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Novell To Cease NetWare Development?
Karl Cocknozzle writes "CNET News is reporting that Novell may discontinue NetWare following the purchase of Linux software company Ximian - for details on the purchase, see the recent Slashdot article. Novell plans to run its NetWare services - such as eDirectory and Secure Identity Management - on the Red Hat and SuSE Linux distributions."
The company name 'Scovell' *does* have a certain ring to it.
This really shouldn't shock anyone. Novell has already stated that NetWare 7 will allow the installer to choose between Linux or NetWare kernels. Can you say migration path?
The recent Novell Connections magazine talked about their Linux strategy up to NetWare 7. So far, no one has talked much about what comes after. With Novell's history of shifting strategies, I think I'll just take it one day at a time.
the no
This has already been predicted several months ago. This is probably a good thing for Novell, as they no longer have to focus on the ENTIRE OS, just their proprietary services, and therefore can make more advances such as further seamless integration with windows clients and the addition of seamless integration for UNIX/Linux clients. While never particularly a fan of the entire OS itself, I've always admired the capabilities of the Netware solution. This really looks like a good sign for the future.
Netware has been dead for some years now. THe advent of Linux has basically killed the use of Netware. The only place Netware is still installed is in already existing places, where, indeed it performs upto its reputation.
Remeber this story about the Novell server that was hidden in a walled off section of the University of North Carolina?
The found it after 4 years of it being missing, and still working perfectly, never dropping packets and doing it's job perfectly. Now that's what I call uptime!
I wonder if they will wall it back up after they put SuSE on it?
MMORPG fan-boy? Prove your worth
From the article:
"NetWare will continue to exist with a large customer base, and we will continue to maintain it as long as customers want it," said Chris Stone, vice chairman at Novell. Stone said he thought NetWare support would continue for the foreseeable future, even if development does not. "There are still people using (the) VMS (operating system) and minicomputers. Just because development stops, doesn't mean people stop using it."
It's nice to see a company that admits it will have to continue to support an old product and will continue to do so. However, it's yet to be seen how long this attitude will last.
But at least they have decided not to follow Microsoft's precedent for dumping all support for old products when new ones roll around.
Good news, at least for now.
My cousin, who works for Novell, said everyone at Novell was worried that the purchase spelled the end of Netware. The management held meetings to assure everyone that this was *not* the case.
I'm not sure we can know one way or the other. Companies can change their minds very quickly. Anyway, FWIW, that's the scoop I heard from an employee.
...this mean they will be SCO's next target?
Speaking at Defcon 12 - Credit Card Networks Revisted: Pen
Back in the day, Netware was very nice. I remember using it at my first intern position in the windows 3.1 days. I guess the world has moved on. Its strange to think that many of the /. crowd has never seen it in action.
The moves indicate a major shift in strategy for Novell, which only a year ago positioned Linux as the enemy and didn't show up at LinuxWorld. Now company executives are saying open-source software is the future for the industry and their company.
:)
I guess Novell pulled a smart move of "Can't beat 'em, join 'em!" a year ago. Got to love the history points amoung articles making the view point a lot easier to understand. I "think"
This space is not for rent.
i have been trying to get my school district to look at linux for a variety of solutions. i get the same anti-linux crap. my district is a novell shop, from netware to gropwise, etc. i feel justified. almosty makes me want to send the idiots the articles. why the hell not. i teach history. they can't fsck with me.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
It's one thing to move to a services-based model.
However, it's another matter entirely to move to a model wehre instead of shipping a large, propeitary, unique product no one else has [NetWare] you are providing essentially a pure service-- you are taking products anyone else could have picked up and assembled (ximian, etc) and assembling them in a way that anyone could have done, but probably someone not doing it professionally could not do in as nice, coherent or usable a psckgage-- is another matter altogether.
Now, given, this service will surely make lots of people much happier than they would have been either under NetWare or Outlook. But it's still a very bold, risky move.
Kudos to Novell for having the courage.
-- super ugly ultraman
as a (former) huge Novell fan who still supports a few Netware clients (& runs netware at home), I say
THANK GOD.
I like the Novell kernel - but unfortunately programmers have gotten worse & don't want to take the time required to properly code drivers or modules for it. Everything runs at RING 0 - this means it's fast. It also means it's not a good market for developing software on it.
The Linux kernel has gotten Pretty Darned Good - with all of the modern features necessary in a state-of-the-art kernel. My complaint with it is that you can't scale Linux to multiple servers (from a management standpoint) like you can Netware.
Linux with Novell's style of enterprise management (eDirectory, cross-platform tools, open access to data, outstanding workstation management tools, etc.) would be a dream system to administer. It would also be innovative enough to handily compete with Microsoft's lack of enterprise management tools.
If I remember reading right, Novell sold the rights to license Unix to SCO, recieving a certain amount of profits from SCO every year.
If this is right, I assume that Novell also retains ownership rights to Unix. I wonder how this story affects the SCO/Linux and now Redhat/SCO lawsuits, Redhat being one of distributions Novell choose.
Looks like they're also going to port GroupWise to Linux, so we'll have yet another new groupware, email, calendar thingie to play with.
I've been waiting for something like this. This renders all of our NetWare servers obsolete as we can run eDirectory and the likes on top of our favorite operating system. I really like to see a product list of what they gonna put out. I don't want to see a new distribution, just the rpm's m'am. This changes everything(!). They've already made some good moves about bundling NAMP (Lamp on NetWare) in NetWare 6.5 with loads of open source tools. The Enterprise is more open minded then it was just a year ago. Strategic, IMHO.
Girls are strange. They don't come with a man page.
-- Michael Mattsson
The poster asks a valid question.
Novell (who has been quoted as saying that the issue between them and SCO isn't completely over) is now investing in Linux as part of their business model.
They have different roots than a Linux distro house like RedHat or SuSE, but they'll eventually push out their own Novell Linux distro. Yeah, my money is on Novell continuing to have issues with SCO, and vise versa.
One hell of a game of chicken.
-- I'd say your post was about 3 monkeys, 18 minutes.
At least, that's a big indicator for the industry that nobody in the UNIX business takes SCO FUD seriously.
One might think that Novell knows what they are talking about when it comes down to UNIX IP...
Of course, none of us need this indicator, but for the managers out there with very little technical knowledge about to say "Hmmm, Linux, let's wait until the SCO problem is settled", that's a pretty good indicator that SCO is just a piece of shit.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Novell Denies It's Killing Off NetWare
Network software and service vendor Novell, meanwhile, upped the ante of its bet on Linux by announcing that it was porting its GroupWise groupware and collaboration software to the open-source OS.
Novell, which has been rushing to shift to Linux, announced Tuesday that its GroupWise collaboration platform will run entirely on Linux in the first half of 2004, when both client and server software is finalized. The Linux version of the GroupWise client is currently in beta, while the server software will enter beta in September.
GroupWise, which is part of Novell's Nterprise suite, does e-mail, calendaring, instant messaging, document management, and workflow management. Currently it runs on Windows and Novell's own NetWare operating systems. The Linux edition will also integrate with Ximian's Evolution collaboration client, promised Novell. The Provo, Ut.-based Novell acquired Ximian earlier this week.
Novell's pitch is just the latest in a round of moves by companies to port their collaboration and workgroup software to Linux. Last week, IBM Lotus said that it would include Linux support in the next version of its Domino Server, which is scheduled to debut as part of Notes 6.5 this fall.
"Enterprises are looking at Linux and open standard platforms for their messaging and collaboration applications," said Maurene Caplan Grey, a research director at Gartner.
Novell also announced that it's added support for Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS and SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 8 to its eDirectory directory service software.
eDirectory 8.7.1, which will be available August 8, will add support for these two Linux distributions to the already-available support for Windows, Solaris, NetWare, and AIX. Additional authentication features, including support for biometrics, smart cards, and tokens, will also be part of the upcoming edition. eDirectory will be priced at $2 per user, said Novell, with volume discounts available.
Also at LinuxWorld, reports surfaced that Novell was taking an even bigger step towards Linux by discontinuing development for its flagship NetWare network operating system.
That talk is all wrong, said Novell's president and CEO, Jack Messman on Wednesday.
"Novell is not dropping NetWare, we're adding Linux," said Messman.
Novell's shipping NetWare 6.5, the most recent version of its OS, next week, added Messman, and when it debuts NetWare 7.0 -- which is still in development -- the operating system will support both the NetWare and the Linux kernels.
"NetWare is not going away. Period," said Messman.
John Kerry is a Joke!
In future versions they have promised Netware will either run on a Netware kernel or a Linux kernel. Netware 8 may only have the option of a Linux kernel but Novell can still call it Netware if they want.
The question is how tightly they can wrap there added value services like eDirectory, iPrint, iManager, etc without having to GPL them as well.
Cheers
VikingBrad
I suspect Novell is certainly up to something. Why? Novell wants to use linux as its default OS for the new netware product which will run on Linux.
But there's a snag. SCO is suing IBM, and possibly countersuing Red Hat. So what's a nervous Novell supposed to do?
Sue SCO. This will probably come at a shock to more than a few of you. But remember when SCO announced that it had ownership to the copyright to UNIX and didn't really transfer the copyrright to SCO?
First there was This statement. Then came the retraction.
In this article Chris Stone says:
The funny thing is that upon reading the retraction carefully, Novell never said SCO was right. It was carefully worded. It said, that the documents "appeared" to be valid. If you read it one way, it agrees with SCO. If you read it another it doesn't.
Interesting, No?
"Novell also announced on Tuesday that it would be porting its entire GroupWise collaboration software, a product that significantly overlaps with Ximian's Evolution client, to Linux. The applications handle e-mail, scheduling and contact information to keep employees organized. Although Novell intends to support both software packages, the eventual goal is to have only one, said Stone."
Evolution is presently distributed under the GPL, so of course Evolution in its present state can not be "closed".
But, as far as I can tell, Novell Groupwise is not open source. Is this correct? I admit that I do not have any experience with their products.
What I am worried about is that the above quote is meant to suggest that the technologies in Evolution will be integrated with Novell's own proprietary solution, and that future development of Evolution as an open source product will be called into question, or will be seriously slowed.
Are these fears justified, or am I missing something here?
.sig Realistic fines for copyright in
Your fears are not justified, you are missing something - what's happening with other largish corporations working with OSS.
IBM have ported Linux to their s390 the code is still open. That's how GPL works, and IBM benefit from community contributions, peer review, reduced development costs and all the benefits that OSS brings.
Apple use OSS software extensively in OSX. Stuff that includes Samba, CUPS, OpenSSH, XFree86, and in all these cases Apple returns the code to their respective projects and honours the GPL.
SGI have moved lots of their formally commercial code to the GPL.
It's when a Corp "Gets it" that they cooperate and participate with the OSS methodoligies. It does work, and does save them and make them money.
I have little doubt that Novell will eventually, or already have "Got it" and move key parts of their NDS and Groupware technologies to GPL bound Open code.
Novell is a very valuable friend for the OSS community to have.
Just one gripe; I mentioned this story yesterday!!??
I for one hope they will dump the old console interface as it sucks pretty bad as it is.
For years it used to run in a single thread which would hang on the first defunct NLM you'd try to unload during shutdown or whatever. If you're smart and know which module is causing trouble on a NetWare box, you unload all other critical modules, and then the defunct one lastly before downing.
It was only in Netware 5 that you got the option of spawning more consoles and dismounting your volumes when things got out of hand; you can use these to unload a couple of the more critical applications before you have to turn of the power, because you won't get the server downed normally.
Some POSIX flavour added to Netware wouldn't hurt. An option to kill - and I mean kill - a process would be a great improvement. It may be possible already (I'm still on Netware 5), but then I'm just stupid, aren't I. :-)
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
I've asked our novell representative in the netherlands about this. :
he forwarded me an e-mail from the CEO
A recent news report coming out of the LinuxWorld Conference suggests that Novell is considering stopping development of NetWare. We're not. Despite Novell's firm and frequent statements concerning continued development and support for NetWare, discussion of Novell's Linux strategy invariably leads to concern over Novell's NetWare commitment. Let us put those concerns to rest.
As we've said repeatedly, Novell is not dropping NetWare, we're adding Linux. Novell's focus is on the customer, and the customer wants choice. As we stated in April of this year, and again yesterday at LinuxWorld, we will make Novell's services available both on a NetWare kernel and a Linux kernel going forward. Novell has a large installed base of NetWare users, and we'll continue to serve those customers as we've always done. NetWare 6.5, the latest version of NetWare with powerful new services for business continuity, open source, Web application services and "virtual office" capabilities, begins shipping next week. . We have also announced that NetWare 7.0 is in development, that it will run on both the NetWare and Linux kernels, and that we will have more to say on it when it is appropriate. This is hardly a sign of reduced commitment
NetWare is not going away. Period.
Jack Messman
Chairman, President and CEO
Novell, Inc.
You're missing one item. The examples corporations listed above didn't *buy* the development team. This means Novell will own the copyright to the code, and can stop releasing it under the GPL. Yes, we will always have the existing code, but they could theoretically enhance it, and make it closed. I have no idea if this will happen, but it could.
Keep in mind, the SCO you're talking about is the SCO from the 80s in name only. The original Santa Cruz Operation was bought out by Caldera, and after floundering in both the Linux and Unix markets, Caldera renamed itself The SCO Group. There's actually not a whole lot of the original SCO left in all of that mess.
Netware was killed by a demand for application servers that it was ill-suited for and did not have (or had in small, unstable numbers). A lot of places switched to NT4 because of the wealth of applications that could be run on it concurrently with filesharing. Web servers and client-server databases were the biggest culprits.
Linux and NT4 filled the bill there and as a bonus for smaller organizations, could do file and print at the same time.
I think if Novell had moved the filesharing and directory components to an application model instead of the blended OS/application model that it was, and made filesharing/directory available on Linux and NT4 with a less expensive licensing scheme they'd still be out there as contenders for new business, and perhaps keeping marketshare from Microsoft.
I'm not knocking Netware for it base usage -- file and print with a solid directory and security model -- for that, even a 6 year old copy of 4.11 is superior to Win2k. But the fact that it made a poor application server, if you could find reasonably stable applications to run on top of it, is where it failed badly.
In larger organizations I can see why they kept it going -- the directory is great, and larger organizations find it easier to manage a large, heterogeneous environment anyway, so adding Linux or NT or whatever boxes for application serving wasn't as much a cost or management issue as it was in smaller organizations that sought greater efficiencies.
My wife had took over the technology at a school that was still based on netware. It had been years since I had seen the stuff, but I was drafted anyway. After spending a couple of years on it, I cheered when the school system dropped it. While the server is fairly stable it offers no compelling value to justify it's cost. Additionally, the resources to maintain it are specialized and expensive. Again, this is unjustifiable. Everything that Novell offered is built into every major OS (they only used directory, file, and print services). In terms of stability, there had to be a specialized guy out there every few weeks to fix the thing.
I think this is a great move by novell. From what I have seen, Netware as an OS only detracts from their bottom line. It forces them to port everything to their proprietary platform. Adopting linux as the underlying OS makes the platform more flexible and adds value to their services.
Its multi-processor support is way behind everyone elses. You might as well just run single processor.
Virtual memory sucks, too. But then, virtual memory sucks most of the time.
As you've noted, ring 0 is fast. But any module can take out the entire server. ARCServe is notable for doing this fairly frequently.
Now the good things. It uses DOS to load itself. This might sound bad, but it makes troubleshooting a problem very easy.
Also, everything is a module. You can find the exact module that is causing the problem. You can make sure that module does not load. This gives NetWare its amazing uptime.
The heart of Netware is NDS, Novell directory Services, and it's not really important what operating system or kernel it runs on. You can run NDS on NT (not really logical, since you've already shelled out all that money) or Linux. When NDS 1st came out, it was light years ahead of what Microsoft had to offer. However, Netware, the OS, was not the friendliest environment to work in and the number of people who know it in and out is dwinding. BUT there's an army of people who know Linux and are willing to help you for free or a fee. A Microsoft network admin is not going to rip out his "investment" in NT/2000 and replace it with something unfamiliar. However, a unix/linux admin may consider doing so if it's offered on a platform that he or she is familiar with - Linux os, x-windows GUI and flawless integration with the rest of his unix and Linux enviroment. Obviously Windows desktops will be able to authenticate into NDS and use resoruces on Linux boxes...AND maybe some day in the future the admin will be able to get rid of the Windows 2000 Professional/XP desktop and replace it with...you guessed it, Ximian desktop + easy software distribution and management.
If I was a Network Manager at a small, 50-500 person company, I would definitely consider ripping out NT and replacing it Novell's offerings some time down the road.
Client sites I've worked at didn't roll Novell servers because it's Novell, but because it's a stable directory management/resource sharing appliance. They could care less what kernel us under the hood, as long as it remains easy to administer and stable.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.