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Will Classic Games Disappear Forever?
Knightfall writes "Who doesn't remember pumping tons of quarters into games like Joust and Tron? I shudder at the thought of what could have become of that large quantity of money. Well, it seems remembering those games may soon be all that is left. As companies are dropping support, but not property rights to our old favorites, many are in danger of vanishing forever. There are a few trying to prevent this though. An article in Wired tells a little about it. I for one still find these games, on a pure gameplay level, better than most anything out there currently. What can we do to prevent them from no longer being available?"
MAME
>What can we do to prevent them from no longer being
>available?
Preserve them and actively play/"advertise them".
That's what I do.
And that what's a LOT of people are doing - www.vaps.org
PS. Emulator is *NOT* a substitute for a classic arcade game.
Mame has support for probably every classic arcade game in existence. While not quite legal it does allow us to do a bit more than "remember" these games.
http://www.mame.net
There's always a large collection of ROMs on the Internet. I'd say that almost any old game exists on numerous hard drives across the world, whether those people own the actual machine and have a legal right to have those ROMs or not. I guess piracy will preserve these classics.
Of course ROMs for newer games after they went 3D are mostly uncommon since MAME doesn't really support all that yet. There's a gap there I guess that's in danger... somewhere after 2D and before what's currently in arcades right now.
People also tend to hold on to their old console systems. I myself have a CoCo3, Atari 7800 (with 2600 and 7800 carts), Sega Master System (with 3d glasses), Sega CD/Genesis/32X, Super Nintendo, Nintendo, and more. And guess what? They're not going anywhere. Classic games will always live on through garage sales and eBay auctions and emulators. They won't die because people out there still do care about them and enjoy them.
Who doesn't remember pumping tons of quarters into games like Joust and Tron?
Me.
Shortly after my video game phase, I got heavily into pot.
If we forget the classics, how will our great great grandchildren know where "All you base are belong to us" came from?
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
Buy one?
Seriously, buy a used machine, learn to keep it repaired and running (or find someone who can), and enjoy!
I enjoy classic pinball machines and that's what I did. I play them almost every day, worth every penny.
Beta sux! Join the Slashcott! http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4760465&cid=46173047
When a product is no longer available for purchase, there is nothing wrong with violating the copyright. Technically, I'm sure there is. Morally, there is nothing wrong at all.
I can sleep at night 'stealing' ROMs for product that is no longer available.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
do you find these games better than anything from a gameplay perspective because that's the case or because you have the whole 'happy memories while growing up' angle?
For every revolutionary game (think Robotron, tempest, bosconian, pacman) there were many others that we remember fondly only because we have other memories associated with them (like summers growing up, friends etc. etc.)
-- the cake is a lie
If a company decides to drop supportor get rid of a game or console for any reason, in doing so I feel that they should also lose all rights to it, such as distrobution, copyright, development, and marketing as holding on to the rights but not the game is wrong and unrightfully witholds it from the public, as it is no longer around and yet noone else can enjoy it either.
Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither
Start collecting classic games and learn how to repair them.
If nothing else collect the ROM's. I know they're copyrighted, but if they're going to let them die then F'em. What the companies need to do is simply come out and sell the roms they currently own or license someone to handle it for them, stick them on a CD and sell it for $10-20 with a copy of MAME included. I'd pay $20 for a licensed library of SNES or Atari console roms.
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
The CAPS project is starting with the Amiga, preserving everything it can. Not just the games, but archiving scans of the boxes and manuals as well. They are also storing the disks in a format which retains the copy protection of the original.
Many of the biggest games companies today started on the Amiga, so this history needs to be preserved. The CAPS project will be moving onto other formats later.
I used to work for one of those companies and I know that these days its heritage has largely been forgotten. It's obvious that the companies who created the games in the first place don't really care very much about anything other than the latest sale. Any attempt to preserve these games should be lauded.
Just look at the situation with the BBC who lost some early Dr.Who episodes and loads of Beatles footage because they didn't see the value in it at the time.
But if I were to ditch this system, it would be like shutting down the gates to a dozen little worlds: The Infocom* adventures, and the early Ultima games (including Warren Spector's early masterpiece Martian Dreams), and oddities like Hidden Agenda.
On the other hand . . . while it's nice to think about playing these old games again, I never seem to get around to it. If a flood destroyed my old PC and the associated disks, I really wouldn't feel that bad. It would almost be a relief.
If there were a computer game museum, I donate all this stuff in an instant. But I suspect that I wouldn't be alone. They'd probably be overwhelmed with donations.
Oye,gevault . . .
Stefan Jones
* I recently purchased at a flea market an unopened Infocom collection on CD-ROM. But dang it, the installer wouldn't work under Win98!
The companies that are dropping support for these games are doing so for a simple reason: They are no longer profitable and are therefore supporting them produces nothing but expense. The property rights remain but the game becomes a victim of bitrot and disappears forever.
The solution is to make these games profitable for the companies that own them. One way of doing this is to handle game rights the same way the Blender rights were handled: Get a bunch of people to donate a little bit of money and then make the company an offer to buy the rights, source code, schematics, and whatever other property makes up the games. To the companies, the choice is simple: Either throw away this game that nobody (they think) cares about, or let a bunch of geeks buy it off them for some money.
I think an organization of some sorts could be put together to accept donations and buy the rights to all kinds of old products, not just games. Anything "classic" or still useful. People donating money could specify all kinds of products they would like to preserve. Kind of like those, "We buy old houses!" or, "We buy old cars!" companies.
I hate to sound bitter, but I've heard quite a bit about folks who claim to "love" classics and want to keep them alive, and then take minimal to no steps to actually accomplish this. They have fond memories, but their actual love for the games has died away and in truth they're indifferent to the demise of what I daresay is history that is no less valuable than, say, a government document from the 1800s.
In my entertainment center, under my TV, VCR, DVD player, and newer consoles, is an Apple II Plus with one 5.25" drive and a joystick -- all that's needed to play games like Boulder Dash, Galaxian, Joust, Mario Bros., Flip Out, Night Mission Pinball, Miner 2049er, Congo Bongo, etc. I have literally hundreds of games on 5.25" disks and I actually play them at least two or three times a week. I've made redundant copies (some games on as many as three different floppies) just in case a disk goes bad. I love these games, I play them, and I take several steps to ensure they survive, at least until I die.
How many others can say they've done the same?
The coolest voice ever.
Oops, what the hell was I thinking?!!!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
So now i have been dicussing the release of this remake for more than a year with both original copyright holders (ian bell and david braben). In fear of not getting the maximum output from this, they both have expressed their demands on how they want the release to be done. Unfortunately, their different demands just cannot be fullfilled at the same time. The result: They can't agree on a licence and there probably won't be a legal elite remake.
What i've learned from this: Some classic games may be lost forever and a living fan base isn't everthing that's needed to keep a game alive. Emulation can't prevent the number of legal copies of a game to decrease and some of the games may in fact just disappear.
additionally, abandonware only encompasses old software that has been released into the public domain... old software that hasn't is known as "old warez"...
also, a lot of companies don't release the rights to games because, even though they don't have any plans for the games yet, they may have an idea for something they could do with them, later. however, if they don't defend their copyright in the present, they'll have a *lot* harder time defending it in the future...
personally, i think that copyrights over software should only last five years, and can perhapes be renewable for anohter five years after that. anything longer then that, and the company would have a very hard time trying to demonstrate that piracy of that piece of software has been harming them. well, except in the case of microsoft and windows 3.1, since we all know windows 3.1 to be completly surperior, in every way, to windows 9x and beyond, and since no one would buy an inferior OS when they could instead by a surperior one, hehe :)
anyways, we should take the time to thank all the companies that have made their software public domain... rockstar studios for grandtheft auto, and recently, Revolution Software for releasing Beneath a Steel Sky and helping Scumm VM emulate it :)
and speaking of Scumm VM, Scumm VM 0.5.1 has been released (the last slashdot article mentioned 0.5.0): http://scummvm.sourceforge.net/
So did I. Loved it, even. Yet, as is often stated on Slashdot in discussions of other matters (mostly those concerning the RIAA or MPAA), noone has the right to make a profit. If people don't want these games, what can we do? Force them to want them? Remembering the Good Old Days is all too frequently a sign of a common and very dangerous disease called Nostalgia, and a known symptom of that condition is a refusal to acknowledge that what one likes about a certain thing may be more due to associations rather than its intrinsic nature. I'm sure people will root for Doom and Warcraft in much the same way in 20 years, while not bothering much for the titles we (as in me and other old-time farts) care for so deeply, or, for that matter, for the new ultra-hyper-flashy game that we can't even conceive of today.
With this I'm not saying that fighting to keep some culture alive is always vain and pointless, only that sometimes it might be a good idea to take a step back and ask why something should preserved. And then I don't mean preservation for historical purposes - believe me, history will never forget Pacman no matter how much it'll want to - but in the sense of actively trying to prevent these games from being removed from the everyday life of the everyday nerd.
I love these games, but things change, and I realize that the generation they are geared at now may not love them. I don't want to force my values on that generation. You probably didn't want your fathers' Elvis records, which is perfectly OK. But in the same way, you'll have to accept that your future son may not want to play Dig Dug. Even if it'd hurt.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
It sounds like you've never played Robotron or "Bounce" or similar games.
> The tech at the time could only support very narrow concepts, like "eat the magic pills."
Which is exactly why game designers focused more on gameplay.
Designers focused more on gameplay back then because there was less they could do in other arenas to make the game 'good'. Also, there were fewer 'magic formulas' for making a game.. i.e. many games were truely original concepts, as opposed to today, where most are merely variants.
The point of a game is not necessarily to identify with the avatar. This what you imply when you say "it is pretty hard to thing of yourself as a yellow circle...," etc. The point of a game is to have fun... Suspension of disbelief is beside the point-- When I played board games as a kid I didn't imagine that I was the token on the board!
The real questions are:
Do graphics improve gameplay?
Do graphics by themselves make for a good game?
Sure, of course.
But pretty graphics by themselves do not a good game make... They may make a pretty photo album, but without a means of interaction... Who cares?
From an objective point of view it does look like the rights owners are overprotective. But look at it from their point of view. Not only is can the original games be repackaged, but they can also yield sequels. The license for Spy Hunter isn't so another company can put out the same exact game, but a derivative game. There's another Ultima game coming, based on those before. Mario has come a long way from Donkey Kong. Pac Man is still chomping away.
If the rights owners don't assert themselves over the original, they risk losing the rights to control the derivatives. What degree the risk is over old ROMs may seem debatable, but each company/rights owner must decide that for themselves.
And I don't really see the 'vanishing forever' argument. There are plenty of restoration organizations, that watch and pay for older non working games to fix up. Also, have you seen the Ms. Pac Man/Galaga cabinet? Or the 20-in-1 cabinets? I've seen them in Dave & Busters. Technically, not the same controls, but the games are being put out there still. (Obviously, only those that would be deemed to do well. I doubt Stocker will be re-released.)
Irony: An add for the 10-in-1 Atari Joystick on the same page for this story.
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
In college in the mid-80's, the 'grill' in the dorm that was open in the evenings had a few machines. Joust was one of them. My roommate, who was a bit Obsessive-Compulsive got hooked on joust. He'd go in there as soon as they opened and play until they shut down. Relatively soon, he could play an entire night on a single quarter. After a few weeks, the machine disappeared and something really lame showed up in its place.
Never confirmed, but my floor was convinced that Cliff was responsible for them pulling the machine.
http://www.shockwave.com/sw/content/joust
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You can use any of the Z-Machines available for Unix and Windows to play the Infocom gmaes. Infocom used a sort of interpreter, so you can play them on any computer that has a Z-Machine available for it.
Slashdot is a waste of time. I enjoy wasting time.
[The game companies] label [efforts to make older games available through downloads and emulators] piracy that could undercut future efforts to reissue such games in the form of classic compilations or to update them as remakes.
;)
Ok, so the plan is to bring out a collection of old games for the Atari XL or the ZX 81 or the C64 in the future? And there will be enough potential customers so that releasing the game into the public domain (or publishing the code) is a bad move financially??
I don't think so. And even if it was true, how many collections of old (8-Bit) games do you know? And how many follow-ups to a classic game have hit the market and made money?
I guess the real problem is that the old companies do not exist anymore, or have been bought out by other companies. And now nobody in the gaming industry knows or cares who has which rights to those games.
And with regard to 'remakes': the Duke Nukem 3D source code has been published under the GPL. Ports have been created. Will this hurt the sales of DNF? Go figure
My cats ate my karma. They also wrote this comment.
I've been keeping my old machines instead of selling them for YEARS. You don't get squat for them anyway. My old Mac Plus is the only machine I have that will run Rogue (Epyx, 1985), one of TEH BSET GAEMS EVAR. I have a room full of old machines, and I keep them running.
I also have my original Atari 2600 (and a backup), NES (on which I recently replaced the 72-pin connector to get rid of the "flashies"), SNES, Oddesy 2 (really), Atari 400 (my first actual computer, with my disk drives and floppies that still boot after over 20 years), and so forth. Cartridges for the games you loved and played are easy to find and cheap.
I also have a Robotron machine in my living room and a Defender on the way.
The point is: no, you can't count on new hardware to run legacy games and software. Support may be gone forever and eventually the disks will stop working, but the best way to ensure that your old games are still playable is to not garage-sale them in the first place. Take care of your old machines and they will take care of you. <dieter>TOUCH THEM, LOVE THEM!</dieter>
-- http://frobnosticate.com
C:\>tracert life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness
Tracing route to life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness [123.45.67.89]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 28 ms 29 ms 29 ms 89.1.23.11
2 29 ms 30 ms 30 ms 89.1.227.153
3 44 ms 29 ms 29 ms patriot.congress.gov [140.147.249.9]
*** Destination host unreachable: life.liberty.pursuit-of-happiness
C:\>
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I think part of it is either a game was fun to play, or it wasn't. There were very few that looked good but weren't fun.
And Pac Man, and to a greater degree Ms. Pac Man, opened up video games into the main stream. Whatever you may think of their game play now, they were relatively simple and accessible. And the point wasn't that every second something new and entertaining happened. It was a challenge. How far could you last, how high could you score, in a single setting. That was it. Very few modern games have that feel - by which I mean progress is always saveable as you move through the game. Eventually, with a guide and enough time anyone can get through them entirely, and removing the guide just means with more time.
I'm not trying to come down too harsh on modern games - I play and enjoy many of them. But sometimes I miss the simple challange of having to start over each game and trying to do better.
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
As a geek, if you don't already have your favorite roms and emulators burned to cd, you simply don't deserve to play the classics.
It's like second on the list right after the pr0n get's archived. Geez, what are you guys doing all this time?
The problem is that the companies have perrpetual copyright on these games, and while it is not profitable to do anything with those games, it is also unprofitable to give away corporate assets (i.e. release the games into the public domain). To do so would breach duties owed to the corporations' shareholders and bring about derivative suits. For example, releasing "Joust" into the public domain would cause the stock of whichever company who owns the rights to "Joust" to drop by 1/1000000th of a point. Likewise releasing "Joust" for the PS2 wouldn't be profitable b/c it doesn't have gangbangers, rap music, car theft, or even the slightest bit of full motion video. Thus, the end result is the game gets shelved and rots away.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
See, I disagree with the argument a lot of people give that older games are superior to newer ones because 'the gameplay was better.'
There's certainly two sides to that. There is a lot of gameplay that has died because nowadays it's too trivial for anyone to pay $50... or even $10... for it, yet it's still fun. The periodic "classics" collections partially alleviate this by bundling a lot of them together.
A lot of this gameplay is surprisingly sensitive to various subtle parameters and the vast majority of freeware Flash-based re-incarnations of the classics suck pretty badly, because while they wear the outward shape of the classic they are trying to emulate they are missing the soul. If you have any question about whether these games have some really cool gameplay, compare them to their (pathetic) imitators. They are unique.
On the other hand, I was playing Grand Theft Auto III for the first time this weekend, and it was occurring to me that that is the first game I've seen in the console world that IMHO even the Dreamcast couldn't have adequately handled. (Yes, it has a Grand Theft Auto II but I've heard it's not the same at all.) Granted, the vast majority of the gameplay is perfectly doable on a Commodore 64 class machine, and much of it was indeed done, but for the driving physics, which are a huge portion of the game, contributing to its fun. Nothing much until the Playstation 2-class machines (including PCs) could have done that.
(OT note: The violence of GTA3 is highly overrated; the universe is violent because everybody is immortal, and it's all cartoon violence. "Kill" anyone and wait around and you'll see doctors swooping in and restoring them to full health; it's not much of an extrapolation to say that when it doesn't happen it's an engine failure or a failure of the game to capture the world, not a fundamental aspect of the game. Only main chars die, excluding your character. If we were all effectively immortal too, our world would look a lot more like GTA3, with much more "casual" muggings and murders and sloppy driving and such.)
There are quite a few very successful classic game shows out there - like the Austin Game Expo that happened in late July. Link to Review.
As long as there are people like me, and the thousands of people that attend these shows, classic gaming will never die.
Video Game News, FAQs, etc
Blowing on your Nintendo cartridge really doesn't do anything, unless you have a pretty thick layer of dust on it.
:). Long term, dumping game ROMs *is* the only reliable way to save them, unless companies give out the original source, which has often been long lost. Presumedly you could use an FPGA or something to reproduce the exact original circuitry of the game system. Until TV standards change, that is :)
What actually happens is this: the original NES had a 'lock-out' function, wherein only licensed NES games would work on the console. The problem is, if the game wasn't seated PERFECTLY in the slot (a real bitch to get right with the front loading systems), there wasn't a good enough connection for the lock-out chip to be read, and thus, the infamous flashing NES display. Cartridge contacts oxidize/corrode mad fast, and after a couple of years most NES cartridges were a real pain to use. Blowing on the cartridge does sweet diddly for the most part, but what it does do is force you to remove and re-insert the cartridge many times into your deck. Eventually, you'll get it right and the game works.. at least in theory.
The solution? Dip a Q-tip in rubbing alcohol (isopropyl) (probably other solvents work too), and scrub the living hell out of the cartridge contacts. The end of the Q-tip will be almost black, that's how much crap is preventing you from playing your game.
I've ran through a dozen decks and over 400 games in the past 2 years, and I have yet to encounter a combination that doesn't work perfectly (and I do mean, on the first try) if the cartridge is cleaned enough.
Also contrary to popular myth, every other cartridge-based system is also suceptible to this. I've seen it with SNES, Genesis, Colecovision, Atari VCS, and even N64 games. It's just not usually so bad because the cartridge fits better - but once the contacts are all gunked up, you have the same problem. Yes, the same solution works.
Having said this, ROMs do unfortunately suffer from bitrot (the eventual loss of bit data from the ROM chip itself). Some estimate we're about to start seeing it on a large scale with the VCS, as it's approaching 30 years for some of its games. Eventually, the original ROMs simply won't be readable. Could be in the next couple of decades, could be a couple of centuries (it's kind of hard to test that length of time reliably
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Well if they were smart, the arcade game makers would bundle MAME with some of their older ROMS on a CD-ROM and sell it for $30 - $40 USD as Arcade Classics or something. They would have to modify MAME to encrypt and decrypt the ROMs so someone wouldn't just copy them and upload them via a File Sharer to some friends.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
... still exists, albeit in new forms. Go to their website and find the "Play Classic Games" links (sorry about not posting a direct link, but I'm tired and they're doing lots of JS popups) and the info on their "Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits" pack for the GameBoy Advance. Sure, it's not the same as playing on a real arcade machine, but the games are at least still around.
It's 19:11:42. Do You Know Where Your Meat Body Is?
I grew up during the 70s and 80s, and played most of the classics when I was a kid. Needless to say, I'm rather fond of them compared to most new games.
As an experiment, I gave a decent MAME set to a bunch of the kids I'm currently in school with. Most of them are about 20 years old, and in fact most had never been into an arcade (they simply no longer exist here). The odd pinball game, or Ms PacMan is about as much as they've seen. To them, it's all about 3D.
It took a bit to get over the low-res graphics, but it's amazing: they're ALL playing these games now. In fact, several have actually uninstalled newer games from their laptops (like Battlefield 1942 and Warcraft III) to free up space for more MAME roms. These kids have no 'happy memories' of the old games, yet love them as much (and in some cases more) than the new stuff.
I find this same argument comes up every time Star Wars is mentioned: the whole 'the first movies actually sucked, the only reason you think they're any good is that you were a kid then'. Bullshit. Most adults at the time (my 50's-era parents included) enjoyed Star Wars back then. Lucas didn't make his millions off of just 8 year old boys.
Again, I use some of my schoolmates as examples, because many of them are simply too young to have ever seen the original Star Wars movies. Guess what? They think the new movies are pretty bad, for the most part. People my age seem to actually like them BETTER than people who've never seen the first trilogy.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
The classics will stay alive, as long as there are people out there who care about them.
This is evidenced in the dozens of emulators out there. Here's a small sample:
Stella (Atari)
FCE Ultra (Nintendo)
Freeze SMS (Sega Master System)
Gens(Genesis)
and, of course:
MAME (Every arcade game we know and love)
On the PC side, we have some very interesting projects:
AGI/SCI Remember all those old Sierra games? Well a few people were able to reverse engineer the interpreter language. The result is that you can now make your own Sierra games, and even take apart existing ones, look at the code, screens, etc, and even modify them if you want. Truly and old schooler's paradise.
SCUMM VM So times have changed, and you can't play your LucasArts games on whatever OS you happen to be running now? ScummVM will fix that. Compatibility is not 100% but give them time.
The people behind these projects are very dedicated to saving the classics. With these kinds of people around, we should have no worries about the games we loved so much fading into obscurity.
-R
I think this demonstrates one of the biggest problems in copyright law, that the 95 year expiration date assures that nothing released within our lifetimes will ever become part of the public domain.
If most software is becoming abandonware within 25 years of its release, wouldn't that say that the complete economic value of a computer program gets soaked out within that timeframe? Isn't that the point of having copyrights expire, or have we forgotten that already?
With Open Source being so popular, people can write a program to act like a Classic program and even look like it, but be a totally differnet source code frm the original. Then port it to different platforms. So we get a Classic Rewrite.
Take for example Telengard for Windows a Windows re-write of the Classic C64 game. See how the game looked like and played on a C64, but on Windows instead.
We just need more people to re-write the classics to save them.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Part of Disney's business model is the carefully scheduled re-release of their "classic" films. Buy withholding the films for a period of time and re-releasing them, they get a whole new audience that isn't yet jaded by the films.
Similarly, many classic video games are being re-released as web games or cell phone games.
So are you for or against allowing such "great" games to continue to exist?
Won't someone think of the children?
Ben
Work Safe Porn
This will probably be modded down as a troll, but I think this needs to be said.
No one cares whether you think old games are better!
"Pure gameplay"? The vast majority of old games have 1 or 2 buttons and endless repetition. I enjoy these types of games (I own 5 arcade boards of various old games and my own cab to play them), but everyone who waxes nostalgic for the "good old days" of videogames needs to take a hard look at what they're saying. The power of modern consoles opens up genres that never could have existed before. Look at RPGs on the PSX and SNES vs the offerings on NES and its ilk. You can call FF1, DQ1, and DW1 classics all you like, but the NES was too constrained for decently varied location graphics, orchestrated soundtracks, or even a decently realized storyline.
Similarly, Joust, Defender, Pacman, and others have their place, but to claim that they are gaming in its "purest" form is denying the possibility that the advancement of technology has improved gaming at all. Blends of multiple genres were not possible in the past. FPS, RTS, and more simply didn't exist! If gaming was purest in the 70s and very early 80s, why does anybody play Starfox, Xenogears, Metroid, Zelda, Final Fantasies past 3, Metal Gear Solid, Counter-strike, Baldur's Gate, etc?
Remember, technology is a tool to allow the developer to more fully realize the world he/she desires to create. Older is not necessarily better.
The problem, as usual, is that we "geeks" are almost ignored by politicians and lawmakers.
Sort of. The _bigger_ problem is that there exist consortiums of corporations which hate abandonware. Despite the size, organization, and good intentions of the abandonware community (check out this webring, for instance), there are stubborn corporations that will see practically no profit but want to retain their copyrights on silly-but-fun games forever. Slashdot has covered the IDSA's legal maneuverings in the past; Mobygames has an excellent feature that discusses some of the issues around the legal status of abandonware.
Nobody is going to pay absurdly inflated (probably price-fixed) shelf prices of $40 or so for old games. If the companies won't sell their copyrighted software, these games -- good games, like Civilization or Colonization or Wolfenstein 3D -- will gravitate towards an open trade on the Internet. They're often smaller than MP3's, and they're considerably more fulfilling. This kind of "copyright infringement" is usually ignored and not typically prosecuted; the situation's more or less fine as it is. But it's damned annoying trying to find a safe venue for sharing what is, in a way, cultural heritage. oh, and:
The problem, as usual, is that we "geeks" are almost ignored by politicians and lawmakers. It'd be interesting to see a future article describing why that's the case...but who really knows the answer?
IDSA=money
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
If you were sane, you'd have archived all those floppies on a cd-rom. It's disquieting how many boxes fit on a single cd :)
BTW, there exist many free PC emalutors:
I have a snotload of modern PCs sitting around, a PS2, XBox and GC, with just about every worthwhile game either available to me here or upon request (I write for an IT web site).
I also have a Tempest, Robotron 2084, Gauntlet II, Xevious, Ms. Pacman, and Smash TV.
The new games, those that are worth opening the shrink-wrap on, a suprisingly small number, get boring really quickly, and that is by design. Read the content restrictions for Sony, MS and Nintendo for a real eye-opener, they mandate that games lose their appeal. Gameplay has become secondary to eye candy.
When we want to have fun in this house, there is nothing like an hour long Smash TV session, or seeing if you can get to the yellow boards on Tempest. 20+ years later, these games are still fun. How many PS1 games are worth the $5 you can pick them up for?
-Charlie
Stuff like this really ticks me off. Of *course* the gaming industry isn't gonna say, "Hey, don't forget to add in a few (some amount) bucks so we can preserve our history.
Gaming companies, or any company, really, has little interest in supporting games where there is 1) no more money to be had, and 2) it would seem a lack of investment.
That doesn't mean there isn't a solution though. The Internet at large is picking up the slack on its own. The geeks who want to support these games so they don't die out, will, and it won't cost the "industry" any more than letting go of their pride, and in some cases, just creating a link somewhere on their page that says "Download this deprecated, unsupported, game that is now freeware, available to all."
At least that way, the game is alive and kicking, and it would be even better if they released the source code.
This can't be a serious issue, either. When they release patches on a regular basis that are 40+ megs or so, how is a 46k file going to cost them *anything* comparable in bandwidth?
It doesn't take much to support one game, by one fanatic fiend out there on the web. Throw up a homepage, post your memories, screenshots, and the game. Gee, that'll really kill Geocities.
The gaming industry is just too lazy, but if they got their act together, it would be a great PR move for them. "Wow, Company A is so cool, becuase they released their old 80's computer game on the web!!!" Seems to me, that something like that would generate a bit of brand loyalty, and actually *stop* pirating in the process, because then people would respect their decisions, instead of circumventing the law solely to preserve history.
I asked him if he knew what Pac-Man was and his eyes lit up. "You have Pac-Man? Can I play it?" He had played all the old-school games I mentioned, Joust, Spy Hunter, etc.
The staying power of the 80's arcade games is incredible. Being constrained by such small amounts of memory and processor power forced the programmers to innovate and squeeze every bit of playability out of the limited resources they had.
Modern game designers should take note. You can learn a lot about PLAYABILITY from the 80's arcade games.
Nothing you read on Slashdot is legal advice.
There have been occasional suggestions that anything that goes out of production (or support, for computers) for a year becomes public domain.
Not exactly "public domain" per se, but still possibly fair use under 17 USC 107. It wouldn't be completely inconceivable to have a judge rule that if a copyright owner takes a work out of print, that counts as an admission of a lack of "potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." Though copying an out-of-print work without authorization loses on fair use factors 2 and 3, it can still win on 1 and the doubly-important 4.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I had a real Qix in my appartment when I was still a bachelor. My wife thinks it does not look good in her living room (bummer). She thinks a 50" plasma screen doesn't either anyway... If you have any tricks on how to convince a wife, please share.
Games are no different than any other medium. If someone wants to archive them, open a library or museum. That individual would buy an individual copy off ebay (accept donations, find them in the attic, etc) then archive it under the fair use rules provided for libraries and museums under copyright law. They could legally make backup copies for archival purposes to avoid bitrot. Think microfilm and magazines. They can allow people to come into the museum and play the games. They can even loan out the legally aquired instance of the game to other people in the same way a library checks out a book. If any individual on /. truly cares about this issue, that individual should do this. Sounds like a genuine not-for-profit business opportunity in this weak job market.
Outside of that, this thread is about justifying copyright infringement, and I'm not buying it.
Seriously, the copyright system was designed to promote the arts with the evental intent that the works would go into the public domain. If the work will be destroyed because it was abandoned under the copyright system, then I bet if you took a company to court to get their ROMs released into the public domain, the court would stand a reasonable chance of seeing things your way.
If course, I'd do this with some company that's still out there, teetering on the edge of death and hasn't sold its IP to Microsoft. Get the precident established first, and it'll be a lot harder for the big companies to employ the Chewbacca defense later on.
Oh, obIANAL, so YMMV.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Visit the site that champions the Public Domain Enhancement Act (HR2601) and write your Congresspeople (House, Senate) to support this bill. If these games are no longer commercially exploitable, the proponents of this bill believe it is unlikely the copyright holders will file the form and pay the low tax to retain copyright on the work. Maybe these games will eventually enter the PD where we can all legally share and modify them so we can play them on MAME.
Here's a FAQ, previous /. discussion, and another /. discussion.
Digital Citizen
You'd be shocked how poorly the videogame companies who own these rights have taken care of archiving and preserving their own intellectual property.
Even for commercial emulator rereleases there have been times where they've had to take advantage of things like MAME or the general collector community to piece back together their history.
This seems to be mostly a problem with American videogame companies. I haven't heard these same kinds of stories related to, let's say, Namco.
In many cases the owners have changed hands multiple times so something gets lost in each iteration. (Atari is the best example of this).
So it's more than possible that old artefacts can literally rot away, get thrown out, or forgotten entirely so that by the time these companies do decide to do something it might be too late.
The industry in general is so future-oriented that they just don't value the past enough to prioritize the preservation of their history.
It's the collectors who have to pick up the slack, and unfortunately, this involves stepping beyond the letter of the law.
Luckily we're at a point where most of the important arcade history and pre-crash console history is well preserved.
I don't think games for 8-bit home computers are as well preserved because there isn't as much interest from classic game enthusiasts and the libraries are much larger.
I also think there is a lot of work to do to improve emulation. For instance, what about all the early TTL-based arcade games that didn't have microprocessors? If you don't have a physical unit you'll never see the game run unless someone writes a simulator of some kind. What about sound emulation on things like the Cinematronics games? Sound in MAME is still a little rough in places.
It is not entirely cost prohibitive to purchase an arcade upright or cocktail table. i bought crazy climber, discs of tron (upright), and ms. pacman. Total cost about $1900.00 (incl. shipping + truck rental with a liftgate, storage, labor since my friends are skinny geeks, pizza, beer, rope/straps, and a handtruck.) if you have the space, i.e. living in your parents basement, garage, or for the lucky few, their old room. it is not such a bad idea. you could get rid of your bed and practice for the world record on your game of choice. you could also build your own arcade emulation upright, but that is illegal. i am still looking for nice and working upright or cocktail tables of journey, joust, gyruss, donkey kong, spyhunter, and tron.
a slut did tulsa
Last year I was trying to reason with one of the higher level Managers at Nintendo USA regarding emulation and emulators. I was trying to persuade him to sanction the sale and development of an emulator that would allow the old Nintendo and N64 games to be played on a different platform.
He told me video games revenues are going to surpass Box-Office sales in the future and ONLINE gaming will probably become its own religion. This video game entertainment industry is worth billions and no one wants to see the old games around anymore since you might stop buying new games for a few weeks and revisit some of the classics. Can you imagine that? Someone might actually want to play an sweet classic game instead of a newer lame game? Think of all the new games you've tried/rented and how bad most of them suck. Most of the new games end up costing $20 or less within a month after release because they are so lame.
Here is Nintendo's Position on emulators they say it's ILLEGAL even if you OWN THE ROMS. Nintendo is really a sentimental bunch when it comes to retaining pieces of our childhood. I'd like to see someone test this in court, but they would probably lose.
Here is an excerpt from their LEGAL FAQ
Can I Download a Nintendo ROM from the Internet if I Already Own the Authentic Game?
There is a good deal of misinformation on the Internet regarding the backup/archival copy exception. It is not a "second copy" rule and is often mistakenly cited for the proposition that if you have one lawful copy of a copyrighted work, you are entitled to have a second copy of the copyrighted work even if that second copy is an infringing copy. The backup/archival copy exception is a very narrow limitation relating to a copy being made by the rightful owner of an authentic game to ensure he or she has one in the event of damage or destruction of the authentic. Therefore, whether you have an authentic game or not, or whether you have possession of a Nintendo ROM for a limited amount of time, i.e. 24 hours, it is illegal to download and play a Nintendo ROM from the Internet.
How Does Nintendo Feel About the Emergence of Video Game Emulators?
The introduction of emulators created to play illegally copied Nintendo software represents the greatest threat to date to the intellectual property rights of video game developers. As is the case with any business or industry, when its products become available for free, the revenue stream supporting that industry is threatened. Such emulators have the potential to significantly damage a worldwide entertainment software industry which generates over $15 billion annually, and tens of thousands of jobs.
What Does Nintendo Think of the Argument that Emulators are Actually Good for Nintendo Because it Promotes the Nintendo Brand to PC Users and Leads to More Sales?
Distribution of an emulator developed to play illegally copied Nintendo software hurts Nintendo's goodwill, the millions of dollars invested in research & development and marketing by Nintendo and its licensees. Substantial damages are caused to Nintendo and its licensees. It is irrelevant whether or not someone profits from the distribution of an emulator. The emulator promotes the play of illegal ROMs , NOT authentic games. Thus, not only does it not lead to more sales, it has the opposite effect and purpose.
How Come Nintendo Does Not Take Steps Towards Legitimizing Nintendo Emulators?
Emulators developed to play illegally copied Nintendo software promote piracy. That's like asking why doesn't Nintendo legitimize piracy. It doesn't make any business sense. It's that simple and not open to debate.
People Making Nintendo Emulators and Nintendo ROMs are Helping Publishers by Making Old Games Available that are No Longer Being Sold by the Copyright Owner. This Does Not Hurt Anyone and Allows Gamers to Play Old Favorites. What's the Problem?
The problem is that it's illegal. Copyrights
My understanding from studying articles on several game copyright and trademark lawsuits is that you can copy the idea of a game as long as you call it something different and produce everything yourself. Copying bitmaps and such from the original is definitely not allowed.
In that sense we'll always have the classics, legally.
Although some game companies, such as Hasbro, have been known to bully clone makers, by taking them to court, losing, and appealing over and over until the defendant is bankrupt.
In one bullying campaign, shareware and freeware sites were spidered for names containing "tris" and threatening emails were sent to webmasters telling them to remove the software or be sued, despite having lost every court case against every author they sued.
I've forgotten what I was replying to. I hope this isn't off topic.
I am quite sure that preserving ones cultural heritage must go over IP and patents. I can't claim that I want to preserve my hertiage by pirating a copy of Doom 3 (when it is released), but I sure can with a game that nobody takes care of anymore. It would be different if there was a company who lived on these games.
Something equal to the library of congress (I hope I got that one right) should be created for digital games. And not just the game but the blueprints/source code as well.
Hey, if you want to revisit the classics, get to Vegas quick for CGE '03!
http://www.cgexpo.com/
How to build a MAME cabinet in 24 hrs
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
They'd bundle their old games with new games and continually force you to buy a new game to play the old one. That way they could always port it to the new hardware and force you to buy it again!
That sounds horrible, but lots of people would probably dance at the idea of getting a retro game with every new game they bought.
it doesn't have any "classic arcade games", but the underdogs is a nice "classic" computer games repository (the majority of the games being for PC). and they claim all the games that are available for download are legal (the copywrite holder's are no longer ISDA members or something like that -- IANAL)
What is this lim mit of which you speak? I am aware of no such attribute on copyrights. Well, I remember learning of them when reading your history files, but if I remember correctly, they were abolished in the early 21st century, before you even had warp, hyoo-mon!
AHHH!!! Flashbacks!!! AHHHH!!!! Make it stop!!! AHHH!!!!!!11
MONEY
How much do you want to play these games? Do you want it enough to offer cold hard cash in return for a non-exclusive license? Have you considered offering advertising links? Do you have anything else that the rights owners might like?
If the question is "How can we persuade rights owners to give us the rights for nothing", then you can't be that interested in playing them.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I have played computer-games since I got my Commodore 64, then Amiga 500 and for now the PC-generation. My favorite games on the Amiga was "North and South" and "A-train", which I enjoyed to play for a very long period. I actually just remembered how much I loved those games, when I installed UAE on my Gentoo yesterday and seing them in action again (I own the games, but was to lazy to convert them, so I downloaded them). A-train has still one of the best simulations for train and economy, eventhough it looks so simple (but it is quite hard to succeed). North And South may look like a Risk ripoff, but the graphics sure are fun. The same counts for Civilization, which I believe still have the best graphics (Inventions, starting a town, riots), eventhough Civ2 had better units-graphics (but the rest sucked, Elvis, please!).
Back on the topic: I believe that these projects can only exist if the companies give the license free and other people can develop on them further (I would like to see a A-train 2, but don't tell Maxis *ahem* EA/Maxis, they are more interested in "realism" than fun graphics).
Many game companies believe that the only solution to develop further on their games is to make them 3D. Look at Railroad Tycoon 3 in planning, Simcity 4, CC:Generals. These games maybe *look* good but the gameplay really gets deprecated when your computer has to simulate all the 3D-graphics, and you feel it isn't more to it.
Nuff said: Start developing!
(yes this can be compared with sex)