSD laptop. by mrseigen · 2003-07-09 14:43 · Score: 1

Does *BSD have good laptop support? I didn't even consider it... APM and everything included?
Re:Cool - a neat BSD laptop. by baka_boy · 2003-07-09 15:17 · Score: 1

I haven't done much tinkering with FreeBSD on laptops, (esp. since all the FreeBSD laptop compatibility documentation I've been able to find is at least two years old -- tsk, tsk, boys!) but I've had decent success with OpenBSD, and NetBSD has floored me by working perfectly on just about every piece of hardware I've thrown at it.

Let me give you an example: about a year ago, I was broke, but wanted a cheap laptop with 802.11b for lightweight scripting and admin work for my web development clients. I spent a couple of days poking around eBay, until I found an IBM Thinkpad 560 (166MHz Pentium, 40MB RAM, 750 MB HD) -- not a beefy machine by any current standards, but at about $200 for laptop, external floppy drive, and PCMCIA wireless card, I was getting quite a bargain.

I started off by installing Debian, which worked fine, except for the fact that current versions of 'apt-get' use about 32 MB of RAM all by themselves! Given that I wanted to run X, (mainly for Dillo, Xchat, and a few other network clients) devoting 80% of my RAM to the package manager alone wasn't really feasible, esp. since with a hard drive that small, I was swapping packages on and off the machine on more or less a daily basis.

So, I decided to try out NetBSD, as I have had excellent luck with OpenBSD on server and firewall boxes in the past, but wanted something a little more hardware-agnostic. After a painless net install off the standard 2 floppy "laptop" disk set (which correctly identified and used my cheapo off-brand wireless card, no less!) I was off and running.

30 minutes of 'pkg_add ...' and minor configuration tweaking later, I had a solid *NIX clone running on a 5 year-old laptop, which not only supported the video, sound, and network hardware I had, but even handled such arcana as automatically switching to APM suspend mode when I closed the monitor/lid (which is something I have yet to accomplish with Debian, Red Hat, Gentoo, or Slackware on any laptop I've tried).

XFree86 is Linux's weak point by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 10:52 · Score: 0

Everything decent that XFree86 supports is in XFree86 CVS. Their release cycle is so damn slow, by the time they finally release it in a new stable release, like, around a decade later, the hardware it supports is as obsolete an a Tseng Labs ET4000 ISA is today.

Re:XFree86 is Linux's weak point by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 16:28 · Score: 0

Shut up. ET4000s RULE!

Great news... by jamonterrell · 2003-07-09 10:53 · Score: 5, Insightful

But I'd like to see a lot more of it. If open source software continues to team up with distributers and hardware manufacturers like this they could be well on their way to being viable M$ competition. If little johnny asks his dad for a computer it's going to be a tough job for M$ to convince johnny's daddy to buy him a windows computer for an extra $200(rough cost of OEM operating system license and office license?) when the linux machine boasts all the same features. M$ has ridden the coattails of every manufacturer in the world shipping a license of Windows/Office with every computer they sell for long enough. Now all they need is to work out a few more kinks and get some advertisement going.

--
I can count to 1023 on my hands. Ask me about #132.

Motherboard? by binaryDigit · 2003-07-09 10:55 · Score: 4, Interesting

VIA just came out with a new laptop motherboard

I can't find any info on any motherboard. Everything they have is only about the cpu. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but can anyone point me to where the VIA site discusses the actual motherboard. I was getting very jazzed thinking that I might be able to purchase a motherboard and use it for some projects (low heat, low power, small form factor, nice).

Re:Motherboard? by Slack3r78 · 2003-07-09 11:01 · Score: 1

Look at the mini-itx mobos that are normally used with the C3. Linkage. 17cm2 is hard to beat when you're talking small form factor.
Re:Motherboard? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:27 · Score: 0

The title is incorrect - VIA have launched a "new" processor.

In fact it looks to me like a Nehemiah-core C3 processor with some power saving technology thrown in, aimed at the Centrino market. VIA are fond of rebadging tech until it sticks - the C3 is just a Cyrix, albeit several generations on.

Compare and Contrast...

Of course Antaur laptops aren't going to be as powerful as an Athlon or P4 luggable, but they might actually weigh less than a small cottage and cost under $1000... Is it just me, or have laptops actually got bigger over the years?
Re:Motherboard? by bhtooefr · 2003-07-11 07:31 · Score: 1

Wrong. The C3 was originally going to be the successor to the Cyrix II processors, but the VIA version of the WinChip (which VIA also owns now) was ahead of schedule, and the C3 was behind schedule, so they enhanced their WinChip2 and called it a C3. BTW, that was supposed to be their Celeron-competitor.

As for laptops getting heavier, I can't say much, but I had an IBM PC Convertible, and that's even heavier than Toshiba's 17" laptop! (BTW, did anyone see the 17" WinBook? Don't know how much it weighs, but...) I also had a crappy leading edge that's pretty light, a PowerBook 180 (not TOO heavy) and a Toshiba Satellite Pro 405CS that is pretty heavy. Those are all ancient, though, but I'm getting some Dell Inspiron (I didn't choose it...), so I'll see how heavy they are.

Laptop processor, not laptop motherboard by HotNeedleOfInquiry · 2003-07-09 10:57 · Score: 2, Informative

I read the article and could find no information on buying a VIA laptop motherboard, something I would have a use for, believe it or not.

I could find no information on a motherboard, just the processor chip.

--
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...

Who needs MPlayer by JohnwheeleR · 2003-07-09 10:58 · Score: 0, Flamebait

When you have to deal with the culture of their development team and their nazi attitudes. Don't believe me? Look here

Re:Who needs MPlayer by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:26 · Score: 0

Old news; try getting info that isn't a year and a half out of date before posting.
Re:Who needs MPlayer by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:29 · Score: 0

maybe i could believe you, maybe not, but for sure i won't believe joe barr in that (old) rant.

Is is any good? by roumada · 2003-07-09 10:59 · Score: 4, Interesting

With all the problems I have with the VIA chipset in my current PC, I'd hesitate before buying a laptop with their motherboard/processor. I'd much rather see nvidia get around to that nForce mobile chipset-- but that probably wouldnt be targeting the low price side of the market.

Re:Is is any good? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:08 · Score: 0

Tell me about it. I eventually scrapped my whole system and went with an Intel system (replaced the Chip and mobo). The dang thing just kept crashing. 3 months later, and not a single crash.
Re:Is is any good? by JoeCommodore · 2003-07-09 13:01 · Score: 1

It's O.K....
The Cyrix C3 (the processor) is a wannabe 686 without the full instruction set, so you have to do a special step in the install of Linux (I learned that on Mandrake) in order to keep it from running (or should I say locking up) with the 686 version.
I've also read speed is about 60% of PIII, so the ultimate cost is in the speed/performnce.
But for a sub $200 PC (which I got that had the VIA C3, with CD, 128MB, and 20GB HD) it was within my cheapskate price range. (=))

--
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Re:Is is any good? by Flywheel · 2003-07-10 00:57 · Score: 1

Why is everybody calling the WinChip for Cyrix ??

--
Live long and prosper...

Re:21164 Alpha PDA by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:01 · Score: 0

You, sir, are an asshat.

Neither does... by siskbc · 2003-07-09 11:07 · Score: 4, Funny

...an abacus, but I'm not going to use one in an $800 machine.

--

-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

Re:Neither does... by sleeper0 · 2003-07-09 12:55 · Score: 5, Insightful

I understand that this laptop mentioned doesnt require active cooling, but as it seems everyone is focusing on wow an $800 linux laptop I went to go see what $800 could buy you at dell..

2ghz celeron 20gb hd 256mb ram 14" screen... for $749

While i haven't ever owned one of these i've not had a problem getting linux on dell laptops in the past. If you are looking for an inexpensive laptop to run linux it seems to me you could do a lot better than a very underpowered core processor such as the via.
Re:Neither does... by Kai_MH · 2003-07-09 13:02 · Score: 1

The Via does use less power than a Celeron, but that is a good deal, too.
Re:Neither does... by ysyi · 2003-07-09 14:03 · Score: 5, Funny

It's not a "sub-notebook". The Dell you mentioned weighs about 2.5 times as much (2.9 vs 7.22). Well, the point I'm trying to make is: CAN YOU IMAGINE A BEOWULF CLUSTER OF THESE?!@#?! WELL, CAN YOU?!
*ahem*
Don't have too nice a day.
Re:Neither does... by O.M.A.C. · 2003-07-10 01:08 · Score: 0

I did. But instead of (Score: 3, Funny), I got (Score: -1, Troll), which only reinforces my initial impression that moderators have noggins about as powerful as the cheesy VIA CPU.

--
/* It's amazing the damage someone with a stunted sense of humor and mod points can do to your karma. */

Re:Um by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:08 · Score: 0

Um yourself.

You can think up comments yourself like the one you just posted, but don't bother us with it either.

Point made?

Not Fast Enough for high-def video by heli0 · 2003-07-09 11:11 · Score: 1

It might be able to handle low resolution video, but I doubt it could play most of these: High Definition Content Showcase

--
Whenever the offence inspires less horror than the punishment, the rigour of penal law is obliged to give way...

Why Lindows? by Hatta · 2003-07-09 11:11 · Score: 1

Why can't I get a laptop with Debian preinstalled? Why bother with linux if you're just going to make it look and act like windows?

--
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!

Re:Why Lindows? by nossid · 2003-07-09 11:29 · Score: 1

Is anyone in the slashdotcrown actually using the preinstalled OS that comes with new computers? I for one clean the system completly the minute it gets power for the first time. I want to be in control and frankly I don't trust anyone else to do the install.
Re:Why Lindows? by steveha · 2003-07-09 11:39 · Score: 4, Informative

Lindows is based on Debian. As far as I know, you should have no problem taking a Lindows notebook, removing all the packages that contain the strings "lindows" or "xandros", editing sources.list to point to your favorite Debian mirror, and doing apt-get dist-upgrade.

steveha

--
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely

Spoiled Much? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:13 · Score: 0

I hate to say this, but I don't know ANYONE who's parents ever bought them a laptop or pc. They have to buy it themselves. And I'm from a pretty nice neighborhood.

If little Johnny wants a laptop, tell him to get a job. Then let him see how he wants to spend his money... a system that can play games or a brick that can play tux.

Re:Spoiled Much? by jeffkjo1 · 2003-07-09 12:31 · Score: 1

You just don't live in the right neighboorhood... Kids with computers, and kids with cars... see them all the time. And we aren't talking shit box Honda's.... these are some nice cars.... and there's no way all of them are drug dealers.

Mac on Antaur page? by mistermoonlight · 2003-07-09 11:15 · Score: 1

Look a little further down this page.

I love when they use stock photos with Macs in them for companies selling x86 products. It's like the group that does advertising/site design can't remember that not everyone uses Macs (or it's not important to them).

Don't get me wrong, I prefer Macs and I used to troubleshoot them for an ad agency. It was amusing when they would do ads for PCs and ask to take photos of Macs & their parts.

Re:Mac on Antaur page? by soliaus · 2003-07-09 20:31 · Score: 1

Im not so sure thats a mac. I remember seeing an x86 based laptop somewhere that looked exactly like a powerbook when opened. I have noticed that people do that all the time though, and usually causes me great laughter. I remember once microsoft did this in one of their ads. I have yet to laugh as hard as I did at that moment. ----- God?

--
Speaking at Defcon 12 - Credit Card Networks Revisted: Pen
Re:Mac on Antaur page? by mistermoonlight · 2003-07-10 02:56 · Score: 1

I was tempted to reply, just beating a dead horse.

The closed laptop looks like a PowerBook 1400/2400/3400/5300. They all have the same form factor.

I thought the best was when MS had a page up describing Xbox design. They have a picture of one of the designers at work on a Macintosh. Priceless. It was posted somewhere on slashdot a while ago.
Re:Mac on Antaur page? by bhtooefr · 2003-07-11 07:37 · Score: 1

The one next to Non-stop mobility? That's an apple logo.

I remember all of the catalogs for laptop briefcases/desks/accessories/etc. a few years ago would use an unbranded dark grey laptop that looked EXACTLY like a PowerBook 180. I should know. I once had one. I celebrated (well, almost, as it was my only laptop) when it broke down for good ($300 repairs, laptop was worth $200, you get the picture...)

Nice for the U.S., even better for the rest by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

The C3/Antaur may be nive for the US market, but it may be even better for the rest of the world. Because all other x86 manufacturer are US companies (Intel, AMD, Transmeta). Letting a single country control the 99% of all PC CPUs does not feel much better than Microsoft&Apple controlling >95% of all PC OSs. If the US wants to hurt other economies they just need to raise prices for CPUs - or maybe refuse to sell them at all. The C3/Antaur makes the rest of the world depend less on the US.

Re:Nice for the U.S., even better for the rest by Asacarny · 2003-07-09 17:04 · Score: 1

Can you name a single time that the US has placed export tariffs on its processors? Because "The US" (it is all one big organization, right?) really wants to sell fewer processors. Because that would hurt other economies.
It's nice to see CPU producers diversifying, but can we skip the anti-American bullshit?
Re:Nice for the U.S., even better for the rest by kinnell · 2003-07-09 22:13 · Score: 1

Letting a single country control the 99% of all PC CPUs does not feel much better than Microsoft&Apple controlling >95% of all PC OSs
I wouldn't worry - the growth in linux will probably create a feasible market for ARM based PCs like the Iyonix.

--
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
Re:Nice for the U.S., even better for the rest by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-10 01:55 · Score: 0

Question: would the USA want to base their whole computing infrastructure on CPUs that are manufactured and controlled by another country?

Right now the US is so protective that companies from other countries have problems with entering the US telecommunication market (see T-Mobile) or media (see Murdoch who became a US citizen before he could start to expand his media empire into the US). And 99% of all PC hardware is a much more critical issue than maybe 20% of the telecommunication market...
Re:Nice for the U.S., even better for the rest by bhtooefr · 2003-07-11 07:41 · Score: 1

So THAT'S where Acorn went... And, yes, even though I live in the US, I know what the Acorn is...

Re:Why buy one of those? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:15 · Score: 0

Your laptop is tEh suX0r. Your "laptop" fails it. I vomit in the general direction of your so called "laptop"

n0n-w00t

And it is actually well supported! by Fefe · 2003-07-09 11:17 · Score: 4, Informative

Via is not as anal as Intel about their specs. Linux already has working support for the random number generator (their crypto extension), CPU frequency scaling (their SpeedStep/PowerNow equivalent), you aren't stuck with some proprietary and unsupported Intel wireless chipset, their USB, Firewire, Ethernet and IDE chips are proven technology and well supported by Linux, ...

and I'm told there is even support for their hardware MPEG-2 decoder now in mplayer (haven't actually tried it yet). All in all this is some sweet hardware, and I'd much rather buy Via than Intel chipsets. With Intel chipsets, if something is unsupported, you are basically on your own. In contrast, Via has actually come forward on the mplayer mailing list and asked for people willing to help add support for their MPEG-2 decoder extension. What else could you possible ask for?

Personally, I don't care about 10% chipset performance as long as I know Linux works on the damn thing. Just google for the troubles people are having running Linux on their Centrino notebooks and you will see what I mean.

By the way: I can play full-screen DVD and DivX even on my (older and supposedly much inferior) 933 MHz Ezra C3, with AC3 sound. It's just a question of the correct compiler switches. These CPUs are not as fast as an Athlon or a Pentium M, and I wouldn't want to transcode a DVD to MPEG-4 on them, but they are fast enough to do real work like software development. If these become available in Germany, I'll buy one.

Re:And it is actually well supported! by ElGuapoGolf · 2003-07-09 11:57 · Score: 2, Informative

Well, I don't know if I'd call VIA proven technology.

I know, judging by the sheer number of posts on deja and the results on google, that their IDE chipset gave linux nightmares for ages.

In fact, my UDMA100 capable motherboard will only work at UDMA33 on Linux. If you try to go faster, you'll get massive data corruption.

Check it out... Via IDE Corruption and Linux.
Re:And it is actually well supported! by sacrilicious · 2003-07-09 12:01 · Score: 4, Informative

Via is not as anal as Intel about their specs. Linux already has working support for the random number generator (their crypto extension), CPU frequency scaling (their SpeedStep/PowerNow equivalent), you aren't stuck with some proprietary and unsupported Intel wireless chipset, their USB, Firewire, Ethernet and IDE chips are proven technology and well supported by Linux, ...
Not sure if the following contradicts this or not, but this page at mini-itx.com states (emphasis mine)
The original EPIAs and EPIA Vs are very well supported under most recent kernels (EPIA 5000, EPIA 800, EPIA V5000, EPIA V8000). The EPIA Ms are less well supported (EPIA ME6000, M9000, M10000). Drivers exist in binary format only for MPEG2 acceleration, Sound and USB 2.0. Some distributions will have problems.
Additionally, this thread at viaarena documents what sounds like substantial-sounding hurdles getting linux going on mini-itx.

--
- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
Re:And it is actually well supported! by oscarcar · 2003-07-09 12:03 · Score: 1

Yes, but they are fixed now.

Linux always has trouble with new hardware. That's the biggest drawback to vendors not releasing Linux drivers at the time of hardware release, or specs before then.

As a Linux user, we all know this is the cross we bare.

Oscar
Re:And it is actually well supported! by ElGuapoGolf · 2003-07-09 12:17 · Score: 2, Informative

Is it fixed? I see dates on this going back to 2000, and I know the bug was still present in 2.4.19.

In addition, the fact that it's still limited to UDMA33 seems to scream that it's not fixed.
Re:And it is actually well supported! by Svartalf · 2003-07-09 15:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

The new EPIA-M's will be supported shortly. VIA released source code for the 2D and 3D accelerator drivers that they've developed and work is proceeding to integrate the code into the XFree86 and DRI source trees. From talking with the people there at VIA, they're not going to just give out tech data for the CLE266 to just anybody and everybody, but they are willing to allow select (as in the people actually working on the drivers...) people access to the tech data to fix/extend the driver sources that they've recently provided.

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Re:And it is actually well supported! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 16:03 · Score: 0

If only Linux has data corruption problems on VIA chipsets, this sounds more like a longstanding OS bug or limitation than a VIA problem. From the search results it's not clear why it hasn't been fixed in Linux.
Re:And it is actually well supported! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-10 03:19 · Score: 0

"cross we bear"

Re:Why buy one of those? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:18 · Score: 0

>usability of a well done linux install.

Bwahahahahahahahaha!

"usability" and "Linux" are two words that don't belong together, and that won't change as long as you LinDweebs insist on just copying the Windows UI.

Re:21164 Alpha PDA by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:25 · Score: 0

Asshat: It's knighted.

Everything fine but video... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm sorry, but that laptop only has a savage4 video solution which if anyone has ever used a board based on this chip knows, there is no DRI support, hence no accelerated 3D. Hell, even the older ATI mobility M3/4 has DRI support. That laptop is a useless brick until they upgrade the vid.

Re:Everything fine but video... by C_To · 2003-07-09 12:25 · Score: 1

I agree. I have a P3-550 with a Savage4 video card, and besides the random problems switching back and forth between Xfree and bash, the card just doesn't perform as fast as an ATI Rage Pro even (which is 2 years older, if I'm not mistaken). Not to mention driver and specs for the chipset is lacking, and since S3 doesn't even support driver downloads for the products, I doubt the situation will improve.
Re:Everything fine but video... by reynaert · 2003-07-09 13:01 · Score: 4, Informative

Surprise surprise, Via has just released drivers with support for DRI and all the other goodies... From: Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 11:32:34 -0700 Subject: [Savage40] Better Driver Out There To: savage40 <savage40@probo.probo.com> Reply-To: Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> Return-path: savage40-bounces@probo.com Well, folks, it appears that my Savage driver is now a LONG ways from the state of the art. I am no longer "da man". Unbeknownst to me, VIA/S3 have been quietly bulking up their snapshot of the Savage driver. Recently, they were persuaded to release their driver to the world in source form: http://www.linux.org.uk/~alan/S3.zip I have not tried to compile this yet, but based on a quick perusal of the source code, it looks like it: * Supports all of the Savage chips * Supports video4linux for videoport/zoomvideo * Supports the Chrontel TV part on ProSavageDDR motherboards * Supports MPEG motion compensation acceleration (XvMC) and (drum roll, please): * Supports DRI and OpenGL They have made so many changes that it is almost impossible for me to determine whether all of my recent fixes are in their code, but given the thoroughness I see in other places, I suspect that they are. So, if you have the inclination and ability to build from source, it would be well worth your trouble to give this a try. If you do build binaries for either 4.2.0 or 4.3.0, let me know and I will announce it to this list. -- - Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

hardware divx/dvd saves battery power. by aoteoroa · 2003-07-09 11:27 · Score: 4, Interesting

The more efficient cpu, and hardware divx allows laptops to be created with smaller batteries, and since batteries are one of the heaviest components this equates to much lighter laptop designs.

blockquote from their site:

With the workload distributed across the whole platform, rather than being concentrated on the processor, the VIA Antaur processor has to do less work, saving battery life while delivering smooth 30 frames per second DVD playback.

Stupid question? "Laptop motherboard formfactors"? by NotQuiteReal · 2003-07-09 11:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

Are there "standard" motherboard form factors for laptops as there are for desktops?

I mean, what good is a laptop motherboard if it won't fit in some random "obsolete" laptop case?

Seems like there are plenty of small "real" motherboards if you want something standard, that works.

Not a troll, really curious.

--
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.

$800! by rindeee · 2003-07-09 11:29 · Score: 4, Interesting

I can buy a Mobile Celeron 1.2GHz laptop with USB2, CD-RW/DVD-ROM, 12.x" screen, 256MB, 25GB, with WindowsXP Home pre-installed for $799 at my local Sam's Club. Whatever VIA does better cost about half what's out there now (and it easily could). A unit equipped similar to the one above with everything VIA puts on a mobo with no OS installed for about $500 would be reasonable me thinks.

Re:$800! by parkanoid · 2003-07-09 12:45 · Score: 0, Troll

And how much does it weight? Even the current Via is under 3 pounds. I would much rather go with a light and thin (just look at the pictures) sub-notebook with a slightly underpowered processor (and, mind you, Via has improved a lot in performance) that fits into my backpack, rather than a 7-pound lumbering monster that deep-fries your lap. And Celeron is a sucky processor, too.
Re:$800! by rindeee · 2003-07-09 13:05 · Score: 1

Ummmm...it's VERY small and light. And runs cool. And while I like the new VIA systems (I have a 10000 board in a car based system and love it), the Cel 1.2GHz is certainly not a bad chip.

For the record it's Dimensions: 10.6" x 9.6" x 1.3" & 4 pounds.
Re:$800! by fliplap · 2003-07-09 13:12 · Score: 1

Thats another 1.1lbs on top of the VIA based solution, might not sound like much now, but it is. I went from a 4.6lb laptop to a 3.6 and man did I see the difference just carrying the thing around campus.

Though the Celeron offers much more performace than the VIA, depends on your priorities. Heck, I hate carrying stuff so much I really just bring my Zaurus now. Btw, would you like to link us to this notebook? I'm sure someone would be interested.
Re:$800! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 13:21 · Score: 0

http://www.samsclub.com/eclub/main_shopping.jsp?mt =a&n=0&BV_SessionID=_SC_1686380251.1057799942_CS_& BV_EngineID=ccdhadcikkglggjcfkfcfkjdgoodflf.0&coe= 0&oidPath=0%3a-23542%3a-29241%3a-29244%3a70480 0
Re:$800! by Ian+Bicking · 2003-07-09 13:57 · Score: 1

Not that I'm discounting the importance of that 1.1 pounds, but I must say that losing 1.1 pounds off your body isn't that hard, or heck, 1.1 pounds off the clothing you wear. If it's just about carrying things around, 1.1 pounds isn't much. If there's an advantage, I have a feeling it's in ease of handling the computer more than the carrying.
Re:$800! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 16:21 · Score: 0

Useless link: "Sorry, your session has expired."
Re:$800! by parkanoid · 2003-07-10 15:17 · Score: 1

I realize that I was speaking without knowing the complete specifications of the system in question, so I was not exactly accurate, but how exactly does one perfieve that as a troll? The celeron does, indeed suck.
Re:$800! by fliplap · 2003-07-11 15:52 · Score: 1

Losing 1.1lb of total body weight or 1.1lbs of clothing is a lot different from losing a 1.1lb weight hanging on a strap on your shoulder when you're carrying it around all day.
Its all about how the weight is distributed. Since 1.1lbs of clothes is distributed across a fairly large area of your body you don't notice it as much, likely with body weight.
For another example, see magicians lying on beds of nails. The performers weight is distributed across all the nails. Whereas if all his weight were concentrated on one nail, it would go right thru him.

Re:FROSTED PISS POSTS! by luckybob83 · 2003-07-09 11:30 · Score: 0, Offtopic

someone nuke this post (GNAA)

--
If there is nothing left worth living, what are you willing to die for?

Yes, it is! by Fefe · 2003-07-09 11:30 · Score: 5, Interesting

Try running Linux 2.5 on an nForce. What, no network driver? Well, who needs one of those these days, right? Or even try running *BSD!

I own an nvidia graphics card and am happy with it because some lunatics ported the nvidia driver to the 2.5 kernels. But the nforce users are pretty much lost.

Intel chipsets tend to be well supported as well, but let me mention these: "Winmodem" and "Centrino Wiress LAN". Good luck running OpenBSD on one of those. Apart from that, Intel chipsets are expensive and historically never performed well, especially on notebooks.

If I had to buy a new computer tomorrow, I would only even consider VIA and SiS. Both chipset companies are usually well supported by Linux and BSD, and their hardware is supported as soon as it is on the market. With Intel, you usually have to wait a few years until the hardware is obsolete and then Intel will release some driver under some non-GPL license (see the e100 driver for Linux, which was only recently released as GPL).

VIA and SiS may not be the highest performance chipsets around, but they work well, have absolutely no stability issues (except maybe under Windows) and are well supported. And "well supported" outweighs anything else anyway. I'm too old to run around in circles around nvidia or Intel, begging for even a binary only driver to get my machine to work at all.

Re:Yes, it is! by cgleba · 2003-07-09 14:07 · Score: 1

Just don't enable the IO-APIC in any VIA chipset regardless of OS and you are good. For some odd reason under Linux and Windows the IO-APIC causes completely random instability.
Re:Yes, it is! by metamatic · 2003-07-10 01:45 · Score: 1

APIC hoses USB on nForce motherboards too. (Just found that out last week, upgrading my parents to a new Linux box to replace their broken Windows machine.)

--
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak

Suggestions for VIA by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:35 · Score: 1, Interesting

Detatchable video display

a. upgrade the cpu part without buying a new LCD
b. upgrade the LCD without buying a new CPU
c. sell a new system with a fast cpu and low resolution monitor to keep costs down
d. sell a new system with a slow cpu and high resolution monitor to keep costs down

And a must, get the price down to
1. cost of lcd
2. cost of cpu + motherboard
3. plus $75 or less

Get the cost to $500.00 or less.

Re:Suggestions for VIA by Scaba · 2003-07-09 19:04 · Score: 1

That $1500 profit is almost completely eaten by taxes and overhead.

Then I guess it's not really profit, huh?
Re:Suggestions for VIA by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-10 04:21 · Score: 0

In the links, I'm not seeing any mention of Via having a laptop nor a laptop motherboard. The links only show info about a Via processor chip. Your suggestions are only relevant to a company which is assembling and selling a laptop.
To companies making laptops, I'll repeat an old suggestion: Make a standard laptop case which can hold several common types of components. In the same way the PC / ISA / slot design allowed people to combine different components in the same case, this would allow people to have a system which fits their needs. Several LCD bezels would allow choice of the size of screen. Bays which can hold battery, disk, floppy, CD, DVD would allow peripheral choices (including a no-battery system if someone doesn't need one). A USB connection to the bay would also allow USB peripherals in a bay (such as a camera on a gooseneck which can be pushed into the box when not needed). Motherboard makers could sell as they presently do to the PC case market: upgrades, special features such as fast graphics, multiple audio, multiple IDE interfaces, RAID, etc.

in unrelated news... by 0x12d3 · 2003-07-09 11:37 · Score: 0, Offtopic

certain sites have noticed increase traffic. All your WEP (abtu).

yuo = teh gay by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:46 · Score: 0

mac fag

FOR ME TO POOP ON! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:47 · Score: 0

plop!

lick it! lick it good!

Re:21164 Alpha PDA by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:50 · Score: 0

I left it that way to troll you again. Only stupid fish l3rn t0 r3ply t0 int3nt10nal sp3ll1ng err0rs.

M4by J00 sh00d 34t sh1t.

yuo = teh feg by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:51 · Score: 0

apple homo

Re:21164 Alpha PDA by eclectro · 2003-07-09 11:54 · Score: 1

Right. Too bad that it would be too hot to hold on to and have a battery lifetime of about 10 minutes.

--
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"

Check out my site by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 11:55 · Score: 0

You'll soon learn to hate americans and their fat fucking asses. They're working on taking over japan and most of europe, but they just aren't saying it in public. My friends and family will believe me when it happens!

-Troed

Transistor Circuits, not Laptop processor by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 12:00 · Score: 0

I just finished RTFA and found no data on buying a Laptop processor, somthing I would use...

I did not find information on Laptop processors, just the transistor circuits used to construct them.

Re:Only one problem with that motherboard by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 12:00 · Score: 0

are you taking pictures of it?

Cooling and heat dissipation engineering by Chad+E+Dirks · 2003-07-09 12:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think you will face significant problems in the areas of heat dissipation and general cooling.

From what have seen, many retail laptops seem to use custom heat dissipation schemes. I think we can feel pretty certain that work has been put into these custom schemes by professional engineer-types.

I also wonder whether you will be able to purchase some of the components and materials used in these schemes for your own use from companies which supply them, rather than having to buy in bulk. They may simply not be interested in doing busy with you, because it would not be worth their time financially.

While I think it would be quite fun to have, for example, an aluminum or titanium (non-Apple!) laptop case, I wouldn't be willing to risk frying a any motherboards, harddrives, and CPUs while trying to engineer a sufficient heat dissipation and cooling scheme - if I even ever could do so.

If you or anyone else know of solutions to these problems, or know that they are not the problems they seem to be, I am interested.

"if they added a hardware DivX decoder" by UrGeek · 2003-07-09 12:36 · Score: 1

Yeah, right, but which one????

Re:"if they added a hardware DivX decoder" by satterth · 2003-07-09 13:49 · Score: 1

The newest one with all the ads.

--
Being called a dork on Slashdot must be like being called the retard in special ed.

Resolution overkill by Goonie · 2003-07-09 12:37 · Score: 1

I can't find the specs on the site, but I very much doubt that this system can output video at anywhere near 1920x1080 anyway.

In any case, is there anywhere except off a HDTV broadcast or demos like that one you have pointed to where you can actually obtain video at that high a resolution?

--

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)

Video card drivers by vivek7006 · 2003-07-09 12:53 · Score: 1, Offtopic

I have been observing that most of the notebooks dont use Nvidia graphic cards. Instead they prefer using Radeon mobile or some cheaper on-board cards. This is problem for me, because I am looking to buy a notebook on which I will install linux. Nvidia has fantastic linux drivers, so I wont have to worry about hardware 3D acceleration, if I buy a notebook with Nvidia graphic card. But I just dont see any notebooks in the market with Nvidia graphic cards.

How does Radeon behave under linux in notebooks? . How is the 3D acceleration in mobile Radeon 8500+ ? Are the opensource drivers good for full screen DVD playbacks? (I usually test hardware acceleration by playing TuxRacer)

Re:Video card drivers by vranash · 2003-07-09 17:45 · Score: 1

I don't know where you're looking but All Sharp and Toshiba laptops I've see at Fry's (www.outpost.com) have nvidia geforce2go or whatever it's called chipsets in them.

Furthermore I've got an HP ze5300, and it's not REALLY a Radeon Mobility 9000, it's the IGP 340 set to 64 megs of video ram by default. And it's a *DOG* under XP. 60 fps max in Q3A and 10 at 10x7 in UT2K3.

Oh, and the IGP agpgart isn't finished, and there appear to be some other issues before having DRI support working regardless.

Joy is definitely not ATI ;p

P.S. says this from said laptop.

-- vranash

Not a very good deal by frovingslosh · 2003-07-09 12:53 · Score: 4, Informative

Glad to see notebooks focusing on Linux, but I don't see this as a particularly good deal in the current market. To support that statement, this spring I bought an HP notebook for $850 after rebates (and I got a load of other free stuff after rebates with it including an inkjet printer and a wireless pcmcia card). I've since seen that same computer and a slighter faster HP model from the same family for $799 (without the free add-ons). Here's a comparison between the two systems:

HP notebook has a 15 inch screen, VIA a 12.1 display (both have the same max resolution).
HP notebook has an Athlon XP 1.8 (1.5 gig clock frequency) cpu, the VIA notebook has a much more limited VIA C3 933mhz cpu.
The HP uses PC2100 notebook memory and supports up to 1 gig. The VIA uses PC133 memory and supports up to 768 meg. Both come with 256 meg standard.
The HP came with a 30 gig hard drive, the VIA comes with a 20 gig drive.
The HP uses an ATI video chip and can share up to 64 memory. The VIA uses a Savage video chip that can share 32 meg.
The HP came with a combo DVD reader/CD-RW writer; the VIA lists the CD drive as optional!
I'll give credit to the VIA in that it has USB 2 and firewire; the model of HP notebook I'm using does not have firewire (it is an option) and as far as I know USB 2 is not available (it has USB 1.1, 2 outlets).
Also to the VIA's credit is that it has a compact flash slot as well as a PCMCIA slot, the HP has only PCMCIA.
Both have a LAN connector, but additionally the HP has a built in modem (handy on a notebook when you travel) and SVGA video out (as well as the normal mouse and VGA out porrts). The VIA has no mention of a modem or a video out connector.
HP also threw in a free (after rebate) USB floppy drive, neither system comes with a floppy.

The VIA is much lighter, so if you're looking for a light notebook rather than a PDA it might be a good choice, but as a general notebook you can get a lot more of a notebook than this even after paying the Microsoft tax (the HP comes with XP home). The HP does support Linux just fine; I use Knoppix with it all the time. Only conflict I've seen is with the free wireless PCMCIA card that was thrown in the deal, and the VIA doesn't come with wireless hardware, so if you get a wireless pcmcia card that will work with Linux on the VIA it will likely work on the HP as well.

So it's good to hear that people are offering Linux notebooks, but I would much rather see HP offer their notebooks with Linux or no OS at all and take what they give Microsoft off the price. Just because VIA is offering a notebook with Linux does not make it a good deal.

--
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.

Re:Not a very good deal by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 13:41 · Score: 0

I too have an HP laptop (ze5170) that is is bigger and better (speed wise) than an Averatec laptop.

The problem is HP likes to invent their own standards which leads to problems in linux. Both laptops are dual booted with WinXP and Linux (Mandrake). Only the cheaper Averatec can properly shutdown right, manage the battery life, and use wireless PCMCIA nics. The HP has a slightly altered ACMP which breaks all support for power management under linux. And these are only some of the problems with the HP.

My point is that, oddly enough, cheaper laptops tend to support standards MUCH better.
Re:Not a very good deal by Part`A · 2003-07-12 02:39 · Score: 1

Cheaper laptops have to follow standard I guess as they can't ask anyone to put special effort into making sure their software works for them.

800$ inexpensive? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 12:56 · Score: 0

In my mind, laptops that sell new for more than 500$, are a rip off. With all this embedded technology, I'm still waiting for the one that comes free in my cereal boxes! I'd like to see a standalone embedded linux computer that fits inside your keyboard(no shit)with onboard chipsets for everything(sound, video, cdrw), that sells for around 269$!

Then again, i'm still waiting for my damn Jetson mobile, that runs on water!

These damn coporations make progress so damn slow, I often wonder if the meaning of a "consumer market" isn't a market in which consumers get it where the sun don't shine; Got to think about having the ability to sell shit to you again, cannot make products too good, or use stadardized embedded hardware so the freecoders don't put us all out of business.

AMD? by phorm · 2003-07-09 13:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

Not trying to troll, but we mention a lot of Via VS Intel here, how about AMD?

I've never been a big Intel fan to begin with, but how does the VIA chipset and Linux support stack up against AMD? How friendly are they to open-source in comparison?

A perverted rackmount cluster by ziegast · 2003-07-09 13:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

Just a thought for those who like to build sick beowulf clusters out of white box PCs...

If you stack the laptops closed side by side, you can fit 20 of them in a width of 19". If the depth of the rack is 30", you can fit 20 on one side and 20 on another. The height would be 5 rack units, but you'd probably need 1U for power/network cabling. You'd also probably want a 1U 48-port ethernet switch and a 1U shelf for a total of 7U. Each laptop comes with its own UPS. Each laptop - sans hard drive - would probably suck about 20W while on - and 15W when in powersave mode. With 40 laptops, that's 6 rack units of 800W with 40GHz of processing power for $32000.

Each box would boot off of a solid state disk (8MB compactflash or 16MB USB thumb drive) with enough smarts to join the cluster.

Power distribution would be the only real challenge, perhaps some parallel DC bus that all laptops suck 12V off of.

Ok, enough of that.

Personally, this could be my next laptop. I've always looked to Transmeta for long-running laptops, but they've always been to consumery/trendy/expensive for me to consider.

Re:First by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 13:18 · Score: 0

Quit that jibba-jabba fool!

What about Dell? by RadioheadKid · 2003-07-09 15:20 · Score: 1

Why is this such a big deal, when Dell has been selling a laptop for under $800 for a while in one offer or another. Like this one.

--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson

Re:What about Dell? by soliaus · 2003-07-09 20:40 · Score: 2, Informative

If you read above, the problem is weight. A comparable sub-notebook that weighs 2.9 pounds is extremely expensive. And yes, weight matters! ----------------- God, is that you?

--
Speaking at Defcon 12 - Credit Card Networks Revisted: Pen

Yes and no... by Svartalf · 2003-07-09 16:01 · Score: 1

It'll handle decode of MPEG4/DiVX streams adequately - the hardware MPEG2 is there to give the CPU a leg up so that it can do other tasks as well (think streaming MPEG2 combined with a web surf session or something similar going on...).

--
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas

Because BSD is dying, stupid! by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 16:26 · Score: 0

It's a fact.

Re:Because BSD is dying, stupid! by nutznboltz · 2003-07-10 16:04 · Score: 1

Then explain this

Plus this: http://www.bsd-laptop.org/

Dumbass contributor, turn in your geek card by Anonymous Coward · 2003-07-09 18:18 · Score: 0

Christ, if you're going to submit a story (and this goes to the submitter, not the parent of this post) at least be smart enough to know what you're contributing.

Antaur is a mobile CPU, NOT a motherboard. How dumb do you have to be not to realize that? I can't believe I have to tell a contributor to RTFA, his OWN FA.

Buggy via C3's by valen · 2003-07-09 19:55 · Score: 1

Be careful. Don't use these for anything important. In more than one application, I've seen the C3 cause crashes and wierd behaviour on Linux.

Via never release errata, so Linux guys can't work around them *when* they happen.

My experience was on an embedded linux box with a Via motherboard and C3. Wierd crashes very infrequently. Things like SSH sessions crashing when you hit "tab". Login again, same thing happens. Reboot, problem disappeares. SNMPd crashing in the same place (ucd_build_snmp_packet or some such) until a reboot happened. GDB traces of the core dumps showed the instruction pointer jump halfway through multi-byte instructions.

We replaced the chip with an earlier model, no problems. Celeron, no problems. Different motherboard, same problems. YMMV.

When contacted Via said there were no bugs in the C3 chips, that it must be a software problem.

John

Re:History Lesson by soliaus · 2003-07-09 20:47 · Score: 1

Anonymous Coward:
"You sir, are a LinDweeb!!"

Soliaus:
"Yes, I am a LinDweeb"
"But you, AC, are an idiot"
"When I wake up tomorrew, I will be a LinGod."
"But you, will still be an idiot."

Um, slightly modified Winston C.

Its not offtopic in *this* thread...

--
Speaking at Defcon 12 - Credit Card Networks Revisted: Pen

Yes it is well supported by Alan+Cox · 2003-07-09 22:48 · Score: 4, Informative

The audio is working well (except record in OSS) now, and thats sort of my fault because I have the docs to fix it. The CPU power management works a treat. The firewire apparently works, USB definitely works. I've not explored the consumer IR port.
On the X side 2D works (accelerated) as does TV out. VIA sent me a code drop fairly recently which includes XFree 4.2 3D support and kernel side DRI modules, as well as further Xv overlay (but not the mpeg2 engine). Testing that hit a problem on 1600x1200 but once that is sorted it'll get pushed upstream.
The 3D needs a couple of people with the time to work through the Mesa changes from XFree4.2->4.3 and update the 3D driver code to make it work again. (or use Xfree 4.2 8))

The 3D stuff is all in the DRI project CVS for the interested, as is the savage 3D stuff they released at the same time - although that also needs further work.

Alan

What about a laptop with SiS 550 ? by mnmn · 2003-07-10 02:15 · Score: 1

They also have a SiS 550 SoC which is a processor + chipset, basically an entire mobo and processor in one chip at $35 a piece. Add 128mb ram, a cheap 10GB seagate hdd and an 800x600 LCD, and you have around $200 laptop. Such a beast would work well with KDE and Linux and would sell well.

I know I'll buy at least two of em.

--
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky

But of course it will have a VIA chipset... by mwood · 2003-07-10 02:37 · Score: 1

...which means it won't run right with Linux.

bang for the buck? by w3weasel · 2003-07-10 02:54 · Score: 1

This is good news, and cheaper products are good for the consumer since it pulls the price down on higher end products. As for 'bang for the buck' perfomance...
A VIA processor is a viable chip, but for just a bit more you can get a lot more horsepower. A new iBook can be had for $999, and a used one is substantially cheaper. Arguably the most bang for the buck in a portable factor, and if you must have Linux rather than OSX, GENTOO or Yellowdog would fit the bill perfectly.
If you must have x86, a quick look at celron and atlon based notebooks on Pricewatch.com will turn up identical prices to this unit, and they omit the MS tax as well.

I will admit that I havent seen the actual performance breakdowns for the VIA processors, but have read brief reviews and have gotten the impression that they are functional, but weak

The ultimate value is still provided by the Abacus (the actual wooden bead thingy)

--

Just as irrigation is the lifeblood of the Southwest, lifeblood is the soup of cannibals. -- Jack Handy

Re:Why buy one of those? by SwollenEgo · 2003-07-14 13:32 · Score: 1

Thank you su much for that deeply insightful, rational and constructive post. And to think, such valuable intellectual output is free... I will wait until I see some benchmarks before I get too excited. After correctness and support, computational heft traded off against reasonable battery consumption will be my criteria for celebration. As per usability, um, I haven't found it necessary to boot Windows anything for a few years now. The money I have not sent to Microsoft I have been able to spend with my ISP, thus providing me the opportunity to search for and read drivel such as the post to which I reply

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VIA Introduces A New Laptop Motherboard

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