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Slow And Steady Leads To Windows Refund Success
linuxwrangler writes "By proceeding carefully, documenting everything, being persistent and keeping his cool, Steve Oualline was awarded a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. See his Linux Journal howto for the details. Hopefully this is the first of many victories."
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for on. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a written letter describing what was said and why you're unhappy with it. Remember you are creating a record for the judge.
At some point in this process you'll either get your refund (rare) or you'll realize the manufacturer is going to be totally unreasonable. So now is the time to pr
HOWTO: Getting a Windows Refund in California Small Claims Court
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 by Steve Oualline
Thanks to good records and a Small Claims judge, Steve Oualline got a $199 refund for his unused copy of Microsoft Windows XP. One Linux user's story shows how to establish a good refund case.
Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do. In this article, I describe some techniques you can use to get your refund, including how to deal with the manufacturers (and all their excuses) and going to small claims court.
The first step to getting a refund is to ask for on. In most every case, you immediately hit a wall of stupidity and evasion when you do this. Dealing with this part properly is important, though, because you are building a record for the court case that may follow. Your job is to be as reasonable as possible and to make them look as dumb, inflexible and unreasonable as possible.
It's important to know what excuses the manufactures will come up with and how to counter them.
Excuse: You aren't entitled to a refund.
Answer: Then why did the software come with a license that said I was. Isn't the license a binding contract?
Excuse: Contact Microsoft about the refund.
Answer: The license said contact the manufacturer. That's you. Why should I contact Microsoft when they said to contact you?
Excuse: The software comes bundled with the hardware and can't be separated.
Answer: Then why did you give me a license that said they could?
Excuse: We'll give you a refund, but not for the retail price.
Answer: I paid retail for the computer and the software.
Excuse: The software is only worth $10.
Answer: Okay. Send me the check.
Although this doesn't look like it, you've won a major victory with these words--that check is written evidence of the fact that the manufacturer owes you a refund. If you go to court, you don't have to establish that the company owes you something. All you have to do is establish the amount.
But before you do that, you should follow up with the company. There are several ways of doing this.
Follow up #1: I got your check for $10. You say Windows XP costs only $10, so I'd like to buy 100 copies please. To whom do I make out the check for $1000?
You won't sell me Windows XP for $10? I'll have to pay $199 for it? Then that means the check you sent me is too low. Please send me a check for the full amount.
Follow up #2: I got your check for $10. But your $10 price is far lower that the retail price of Windows XP ($199). Because of the vast difference in the amounts, I'm going to have to ask you for a copy of your purchase contract with Microsoft so I can verify the price.
You can't verify the price. Well, I can only find one documented price and that's $199. You'll have to pay that amount or document your price.
One company tried this excuse with me. When I asked for documentation, the customer service representative said, "I don't have access to price information".
"Then how did you come up with the $10 price figure?"
"I just know it's the right amount."
"So what you are really doing is guessing. Well, my guess is the software is worth $1,000,000. Tell you what, let's split the difference. Send me a check for $500,005."
Excuse: We'll give you a refund but that applies to only Microsoft Windows, not the other bundled software.
Answer: No problem. Please provide me with a copy of all the other software on another disk so I can install it under Linux using the Wine program.
In all of these cases, follow up the phone conversation with a written letter describing what was said and why you're unhappy with it. Remember you are creating a record for the judge.
At some point in this process you'll either get your refund (rare) or you'll realize
People in Austin, TX, have been getting Windows refunds from Dell for years. I've seen comments here on slashdot over the years too.
1. All the documents he had
2. A citation to his case as added support for your complaint
Citing his case alone won't help you -- you have to prove that your case is the same as his and then the citation of his award will make it easier for the judge to rule in your favor (because he's not breaking any new ground). Although, I'm not sure this judge was really thinking that he was breaking new ground when he awarded Steve the judgement.
And of course....IANAL, but I work for Westlaw.com :-)
...and that's the way the cookie crumbles.
No, then you'll have to pay less for new computers. Also, if you RTFA (yes, the site's slashdotted, but someone posted the full text in another comment), you'll notice that the article specifically notes "Getting a Microsoft Windows refund from a manufacturer is seldom easy to do." The work involved in getting that $199 refund is not cost-effective in any sense of the word.
If you want a x86 based laptop, getting a decent one without Windows is a chore, especially if you're like me and equate "a decent one" as "it has the Thinkpad logo on it".
I recently bought an Asus L3800Cx - it surely doesn't have a Thinkpad logo on it, but I like to think of it as a pretty decent one. It's quite powerful, it doesn't get too hot, it wasn't too expensive either; and there was no form of MS Windows in the package. (I was pretty surprised - and pleased.)
we discovered a new way to think.
Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the
> 2) The guy was looking for a crusade to fight in the first place. If he was a proficent enough computer user to be able to run Linux, he should just as easily been able to buy a white box system or built his own from scratch.
When was the last time you built a laptop from scratch?...
so it goes on their credit history as an unpaid legal judgement against them.
that really fucks up their credit rating... and will hurt them far more than a $199 refund ever could. typical shady company will have a very difficult time as long as the unpaid judgement remains on their record.
That's enough Bill. You can go back to your .Net forum now...
The whole point is that a lot of systems cannot be bought without the operating system. That's the deal Microsoft has roped hardware vendors into. So this is an attempt to undo that.
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
"What percentage of people who intend to install Linux are going to jump through these hoops?"
As opposed to buying a computer without WindowsXP, and never spending the $199 in the first place?
Oops, forgot, you can't do that. Even reputable computer shops now insist that you show them your Windows license before they'll allow you to buy an OS-less computer. Pity that such practises were outlawed with the microsoft settlement, but doesn't seem to have stopped anyone.
As for Dell, near-enough the only corporate supplier, good luck getting anything without WindowsXP pro. Even if you can find redhat, they'll still charge you for the windows license.
The license didn't specify that you got a refund if you installed Linux, smarty. It offered a refund if the license terms were unacceptable.
It doesn't matter what Linux is, though most Merkins what read a newspaper do know, I reckon. The judge was making a quick, subjective read on plaintiff's truthfulness. The quick and clean answer is what got him his judgement. That and the no-show. Small claims is a gimme when the other party doesn't honor their summons.
illegitimii non ingravare
I'm sure there are more out there... Just pop over to ResellerRatings.com and search for notebook or laptop.
bytesmythe
Hypocrisy is the resin that holds the plywood of society together.
-- Scott Meyer
Read the article.
Since you can't get Windows for that price separate from the computer, and they can't document how much they paid for it (because of their secret contracts), you get the list price.
Engineering and the Ultimate
RTFA. He got court costs (~$135) in the decision too.
AHHHHHHH! I'm burning with goodness again!
- Reakk, Sluggy Freelance
If they set the price to $0.00, then you can buy the computer, return it the next day, and when they bitch and moan about how you didn't return the XP CD, that you'll give them back the same amount they charged you for it - $0.00.
I was going to be a smart ass and give a link to the license, as I thought it would be on the first page on Google for "Windows XP license". Well, I'm on page 5 and not found it yet. I know there is a site out there that collects these things, but it's kind of surprising that it's so hard to find a copy (unless you have XP installed and running in which case you already accepted it).
Actually, it might be a good idea to also bring a boxed Linux distribution to court, just in case.
So if he wanted to be able to talk about it so bad, and even turned down the $199 offer so that, in part, he could; why in the world is he not saying who he won this judgement against? He seems to be going out of his way to avoid doing exactly what he claimed he wanted to be able to do.
According to the author's chronology of events, he had already begun the filing in Small Claims Court (costing $135) for getting his money back, and he mentioned this as part of the reason for not accepting the settlement.
Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
Toshiba laptops are sealed with a printed license. If you don't agree, you must return the whole computer. I believe this was done exactly to prevent claims like this. If more people try to get a refund, I believe more and more companies will just seal the complete computer/laptop.
You're misinterpreting the oral contract.
He agreed to the settlement - the cost of the software - in good faith. The cost of the software as quoted by the company was $10.
The company later demonstrated that had incorrectly quoted the value, since they wouldn't sell him the software at that cost.
Therefore, he hadn't reneged on the deal at all, but the company had fraudulently quoted a deflated cost in order to reduce the agreed settlement amount. Had the company agreed to sell him 200 copies of XP for $2000, he'd have no case.
These words for Google searches:
Windows XP EULA full text
(Available in %systemroot%\system32\eula.txt for those who have already installed)
---CUT HERE---
Microsoft Windows XP Professional
END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
IMPORTANT-READ CAREFULLY: This End-User
License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you
(either an individual or a single entity) and Microsoft
Corporation for the Microsoft software product identified above,
which includes computer software and may include associated
media, printed materials, "online" or electronic documentation,
and Internet-based services ("Product"). An amendment or
addendum to this EULA may accompany the Product. YOU AGREE TO BE
BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY
INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE
PRODUCT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL
OR USE THE PRODUCT; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR
PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND.
1. GRANT OF LICENSE. Microsoft grants you the following rights
provided that you comply with all terms and conditions of
this EULA:
* Installation and use. You may install, use, access,
display and run one copy of the Product on a single
computer, such as a workstation, terminal or other device
("Workstation Computer"). The Product may not be used
by more than two (2) processors at any one time on any
single Workstation Computer. You may permit a maximum
of ten (10) computers or other electronic devices (each
a "Device") to connect to the Workstation Computer to
utilize the services of the Product solely for File and
Print services, Internet Information Services, and remote
access (including connection sharing and telephony
services). The ten connection maximum includes any
indirect connections made through "multiplexing" or other
software or hardware which pools or aggregates
connections. Except as otherwise permitted by the
NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote Desktop
features described below, you may not use the Product
to permit any Device to use, access, display or run other
executable software residing on the Workstation Computer,
nor may you permit any Device to use, access, display,
or run the Product or Product's user interface, unless
the Device has a separate license for the Product.
* Mandatory Activation. The license rights granted under this
EULA are limited to the first thirty (30) days after
you first install the Product unless you supply
information required to activate your licensed copy in
the manner described during the setup sequence of the
Product. You can activate the Product through the use
of the Internet or telephone; toll charges may apply.
You may also need to reactivate the Product if you modify
your computer hardware or alter the Product. There are
technological measures in this Product that are designed
to prevent unlicensed or illegal use of the Product.
You agree that we may use those measures.
* Storage/Network Use. You may also store or install a copy
of the Product on a storage device, such as a network
server, used only to install or run the Product on your
other Workstation Computers over an internal network;
however, you must acquire and dedicate an additional
license for each separate Workstation Computer on or
from which the Product is installed, used, accessed,
displayed or run. A license for the Product may not be
shared or used concurrently on different Workstation
Computers.
* Reservation of Rights. Microsoft reserves all rights not
expressly granted to you in this EULA.
2. UPGRADES. To use a Product iden
locus
system:systemroot\system32\eula.txt Mine is even a little bit different than those two: you agree to be bound by the terms of this eula by installing, copying, or otherwise using the software. if you do not agree, do not install, copy, or use the software; you may return it to your place of purchase for a full refund, if applicable. Windows XP Pro, Build 2600, SP 1 It would be interesting if the EULA Changed with service packs :). Gotta dig the build number.
LOL - the copy/pasted section of the agreement created this error when posting:
Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
... got to an small court claims, and requested that the judge force them to release how much they are paying to MS for WinXP licenses in order to set the amount you are entitled to in accordance to the EULA...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.