The Mozilla Foundation

gemal writes "We're very pleased to announce the creation of the Mozilla Foundation, a non-profit organization that will serve as the new home for mozilla.org. The Mozilla Foundation will continue mozilla.org's work of coordinating the development of the Mozilla codebase. With an independent non-profit as the legal home for Mozilla, we will also promote the distribution and adoption of Mozilla applications and technologies. In addition, we will raise funds to ensure Mozilla's long-term survival." Update: 07/15 21:47 GMT by T : Yablo writes "MozillaZine is running a blurb about how since earlier today, when the Mozilla Foundation was created, AOL has laid off all the Gecko developers. Ex-mozilla.org has a list of the casualties."

Comments

Sayonara

[tomblackwell]

We're pleased to be dumping Mozilla, er, forming the Mozilla Foundation. This money pit, er, worthy cause is something we'd love to see the back of, er support.

Wow

[Plutor]

This is nothing but a Good Thing(TM). Congrats to the Mozilla team on their (apparent) independance. In other news, check out the redesigned web page.

Isn't it ironic that the top cells don't render the way they meant in Mozilla 1.4? They shouldn't be using tables for layout!

Re:Wow

[jeremyds]

From the http://www.mozilla.org source:

@import url("/frontpage/nav4Sucks.css");

This wouldn't happen to be a reference to Netscape Navigator 4, would it?

Re:Wow

[Gerv]

Apologies for the less-than-perfect technical nature of the new website - it was done in a bit of a hurry. Still, looks better than the old one, huh? :-)

invalid HTML.

Hopefully fixed in CVS; waiting for the site to sync.

Gerv
(gerv@mozilla.org)

looks like Moz is getting serious

[The Evil Couch]

The Mozilla Foundation will also promote the distribution and adoption of our flagship applications based on that code. AOL, IBM, Sun Microsystems, Red Hat, and other companies will continue to support Mozilla through the Foundation.

I guess Mozilla's ready to actively try to knock IE down.

Re:looks like Moz is getting serious

[r00k123]

Mozilla will never knock IE down.

Why?

Because I know HUNDREDS of people that refer to IE as "the internet".

If the IE shortcut gets deleted? "My internet is gone."

You can't fight the internet guys...sorry.

-Ben

Re:looks like Moz is getting serious

[autechre]

I guess the question is: If you replaced their shortcut to IE with a shortcut to Mozilla that used the IE icon, would they notice? There are themes for Mozilla which are designed to make it look identical to IE. OK, so they would wonder where all the popops went, but other than that, could someone such as this tell the difference?

(Yes, I know that there are a small percentage of sites out there that are brain-dead and REQUIRE IE, but if my parents never come across them, I'm betting many other people don't either. If you believe Jakob Nielson, users encountering such a site would just go find another one anyway, unless they needed it for work, banking, etc.)

[And no, I didn't trick my parents like that. They're sentient enough that I can explain to them why to use Mozilla instead of IE, and they like it better anyway.]

Re:looks like Moz is getting serious

[forwhomthebelltrolls]

Because I know HUNDREDS of people that refer to IE as "the internet".

If the IE shortcut gets deleted? "My internet is gone."

I've had Mozilla Firebird as my default browser on my home windows box since the first alpha release of Phoenix. At this time I removed the IE shortcut from my wife's desktop and replaced it with a Phoenix shortcut and then told her to use that for web access in the future.

Recently, I had to reinstall the box, and forgot to replace her shortcut, and guess what... She said "My interet is gone". So what you say is true, but it doesn't just apply to IE.

FWIW: I told my wife to use IE until I got round to fixing the shortcut, she later complained that IE was not as good as the "normal internet" she was used to using.

Read the f***ing article!

[jonasj]

From http://www.mozilla.org/press/mozilla-foundation.ht ml:

"To help launch the new organization, America Online has pledged $2 million in cash to the Mozilla Foundation over the next two years. AOL will also contribute additional resources through equipment, domain names and trademarks, and related intellectual property, as well as providing some transitional assistance for key personnel as they move into the new organization."

Re:Read the f***ing article!

[pergamon]

Very nice.

As much as we might hate AOL for littering the physical world with their signup CDs and the virtual world with their users, one has to give them props for continuing to support Mozilla.

Granted, they mainly have used Mozilla as a barganing chip to get a deal with MS, but I suspect that isn't a long term situation anyway.

Re:Read the f***ing article!

[gokubi]

$2 million in cash

Hope they don't blow it all on a Superbowl ad.

Two Questions:

[Skyshadow]

I have two questions:

1. Why should I give money to Mozilla when I don't give money to and other open-source software I use? Why do they need it? What will they use it for?
2. Would said contribution be tax-deductible (not all non-profit donations are)?

Unfortunately for them, they're competing for my donated dollar against the EFF, the ACLU and (this year) whoever tries to unseat George Bush Jr. They need to make a lot better case for themselves if they're going to warrent a piece of that pie...

Re:Two Questions:

[The Evil Couch]

if you donate $1,000 or more, you get a Mozilla Dinosaur plushie doll.

Re:Two Questions:

[bytesmythe]

A better question would be:
"Why don't you give to the other open-source software projects?"

I know it seems like a pain, but pick a few of your favorites (maybe 3 to 5) and start setting aside a little money. Collect your spare change, or sell something on eBay, or whatever. Then donate 5 to 10 bucks to each of the projects.

I would expect you'd want to feel reasonably certain the developers will put the money to good use (buying helpful books or equipment), rather than dipping into the project fund to buy pizza and beer. Still, I imagine that once you've selected some worthy projects and sent them a little money it will make you feel good to have helped, and maybe you'll even be more likely to do it again in the future.

Time for some advertising

[SpaceRook]

I think Mozilla needs some PR people. I was watching C-SPAN the other day and the issue was spam. Lots of callers were complaining about pop-up windows as well. I really wanted to tell them about Mozilla, but it was a taped show :(

Anyway, there is a lot of frustration out there and the Mozilla people really need to get the word out that they have a competitive product. Place some ads in the weekly magazines, some big newspapers, and get a buzz going. Open up a Paypal account that we can donate to so Mozilla can get an ad in the New York Times.

Re:Time for some advertising

[bartdecrem]

We just launched Mozilla Marketing and a marketing mailing list. So we're going to start marketing Mozilla's products much more proactively. Please join us in this effort by joining the new marketing mailing list.

That sound you hear..

[Anonymous Coward]

..is the "BSD is dying" guy racing to find the Search and Replace function in his text editor.

Re:So, no more AOL/Netscape support?

[iceT]

Think of it this way:

1) Mozilla development and advocacy becomes a non-profit organization.

2) AOL/Time Warner contributes all the same money that they used to contribute.

3) AOL/Time Warner now gets to write off the contribution because it's to a non-profit organization.

$2M kiss-off

[davidflanagan]

The new foundation gets $2M over 2 years from AOL. Plus, Mitch Kapor kicks in $300K and becomes chair of the foundation. AOL also continues to supply infrastruture and "domain names". (How generous!)

I'd say AOL wants to be rid of Mozilla. I wonder where this leaves Netscape? Is Netscape 7.1 the last browser release from this former browser company?

Re:the big mo

[Zurk]

its sluggish because the event loop in mozilla which handles PREvents isnt that hot. with applets and javascript it tends to send invalid events to objects which dont exist and corrupt the stack. well known problem, no fix.
the event handling code probably needs a good overhaul. see my bug for more info :
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211 436

particularly this comment by a sun engineer :

http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2114 36 #c19

the code in my bug can demonstrate it -- just download and run the class/html file and click ok to corrupt your event Q/stack. may crash the browser or may just hang it.

A Service You Could Offer

[johnnyb]

One thing that the Mozilla Foundation could do to raise money is set up a "Cobrand Support Center" where people can contract them to create and support branded versions of Mozilla.

If the price were not too high, I imagine a lot of technology companies could impress their users with a branded web browser that's better than Internet Explorer.

"As a complimentary service to our customers, we offer them the SuperTechnologyCompany Web Browser which has features that prevent spam and popups..."

Contributions not yet tax-deductible.

[David Hume]

2. Would said contribution be tax-deductible (not all non-profit donations are)?

From http://www.mozillafoundation.org/press/mozilla-fou ndation.html

The Mozilla Foundation has been incorporated as a California public benefit corporation and is seeking to obtain 501(c)(3) status as a non-profit organization.

(emphasis added). Since the Mozilla Foundation is applying for 501(c)(3) status, contributions are not yet tax deductible. Which raises the interesting question, i.e., should 501(c)(3) status be granted? In particular, should contributions by AOL to the Mozilla Foundation be tax deductible when AOL will use any work performed by the "public benefit corporation" in its Netscape product? Is this a way for a for profit corporation to fund research in a tax-deductible way?

Perhaps a counter-argument is that given the license used for Mozilla (I forget which it is; it may be important), *anyone* could use the work... but could anyone use it in for-profit software?

I haven't thought this throught, but it might be an interesting issue.

Not quite as funny as intended.

[markv242]

This may have been modded +5 Funny, but in all honesty it's a very telling/scary story. AOL is shedding Mozilla. Yes, they've chipped in $2M to help run the foundation, but what happens in a few years when the Foundation has A) run out of money, and B) hasn't gotten any significant donations?

Let the "Mozilla is dead" postings start in 3..2..

Re:Not quite as funny as intended.

[sulli]

Companies making their corporate standard browser a free browser and getting a tax write-off by supporting the browser will be prevalent, I think.

Not as prevalent as companies simply using Mozilla and paying zero, however.

Re:Not quite as funny as intended.

[WPIDalamar]

People may not contribute as much money to the foundation, but maybe they'll be more inclined to contribute more code. It's easy to give some IP back to a non profit, it's hard to give IP to AOL.

PayPal ??

[matsh]

So, where can I donate PayPal money to this foundation?

Re:PayPal ??

[Gerv]

So, where can I donate PayPal money to this foundation?

We'll get a PayPal (or similar) link up there as soon as possible. Don't spend the money meantime :-)

Thanks for offering to donate!

Gerv
(gerv@mozilla.org)

Moz better than Safari at the moment

[sulli]

I use both and prefer Mozilla (better features). Safari is ooh-pretty, but Mozilla gives me better control over things, particularly via the PrefBar that one can download at XulPlanet. I love the new "Kill Flash" button.

Re: Support from Microsoft Nemeses

[hendridm]

From the parent:

> what happens in a few years when the Foundation has A) run out of money, and B) hasn't gotten any significant donations?

From the site:

> AOL, IBM, Sun Microsystems, Red Hat, and other companies will continue to support Mozilla through the Foundation.

I wouldn't worry. Me thinks these companies et al will stop supporting Mozilla when Internet Explorer has a user base of <5%. These are big competitors of Microsoft. Either way, if the money dries up, I would be surprised if people still didn't continue to develop Mozilla (even if it's at a slower pace).

There will always be alternatives.

Re:Mozdev?

[mykmelez]

mozdev.org is independent of mozilla.org and always has been, so they should not be affected by this announcement in any way (besides benefiting from any positive press Mozilla receives).

Note that mozdev.org has recently completed a very successful fundraising drive.

But...

[Prince_Ali]

Companies using Mozilla and paying zero will also not be as prevalent as companies using IE and paying zero so it is basically a wash.

Re:free advertising!

[asa]

I've brought this up before, but where's the professional looking attractive banner ad graphics for Mozilla? I'd slap one of those up on my website (I've got pages that attract more than just slash-geeks) and get the word out that way...

I'm not so artistically minded, so I don't want to create it, but I'll certainly display it!

We will be ramping up our marketing efforts over the coming months. In the mean time you could always use plain text and link to http://www.mozilla.org/releases

--Asa

Re: Support from Microsoft Nemeses

[4of12]

AOL, IBM, Sun Microsystems, Red Hat,

Note that these competitors of Microsoft don't have:

• US$4e10 cash reserves
• revenue cows like Windows & Office to bring in money without lifting a finger

AOL has been scrambling to compete with MSN, surviving on razor-thin margins (Time Warner is the bigger, stronger part of the company).

Sun can't afford to develop competitive successors to its UltraSPARC hardware in a timely fashion. Meanwhile, Lintel servers are eating into the UNIX server business, making the market much smaller than it was once (the flip side is that Lintel make Wintel look expensive, even if Wintel is cheaper than Solaris/SPARC). These days, the one reason to go with Sun over Linux on clusters is for HA 64-way high throughput machines connected to SANs. Despite the margins on that class of machine, not everyone needs one, and there are ferocious competitors like IBM, HP and SGI with which to contend.

Red Hat is only now barely getting profitable, mainly selling Linux services. They certainly don't have oodles of money to throw around.

IBM is really the only financially strong player in the whole deck.

Despite my pessimistic tone, I'm a Mozilla (and now Firebird) user and wish the project success. I will continue to be a Mozilla advocate because I want to see open standards on my computer instead of yet another road to getting ruled.

Re: Support from Microsoft Nemeses

[asa]

[...]I would be surprised if people still didn't continue to develop Mozilla (even if it's at a slower pace).

Even slower? Molasses on a cold day comes to mind ;)

I didn't miss the wink but it still sounds like you were agreeing with the "slow" pace of development comment. I don't really think it's very slow. Even just comparing features (including support for emerging web standards) with the popular IE browser, I don't think our development pace is slow.

But beyond just new features, if you look at the actual code change (about 80,000 lines changed in the last year) and the bugs fixed (about 9,000 bugzilla records resolved as fixed in the last year,) it's seems wrong to call that slow.

I think we've been moving at a pretty good clip this last year with the addition of great new features like junk-mail controls, NTLM auth, find as you type, link pre-fetching, download manager, major improvements to usability of killer features like pop-up blocking, and tabbed browsing, much improved look and feel, more complete support for web standards, much better website compatibility and big gains in performance.

If you don't think much has changed or that we're moving too slow, then go download Mozilla 1.0 (from about a year ago) and use it side by side with the latest release, Mozilla 1.4. Compare that to the improvements that Microsoft has made in the last year.

--Asa

Re: Support from Microsoft Nemeses

[Azureflare]

One thing that really surprises me (And I mean REALLY surprises me) is the fact that AOL Time Warner doesn't tout Mozilla more. I mean, if people knew that Firebird had excellent popup blocking and other features IE should have, people would switch in an instant! I moved my whole family over to Firebird, and they love it, even though it's still 0.6! They love the simplicity, and they especially love the popup blocking. They don't use Internet Explorer at all anymore, and I think this will continue, especially since Microsoft is going to wait until Longhorn for the next IE upgrade.

That's another thing; there are many issues with IE, as has been noted by many people (CSS, transparent .png, etc. etc.) not to mention popups. I just can't see why people would choose IE if they knew what firebird offered.

I can't help wondering, if people just got the word out, more people would use mozilla, and thereby mozilla would get more money in it's coffers. If mozilla can get a relatively large user base (Say, 10-20%) then I would hope they wouldn't have a problem getting funds.