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Telemarketers Sue Over "Do Not Call" List
Joey Patterson writes "CNN reports that 'Telemarketers expanded their legal challenge to the government's do-not-call list, suing a second federal agency over the call-blocking service for consumers that the industry says will devastate business and cost as many as two million jobs.'"
Was there a constitutional right to profit that I missed?
Wow, a lucrative publishing contract! I don't have to be evil anymore. --Meteor
one could argue that they never had a viable industry in the first place. I mean sure they were born during the gee-whiz days of telephone technology, but yesterdays novelties are today's nuisances.
Another industry with a doomed business model resorting to litigation to address its (short-term) problems.
.
If I were a telemarketer, I'd be overjoyed at the prospect of a national do-not-call list. It should be seen as a list of people who aren't likely to buy anything from me, thus reducing the time I waste calling people who probably won't buy. The feds even pay to maintain it!
Also . .
The suit's argument that jobs will be lost is worthless. If they were motivated by providing jobs, I wouldn't get so many pre-recorded solicitations. I'm sure the industry would eliminate almost all their employees if they thought it would bring them more profit.
'I ain't a liar, baby, and I ain't proud I just want what I'm not allowed.' -- Violent Femmes, 36-24-36
Man, if you think it sucks to be in IT right now, it sucks much more to be a telemarketer... now, and every day.
Who put it in these guys heads that they have a right to call me at home to hock their mortgage and duct-cleaning schemes?
Every dollar they lose, the phone company (and via "trickle down" theory, me) saves by not shouldering the cost of their business.
Essentially their cost of doing business is being subsidized by everyone who pays a phone bill.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
They finally have to find a more dignified job.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
If the RIAA can get their continued existance legislated, it's only fair the telemarketing field gets the same treatment...
-insert a witty something-
Since when is a job a right? I'm glad I have a job while so many of my friends are laid off right now, but I don't think my job is a God given right that can't be taken away. I think this goes to more of a privacy issue, but will courts curtail privacy to save an industry money?
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Cry me a river.
If they (the Telemarketers) hadn't been so pushy uptil now, then the List wouldn't be necessary.
But they were, and so it is.
So 2 million high school&college kids/temp workers with no invested education for their job are out of work. They can go work anywhere else that doesn't require training.
Now how about the IT industry planning to fire 8% of it's US work force and move 3.3 million jobs to India and other Asian countries?
We need to sue/pass legislature/whatever to secure our jobs, damnit!
no comment
I'm confused. This means that half the people that buy products from telemarketers will sign up and therefore prevent themselves from buying new products?
Someone's being really stupid here. Is it the people that buy products & prevent themselves from buying more? Is it the telemarketers making this up? Or is it just me?
Practice Kind Randomness and Beautiful Acts of Nonsense.
You'd really think they'd notice the overwhelming response to the DNC registry and think "hey wait, maybe people really dont want to hear from us"...no such luck
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
testing out my trending skills
It beats me why the telemarketers are complaining. Currently about 28 million numbers have been registered on the national Do Not Call list, of around 313 million phone numbers in the US - that's less than 10%.
Until 100% of numbers are registered I would have thought the telemarketers would have loved this. A tool that lets them to avoid wasting time calling people who don't want their services. This should make their operation much more efficient - in other words profitable.
If they really believe they offer a valuable service, then clearly 100% of numbers won't be registered and they can continue to operate a profitable business serving those who do want their calls. Those who don't want to be called aren't. Win-win.
Sailing over the event horizon
how many of those 2 million jobs that they claim will be MIA are located in the US?
Caller ID works as well.
The question then becomes *why* we should have to pay a service fee and do manual filtering to avoid being harassed in our own homes.
Heck, I can't figure out *why* we have to pay extra to have an unlisted number.
May we never see th
I live in Missouri where I have enjoyed the protection of a State Do Not Call List. I have received two calls in the (2 or 3?) years the list has been in operation.
Having a state do-not-call registry, I do not see how a national list will reduce the number of unsolicited calls.
You would think the national list will make it easier on telemarketers. It must be easier to deal with one list rather than 50.
I don't understand how they can say this will cost them money. I thought that this would save them money.
I, for one, would never buy from a telemarketer. Ever. Nothing. So, by adding my name to the do not call list, they are no longer wasting their time by calling and offering things I will never buy. They can concentrate their efforts on the people who are receptive to this type of sales and avoid sadistic people like me who will let them talk and then leave them on hold for hours while I look for a credit card.
I would think that over the long run, they will see a higher percentage of sales per hour by eliminating people like me from the list.
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
I am sure they could create about 2 million jobs as well. Ditto for prostitution.
My rights don't need management.
1.99 million of them being out-sourced to other countries.
They are losing the kind of "customers" that don't really want to buy anything but will anyway just to get them off their back. That number of people is frighteningly high.
"Light is faster than sound." - "Is that why people tend to look bright until you hear them speak?"
You know, technically, the Federal government is for the people, by the people.
So if telemarketers are sueing the Federal government, then they are sueing both the people who buy their products, and those that do not wish even to consider them. In effect, we are looking at companies sueing consumers to force them to hear free speech. Fortunately, freedom of speech grants the right to say something; not the right to force others to listen.
It appears Ockham lost his razor and grew a beard.
Almost like spammers hiding their true domain name. God I love the advertising business. Granted I do agree that alot of people will not have jobs, and that sucks, but hey you pay the price for being annoying during my friggin dinner.
I am full of goo... black evil goo
Before everyone adds me to their Foes list, I want to say that I didn't last long: I quit. I was desperate for a summer job as a college student and thought that working indoors making a good wage was better than the crap jobs my buddies were getting pitching tar or whatever the hell they were doing in the heat. Funny thing is that I was selling premium television channels and I, personally, thought (still do) that TV was largely a waste. It took me a few weeks to develop my ability to sell something that I didn't believe in but pretty soon I was starting the heavy-sell over the phone. I was a hypocrite -- I personally thought what we were selling was crap.
Finally, one day I made a call and a very elderly woman answered the phone. I started into my sales pitch when she finally sobbed "Please, please, just leave me alone. My husband has died and I don't know how I'm going to pay my bills." And by god if I didn't have to bite my lip to stop myself from replying "You need some entertainment to distract you from your problems. Can I sign you up for the comedy channel?" Man, I was so programmed to try to turn a bad situation into a sale that it was just automatic! Fortunately, I still had some decency left and told her that I wished her best of luck and hung up. I quit the very next day. I still remember the look on the boss' face when I told him why I was quitting. I don't think he had ever had someone quit for moral reasons before. He was stunned that someone would voluntarily quit a high-paying, cushy job solely because of moral qualms. Because I had left before my shift was up, my ride wasn't there to pick me up. I walked all the way home in the rain. But I was happy. I had done the right thing.
Whenever I hear about the sob-stories of telemarketers, I simply remember back to those awful, awful people who I worked with those few weeks. Screw 'em.
GMD
watch this
you know i would like to sell crack on my corner, i hear it's quite lucrative
however, there is the small matter of the quality of life effect on my neighborhood, and my conscience about pushing an evil drug on people
where is the telemarketer's concern over the quality of life of the people they harass over the phone? and where is their conscience about wasting people's time?
who cares if it is 20 million jobs that are lost? telemarketing is an industry whose best place in the world is crumbling in the historical dustbin of defunct business models
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
To offset the revenue the telco loses from not being able to sell it...
Karma: Chameleon (mostly affected when you come and go, you come and go)
No, it doesn't. Caller ID does not stop the assholes who call and play prerecorded messages into my answering machine, making me waste time trying to find any real messages, nor does it prevent the phone from ringing. And I'll point out that those assholes who play the messages NEVER identify themselves as required by law -- they are required to tell me who they are and that they are selling something within the first 30 seconds, and they don't. Unfortunately, because the phone company has sold them service which deliberately shows up as "unavailable" on the caller ID, I can't sic the Attorney General on them.
Telemarketers have no first amendment right to harass me in my own home, period.
Since we got call waiting ALL of it has been eliminated!
Call waiting has nothing to do with stopping telemarketing.
If there are jobs that we don't want done, then they should be lost!
-Rob
We've had a "Do Not Call List", called the "telephone preference list", in the UK for over 3 years now. It works a treat. I haven't had a telemarketing call for over a year and if someone does call you just tell them you are on the list and they leave you alone sharpish.
Has it been devastating to companies in the UK? I don't think so. Maybe just to the shady ones that can only sell stuff over the phone because no advertisers will deal with them. I don't know about you but I think this is a good thing.
Consider this to be a "popular vote," as opposed to one that requires representation. I have cast my vote, and it says "go away."
It's kind of like having a speed limit on the highway. Yes, it restricts your ability to go fast, whenever you want. And yes, it places a restriction on how fast you can deliver material goods - which can be translated directly into "lost potential money" because it takes longer to deliver your wares.
Safety requirements "cost jobs" for manufacturers of toasters. Sound level restrictions on cars "cost jobs" for manufacturers of glass-pack mufflers. Telemarketing is an industry that is subject to federal/state/local regulations, just like all the rest.
So cry me a river. Deal with it.
Having to tell EVERY BUSINESS IN AMERICA that I don't want them to call me during dinner is foolish.
These companies do not have a right to profit. I do have a right to control access to myself.
What, do you think that anybody who puts their name on the DNC list would actually buy something from a telemarketer? If anything, this is going to increase their hit percentage.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
A strict constitutionalist view is dated and worn. These days, it's all about the billable hours.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
> The question then becomes *why* we should have to pay a service fee and do manual filtering to avoid being harassed in our own homes.
;)
The same reason our ISP now has to filter out e-mail, the same reason filter software companies are "viable" businesses (and will probably sue to block any laws to outlaw spams...
Seriously though, I though a fair number of telemarketeers outsource their boiler room operations to prisons and countries like India, so I am at a loss as to just what sort of job loss the telemarketing association is referring to.
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Just calls (more) attention to the list so people will know it exists and sign up.
Riiight, let's have the federal government pay people for not working in an industry that collapsed because of a market failure.
And for all those who are upset that I called this a market failure, this is exactly that. The telemarket industry broke itself by biting the hand that feeds it. This response is not on of a tyranical government ending a competitve industry, but an action requested for by the consumers. In the game of capitalist-political capital, the telemarketer lost.
Burninating the villagers, burninating the country side. TROGDOR!
Parent,
You miss the point the existing rules are opt-out, and they get 2 more chances to call you before there is a penalty (in my state). Opt-out is like having to wait to get shot to buy a bullet proof vest...
Reasons telemarketers should get no leniency;
1. Auto-dialers that ask you to hold.
2. Auto-dialers that hang up on you because no real telemarketer is available.
3. Auto-dialers that hang up on people (and look for answering machines/VM).
4. Telemarketers that will not tell you the company they are with when you ask to be removed from the list.
5. Rude telemarketers.
6. Telemarketers that call back when you hang up on them.
7. Telemarketers that will not listen to your sales pitch when they call (when you claim to be a fellow telemarketer).
The dirty secret of telemarketing is that the entire business model depends on pressuring mentally or emotionally vulnerable targets.
People who actually want the product will find it and buy it without telepests. People who don't want the product and have no problem with saying so will reject it in spite of telepests. The only case in which telepests actually make a difference is when they use the immediacy of phone contact against people who lack the self-assertion or mental competence to stand their ground.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Heck, I can't figure out *why* we have to pay extra to have an unlisted number.
Ya know, that's a good point. Doesn't it make more sense to pay to get your listed? Not listing your number saves ink and paper, right?
Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent. --Ludwig Wittgenstein
Telemarketers are as eligible for unemployment and welfare as anyone else. Tell em to shut the fuck up and stop calling me.
this simply wouldn't work, since in the equivalent to a constitution ("Grondwet") advertising is specifically NOT free speech.
flame on...
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
It's called "No Soliciting". When you post that on your front door I believe the guest has the obligation to NOT SOLICIT (ie. not try and sell anything) to the property tenant. If they try anyway, it could be considered trespassing or soliciting. If you approach someone and harass them in a parking lot and ignore the answer "no" it should be considered assault. Sorry guy, I have no use for people selling unwanted stuff to me or my grandparents. If I want it, I'll find you. Try passive marketing. Get an ad in the paper, the phonebook, or get into a search engine database. Better yet, word of mouth from someone.
In my youth I made the mistake of giving to a fireman charity. Dear god I regretted that. The scum sucking "charity causes" wouldn't leave me alone until I moved. They are 100 times worse than commercial salesmen.
The middle mind speaks!
Simple method, works for me:
On caller ID, most telemarketers (and some businesses) show up as "out of area". Don't answer those, let 'em go to Answering machine / voicemail. If they leave a message (and you care), answer, if not, don't.
Remember, the phone is a convenience. It's there for your convienence, not necessarily for the other person's needs.
As a friend of mine's father said (about why he wasn't happy they were getting a phone) - "People call when it's convenient for them".
Of course, having worked telephone support for a software company, I can sit there and watch the phone ring, and not feel any need to answer it. But I'm just weird like that.
Alternately, you can listen to the entire telemarketer's proposal, act interested, and when they ask to transfer you to the "business manager" to complete the sale, say you're not interested, and hang up. It's rather rude to the telemarketer, but think of how many people you saved having to listen to their spiel...
I am dyslexia of borg - your ass will be laminated.
[quote] ... ...
Privacy Manager
Combine this with CallerID, CallWaiting CallerID, CallNotes, CallBlocker and Anonymous CallBlocker and very few calls get through.
Sure, the entire package costs $80/mo but its worth it.
[/quote]
But the point is that we shouldn't HAVE to fork out an extra $80/month to not receive this harassment. It shouldn't be so difficult and expensive (in terms of time AND money) to get the calls to stop.
Would you think an extra $80/month is reasonable to remove 95% of your SPAM? Think about it: $80/month. Doesn't matter what job you have, it's still a lot of money. If you think it's reasonable, then go out and buy every spam-stopping piece of software available and don't complain about all the junk email you still get.
"Jesus saves, but everyone else in a 10 foot radius takes full damage from the fireball."
They claim that they will lose money by not calling people who have indicated that they do not wish to be called?
So they are really saying that people who signed up do not know what is good for them, and they really would like to buy what the telemarketers are selling? What an insult. The overwhelming response to the do-not-call list makes it difficult for these people to continue to pretend that they are not leeches.
Valid businesses will most likely leave me a message if I am not home. Telemarketers don't leave me messages. Two exceptions: the idiots who don't realize it is a machine, and sit there saying "hello? HELLO?" and those who still leave me a message about some fantastic prize I won by entering their sweepstakes (which I never enter).
I do ignore valid businesses to avoid telemarketers. Sometimes valid business are unsolicited, such as window salesmen, lawn care places, etc etc. I have valid businesses cold call me all the time. Many of them do show up on the caller ID.
I don't get the status UNAVAILABLE on my caller id, it usually shows up as "Out Of Area" or "Private". Those are telemarketers. Everyone else shows up with a name/number. If they are calling me for a valid reason, they'll leave a message. If not, then I don't care if I miss their call.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
First, they claim that this will devestate the industry. Personally, I couldn't wish for more. In fact, I think that telemarketers are worse than spammers -- telemarketers annoy you at THEIR convenience, including at the dinner table. People don't just want to unplug their phone -- it's still the most important communication medium. However, YOU chose when spammers annoy you as you chose when you check your email.
In addition, when I was flying back home, I called my dad from an airport on the other side of the country. It showed up on the caller ID as unavailable, and, due to telemarketers, he no longer answers unavailable callers, so my call didn't go through.
All things considered, though, I think that telemarketers should be happy for this. I mean, think about it. It's actually going to help the industry. They're wasting their time making a long distance call to my house, for nothing. So, the people who add their numbers to the do not call lists are probably going to be the ones like my family who NEVER buy anything from them. Thus, the only ones they'll reach are those who will ACTUALLY BUY something. Thus, it's going to increase effeciancy (god, I hate spelling).
You should have every right to call me if you want to. Just as I have every right to put up a fence to prevent you.
Companies don't have rights. The constitution and the amendments, and for that matter most laws that govern human behavior don't apply to corporations. When did we get such a silly notion?
A telemarketer wants to sue me or the person who administrates the DNC for blocking his free speech? Go ahead. Just make sure you make your lawsuit personal.
Mr.Iwannabeabitch vs Mr.Bitchslapper.
Not
Telenagger Inc. vs MrBitchslapper.
Nor
Telenagger Inc. vs DNC.org
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
You're kidding, right? Add up how many people will pay to be unlisted if listed otherwise and how many people will pay for being listed if unlisted otherwise. Yeah, the phone company's bean counters aren't stupid.
"I'm sorry, what country did you think you were in? Our country, a constitutional republic, is setup in such a way that if an entire industry bothers some people, those people can get their legislators restrain that industry in certain ways."
And yet Microsoft runs free.
Oh, BTW, pound sand, telemarketroids.
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
Allow me to prepare a defense of another industry in the same spirit as this one given by the telemaketers federation of evil:
Not smoking is a harmful socially irresponsible thing to do because it would cost the medical profession Billions of dollars and thousands of jobs every year if nobody smoked, therefore everybody should smoke whether they want to or not
Remind me again why I am supposed to care about these idiots?
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
I remember once my family just bought a new phone that had a speakerphone. We received a call and my Mom answered on the speakerphone so I heard everything, even though I was in the next room. The guy went into his spiel and my mom just kept saying no thanks, but the guy kept going on and on. Finally, I just walked into the kitchen and hung up on the guy. Why is it hard? If I get a telemarketer now, I say I'm not interested and hang up immediately.
Which just goes to show who is really profiting from telemarketers: the phone companies. They've never had it so good. On the one hand, they're making a lot of money renting phone lines and dialing equipment to the telemarketers so they can bother you during dinner. Then that forces you to pay them extra to get caller ID (how many people would give up their caller ID if they weren't worried about telemarketers?) which has to be one of their highest margin services. Then they turn around and charge the telemarketers more money for the service that lets them block your caller ID, and you more money for the service that blocks people who block their caller ID. It's an arms race, and the phone companies are getting rich selling to both sides.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Right. Most people will say that. But somebody still has to be buying the stuff. So somebody is lying. Please post a followup with the subject "/me sticks finger in the air" if you are the one.
The problem with these kind of intrusions is is that they are relatively new. Or at least the mass exploiration of it is. The law should always be a reflection of society. Comparing how they would fit into current laws is therefore important, but in no way should current laws alone dictate what direction the legal system should take.
My personal view is that spam and telemarketing should be considered a breach of privacy. With the possible exception of research, you should only be able to call or mail somebody after they have opted in into the system. Trying to ban a (not legally binding) opt-out system is obviously right at the other end.
For most people being called by one of these persons is pure harrassment, so the jobs that are lost is unfortunate for them, but for the good of society.
Currently I am not earning enough to be too bothered for myself though. Ok, I'm off buying some Aluminium sidings from Danny.
Warper
I don't share the hostility that most posters here feel towards the actual telemarketing employees.
I know people who have at various times held telemarketing jobs, and they all described thier jobs in similar terms to what is in some of the more hostile posts here. They took those jobs because it was what was available where they were. They took those jobs to get the last bit of cash needed to move on to the "greener pastures" we all dream about. The telemarketing employee is just a fleshy version of the email client being used to send spam. Thier employers, the clients who hire these firms, the DMA, the people who buy the crap that these poor sods are forced to sling over the phone for a couple of bucks are to blame for the plague of interrupted dinners. Not the employees who take these jobs.
Two Million jobs is a sh*tload of unemployment. The economy is not gonna "perk up" like that republican bastard promised us with two million people added to the unemployment ranks.
In other words I'm split on this one.
I'm on the do not call list.
I think the DMA and ATA need to shut up and go home instead of suing for the right to sell crap that very few people want over the phone. Maybe they will realize that a "no cold calls" policy is good for thier business AND their employees.
But I don't think that two million jobs lost in one fell swoop is good for anybody, and I don't for a second think that I'd be above taking a crappy telemarketing job if I had no other option to keep the rent paid and some food in the fridge.
Read, L