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Will Classic Games Disappear Forever?
Knightfall writes "Who doesn't remember pumping tons of quarters into games like Joust and Tron? I shudder at the thought of what could have become of that large quantity of money. Well, it seems remembering those games may soon be all that is left. As companies are dropping support, but not property rights to our old favorites, many are in danger of vanishing forever. There are a few trying to prevent this though. An article in Wired tells a little about it. I for one still find these games, on a pure gameplay level, better than most anything out there currently. What can we do to prevent them from no longer being available?"
MAME
>What can we do to prevent them from no longer being
>available?
Preserve them and actively play/"advertise them".
That's what I do.
And that what's a LOT of people are doing - www.vaps.org
PS. Emulator is *NOT* a substitute for a classic arcade game.
There's always a large collection of ROMs on the Internet. I'd say that almost any old game exists on numerous hard drives across the world, whether those people own the actual machine and have a legal right to have those ROMs or not. I guess piracy will preserve these classics.
Of course ROMs for newer games after they went 3D are mostly uncommon since MAME doesn't really support all that yet. There's a gap there I guess that's in danger... somewhere after 2D and before what's currently in arcades right now.
People also tend to hold on to their old console systems. I myself have a CoCo3, Atari 7800 (with 2600 and 7800 carts), Sega Master System (with 3d glasses), Sega CD/Genesis/32X, Super Nintendo, Nintendo, and more. And guess what? They're not going anywhere. Classic games will always live on through garage sales and eBay auctions and emulators. They won't die because people out there still do care about them and enjoy them.
Who doesn't remember pumping tons of quarters into games like Joust and Tron?
Me.
Shortly after my video game phase, I got heavily into pot.
Buy one?
Seriously, buy a used machine, learn to keep it repaired and running (or find someone who can), and enjoy!
I enjoy classic pinball machines and that's what I did. I play them almost every day, worth every penny.
Beta sux! Join the Slashcott! http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4760465&cid=46173047
When a product is no longer available for purchase, there is nothing wrong with violating the copyright. Technically, I'm sure there is. Morally, there is nothing wrong at all.
I can sleep at night 'stealing' ROMs for product that is no longer available.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
do you find these games better than anything from a gameplay perspective because that's the case or because you have the whole 'happy memories while growing up' angle?
For every revolutionary game (think Robotron, tempest, bosconian, pacman) there were many others that we remember fondly only because we have other memories associated with them (like summers growing up, friends etc. etc.)
-- the cake is a lie
MAME is perfectly legal. The problem is the ROMs. Gaming companies have missed the boat bigtime by not offering the ROMs legally for a small fee (or free).
I'd pay a few bucks for the official MAME-compatible ROMs for my favorite games, though, since they are all available freely, why pay at this point.
Start collecting classic games and learn how to repair them.
If nothing else collect the ROM's. I know they're copyrighted, but if they're going to let them die then F'em. What the companies need to do is simply come out and sell the roms they currently own or license someone to handle it for them, stick them on a CD and sell it for $10-20 with a copy of MAME included. I'd pay $20 for a licensed library of SNES or Atari console roms.
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
The CAPS project is starting with the Amiga, preserving everything it can. Not just the games, but archiving scans of the boxes and manuals as well. They are also storing the disks in a format which retains the copy protection of the original.
Many of the biggest games companies today started on the Amiga, so this history needs to be preserved. The CAPS project will be moving onto other formats later.
I used to work for one of those companies and I know that these days its heritage has largely been forgotten. It's obvious that the companies who created the games in the first place don't really care very much about anything other than the latest sale. Any attempt to preserve these games should be lauded.
Just look at the situation with the BBC who lost some early Dr.Who episodes and loads of Beatles footage because they didn't see the value in it at the time.
But if I were to ditch this system, it would be like shutting down the gates to a dozen little worlds: The Infocom* adventures, and the early Ultima games (including Warren Spector's early masterpiece Martian Dreams), and oddities like Hidden Agenda.
On the other hand . . . while it's nice to think about playing these old games again, I never seem to get around to it. If a flood destroyed my old PC and the associated disks, I really wouldn't feel that bad. It would almost be a relief.
If there were a computer game museum, I donate all this stuff in an instant. But I suspect that I wouldn't be alone. They'd probably be overwhelmed with donations.
Oye,gevault . . .
Stefan Jones
* I recently purchased at a flea market an unopened Infocom collection on CD-ROM. But dang it, the installer wouldn't work under Win98!
The companies that are dropping support for these games are doing so for a simple reason: They are no longer profitable and are therefore supporting them produces nothing but expense. The property rights remain but the game becomes a victim of bitrot and disappears forever.
The solution is to make these games profitable for the companies that own them. One way of doing this is to handle game rights the same way the Blender rights were handled: Get a bunch of people to donate a little bit of money and then make the company an offer to buy the rights, source code, schematics, and whatever other property makes up the games. To the companies, the choice is simple: Either throw away this game that nobody (they think) cares about, or let a bunch of geeks buy it off them for some money.
I think an organization of some sorts could be put together to accept donations and buy the rights to all kinds of old products, not just games. Anything "classic" or still useful. People donating money could specify all kinds of products they would like to preserve. Kind of like those, "We buy old houses!" or, "We buy old cars!" companies.
I hate to sound bitter, but I've heard quite a bit about folks who claim to "love" classics and want to keep them alive, and then take minimal to no steps to actually accomplish this. They have fond memories, but their actual love for the games has died away and in truth they're indifferent to the demise of what I daresay is history that is no less valuable than, say, a government document from the 1800s.
In my entertainment center, under my TV, VCR, DVD player, and newer consoles, is an Apple II Plus with one 5.25" drive and a joystick -- all that's needed to play games like Boulder Dash, Galaxian, Joust, Mario Bros., Flip Out, Night Mission Pinball, Miner 2049er, Congo Bongo, etc. I have literally hundreds of games on 5.25" disks and I actually play them at least two or three times a week. I've made redundant copies (some games on as many as three different floppies) just in case a disk goes bad. I love these games, I play them, and I take several steps to ensure they survive, at least until I die.
How many others can say they've done the same?
The coolest voice ever.
Oops, what the hell was I thinking?!!!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
additionally, abandonware only encompasses old software that has been released into the public domain... old software that hasn't is known as "old warez"...
also, a lot of companies don't release the rights to games because, even though they don't have any plans for the games yet, they may have an idea for something they could do with them, later. however, if they don't defend their copyright in the present, they'll have a *lot* harder time defending it in the future...
personally, i think that copyrights over software should only last five years, and can perhapes be renewable for anohter five years after that. anything longer then that, and the company would have a very hard time trying to demonstrate that piracy of that piece of software has been harming them. well, except in the case of microsoft and windows 3.1, since we all know windows 3.1 to be completly surperior, in every way, to windows 9x and beyond, and since no one would buy an inferior OS when they could instead by a surperior one, hehe :)
anyways, we should take the time to thank all the companies that have made their software public domain... rockstar studios for grandtheft auto, and recently, Revolution Software for releasing Beneath a Steel Sky and helping Scumm VM emulate it :)
and speaking of Scumm VM, Scumm VM 0.5.1 has been released (the last slashdot article mentioned 0.5.0): http://scummvm.sourceforge.net/
So did I. Loved it, even. Yet, as is often stated on Slashdot in discussions of other matters (mostly those concerning the RIAA or MPAA), noone has the right to make a profit. If people don't want these games, what can we do? Force them to want them? Remembering the Good Old Days is all too frequently a sign of a common and very dangerous disease called Nostalgia, and a known symptom of that condition is a refusal to acknowledge that what one likes about a certain thing may be more due to associations rather than its intrinsic nature. I'm sure people will root for Doom and Warcraft in much the same way in 20 years, while not bothering much for the titles we (as in me and other old-time farts) care for so deeply, or, for that matter, for the new ultra-hyper-flashy game that we can't even conceive of today.
With this I'm not saying that fighting to keep some culture alive is always vain and pointless, only that sometimes it might be a good idea to take a step back and ask why something should preserved. And then I don't mean preservation for historical purposes - believe me, history will never forget Pacman no matter how much it'll want to - but in the sense of actively trying to prevent these games from being removed from the everyday life of the everyday nerd.
I love these games, but things change, and I realize that the generation they are geared at now may not love them. I don't want to force my values on that generation. You probably didn't want your fathers' Elvis records, which is perfectly OK. But in the same way, you'll have to accept that your future son may not want to play Dig Dug. Even if it'd hurt.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
While not quite legal...
Yep, this is the problem. The more popular the past becomes, the more the video game makers percieve that they are losing money by not defending thier intellectual property. As usual it's a lose-lose situation.
Great games, like Meier's Civilization, should ultimately be preserved as a cultural object. Great novelists get to make thier millions by selling in volume the first few years, but after society has deamed a particular book "worth reading" it becomes public property. I.e. you can find these best-sellers in the library.
The internet should be our library, abandonware sites should be allowed to exist under the law. The problem, as usual, is that we "geeks" are almost ignored by politicians and lawmakers. It'd be interesting to see a future article describing why that's the case...but who really knows the answer?
Anyway please stand up, and say what needs to be said...or your abandonware could become "illegal contraband" instead of treasured public property.
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
From an objective point of view it does look like the rights owners are overprotective. But look at it from their point of view. Not only is can the original games be repackaged, but they can also yield sequels. The license for Spy Hunter isn't so another company can put out the same exact game, but a derivative game. There's another Ultima game coming, based on those before. Mario has come a long way from Donkey Kong. Pac Man is still chomping away.
If the rights owners don't assert themselves over the original, they risk losing the rights to control the derivatives. What degree the risk is over old ROMs may seem debatable, but each company/rights owner must decide that for themselves.
And I don't really see the 'vanishing forever' argument. There are plenty of restoration organizations, that watch and pay for older non working games to fix up. Also, have you seen the Ms. Pac Man/Galaga cabinet? Or the 20-in-1 cabinets? I've seen them in Dave & Busters. Technically, not the same controls, but the games are being put out there still. (Obviously, only those that would be deemed to do well. I doubt Stocker will be re-released.)
Irony: An add for the 10-in-1 Atari Joystick on the same page for this story.
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
http://www.shockwave.com/sw/content/joust
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
C:\>tracert life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness
Tracing route to life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness [123.45.67.89]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 28 ms 29 ms 29 ms 89.1.23.11
2 29 ms 30 ms 30 ms 89.1.227.153
3 44 ms 29 ms 29 ms patriot.congress.gov [140.147.249.9]
*** Destination host unreachable: life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness
C:\>
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
As a geek, if you don't already have your favorite roms and emulators burned to cd, you simply don't deserve to play the classics.
It's like second on the list right after the pr0n get's archived. Geez, what are you guys doing all this time?
Blowing on your Nintendo cartridge really doesn't do anything, unless you have a pretty thick layer of dust on it.
:). Long term, dumping game ROMs *is* the only reliable way to save them, unless companies give out the original source, which has often been long lost. Presumedly you could use an FPGA or something to reproduce the exact original circuitry of the game system. Until TV standards change, that is :)
What actually happens is this: the original NES had a 'lock-out' function, wherein only licensed NES games would work on the console. The problem is, if the game wasn't seated PERFECTLY in the slot (a real bitch to get right with the front loading systems), there wasn't a good enough connection for the lock-out chip to be read, and thus, the infamous flashing NES display. Cartridge contacts oxidize/corrode mad fast, and after a couple of years most NES cartridges were a real pain to use. Blowing on the cartridge does sweet diddly for the most part, but what it does do is force you to remove and re-insert the cartridge many times into your deck. Eventually, you'll get it right and the game works.. at least in theory.
The solution? Dip a Q-tip in rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) (probably other solvents work too), and scrub the living hell out of the cartridge contacts. The end of the Q-tip will be almost black, that's how much crap is preventing you from playing your game.
I've ran through a dozen decks and over 400 games in the past 2 years, and I have yet to encounter a combination that doesn't work perfectly (and I do mean, on the first try) if the cartridge is cleaned enough.
Also contrary to popular myth, every other cartridge-based system is also suceptible to this. I've seen it with SNES, Genesis, Colecovision, Atari VCS, and even N64 games. It's just not usually so bad because the cartridge fits better - but once the contacts are all gunked up, you have the same problem. Yes, the same solution works.
Having said this, ROMs do unfortunately suffer from bitrot (the eventual loss of bit data from the ROM chip itself). Some estimate we're about to start seeing it on a large scale with the VCS, as it's approaching 30 years for some of its games. Eventually, the original ROMs simply won't be readable. Could be in the next couple of decades, could be a couple of centuries (it's kind of hard to test that length of time reliably
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Well if they were smart, the arcade game makers would bundle MAME with some of their older ROMS on a CD-ROM and sell it for $30 - $40 USD as Arcade Classics or something. They would have to modify MAME to encrypt and decrypt the ROMs so someone wouldn't just copy them and upload them via a File Sharer to some friends.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
I grew up during the 70s and 80s, and played most of the classics when I was a kid. Needless to say, I'm rather fond of them compared to most new games.
As an experiment, I gave a decent MAME set to a bunch of the kids I'm currently in school with. Most of them are about 20 years old, and in fact most had never been into an arcade (they simply no longer exist here). The odd pinball game, or Ms PacMan is about as much as they've seen. To them, it's all about 3D.
It took a bit to get over the low-res graphics, but it's amazing: they're ALL playing these games now. In fact, several have actually uninstalled newer games from their laptops (like Battlefield 1942 and Warcraft III) to free up space for more MAME roms. These kids have no 'happy memories' of the old games, yet love them as much (and in some cases more) than the new stuff.
I find this same argument comes up every time Star Wars is mentioned: the whole 'the first movies actually sucked, the only reason you think they're any good is that you were a kid then'. Bullshit. Most adults at the time (my 50's-era parents included) enjoyed Star Wars back then. Lucas didn't make his millions off of just 8 year old boys.
Again, I use some of my schoolmates as examples, because many of them are simply too young to have ever seen the original Star Wars movies. Guess what? They think the new movies are pretty bad, for the most part. People my age seem to actually like them BETTER than people who've never seen the first trilogy.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
The classics will stay alive, as long as there are people out there who care about them.
This is evidenced in the dozens of emulators out there. Here's a small sample:
Stella (Atari)
FCE Ultra (Nintendo)
Freeze SMS (Sega Master System)
Gens(Genesis)
and, of course:
MAME (Every arcade game we know and love)
On the PC side, we have some very interesting projects:
AGI/SCI Remember all those old Sierra games? Well a few people were able to reverse engineer the interpreter language. The result is that you can now make your own Sierra games, and even take apart existing ones, look at the code, screens, etc, and even modify them if you want. Truly and old schooler's paradise.
SCUMM VM So times have changed, and you can't play your LucasArts games on whatever OS you happen to be running now? ScummVM will fix that. Compatibility is not 100% but give them time.
The people behind these projects are very dedicated to saving the classics. With these kinds of people around, we should have no worries about the games we loved so much fading into obscurity.
-R
This will probably be modded down as a troll, but I think this needs to be said.
No one cares whether you think old games are better!
"Pure gameplay"? The vast majority of old games have 1 or 2 buttons and endless repetition. I enjoy these types of games (I own 5 arcade boards of various old games and my own cab to play them), but everyone who waxes nostalgic for the "good old days" of videogames needs to take a hard look at what they're saying. The power of modern consoles opens up genres that never could have existed before. Look at RPGs on the PSX and SNES vs the offerings on NES and its ilk. You can call FF1, DQ1, and DW1 classics all you like, but the NES was too constrained for decently varied location graphics, orchestrated soundtracks, or even a decently realized storyline.
Similarly, Joust, Defender, Pacman, and others have their place, but to claim that they are gaming in its "purest" form is denying the possibility that the advancement of technology has improved gaming at all. Blends of multiple genres were not possible in the past. FPS, RTS, and more simply didn't exist! If gaming was purest in the 70s and very early 80s, why does anybody play Starfox, Xenogears, Metroid, Zelda, Final Fantasies past 3, Metal Gear Solid, Counter-strike, Baldur's Gate, etc?
Remember, technology is a tool to allow the developer to more fully realize the world he/she desires to create. Older is not necessarily better.
The problem, as usual, is that we "geeks" are almost ignored by politicians and lawmakers.
Sort of. The _bigger_ problem is that there exist consortiums of corporations which hate abandonware. Despite the size, organization, and good intentions of the abandonware community (check out this webring, for instance), there are stubborn corporations that will see practically no profit but want to retain their copyrights on silly-but-fun games forever. Slashdot has covered the IDSA's legal maneuverings in the past; Mobygames has an excellent feature that discusses some of the issues around the legal status of abandonware.
Nobody is going to pay absurdly inflated (probably price-fixed) shelf prices of $40 or so for old games. If the companies won't sell their copyrighted software, these games -- good games, like Civilization or Colonization or Wolfenstein 3D -- will gravitate towards an open trade on the Internet. They're often smaller than MP3's, and they're considerably more fulfilling. This kind of "copyright infringement" is usually ignored and not typically prosecuted; the situation's more or less fine as it is. But it's damned annoying trying to find a safe venue for sharing what is, in a way, cultural heritage. oh, and:
The problem, as usual, is that we "geeks" are almost ignored by politicians and lawmakers. It'd be interesting to see a future article describing why that's the case...but who really knows the answer?
IDSA=money
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
I asked him if he knew what Pac-Man was and his eyes lit up. "You have Pac-Man? Can I play it?" He had played all the old-school games I mentioned, Joust, Spy Hunter, etc.
The staying power of the 80's arcade games is incredible. Being constrained by such small amounts of memory and processor power forced the programmers to innovate and squeeze every bit of playability out of the limited resources they had.
Modern game designers should take note. You can learn a lot about PLAYABILITY from the 80's arcade games.
Last year I was trying to reason with one of the higher level Managers at Nintendo USA regarding emulation and emulators. I was trying to persuade him to sanction the sale and development of an emulator that would allow the old Nintendo and N64 games to be played on a different platform.
He told me video games revenues are going to surpass Box-Office sales in the future and ONLINE gaming will probably become its own religion. This video game entertainment industry is worth billions and no one wants to see the old games around anymore since you might stop buying new games for a few weeks and revisit some of the classics. Can you imagine that? Someone might actually want to play an sweet classic game instead of a newer lame game? Think of all the new games you've tried/rented and how bad most of them suck. Most of the new games end up costing $20 or less within a month after release because they are so lame.
Here is Nintendo's Position on emulators they say it's ILLEGAL even if you OWN THE ROMS. Nintendo is really a sentimental bunch when it comes to retaining pieces of our childhood. I'd like to see someone test this in court, but they would probably lose.
Here is an excerpt from their LEGAL FAQ
Can I Download a Nintendo ROM from the Internet if I Already Own the Authentic Game?
There is a good deal of misinformation on the Internet regarding the backup/archival copy exception. It is not a "second copy" rule and is often mistakenly cited for the proposition that if you have one lawful copy of a copyrighted work, you are entitled to have a second copy of the copyrighted work even if that second copy is an infringing copy. The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic. Therefore, whether you have an authentic game or not, or whether you have possession of a Nintendo ROM for a limited amount of time, i.e. 24 hours, it is illegal to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet.
How Does Nintendo Feel About the Emergence of Video Game Emulators?
The introduction of emulators created to play illegally copied Nintendo software represents the greatest threat to date to the intellectual property rights of video game developers. As is the case with any business or industry, when its products become available for free, the revenue stream supporting that industry is threatened. Such emulators have the potential to significantly damage a worldwide entertainment software industry which generates over $15 billion annually, and tens of thousands of jobs.
What Does Nintendo Think of the Argument that Emulators are Actually Good for Nintendo Because it Promotes the Nintendo Brand to PC Users and Leads to More Sales?
Distribution of an emulator developed to play illegally copied Nintendo software hurts Nintendo's goodwill, the millions of dollars invested in research & development and marketing by Nintendo and its licensees. Substantial damages are caused to Nintendo and its licensees. It is irrelevant whether or not someone profits from the distribution of an emulator. The emulator promotes the play of illegal ROMs , NOT authentic games. Thus, not only does it not lead to more sales, it has the opposite effect and purpose.
How Come Nintendo Does Not Take Steps Towards Legitimizing Nintendo Emulators?
Emulators developed to play illegally copied Nintendo software promote piracy. That's like asking why doesn't Nintendo legitimize piracy. It doesn't make any business sense. It's that simple and not open to debate.
People Making Nintendo Emulators and Nintendo ROMs are Helping Publishers by Making Old Games Available that are No Longer Being Sold by the Copyright Owner. This Does Not Hurt Anyone and Allows Gamers to Play Old Favorites. What's the Problem?
The problem is that it's illegal. Copyrights
Hey, if you want to revisit the classics, get to Vegas quick for CGE '03!
http://www.cgexpo.com/
How to build a MAME cabinet in 24 hrs
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
What is this lim mit of which you speak? I am aware of no such attribute on copyrights. Well, I remember learning of them when reading your history files, but if I remember correctly, they were abolished in the early 21st century, before you even had warp, hyoo-mon!
AHHH!!! Flashbacks!!! AHHHH!!!! Make it stop!!! AHHH!!!!!!11