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(Solar) Power to the Masses

D3 writes "This report on a solar power tower (pdf) looks extremely interesting. Maybe one day we can have international power lines where all the countries with lots of sunshine provide power to the rest of the world? How cool would that be?" The NY Times has a good article on solar power in Japan.

88 of 471 comments (clear)

  1. Google link / Mirror by mjmalone · · Score: 3, Informative
    1. Re:Google link / Mirror by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 4, Funny
      Hey, they looks like the solar plant from Sim City!

      So does that mean I can buy one for $40,000?

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    2. Re:Google link / Mirror by CrowScape · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yoshiko Takahashi is no environmental activist, but in the last year she has become an ardent fan of the solar panels that generate most of the electricity for her 1,100-square-foot home. Using solar power, which was included with the new house that she and her husband bought a little more than a year ago, has not only cut the family's electricity bill by 17 percent but also made her feel good about helping fight global warming.

      Someone at the NYT needs a dictionary. Most > 50%

      --
      common sense: noun
      What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
    3. Re:Google link / Mirror by bluethundr · · Score: 2, Informative

      What I don't get is how you save 17% when solar panels are included with the new house. There's no 'before solar' for this house to compare bills! Comparing with some completely different house introduces an adsurd number of variables other than the solar panels and thus isn't a valid comparison at all.

      Except that most houses these days are mass produced, cookie-cutter homes. Travel to any suburb you want and this will be instantly apparent. Take two houses that are architecturally identical and aligned to similar points on the compass (as closely as is reasonably possible), and are also near to one another. Provide one with solar, one without. Bingo! Instant comparison with the elimination of as many variables as possible.

      --
      Quod scripsi, scripsi.
    4. Re:Google link / Mirror by sowellfan · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's actually been done. Here is a link.

      http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/active/zeh/lakeland /i ndex.htm

      From what I can tell, the photovoltaic home was pretty efficient.

  2. At last.... by mummers · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...a use for global warming :-)

    --
    --This isn't a man who is leaving with his head between his legs.
    1. Re:At last.... by Frymaster · · Score: 4, Informative
      no! you mean ozone depletion:

      global warming: increase in heat-retaining gasses reduce dissipation of energy from the plaent/atmosphere. since the input of energy from the sun remains constant, mean temperatures rise.

      ozone depletion: stratospheric ozone (o3) blocks high-frequency solar radiation on its way to the earth's surface. less o3 means more high-frequency radiation.

      since solar panels (photovoltaics) are more effective with high-frequency radiation, ozone depletion increases their output.

      global warming just sucks

    2. Re:At last.... by slughead · · Score: 2, Interesting

      global warming will increase crop yields, provide more rain in some fertile but drought-ridden areas, and increase the usefulness of the currently useless solar power?

      And, of course, there's always the fear of global cooling, which would put us into another iceage and take out tons of inland cities not prepared to deal with the barren landscape. Not to mention the fact that europe would be decimated if another ice age happened, they'd have to take over africa again and live amoungst their ancient mistakes.

      global warming sounds like a picnic compared to global cooling, where do I sign up?

    3. Re:At last.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      > solar panels (photovoltaics) are more effective with high-frequency radiation

      No, as a matter of fact, they are not. When the frequency is higher, the excess energy is wasted
      as heat. Not only is it not used, but it heats the panels and makes them even less effective.
      Work has been going on for some time on panels that can use the full spectrum, or at least a wider
      swath of it.

  3. Discover magazine had a good article by bubblegoose · · Score: 4, Informative

    Discover Magazine just did a story on something like this. Unfortunately the full story is only available in dead tree format. If you wait until next month the older article will be available. You can probably check it out at your Dentist's office like I did if you feel like getting a filling.

    EnergyInovations is working on a small version. From the Discover article it discusses how they refined the stirling engine with the best tradeoffs of manufacturing costs to effiency. IIRC they are also making this small enough to make it fit on a roof top.

    Geek fact of the day: A stirling engine is an external combustion engine that runs off the pressure created when one side of its engine gets very hot while the other side stays cool. The greater the temperature difference, the greater the pressure, the greater the energy generated.

    --
    I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people. - Jack Handey
    1. Re:Discover magazine had a good article by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Home power

      is a better solution...

      I have my cabin on the lake heated and powered without buying heatoil or electricity... and it's in northern michigan.

      you can do it. and you can do it now. you just need to have a desire that outweighs the convience of simply paying a bill.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Discover magazine had a good article by MrEd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      SHEC Labs in Canada is also working on small(er) units, and potentially catalytic hydrogen generation! You can see videos of their prototype in action here.

      --

      Wah!

    3. Re:Discover magazine had a good article by Misch · · Score: 2, Informative

      Try here. They have all sorts of goodies on their website. Guides to energy efficient housing, appliances, calculators, and links to other resources.

      --

      --You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
    4. Re:Discover magazine had a good article by gaijin99 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      How much would it cost to fit an existing house with a solar panel - and how long would it take to recoup that cost in electricity savings? What kind of running costs do these solar panels have?

      Very good questions, as it happens, I have answers!

      In California it costs around $15-$20K to refit a house with solar panels. Due to recent legislation the power company MUST pay the wholesale price to any of their customers who generate power. It takes around 20 years for the cost of the panels to be recouped.

      Note that these numbers assume that the cost of power stays stable, which is fairly unlikely. If the cost per kilowatthour increases then it will take proprotionately less time for the panels to pay for themselves. A long term investment, but ultimately worthwhile.

      In terms of pure energy costs (neverminding money) it takes a typical solar panel about three years to generate the amount of energy it took to produce. Some panels are made from recycled wafers (typically wafers which were rejected for chip manufacture) these take about 3 months to make the electricity that went into their production.

      --
      "Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
    5. Re:Discover magazine had a good article by gaijin99 · · Score: 3, Informative
      My ignorance is showing. Why does it take vastly less time for a wafer rejected for chip manufacture to recoup the energy spent on its production, compared to the 'typical' solar panel? 3 months versus three years? Wouldn't the rejected panel take just as much energy to produce, and probably be less efficient?

      The reason is because the most expensive (in terms of energy) part of manufacturing anything based on a silicon wafer is growing the initial crystal.

      The crystal must be perfect, a single bubble, crack, or deformity, makes the whole bloody thing worthless (as an aside: this is why some chip makers drool at the prospect of an orbital chip fabber, growing crystals is much easier in microgravity).

      After you have your perfect crystal you turn it into wafers and "print" the microchip circutry on the wafer. The problem is that there is a fairly high chance of the printing process going wrong, which results in a rejected wafer. This is where the cheap solar panels come in. They buy the rejected wafers, scrub the failed chip off, and print the solar panel on the scrubbed wafer. Solar panels are more durable and less picky than chips, being printed on a scrubbed wafer doesn't bother them at all.

      The resultant solar cell is just as good as one made on a fresh wafer. Since they didn't grow the wafer (and it would have been scrapped anyway) they count only the energy cost of scrubbing and printing the panel on the recycled wafer. I suppose if you want to get picky you could claim it costs the same as a normal panel, since energy was spent growing the crystal in the first palce, but I think its fair to discount that since the energy would have been wasted (bad wafer).

      --
      "Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
  4. If it's going to make electricity cheaper... by xNoLaNx · · Score: 5, Funny

    then more power to 'em!

  5. International distribution - no go. by dschuetz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Maybe one day we can have international power lines where all the countries with lots of sunshine provide power to the rest of the world?

    Great idea, but power simply can't be distributed over that great a distance.

    To make up for losses due to resistance in wires, they up the voltage to absurd levels -- decreasing the current level, and, in the process, the voltage drop over a long distance. However, this can only be taken so far, and towers supplying electricity to the rest of the planet is way too far.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure that the continental US is too wide for coast-to-coast power sharing (that is, power generated in, say, New York, can only be "shipped" as far west as Indiana, or so).

    On the other hand, replace today's wires with some kind of high-current, high-temperature superconductor, and you're golden.

    1. Re:International distribution - no go. by EMH_Mark3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Time to come up with cheap room-temperature superconducting wire :)

      --
      Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me
    2. Re:International distribution - no go. by ipjohnson · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah but in those case your talking about quebec selling power to the north east which is right next door. So you don't have to go very far.

    3. Re:International distribution - no go. by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is why superconductor technology is so important. The problem is a general lack of high temperature superconductors. We need them for two reasons. One is power transmission, and the other is heat transmission. A high temperature superconductor with sufficient surface area makes the ultimate heat sink. These two purposes make superconductors indispensible and necessary for the next evolutionary step in technology, which demands greater power storage (or generation) and greater power transmission.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:International distribution - no go. by Paulrothrock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Orbital Solar Power relies on the fact that the power would be transmitted to earth via microwave. Why not do the same with these solar power stations?

      Since these require a lot of space, and the microwave receiver requires a large area to prevent harmful levels of radiation, they are made for one another. Simply put the mirrors on top of the microwave receiver, and you'll have the added benefit of not having to worry about covering the area with gravel to prevent plant growth. Though that may not be a problem in the desert.

      Of course, the fact that they can generate power overnight makes this a very minor necessity.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
    5. Re:International distribution - no go. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2, Funny

      I like how the U.S. power grid is divided into 3 parts - Eastern, Western, and Texas. Seems appropriate somehow.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  6. but then by crow976 · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...the US would takeover those sunny countries.

    1. Re:but then by DogIsMyCoprocessor · · Score: 3, Funny

      And protesters would have signs that say "It's all about the sun".

      --

      "And this is my boy, Sherman. Speak, Sherman." "Hello." "Good boy."

    2. Re:but then by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know it was just a joke. But I just wanted to point out that the US has a rather large desert area that rarely sees clouds.

    3. Re:but then by penguinlust · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are anonymous and you are a coward but you are not intellegent.

      "We" did not conquer France, we helped the French liberate it. "We" did not single handedly conquer Italy. "We" did not single handedly conquer Germany. The reality is the harsh Russian winter had more to do with it than any thing else.

      Why is it that cars from all other countries than ours get better gas milage? Why is it that american cars do NOT sell in other countries. Because they do not have their governemnt and military subsidizing oil.

      If sunny countries could provide energy for the rest of the world, Bush would direct the military to take them over and string up sun nets across the country so his friends could continue to sell thier oil to suckers like you.

    4. Re:but then by ocelotbob · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Sorry. The US already has enough sunny areas that if solar power were to gain widespread feasability, there would be little to no need to import any energy. There are huge parts of Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, etc that would be perfect for solar generation as they're sunny locations pretty much year round, and would be perfect for generatint power.

      So quit your US baaaad sheepspeak and get your head out of your ass, mmmmkay?

      --

      Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses

    5. Re:but then by bbc22405 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      First, the grandparent post was obviously humor, and good humor at that. Parent poster needs to acquire a sense of humor.

      Second, when you said "feasible", you meant "profitable". Certainly such a power plant is feasible; it has already been done!

      Third, regarding the profitability, just how many of these solar tower power plants do you think we could be building with the $5,000,000,000 per month that the USA is spending to be in Iraq? Not to mention the $100,000,000,000 that we already spent getting there and being there so far?

      If we as taxpayers agree that we should squander such a huge pile of money, we should ask if instead of spending it on Iraq, it would be better to spend on a project that would in one fell swoop 1) create lots of construction jobs in the USA 2) reduce our alleged need to obtain fossil fuels from wildlife preserves in Alaska and elsewhere 3) increase our electrical supply 4) reduce our dependence on foreign oil and probably improve our trade imbalance at the same time 5) weaken oil cartels 6) reduce emissions of greenhouse gases 7) reduce emissions that cause acid rain 8) improve the stability of our electrical grid by adding energy storage capacity 9) satisfy our putative duty under the Kyoto Treaty, to the amazement and gratitude of the rest of the world? The economic analysis of whether or not we should build such plants might need to be more profound than simply "how many $/kilowatthour will it cost"?

  7. Transmission is weak link by w42w42 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I don't know the percentages, but if you were to transfer power from say Mexico to Canada under this scenario, your energy losses would be huge.

    1. Re:Transmission is weak link by chef_raekwon · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know the percentages, but if you were to transfer power from say Mexico to Canada under this scenario, your energy losses would be huge.

      if one was to transfer energy from Mexico to Canada (and only God knows why we would do this), it would be transfered from the Mexican border, to the American border. The American border would then sell it up the chain. In the end, it would be an American Border state, that would sell to Canada...the idea of the power is that it is the same, but in reality, it wouldnt be...

      this way, losses would be minimal...

      --
      We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
  8. A bright idea by any other name by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It would be nice to use the energy baking my roof rather than expend energy to pump it out.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  9. like in the California by amorico · · Score: 5, Funny

    Will the sunshine nations (OSEC) collude to create artificial shortages and drive up prices in the sunless nations. Rolling blackouts, $700 power bills. The best part will be when they say its the fault of the sunless nations for having draconian environmental laws.

    I'm really not this bitter in person.

    --
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Roger Brinner
  10. Government involvement by Gibble · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If governemnts subsidized people to install these instead of new shingles, this would severely cut down energy concerns.

    Of course electric companies would complain, but they will still be needed, solar power won't provide enough power.

    hmm...actually then my electric company would just charge more for less so they don't lose profits...damn

    --
    Gibble: Descriptive of an emotional state in which one's mind is scrabbling for some purchase on reality
    1. Re:Government involvement by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If governemnts subsidized people to install these instead of new shingles, this would severely cut down energy concerns.

      Why take the money in the form of taxes, pass it through the government mess, and then dole it back out again? Why not just make the solar panels deductible? Then you avoid a wasteful bureaucracy to manage the subsidies. 100% of the cost goes into the panels. As people buy them, competition heats up, and they become affordable to an increasing number of people.

      --
      --- Ban humanity.
  11. solar energy. by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ok so these people have a 17% electricity bill drop (from what to what in Japan?) after buying an 1100 sq. ft. home that has solar panels...

    How much did having the solar panels on the home add to the price of an already expesive home? How much will the 17% save over the life of the home?

    Are electric rates in Japan like they are here? 17% of my last electric bill (mind you, it's the summer and I have the A/C on at least 8 hours a day and a box fan in the bedroom on at least 10 hours a day) is $4.20 (granted my apt. is 720 sq. ft. instead of 1100).

    1. Re:solar energy. by shakah · · Score: 2, Informative
      The article's a little short on data to answer your question, but using the article:
      When she, her husband and son lived in a Tokyo apartment, the family paid 16,000 yen ($135) a month for electricity. Now, their bill has fallen by half and they receive about 2,000 yen from Tokyo Electric Power in return for the surplus electricity they generate.
      and assuming that the electricity bill in Yoshikawa would resemble that of their old apartment in Tokyo, it looks like they could be saving about $85/month (~$1K/yr), with the solar panels "paying for themselves" in 18 years (neglecting a whole bunch of variables, of course).
    2. Re:solar energy. by maynard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      According to http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/pvpayback. pdf photovoltaic payback in all energy costs associated with manufacture is anywhere from 3-7 years, depending on photovoltaic type (CIS or SC-SI) and assuming 5 hours/day of direct sunlight. Interesting read. --M

  12. International Power Cables by Jonsey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    International Power Sharing/Leasing/Selling is all well and good. However, I truely doubt that the large scale implied by the poster would ever happen. All cables are lossy. Pushing power along cables has energy lost, dependent mostly on how far you're pumping the juice. (Also, voltage, current, resistance of the wire, local EMFs, and all sorts of minor things too)

    While it would rock to have clean energy finally adopted... Carting it across long distances still sucks.

    Gimme Wind, Gimme Solar, hell, I'll even take Geothermal, just make it clean, unobtrusive, and if you'd like, I can sell you some good land in my back yard. *me mutters about pretentions NIMBY asses*

    --
    I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.
  13. *snicker* by somethingwicked · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm sorry, I can't help but smirk and snicker when I think about the Japanese and their

    "Solah Powah Towahs!"

    *smile*

    --

    ---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---

  14. Lines to the Nations? by thomas.galvin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We don't really need lines carrying solar power from sunny areas to the rest of the world. There are plenty of environment-friendly ways to generate power; solar in the sunny areas, hydro-electric in areas with lots of waterfalls, etc, windmills in the plains...

    Availability of methods isn't slowing down alternative fule sources; people just see no reason to invest the necessary capital to change over, when burning dead dinosaurs is working quite happily.

  15. Solar power tower? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    OK, we'll let Grapple build it, but if any Decepticons ask if they can help, just say NO.

  16. solar and wind power is viable right now by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It requires a complete re-think of the utilities infrastructure and removal of idiots that run them.

    If a normal neighborhood had 2 stationary panels on each home's roof pointed south that backfed to the utility power and they did the storage, it could be a reality right now.

    but it's easier to keep that 1929 Coal plant running and those power commisioners that have no fricking clue or care outside their pocket or circle of power than to change to current technology.

    Anyone here can easily reduce their power consumption to 1/10th of what they use now. Couple that with a city wide solar network with some wind plants like in Macinaw city or out west and you can easily have clean power.

    it's changing government, and the wasteful companies (running 1500 horse power pumps from 1955-1957 instead of buying noew high efficency pumps) that will be nearly impossible...

    Changing to non polluting power will be more difficult than getting bill gates to embrace and use linux.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:solar and wind power is viable right now by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Luckily most home devices are becoming more efficient. Monitors are even lower power than they used to be, inch for inch, and of course costly LCD displays available today use less power, and supposedly OLED displays will be inexpensive and low power. A topic close to the hearts of geeks.

      Hell, even washing machines are now being sold based on being low-power. We're on our way.

      It's true that more homeowners should be thinking about solar and/or wind, but that's more easily said than done in this time when money is hard to come by. Sure you save money in the long run, but there's that significant investment. Also, some legislation is needed to force the power companies to buy your power at a reasonable rate if we're going to have this bright new future you're discussing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:solar and wind power is viable right now by Zathrus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If a normal neighborhood had 2 stationary panels on each home's roof pointed south that backfed to the utility power and they did the storage, it could be a reality right now.

      That might work in some areas of the country... it certainly won't work worth a damn in any area of the country that experiences hail or severe winds (like, oh say, virtually the entire southeastern US). Hail utterly destroys solar panels, and it'll happen often enough that it'll ruin your cost return on them. High winds tend to cause tree branches (or entire trees... yes, it happened to my house under a year ago) to fall on houses, which may cause damage to the solar panels as well.

      Not to mention that most people with a clue have already shaded their southern facing roof with trees, in order to reduce daylight exposure during summer and thus reduce energy usage.

      And it completely ignores the issue that solar and wind power are considerably more expensive, on a KWh basis, than the alternatives. Including nuclear. Roughly twice the cost last time I checked. Yeah, I know... if pollution costs were included then the cost of production for fossil fuels would be considerably higher. Wouldn't significantly change the cost of production for natural gas though, which is a very large percentage of the power grid in the US now. And regardless, you have to compete in the real world, not some world where you get to make up the rules... about the best you can do is petition for new laws to be more strict on coal and oil fired power plants which would have the net effect of raising the production costs. Good luck.

  17. Re:Thus by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 2, Funny
    The sun would never set on the American Empire!

    ... because if it did we'd all be running on battery backup.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  18. Another Stirling use. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Another obvious stirling use is as part of your home heating plant.

    British Gas to launch individual CHP boiler for homes

    British Gas has announced that it is developing a household boiler that generates both heat and electricity, which will increase energy efficiency and cut costs for customers, allowing them to sell excess electricity back to the Grid.

    The new combined heat and power (CHP) boilers, developed by MicroGen Energy

    Think about it. You burn gas to stay warm. (if you don't have a heating season....then you don't) Why not burn the gas to do work? You still get your heat. And the work can make electricity.

  19. Retro by Euphonious+Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful
    These power tower things are disappointingly retro. Thousands of moving parts, big temperature fluctuations, difficult materials handling problems.

    Australia is building big convection towers. They are just a big (big!) greenhouse sloping up in the center, so the hot air runs up what amounts to a chimney there, and drives a big windmill -- really, a bunch of them -- in the chimney. It has only a few moving parts, and is easy to build with mature technology.

    Simple might not help employ physicists, but it's the right way to build.

    1. Re:Retro by re-geeked · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But, unlike the tower described, the convection tower does not provide the means to store the energy and throttle production up and down at will -- that is what keeps solar off the radar screen of the big utilities.

      As for the simplicity, you're saying that a humongous enclosure and a kilometer-high chimney (I'm sure you build those in your back yard all the time) is somehow simpler than a bunch of swivelling mirrors? And that gearing a fan to handle spikes and drops and still efficiently work as a turbine is easier than just pumping hot sat through a boiler?

      Finally, "retro" means "we've done this before, we know what we're doing."

      --
      "You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
  20. Bad idea. by grub · · Score: 2, Funny


    How short our memories are.. When we get all that solar power the machines will start a war. We'll have to destroy the skies and move the survivors underground to Zion.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  21. Line Loss by Omega1045 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am not a EE, but having a power Co-Op as a major client I know there is a significant line loss (power loss) associated with transmitting power over long distances. There are also major financial, political and citizen factors to overcome when building new transmission lines. The technology looks cool. I think getting the power from a to b will be a bigger issue.

    --

    Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

  22. The government's solar power tower site by craterac · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.eere.energy.gov/csp/csp_tech.html Sandia actually did quite a bit of research on solar power towers. When Bush got into power, alot of the funding was taken away. Israel's Weizmann institute actually has a working power tower that is more advanced than the ones made at Sandia. http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/site/EN/weizman.a sp?pi=420&doc_id=731

  23. forgive me if i am wrong by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    all i'm asking is for some prudence and a reality check before ecstatically proclaiming "Maybe one day we can have international power lines where all the countries with lots of sunshine provide power to the rest of the world?"

    i think those sunny countries would rather exist than become giant solar panel farm fields for wasteful cloudy northerners

    current power demands versus current solar technology efficiency: wouldn't that necessitate something like covering the whole sahara desert with solar panels?

    nevermind the gargantuan investment in time and money to build the infrastructure to set this up... and wouldn't covering vast areas of the earth in solar panels have it's own environmental down side?

    i mean, don't get me wrong, hydro/ wind/ solar is wonderful, but isn't the power output from these technolgies miniscule compared to burning hydrocarbons, as environmentally unfriendly as that is?

    we need fusion man, pronto. i want my mr. fusion damnit! ;-)

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:forgive me if i am wrong by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Interesting
      current power demands versus current solar technology efficiency: wouldn't that necessitate something like covering the whole sahara desert with solar panels?

      Let's assume we want to provide all of the world's energy needs by solar power. If I recall correctly, the world currently uses about 500 exajoules of primary energy per year, or about 16 terawatts. The sun provides about 1000 watts/m^2 at our distance. However, the overall system efficiency would be somewhere around 1% of that (say 20% solar cell efficiency, 75% loss from night/day/latitude geometry , 40% weather loss, 70% storage conversion and transmission loss). That gives 10W/m^2 average output, so we need 1.6 million square kilometers, about the size of Alaska.

      That sounds bad, but it's actually only 0.3% of the earth's surface area. I would guess that the best way to implement that much collector would be to develop plastic based collectors in huge sheets that are floated on the oceans. Convert the energy to hydrogen on site and pipe it to the consuming countries. By eliminating fossil fuel usage, you free up huge sources of raw materials to make all of that plastic.

      You could argue that that much area would screw with the earth's climate by changing reflectivity. However, at least it's not generating a layer of greenhouse insulator. Moreover, current agriculture practices alter the reflectivity of a much larger percentage of the earth's surface.

      (Don't bother replying to suggest outer space collectors. Say they were 30X more efficient than earth-based systems. Nobody's going to launch satellites with a surface area 3% the size of Alaska. We've been trying to put up a space station the size of my back yard for 20 years now, and still haven't finished.)

  24. Leave the enviropolitics out by b-baggins · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You know, the author of the article would have more crediblity if he quit using phrases like "Berlin Wall of Solar Power" in the article.

    Also buried in the article is the fact that this rig is so freakin' expensive to set up and so uneconomic to run, that only nations with massive subsidy programs are the ones looking at it. They are targeting Spain because they signed Kyoto and so the government (read taxpayer) is willing to underwrite the whole thing.

    So, who wants to take bets on how long before environmentalists scream that we are destroying the planet by planting hundreds of thousands of square miles of mirrors across the Southwestern desert?

    Have they figured in the cost of replacing sandblasted mirrors and the cost of trucking water in to clean the mirrors?

    --
    You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
  25. Re:South Pole by stratjakt · · Score: 3, Informative

    Answer:

    Sure but it would suck.

    The reason its so cold there is because what sunlight hits does so at an extreme angle.

    Its hot at the equator because the sun is beaming straight down.

    A square foot of ground in Mexico gets an order of magnitude more light energy hitting it than a square foot in antarctica.

    Besides, it's pitch black 6 months of the year at either pole.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  26. I alway wondered by jhiv · · Score: 2, Funny

    I always wondered what that facility out in the middle of Kirkland Air Base was. It's quite visible when flying into Albuquerque. I thought that they were exerimenting with a way to shoot down terrorist planes using sunlight. (Imagine burning up a terrorist's plane over New York by training all the mirrored windows of the skyscrapers on it.)

    Of course, burning up airplanes wouldn't work well at night.

  27. Re:If they don't want thier sun.. seattle wants it by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Damn those countries with so much son,.. is there a way for us to replicate thier sun over our heads in washington,..

    Yes we can, it take a really big parabolic mirror... but we will have to test the focus first on a city in your state... will Redmond do as a test target?

    This post brough to you by the Linux for solar mirrors of doom in space council...

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  28. Australian solar tower sounds better by macshune · · Score: 3, Informative

    After reading the article, this plan to use sun-tracking mirrors to melt salt sounds a little more complicated than this Australian plan. Not only that, but the Australian plan scores more points in the coolness department as the project intends to build the world's tallest structure -- a tower 1 kilometer high. BTW, IANAA (I am not an australian)

  29. Powersats are a better idea by libertynews · · Score: 2

    http://www.powersat.com -- solar power arrays in space (no attentuation by atmosphere or weather) beaming power back to Earth using microwaves. SF author Jerry Pournelle (http://www.jerrypournelle.com) has been advocating these for years.

    Brian

    --
    Remember Lexington Green!
  30. Re:Well... by ShavenYak · · Score: 2, Funny

    How do they do that? I thought in England, the electrons went on the left side of the wire!

    --

    Hey kids, there's only 5 days left 'til Yak Shaving Day!
  31. Fat guy with a white cat... by ctid · · Score: 2, Funny

    Does anyone else think that this is eventually going to end up as an imaginative way of killing James Bond? The villain will incarcerate Bond in the salt-melting room, give him a long, detailed lecture about his plans for world domination, make a sub-Bond witticism and then go away, explaining that Bond has until sunrise to live. Of course Bond will escape (using some sand-powered laser which Q has fortunately given to him) and the fat guy, sans cat we hope, will end up taking a bath in molten sand. Or is it just me who thinks like this?

    --
    Reality is defined by the maddest person in the room
  32. Orbital Solar Power Stations are the way to go... by karlandtanya · · Score: 2, Funny
    Oh, give me a locus where the gravitons focus Where the three-body problem is solved, Where the microwaves play down at three degrees K, And the cold virus never evolved. (chorus)

    We eat algea pie, our vacuum is high, Our ball bearings are perfectly round. Our horizon is curved, our warheads are MIRVed, And a kilogram weighs half a pound. (chorus)

    If we run out of space for our burgeoning race No more Lebensraum left for the Mensch When we're ready to start, we can take Mars apart, If we just find a big enough wrench. (chorus)

    I'm sick of this place, it's just McDonald's in space, And living up here is a bore. Tell the shiggies, "Don't cry," they can kiss me goodbye 'Cause I'm moving next week to L4! (chorus)

    CHORUS: Home, home on LaGrange, Where the space debris always collects, We possess, so it seems, two of Man's greatest dreams: Solar power and zero-gee sex.

    --Home on Lagrange (The L5 Song)

    (c) 1978 by William S. Higgins and Barry D. Gehm

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
  33. GREAT resource for Solar, Wind, Water by capedgirardeau · · Score: 2, Informative

    Possibly the best do it yourselfer magazine I have ever read is dedicated to renewable energy and guerrilla solar.

    Home Power Magazine

    --
    Wax on, wax off baby!
  34. so how about let's by H0NGK0NGPH00EY · · Score: 2, Funny

    get together in an undeveloped area, far outside the limits of the nearest city, and build something like this from the ground up? Not only will we have a working example of a radically different electric power structure, but think of the implications of a whole town populated with /. readers!

    ...

    Umm... wait. Nevermind. Don't think of that.

    --
    Do not read this sig.
  35. Big house by Convergence · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Solar insolation is about 1kW/m^2.. Well, except for the earths rotation. Assuming a non-tracking system, we have to divide by a factor of pi, so thats 300 W/m^2.. Well, except that the average efficiency of solar cells is under 15%, so thats 45W/m^2. Now, the average home has what? 2 people in it, and the per-capita electrical usage, averaged over the course of a year is 1kW. So, you need 2kW for that home, and only get 45W/m^2. So, you need 50 square meters of solar cell, correctly angled south. And this is the best case.

    Now account for clouds and dirty cells. Unless you clean the cells every few days and pressure wash them biweekly, better increase the square meters of solar cells another 50%. So, thats 60-80 square meters of cell/house..

    Now the next question. Where do you store all the energy you'll use at night? If you don't store it, where does it come from? Fancy burying a few ton flywheel in your backyard? How about aa closet filled with lead and sulpheric acid batteries? If you're going to use hydrogen to store it, better double or triple the square meters of solar cell for those inefficiencies.

    The same problem applies to 'Solar 2'. You need about 1000 of them to equal the average energy of a nuclear power plant. And another 299000 to equal the mean energy used by the US. To replace all energy used in the US requires about a million Solar 2's.

    1. Re:Big house by doinky · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You store the power in the grid; the power company maintains the gigantic flywheels. Keep in mind that in sunny climates, the power consumption at 5:00 PM is overwhelmingly higher than at midnight (air conditioning); so the power you need to "save" for nighttime is nowhere near as large as you imply.

  36. INEXPENSIVE power storage? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative
    Batteries degrade. Capacitors eventually degrade, and they cost a lot in any kind of useful form. The best ways I can see are A> a flywheel and B> electrolytic (is that right?) separation of water to get hydrogen and later burn it for power generation. The problem with the first one is, what do you make the flywheel out of, how do you house it so if it breaks it doesn't blow your house up, how do you keep it quiet, how do you put power into it, how do you take power out of it. The problem with the hydrogen plan is, how do you store it, how do you compress it, etc. Also how do you keep the engine quiet, how big does it need to be, etc.

    The problem is not and never has been generating the power, the problem is storing the power. The power companies barely buy power from individuals; It costs several thousand dollars for the required hardware, and even then they pay you much less than you pay them for power.

    So, how do I cheaply, safely, and non-annoyingly store electrical energy (in some form) and how do I get it back to being usable electrical power later? It's trivial to build wind generators using automotive generators, and build solar panels out of broken solar cells, and for that matter to build your own gas generators using alternators. They kick out 12V which is useful on its own, and you can always use inverters to spit out 110VAC or what have you.

    If you get slightly more uppity you can build your own three phase alternators and use them to drive three phase motors, which are commonly used in machine shop equipment.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  37. Stick 'em on the moon! by addie · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't know much about microwaves, but this story at ABC News seems like a pretty amazing idea (Summary: cover swaths of the moon with solar panels and beam the energy back to Earth via microwaves). What's 150 billion in the grand scheme of things?

    There'll still be the idealists who scream about defacing the surface of the moon, but it would be relatively low maitenance (no elements to damage the panels, except for the occasional meteorite) and wouldn't take up precious space here on Earth, where things can grow or live. As romantic as some of us can be, the moon is still just a big chunk of lifeless mafic rock.

    Anybody actually have an idea how well this would work?

    1. Re:Stick 'em on the moon! by Big_Breaker · · Score: 2, Informative

      It doesn't have to deface the moon. The "dark" side of the moon isn't dark at all. It is getting light when we see a new moon.

      You could put the panels on the side we can't see on earth and bounce the power off an extra satellite.

      The real problem with this to that you either need to
      A) Build the panels on earth and transport them to the moon (which is insanely expensive), or
      b) Build the solar panels on the moon with lunar materials

  38. Exactly correct, need hydrogen by TamMan2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hydrogen pipelines are nearly lossless, also hydrogen allows you to timeshift your production and use of electricity.

    Hydrogen fuel cells are being oversold by many people, but this is one thing that they would be great for.

    --
    "I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
  39. Intercontinental power supply not probable by christophe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Even if technically feasible (others here think it is not, but cheap 'hot' supraconductors could appear tomorrow), rich countries have enough problems securing their oil supply, to add another dependency with power! It would be "logical" to put solar panels in Sahara to 'feed' Europe, but then Algeria, Lybia & so on would have the power to 'switch off' whole countries. I suppose the US would be solar-self-sufficient anyway, and Japan and Europe could put panels on the sea.

    There is enough solar power, and wind power and geothermy, and tidal power, and nuclear (even oil or coal), even in winter, for each continent to provide its own energy. If only we REALLY wanted.

    --
    Christophe (Don't hesitate to point out my spelling and grammar mistakes, I want to learn - Thanks).
  40. Better: Local generation using combined solar/wind by vkg · · Score: 4, Informative

    Small is Profitable by Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute is about the benefits of generating your electricity using small, modular power systems where you need them. It turns out that grid infrastructure is often well over 50% of the cost of providing power, and that if you simply install systems like microturbines or small-scale combined wind/solar installations (explained below), you can significantly outperform the grid in terms of end-user price and capital requirement.

    That's not a big deal here, where we already have a grid, but it's a huge, huge deal in the third world.

    The combined solar/wind thing works like this. Electricity demands have a thing called a "load shape" - basically demand graphed against time. It turns out that solar energy supplies match the load shape of things like air conditioners pretty well, but when the clouds come out, your solar supply goes to hell.

    However, wind systems work best when there's a sudden change in temperature, causing new low or high pressure areas, so usually cloudy days have ample wind. If you combine local solar and wind systems in a single "local area grid" you get a hybrid system which produces power in almost exactly the same loadshape as your actual demand, reducing expensive overcapacity, and with excellent availability in all weather conditions.

    Renewable energy requires a lot more smarts than "this is a huge factory which produces megawatts a day" - you don't see nearly the full benefit unless you actually take advantages of the full range of renewable solutions, using factors like their modularity, size, loadshape matching, low capital requirements, grid independence and many other subtle factors.

    Small is Profitable is a hard read: about 400 pages of really densely argued financial and technical analysis, but it's pretty much the definitive work in the area. If you want to know more, it's the book to get.

  41. P2P Power by mbkkelsey · · Score: 2, Funny
    The article said that the family sells their surplus power back to the power company...

    I envision a future where PV homeowners can share their extra power with their neighbors through a P2P system... of course, the local energy company will call it "stealing" and attempt to sue those homeowners who are engaging in the theft from honest, hardworking oil companies.

  42. A good site for home setups by Mostly+Monkey · · Score: 3, Informative

    www.homepower.com is a great site That always offer their current magazine as a free PDF download. Most issues will show several complete setups including diagrams, results, and pictures of several different types of setups. Just in the past I've seen solar, hydroelectric, thermal water heating, and recipies for making bio-diesal from waste cooking oil.

    --
    Chika Chik-ah... do-e ow ow.
  43. Screw this by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Once we can beam power from space to the surface, or just have a really long connecting tube (space elevator?) we just have to set up a MASSIVE solar array and we're all set.

    --
    Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  44. A little reality by Smallpond · · Score: 3, Insightful


    Let's see. The article talks about 200 MW plant. At 1kW/m^2 and 17% efficiency this means we need about 300 acres of mirrors. Seems real practical.

  45. Cost not the issue by GuyMannDude · · Score: 4, Funny

    You're missing the important point here. It's not that solar power is going to save the Japanese a lot of money. They're desperate to ween themselves off nuclear power using any means necessary. After all, if you had to contend with these three smashing your reactors on a yearly basis, wouldn't you be damn anxious to do something -- anything -- to stop relying on nuclear power?

    GMD

  46. We're doing it in CA... by jordandeamattson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Looking at our electrical bills over the last year averaging between $100 and $150 a month, I decided to look into putting in solar panels and here is what I found out.

    For 7K out of pocket (after tax credits, rebates, etc.), I can get a 2KW solar panel system with grid tie installed. This would give me, conservatively, about 496 KW hours a month in production. This would cut my usage by 2/3s. For 12K out of pocket, I can get a 3KW system which would give me about 720 KW hours a month in production and would completely clear my needs.

    With a grid tie system, I run my meter backwards when my production is greater than my demand. This means that any electricity that I generate is credited against my bill at the rate in play (I believe you also get peak pricing withi this setup) at the time I generate it.

    Bottom line, is that for a 12K investment, I can clear an average bill of $150 a month. This means that in a little over 6 1/2 years I have paid off the system. Or you can think of this as giving me an annual return of 12.5% on my initial investment. That is pretty damn good!

    1. Re:We're doing it in CA... by pj737 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Uhh, where do you get your info???!!! The solar panels on my roof are warranted for 25 years and not just to work, but they have to maintain a minimum of 80% original output at the end of the 25 year period.

      Amorphous panels produce enough power to offset the energy what was required to produce them in 4 years. It's less than 6 years for polycrystalline modules and 10 years for most monocrystalline solar modules. Nearly 100% of the terrestrial solar panels put into use in the late 70's/early 80's are still crankin and the quality of those panels are nowhere near that of current solar modules. Encapsulation technology has put solar panels in the class of concrete bricks - almost literally.

    2. Re:We're doing it in CA... by jordandeamattson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One of the biggest issues with the power grid is that the overall system has to be designed to deal with the highest demand placed on it. Usually, this is in the middle of summer on the hottest day of the year when your air conditioner is cranking, the curtains are closed, and you are using your lights inside.

      The incremental MWs required at that point are VERY expensive. More expensive than a solar power system. And of course, when things are running at peak demand is when I get peak output out of my system.

      Of course, it helps to cut your usage as well. This is why it makes sense for the power company to subsidize CF light, ettc. In my household we have done all of the easy wins. We have Energy Star appliances everywhere, we have put in place CF lights, we are using LCDs, but we are still burning through $100 to $150 of electrcity a month. So, it made sense for us to invest in a system that will conservatively last 30 years and will earn us 12.5% a year over those 30 years.

  47. Too late by riptalon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But of course it is all far too late. If realistic predictions are anything to go by, world oil production will peak in the next decade and then begin to fall at about 2 percent per year soon afterwards. Even if the US started building wind turbines (the most promising renewable energy source) at a rate of 20,000 a year right now, there would still be major problems. As it is, it looks like everyone is going to carry on as usual until the energy shortages begin, at which point there will not be enough spare energy available to undertake a massive renewable energy building program. Given that more than 4 billion of the worlds 6 billion people are only alive because of the energy subsidy of fossil fuels, which allows chemical fertilizers and mechanised agriculture, the resulting resource wars and famines are likely to be very bad.

  48. News Headline 2023 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    "No Blood For Sunlight"

    "US forces secure African sunbelt, restore stability"

  49. Damn nitpicking geeks... by re-geeked · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Doesn't anyone get it? Forget what the submitter tossed in, and the sunny-country factor, this tech is potentially the real deal for one reason:

    STORAGE

    That is, the plant they describe makes it possible to generate electricity any time, day or night, rain or shine. The only limit is that you can't run more than 13 hours without sun at one go.

    This means you can throttle it up and down according to need like a real power plant.

    According to their numbers (which aren't explained, but I assume are based on the 4 years they've been running the prototype plant) they can produce at $.05/kWh, which is below the retail price of electricity in the US, and probably much cheaper than in oil-hungry places like Japan. Also, since those costs are largely (wholly local) construction, land, and maintenance, sunny countries with low labor costs and some desert (India, Pakistan, Brazil, Mexico, Egypt, etc.) would realize an even better price.

    Then there are circumstances they don't mention working in their favor, like:

    World oil production is levelling off and may decrease if more easy reserves aren't found.

    Natural gas supplies aren't as plentiful as hoped.

    No one is building power plants at anything like the rate needed to keep up with demand, and

    Nuclear is still politically untouchable.

    Throw it all together, and a new plant that can produce at that price is a steal.

    Now, if they could float the mirrors around an offshore platform, even the land costs would disappear...

    --
    "You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
  50. solar power isn't enough by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 2, Interesting
    As others have noted, the average amount of power needed is on the order of about 15 terawatts per year, and going up. And to do it all with solar power, we'll need to cover an area the size of Alaska with panels.

    Obviously, that isn't going to happen now, tomorrow or ever.

    At the same time, using fossil fuels is clearly destructive and a Very Bad Idea.

    So, we have to look at other non-carbon producing energy sources. Nuculer?

    We could run breeder reactors that generate their own fuel - plutonium. Unfortunately, plutonium is also very handy for making really nastly bombs, and given the number of assholes in the world, this makes breeder reactors politically unfeasible for universal implmentation.

    So, then regular nuke plants? There's only so much Uranium on the planet and it is a fairly limited resource. I saw someone on Frontline say that if we converted over to nukes for 100% of the world's power, we'd run out of Uranium in less than 30 years.

    I'd also point out that we'd then be saddled with tons of nasty toxic crap that no one would want anywhere near them, and this nasty toxic crap will likely remain nasty toxic crap until sometime well after the next ice age. So, nuculer isn't going to do it to it.

    But we still have to power up 15 or 16 terawatts of Mr Coffee machines, hair curlers, computers, and all kinds o' junk and useless nonsense we clutter our lives with. So WHERE is the juice going to come from?

    1. by changing the needs base. removing automobiles from the fossil feul food chain by cracking water with solar energy to make hydrogen for hypercars will extend the life of fossil fuel energy production, and by reducing the demand for it, reduce its price.

    2. by maximising efficiency of use. devices that use less juice will be at a great advantage in the market place when:

    3. Energy markets are opened up to speculators who greedily distort energy prices to their own advantage, driving the need for greater efficiency to reduce dependency on the vampiric rat bastards.

    4. Homes are made to be energy self sufficient. Getting people off the grid is the most important thing we can do to reduce energy consumption. when people have to pay for their own power and have to live on an energy budget, they will wildly seek out hyper efficient appliances, and this will encourage non-fossil fuel devices. It will also encourge people to sell energy back to the vampiric grid.

    5. population reduction. We need to get rid of people. Gently and gradually. If we had one tenth the number of people roaming this shattered little planet, light use of carbon fuels (wood, methane, etc.) would even be permissible.

    So, that's what needs to be done if we ever expect to have a sustainble future that includes something resembling an industrial civilisation. Get rid of people, make energy expensive, and make people responsible for their energy consumption.

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  51. A couple of corrections by Once&FutureRocketman · · Score: 4, Informative
    Just a couple of notes, from someone who is currently selling solar for a living in California:


    - a "typical" residential system (2.4kW AC peak output) is going to run $9000-12000 after the state rebate
    - there's also a 15% state tax credit
    - the utility buyback of power is called "net metering" and they actually pay the retail price for the power (i.e. they credit you for power you produce at the same rate they charge you for what you use)

    As to one of the original, unaswered questions: if you don't have batteries (and you don't need them if you are grid connected), the only maintenance required is hosing off the panels a couple of times a year. The panels are warranteed for 25 years, and generally good for much longer.

    --

    "Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." -- Wernher von Braun

  52. OPEC lives by tenor · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Maybe one day we can have international power lines where all the countries with lots of sunshine provide power to the rest of the world? How cool would that be?"

    You mean Saudi Arabia and Iraq? Damn, they have all the energy!

    --
    Opinions change daily as new information arrives. Stay tuned.
  53. wind is viable; solar not yet by apsmith · · Score: 2, Informative

    For utility installation, you need capitalizations of at most $2000/kW (comparable to hydro and nuclear power plant capital investment requirements) - wind is there now, but solar has some distance to go to be usable as a utility power source. Currently solar photovoltaic systems go for about $2.00/PEAK Watt at best; given night time, solar angle, weather effects etc. and costs beyond the PV cells themselves, that translates to a $8000 to $10,000/kW capitalization requirement right now. PV systems have been dropping in price by about a factor of 2 every decade lately, so we have likely 30 years more development before they will be competitive at the utility installation level.

    A lot of this information is available from the Department of Energy's Energy Information Administration.

    On the other hand, if the cost of putting stuff in space was low enough, you would get peak watts all the time with a solar power satellite, so in principle that could be a feasible utility option in the near future.

    --

    Energy: time to change the picture.

  54. Global Cooling/Warming/ Greenhouse Effect by Vexar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, There's always a chance someone on Slashdot doesn't know this, but... Global Warming / Cooling is junk science. The proponents have blocked appropriate measures of earth's temperatures, which involve measuring the ocean's aggregate temperature, and have done so for about a decade now. The measurement would have involved a solitary underwater explosion, and the sound wave would determine the ocean's temperature (although salinity has an effect, it is far from a trivial science). This would be a tremendous mass of ocean water.
    The "Save the whales" crowd resurfaced decrying the untold damage to aquatic life by doing this, which is ridiculous compared to doing nothing to find out what is happening to our planet.
    Air temperature measurements are a waste of time, especially in urban areas, which have an elevated measure of heat because of the asphalt roofs, roads, etc. Measuring the ice caps is also silly, because their size changes seasonally, like with weather cycles. Everyone remembers the Halloween blizzard in Minnesota. And the 65 degree day in late December 15 years later. The only useful measurement would be of a volume of water (not a tiny pocket of air) the size of the ocean, at the equator. But that's being blocked bye environmental activists; they must have something to hide; what's a few deaf gray whales if it will save the planet?
    Did you bother to mention that the various "greenhouse gasses" are mere precursors to tropospheric ozone, which is the hazardous smog that is discussed at the Weather Underground ? All of the sudden, ozone is bad and good.
    I read a statistic once that in order to be entirely solar with our power, we would cover the earth 11% over with the dumb cells. Considering the nasty chemicals involved in the manufacture of solar cells, and that solar cells are not simply recycled, and fail in a decade or so (fragile materials), I can't imagine why any earth-first crowd would want yet another major source of toxic waste.
    I have long thought that the only solar cells of any use on our planet (since the stuff in space is pretty handy, I'll admit) are the green ones in my lawn and garden. They produce oxygen, which every living animal needs. If you live in a newly developed neighborhood (like in suburban USA), the best thing you can do for your environment is plant plenty of trees on your lawn. Sure, it means raking, but in my neighborhood, I have 100+ year-old oak trees, and they are positively enchanting. They keep the sun off my lawn so I don't have to water, and they keep the sun off my roof (remember, these are mature oak trees) which reduces my AC costs. McDonalds passes out seedling trees on Earth Day, so it really doesn't cost you anything. Sure, it'd make more sense if they passed them out on Arbor Day, but no one remembers when that is, despite it being the more venerable day of commemoration by a good century or more.