Slashdot Mirror
The Wifi Slugfest Over Portland's PGE Park
tomwhore writes "Portland's community wireless networking group, Personal Telco Project (PTP), recently knocked one into the ball park with a new WiFi node. The new node covers the area around and inside of Portland's PGE Ballpark. While free internet access would be welcome by most, PGE Park managers are not happy. They recently cut a deal giving Comcast exclusive rights to do up their networking. 'This is our stadium, and we run the communications for it,' said Chris Metz, a PGE Park spokesman. To find out more about the impact of the PTPs latest home run check out this article in the Oregonian and over at the PTP's website." Let's hope the park also puts a Faraday cage around the whole park to ensure radio silence.
Let's hope I can't use sprint PCS's phone in the park!
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
1. Volunteers enable wireless access at ballpark
2. They put out a news released titled, "PGE Park gets free Wi-Fi thanks to Personal Telco and Moonlight Staffing"
3. PGE Park management (understandably) is concerned that the news release implies their participation in this effort, and this might offend a major park sponsor, Comcast.
4. Comcast replies that they don't care. Life goes on.
They call this a "slugfest?" Yeesh...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Their service will be down most of the time, anyhow.
Let's see what the courts say on this one. I would love the courts to say that it was illegal for an outside provider to broadcast network signals onto your property.
Can anyone else see the ramifications of this?
If they can and do block off the free access on their property only, more power to 'em. Otherwise, they can take a hike.
Best Windows Freeware
I know I always take my laptop with me to the ballpark!
Sometimes we just need to do without technology altogether. Pick up a hotdog and enjoy the game, don't worry about your wireless networking. I sure don't.
Sincerely,
Letter
The first step to the FCC stepping in and regulating Wi-Fi has just been taken. Coperate Amerika must ensure it controls the comunication networks.
Str8Dog
using System.Darkside; public
If 60 people at a ballgame are surfing on laptops, one of them will almost certainly take a foul ball right in the face. Here's a tip - pay attention to the game.
"And this is my boy, Sherman. Speak, Sherman." "Hello." "Good boy."
This is great!
I imagine that this is not actually related to comcast, as the article implies, but rather to the fact that portland is currently trying to get a major league team into the stadium.
The reason I think this might be a problem, is that major league teams have been shying away from portland because of its reputation as a place with high taxes and ultra-left wing views. Major league baseball is just another huge corporate entity, and these kinds of tweaks are exactly what they are afraid of. The portland city government, and pge park don't want the perception that they are out of control, as it will negatively impact MLB's view of Portland.
So I say- GO For it free wireless guys! I don't want to see my taxes raised again for a useless baseball team. Especially when unemployment is almost 10% and our taxes are increasing already!
Cuchullain
"If sharing a thing in no way diminishes it, it is not rightly owned if it is not shared." -St. Augustine
Tell it to the FCC. They control the airwaves in your little stadium, not you.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
The poster writes, "They recently cut a deal giving Comcast exclusive rights to do up their networking," when the article clearly states multiple times that Comcast isn't an issue. Comcast is merely a sponsor of the park. The ballpark manager is being too sensitive to the wording of the PTP's press release which could be read to suggest that PGE park management worked with the PTP to set up the wireless access when in fact it is being provided from a location across the street. The park manager is inventing some sort of conflict where none exists. Be sure to read the article before engaging in knee-jerk bashing of Comcast.
"'This is our stadium, and we run the communications for it,' said Chris Metz, a PGE Park... "
What about cell phone communications?
Or palm pilots and the like?
What about communicating to the opposing team that you prefer them (ie, those cheering for the opposition must sit in section 9)?
Now the last example is quite silly, but what is the difference between wireless internet access and cellphone access? Do they have the legal rights to control such?
This really sounds like a publicity stunt to me. Why? Well, think about it. How cost effective is it to provide WiFi access to a site that is used, at best, a few hours a week? Contrast this to airports, bus stations, Starbucks etc. that are occupied a majority of the hours every day. Yup, sounds like a publicity stunt to me.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Sure sounded good, though, no?
"Fuzzy-Seattle-Populist-WiFi-Free-Node in slugfest! versus Big-Greedy-Sports-Cable-Corporate-Luddites."
Wow! I was getting all set for a Thousand-Post-Pile-On before I read the article.
Damn shame, this reality. Always getting in the way of a good story...
This is kinda like saying "You can only operate our walkie talkies inside our ballpark." Owning the land does not, and should not, give you the exclusive right to say other people can't broadcast their own radio signals from outside the area. WiFi base stations are FCC certified devices and are not specifically limited by where they can (or can't) operate as long as they dont interfere with other devices.
Would the ballpark try to claim that these "rogue" signals are interfering with their own signal? I get 7 wireless connections from my house at any given time, and only 1 is mine. Even if this were to be taken to court, the courts would never be able to say that signals can't overlap.
Oh, wait. We don't have any professional sports in this state (Well, we have the Blazers, but they hardly count).
Culture is more than commerce
We have become such slaves to the dollar that the very specter of affront to a sponsor or corporate backer is reason enough to go after a free, community-driven service.
This isn't about Comcast; this isn't about PGE Park's management. Rather, they're just placeholders for the larger problem. This is about the slow, gentle, comfortable erosion of American values--not the God, family, and apple pie values of tradition, but independence, community, and the common good values of the human spirit.
This is not liberty. This is not happiness. This is voluntary bondage to the almighty dollar. I'm not one to get all uppity about this kind of thing--I'm generally pretty laissez-faire--but it's sad to see this kind of thing. Why, oh why, does my country care more about a dollar than anything else?
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
The headgear will protect him.
obligatory simpsons quote: "I'm rebroadcasting major league baseball with implied oral consent....not express written consent!"
I believe they do. It's their site, they can make the rules. Movie theatres throw people out that use cell phones, and they don't allow people with video cameras in. Their site, their rules. Hell, most ballparks won't even let you bring food or drink into them.
it's an article about a baseball park - "slugfest" is a totally appropriate term - there about 100 years of newspaper subeditors writing headlines with these sorts of punish content - why should electronic media be any different?
and yes this is some sort of device, there are signs saying that cellphone signals are blocked all over the hospital.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
This is another example of a new service that is not yet regulated, and the companies that are regulated are getting hot around the collar over it.
The workers laid off by the cotton loom didn't like it either, but see where they are today.
I'm sorry but the morons that run PGE Park are idiots.
And besides, the city of Portland owns the Park and the group that runs the stadium for the city owes them back rent.
In my mind, since they don't own the stadium, they shouldn't be bitching. It's not like this is going to damage thier hold on the lease. They are doing that without any Wi-Fi signals coming across the fence without Comcast's permission.
Better yet; don't sell anything but baseball and snacks; you wankers.
Exactly. Reading Slashdot is work. Er, at least I charge my employer as if it's work! Why would I want to work when I go to the ballgame? Oh, right! Because baseball is even more boring than the crap I'm supposed to do at work.
How are you going to keep them down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus?
Now fast forward to 2003 with WiFi in ball parks. Imagine not one spotter but 10, or 20, or 30 spotters scattered around the stands all with a laptop and all simultaneously keying in the catcher's signs.
As opposed to what happened to Stallings, I don't think this is cheating. I think anybody who can hit a 90+MPH fast ball deserves to use any means necessary to accomplish this. At least with a WiFi network the visiting team could also place some spotters in the stand.
yeah, now I can finally sue that heavy metal station I've been receiving in my braces since 5th grade....but I don't know what I'd do without my danzig.
pale
If someone opens a node and it extends over the park, the only thing they can do is do an intensive search of everyone coming into the park to make sure they aren't carrying anything that could access the node. I don't think that would go over very well.
First off, PGE is owned by Enron. Portland wants to buy it, but Enron wants to dissect it and sell the assets to pay off debts, and have rate-payers help with the debt. OK, not exactly, but something like that. Second, nobody wants to own PGE Park. It's not profitable. Our weeklies usually have a least one article a month about some poor, old, rich bastard who can't pay the City of Portland for rent. Third, PGE Park lost power not too long ago. This is the park with Portland General Electric in the name! They can't even keep their own power on! Blocking Wi-Fi? It's probably science fiction to them. I agree with a previous poster, this is no slugfest. This is a bloated 600-pound gorilla complaining about someone else's scent covering their foul odor... BTW, Portland itself kicks major yahoo.
Overrated? Few people? Your either stupid, or just have not really looked at the *scene* that hard. First of all, there are many projects what are setting up community waps and wlans. Some of a few mentionable ones are BAWUG and FreeNet.
Nobody cares about starbucks wireless internet access when they can associate with the AP down the street using a pringles can! Even users who dont know how to use external antennas can choose which access point they want to associate with. Which would you pick, the free one down the street, or the pay one at Starbucks/McD's?
As for so few people taking advantage of it, how many people do you think have implemented wireless to cover an apartment complex? Their house? Neighborhood? ALOT. I dont know the numbers, but Have read many, many, many success stories and am constantly doing ap setups for local businesses, as well as consumers.
Another venue you have probably not thought about is the WISP field. There is actually a verry successfull WISP in my city called KeyOn. For dialup proces they offer high speed internet via wireless. Heres the best part: they are not loosing money! People are coming to their service like bees to honey. Whats that say about "few people"? //WTF?!?!?
/root //Yay!
------------------
C:\DOS
Speaking at Defcon 12 - Credit Card Networks Revisted: Pen
RTFA.
The courts aren't going to say anything in this case. Nobody's suing anyone. The only reason anyone is upset is because the owners of PGE Ballpark are "squeamish" about the wording of the Personal Telco Project's press release.
This is the biggest non-story since Skynyrd Guitarist Not Sure About War With Iraq
grep -ri 'should work'
This could actually become a very messy issue.
Assuming very low contention, you can videocast over an 802.11b link. Some guy brings in his shiny new Sony VAIO PCG-TR1A with built-in camera and 802.11b, and starts broadcasting the game from his seat in the stadium. (Yeah, it'll suck, but that won't matter, as we shall shortly see.)
This will piss off a number of people:
They've built for themselves a cozy little relationship that doesn't involve competition or, indeed, people thinking for themselves at all (sit down, shut up, buy the $6.50 hot dogs, oh, and enjoy the game). Expect shrill whining from Entrenched Interests the moment they even suspect anything like this might happen.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Um, no.
You can't *declaratively* limit a legal broadcast originating from off your private property from entering it.
You can, of course, devise technical means of preventing it within your property -- for example, jamming cell phone signals at a movie theater, or the hyperbole-laden Faraday's Cage suggestion.
I'm not sure this has been 100% verified legally -- I could see someone *arguing* that they should be entitled to receive cellular calls anywhere they would normally be able to receive them, but not *winning*, however.
I suppose they could try to get the law (or FCC regulations) changed to limit WiFi hotspots, but there's certainly no such limits in place right now.
And, strictly legal issues aside, global acccess with limited denial seems to be the only sensible way to go about it.
The fact that Comcast ponied up sponsorship in exchange for something 'exclusive' is a matter between them and the stadium. They BOTH should have realized that there's no automatic way to guarantee that exclusivity when it can be superseded by forces beyond their control. You could listen to an FM radio station inside the stadium even if they had a 'stadium station' transmitting locally; access to external WiFi concurrent with specifically-provided on-site access is little different, at the end of the day.
It's not QUITE the same, but you can select among multiple available hotspots just like you can tune to different stations. There's a potential conflict if outside and local both want to use the same frequency, but that's orthagonal to the situation here, IMHO.
When hotspot ranges/capacities are very small, it's a whitelist problem -- you select where to HAVE access. With higher ranges and capacities, you start having to look at like a blacklist problem, choosing where to NOT allow access and not worry about everywhere else.
Xentax
You shouldn't verb words.
Does that mean if I am not allowed to use my cell phone if they have a deal with a different cell provider?
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
Probably the guy with the Videocamera and the P2P connection. I figure that may be what the ballpark is really worried about. A corporate ISP can be told to crack down on illegal prodcasts, but I'm not so sure they would trust PTP to. Or maybe it's just typical management fear of loss of control.
However, a ~real~ baseball fan would bring a wireless-equipped PDA to look up statistics and stuff, so she can tell her friends, "That's the fifth home run Jose Canseco has hit since he's gotten out of jail!".
Imagine if they gave PacBell or whoever it was exclusive rights to the phone network including pay phones and tried to ban cell phones within their park.
On the other hand, we better start on the offensive or we'll lose all these fights. By we, I mean the scientific community. We need the NSF to take on wifi the way they did the original internet, or else it will all be pay as you go and free nodes will be made illegal.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
PGE Park doesn't mind having it, and states how they don't mind it as they have no possition on wifi as Comcast isn't in the market. What PGE Park didn't like how PTP stated, "PGE Park gets Wireless Access thanks to PTP". To anyone who isn't in the free wifi 'know', this sounds like a business deal, and I completly side with PTP on this. The wording/catchphrase/marketing chosen for the announcement is not fair, and I can see why PGE Park has said what they did.
.. If anything the title of this slashdot article should be, "Wifi group PTP puts PGE Park in a bad situation with recent announcement."
PTP kinda put words in PGE Parks mouth, and makes it sound like PGE Park was fully involved. Future problems could be people complaining about wifi access to PGE Park, or any other 'internet' issues. Worst case could be someone can't make a stock sell, loses money, sues PGE Park because of the announcement he knew of "PGE Park gets wifi acces thanks to PTP", judge see's it, yells at PTP, case dropped, and PGE Park gets some bad press. It's not fair to PGE Park.
I personally provide free wifi for my neighborhood and joining the local wifi club soon. Since airspace is shared and not easily seperated there's some things you have to be careful of to make sure bad relations arn't formed in this process, and this is one case to be aware of for the future.. I hope PTP is more careful in the future.
my $.02
Oh yeah... I'd sue Direct TV and ClearChannel for broadcasting shit all over my property. And by shit, I mean shit.
.sig wanted: Must be concise, funny, and display my cleverness.
from here, you're allowed 30dBm of transmit power with a 6 dBi antennae (isotropic) for 802.11b. If they're broadcasting more power than that into the stadium, they're breaking the rules. Given the normal range of 802.11, I doubt they can broadcast into the stadium legally, even if they use a directional antennae to improve efficiency.
Vote for Pedro
This is not the first time the PTP has run into a snag trying to offer free net access. Back a while ago there was a slight problem with the then new Starbucks hotposts at the "heart" of the city.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.s sf ?/xml/story.ssf/html_stand
ard.xsl?/base/front_pa ge/102975810817580.xml
08/19/02
JEFFREY KOSSEFF and ERIC HAND
The world's biggest barista and a grass-roots group are squaring off in a wireless game of chicken at Pioneer Courthouse Square.
On one end stands Starbucks, which this week likely will begin marketing a paid service that lets its customers in Portland's living room connect their laptops wirelessly to the Internet. On the other is Personal Telco, a local group of computer hobbyists, which has provided the same service for free in the square since February.
Sure, there's room on the wireless spectrum for peaceful coexistence. But Starbucks, using wireless carrier T-Mobile, is transmitting its signal on the same channel Personal Telco has used for the past six months. Neither has budged.
The result? Both Starbucks customers and Personal Telco members may face slower speeds on the suddenly crowded channel.
The battle illustrates a growing problem with the increasingly popular technology known as wireless fidelity, or "Wi-Fi." Unlike cell phones, it operates on an unlicensed spectrum, so experts expect such disputes will become more common as demand grows.
Like cordless phones and walkie-talkies, nobody can own Wi-Fi's spectrum, and federal regulators have little authority over it, said Dale Hatfield, former chief of the Federal Communications Commission's Office of Engineering and Technology.
"There's no prior claims; there's no squatter's rights; there's nothing like that," said Hatfield, now a telecommunications professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder. "You both have to try to live with each other. I can't imagine why one wouldn't voluntarily move to one of the other channels that has less interference."
Adam Shand can imagine. The founder of Personal Telco says his group was there first and that in similar disputes nationwide, incumbents have successfully retained their wireless channels.
"If we take the stance that we're the little guy and start hopping around, what happens when there are no channels left?" Shand said.
Representatives of Starbucks and T-Mobile owner VoiceStream said they were unaware of any other wireless Internet presence in the square and had no comment on Personal Telco's objection.
Since late 2000, Personal Telco has persuaded individuals and businesses to donate high-speed Internet connections to its cause -- creating a "cloud" of free wireless access over the Portland area. Using specially designed "wireless ethernet" cards, Web surfers within a block or two of the donors' homes or businesses can tap into the signal.
The group has about 70 Internet access points throughout the Portland area. One was donated by WebCriteria, a Web consultancy whose eighth-floor offices overlook Pioneer Courthouse Square.
As many as six people have surfed the Web at the same time in the square using the WebCriteria link, often receiving connections faster than wired broadband connections, said Nigel Ballard, a
Personal Telco member and owner of wireless consultancy joejava.com.
To connect through Personal Telco, users can type a donor's identification number, available on the group's Web site, www.personaltelco.net. Their computers also can search for the Internet connection. And until recently, they've latched onto Personal Telco's signal in Pioneer Courthouse Square.
Now, they can inadvertently connect to the Starbucks paid service.
Although Starbucks and T-Mobile will likely begin marketing the service this week in the square, Shand said the paid service has been operating for a few weeks. Personal Telco users have reported problems.
"The performance of o
Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap!
Actually, I've used my Palm Pilot at Pac Bell Park for Giants games. They [used to?] let you download a little applet that had todays roster and some basic stats.
For a baseball fan that usually hates buying a [paper] program for that information, it was kind of cool.
Can also be used to get real-time updated scores from other games relevant to the penant chase, etc.
Not to mention a lot of times I was at the game with business clients (expensing the whole time), and may have needed to follow up on an email or something. Sometimes making a business phonecall at a ballgame isn't quite appropriate.
--D
You people saying "why would you want to bring your laptop to a game" aren't getting the point.
What about WiFi PDAs? Great for sending that quick email or text message. What about WiFi cellphones? In order to replace the evil telecommunications giants, we need an IP connection _everywhere_. That's more important than being able to surf porn on your laptop.
Think future technologies, people!
--D
I just heard/read somthing (probably here...) concerning radio waves and property. That the courts can't privatize radio waves (ie disallowing people unscrambling broadcast signals) or all the broadcasters could be arrested for trespassing. This is sort of an inverse relationship, but proofs can be made that way...
"My father once told me that respect for the truth comes close to being the basis for all morality." - Muad'Dib
Cause nobody goes to PGE park anyway....
In some ways, you can't even limit a signal's access to your property. The Farraday cage idea is actually illegal.
The FCC takes a very dim view of people cutting out certain frequencies from the public spectrum, and for good reason. If you cut a broadcast off in your property, you've just blackholed everyone that sits downstream (down-cast?) from you. That makes it interference with the public airwaves, and therefore a crime.
Imagine this scenario: two radio stations compete for listeners...one of them buys a house very near the competitors broadcast towers and then black-holes their broadcast to huge sections of the city. Under your argument this would be legal, as the person owning the house doesn't want this signal in their property.
Yes. Even in the minors.
"This is our stadium, and we run the communications for it"
No, the FCC regulates radio communications. They have no right under existing law to control the radio transmissions on their property.
They can't prevent reception. Thanks to the DMCA, they can prevent descrambling. See the DSS arrests and the DirectTV vs. Everyone who ever bought a satellite programmer online debate, both featured here.
And property owners can scramble/block waves, as long as they use an FCC approved device, otherwise they can be considered transmitting on privatized bands. In the case of wireless networking, they could use their own Wi-Fi stations to block access to others. I believe that Starbucks was doing this. Buy the strongest transmitter available, and broadcast on all channels and you have essentially hijacked the spectrum, legally. The laws that allow us to have wi-fi are a double-edged sword.
It seems to me from the article that they aren't up in arms against wireless interenet access. More that they're covering their asses against a major sponsor. The press release makes it sound like the park had something to do with arranging the WAP that is run through a competitor to Comcast. So before we start calling names towards their management, remember that the ballpark is just trying to keep out of any lawsuits.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
Not exactly. Los Angeles County considered charging property tax on certain satillites, as "movable property," because the satellites were owned by companies located in LA County.
Besides, as someone else pointed out, geostationary satellites must orbit "over" the equator.
- - - -
The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
The other side you amazingly call ignorant simply thinks that PGE Stadium is smoking crack to declare themselves the owners of all communications in the stadium. Do they think they can pick and chose which radio stations broadcast into the stadium, what cell phone company you can use? How about what newspaper can send repersentatives, or who can take pictures? They are nuts, but maybe you think they are right?
This place could be for you. You seem to like telling other people how to act and think. Do you like it when other people tell you what you can bring to a ballgame. Maybe you fit right in with the other sheeple in the world who don't mind being told what electronic devices they can use, what beer they can drink, what snaks they can pay through the nose for, what adverts they MUST see and listen to, and all that other money grubbing shit that takes much fun out of going to a ballgame. Do you mind being thought of as a "captive" audience?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Sounds like the Portland Beavers' stadium is run by the same hall-monitor personalities that tend to populate HR departments. People whose mission in life is to imagine reasons why things shouldn't be allowed to happen, and to go running to the proper authorities to give them ample opportunity to object.
In this case the imagined authority entity that might be offended, Comcast, doesn't care. Even after assurances that they don't care and that everything is fine, hall monitor Metz isn't letting that dampen his spirits.
"I just don't want to step on anyone's toes," Metz said.
Yes Metz, we know you just want to do the right thing. Comcast knows, everybody knows. If WiFi at the stadium turns out to be a problem, we all know that it's Not Your Fault. So please do everybody a favor and shut the fuck up.
If they ever make it so that people can sue others for putting radiowaves through through their property then I'm going to be suing all the cell phone companies, satilite compnaies, etc. I'll let them put their radio waves through my property but only if they give me free access to them. I think I should get some right of way fee. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
You are misinformed on several levels:
1) this is minor league baseball (AAA, the step just below the majors)
2) they probably do have contract for some form of television broadcasting but it's probably only a few games a year
3) most stadiums allow cameras but not broadcast of play by play although if you ASK you'd probably be able to work a deal - this is all about selling tickets and getting people interested in coming to the ballpark.
Hotdogs are probably $3.50.
And DO enjoy the game. Minor league baseball is a hoot - and at the AAA level it's darn good baseball.