Iceman Otzi was a Fighter

Theatetus writes "Yahoo! News is running a story from USA Today that Otzi the iceman's murder is more complicated than we thought. It seems Otzi had blood on his clothes and knife from four different people in patterns that suggested he took out two with his bow and carried a wounded or dead person over his shoulder. I sense an action movie in the making..." If you don't remember Otzi, read the original story.

Comments

Obligatory Phil Hartman quote...

[Guano_Jim]

I tried to read the article, but I didn't understand it.

Because I'm just a cave man!

Ah, Phil, we barely knew ye...

Re:Obligatory Phil Hartman quote...

[Henry V .009]

Ladies and gentlmen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic makes me want to get out of my BMW and run off to the hills or whatever. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine I wonder, Did little demons get inside and type it? I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts. But there is one thing I do know. When a man like my client slips and falls on a sidewalk in front of a public library, then he is entitled to no less than two million in compensatory damages and two million in punitive damages. Thank you.

But he wasn't gay...

[jeffmorgen]

... The Straight Dope

Re:But he wasn't gay...

[tambo]

This part of the article is interesting...

"'but Otzi is the first known homosexual man that enjoyed being [made a receptacle of lust].... Otzi was the passive partner--of this there is absolutely no doubt.... The sperm was carbon dated.'"

Y'know, at first, I thought: Why would they bother? He's been dead for like 60,000 years; why bother carbon-dating it? Can't we be sure that it's just about as old as ol' Otzi here? Even necrophiliacs wouldn't stoop that low.

Then I thought: Wait a minute, I'm questioning the bottom-line standards of necrophiliacs.

Then I stopped thinking about the issue altogether because I didn't like where it was heading. Ick.

- David Stein

Re:But he wasn't gay...

[sTalking_Goat]

I'm questioning the bottom-line standards of necrophiliacs

Are you kidding? Could you imagine the bragging rights, from fucking 5,000 year old cave-man?

Oh man!

[downix]

I can see it now! It's got action! It's got Drama! It's got this hot, sexy half-naked female co-star! Throw in some young stud like Vin Deisel as Otzi, and we've got a surefire winner!

Alright, who's with me to bid on the movie rights?

Re:Oh man!

[EyeSavedLatin]

Vin Diesel would have to get his acting up to "caveman" though & stop dragging his knuckles on the ground. Now "apeman" - that has possibilities for our man Vin!

Re:Oh man!

[Mostly Harmless]

Why don't we just elect Otzi governor of California?

Re:Oh man!

[deltronzero]

I wouldn't be so sure of that, think, "The Iceman Cumeth"

Simple answer for why he was killed.

[Unknown Poltroon]

He's a distant ancestor of John Oconnor.

Re:Simple answer for why he was killed.

[aWalrus]

It's John ConnOr! If you're going to be a dick, at least get your facts straight.

Otzi was a fighter...

[teamhasnoi]

I'm guessing he was a lover too. Where else would all you Neanderthals come from? ;)

Since this murder case is still open, I suggest we get together and frame Darl McPrisonBride for it.

he was killed....

[Omega Prime]

because he was telling copyright fire side stories.

bronze age riaa

"And they were killed in the manner best befitting virgins" ---- "He's dead Jim"

he speaks to us from the grave..

[peculiarmethod]

with his leathered 5000 yr old skin, his bronze axe, knife, quiver, his grass cloak (usually worn by heardsmen until the last century) and series of wounds (did I mention self-ritualized death?).. Otzi reminds us that life in the alps is cold, dangerous, and just not worth it. (for it, see *MURDER*)

btw.. i think it's great that they used the pollen (which various form found are only released in Autumn) to figure out what things were like when he died. Harsh, autumn is in the alps.. he was fighting many men for days at a time in dead brutal conditions.. RAD.. go otzi

p

Re:he speaks to us from the grave..

[RobotWisdom]

My semi-exhaustive collection of Iceman resources

Wow it's like a real MMORPG!

[cryms0n]

Tanking is a bitch.

incorrect count

[pyros]

He had blood on his back from one person, and blood on his knife from two more. So the theory is he carried a wounded friend, and fought two assailants. His own DNA set is included in the count of 4. I saw the first discovery show they did on him, was pretty neat. Looking forward to the next one.

kernel panic

[jared_hanson]

ERROR: Geek reference assigned an unknown value. Subscriber status will be revoked.

The speculations just keep getting wilder...

[sTalking_Goat]

I saw the DC documentary. The researchers invovled in this project just keep making the story wilder. It wasn't good enough that someone shot him in the back and he collapsed and died. Now they're making him into a First Action Hero.

Next they'll tell us he was actually from the year 1865 sent back in time 5000 years to protect a hot, but dumpy looking cave-chick from the Steam powered Terminator sent from the same future to kill her before she fathered the distant ancestor of Rudolf Diesel...

The Rock will portray Otzi in the movie...

Re:The speculations just keep getting wilder...

[delong]

Well, the article seems to suggest that the scientists concluded that Otzi had attempted to remove the arrow from his back, but only succeeded in removing the shaft, leaving the point in his shoulder.

He was found clutching his knife, with indications from cuts on his hands that he was in a knife fight. With bruises to his torso that indicate he may have been beaten.

Seems to me the evidence does seem to point to the scenario: he was shot, pulled the shaft from his body, and was in a running fight that ended with a nasty close-up knife fight, which resulted in his demise.

Derek

Re:The speculations just keep getting wilder...

[sTalking_Goat]

Lets start from the beginning shall we.

The first conclusion was that he was walking the alps in Autmn. A sudden storm blew up and he died of Hypothermia.

The guys that proposed this theory and missed the huge (well not huge but not tiny) arrowhead stuck in his shoulder.

Then somebody grabbed samples of 5000 old turd from his anus and discovered spring pollen. So the next theory I believe was that he got into a fight, someone/s beat the shit out of him breaking his ribs and he fled into the mountains, collapsed and died of shock.

Then lo and behold somebody spotted the arrowhead. So then we get the shot in the back theaory and the rib deformation was determined to be post mortem, caused by the pressure of the ice he was frozen in.

Now because they've found bruises on his rib area , the entire Ice pressure hypothesis goes out the window and we're back to the beating, but with a twist. Blood samples on his shoulder spontaneously exagerates into a wounded wisecracking side kick. Other blood samples become ninja assassins and Otzi is now a Lowly Sheep-Hearder turned Vigilante Out for Justice(TM).

Have these guys ever heard of Ockham's Razor? I'm no foresic scientist, but this does not seem like the simplest explanation too me.

In fact this smacks of sensationlism aimed at Joe & Jane Sixpack, so these guys can grab more funding.

I work in research and if I cooked up a wild story everytime I think I've discovered the 21st Century's version of DNA, my boss would have my head.

Re:Action movie?

[peculiarmethod]

you can tell from how well the bruises on his hips were healed.. among other injuries, and also, he died slowly.. he ritualistically placed a few items in a pattern below his chest.. they remained there perfectly until he was moved for study

p

Hot cave man sex

[makoffee]

Whatever! Sounds to me like he had smacked his would-be wife over the head with a club, and was about to drag her back to his cave, when three ninjas jummped out from behind a rock and started freeking out. Sadly ninjas live the life of the sword, and came to a fitting end. Even if this sword was just a pointy knife.

Read the book "Iceman" if...

[joshamania]

...you are an archeologist and would like a good cry.

It's a bit boring and slow at times, but overall pretty interesting. The most memorable piece of the book describes hikers and local police/government types hacking at the ice and mud that Otzi was frozen in, irreparably damaging the corpse...breaking the bow (& arrows) in half by snapping it off in the ice when trying to pry it out of the frozen muck. The initial discover of Otzi was nothing less than a tragedy for science.

The book also discusses in detail all the political BS that went along with the discovery...whether he was found in Italy or Austria and who really "owned" Otzi. One big mess, really...

So,

[cygnus]

So iceman was an action hero, eh?

Maybe he should run for Governor of California.

* rimshot

Hmmm

[Faust7]

He's a distant ancestor of John Oconnor.

In the all-Irish universe where O'Dyson builds O'SKYNET and unwittingly unleashes the O'Terminators?

"I'll be back, ye swags!"

You gave away the ending already...

[Dareth]

simple story... he is a fighter...

Conclusion: He failed his last saving throw.

How many HP?

[grondak]

... and what level?

4?
5?
Gashes, arrow wounds, wow, he definitely had more than 10hp!

Nice Fortitude saves, too

Rock!

[ivanmarsh]

Scientists discover 5,300 year old, mumified, Italian badass.

Next season on NBC:

Law and Order: Special Caveman Unit

A Fighter?

[efuseekay]

Come on, he has a knife and a bow, is dressed in leather armor, so he must be a RANGER!

Not Necessarily a Nice Neanderthal

[Spittoon]

Yeah I know, "not a neanderthal at all", but I couldn't resist the alliteration.

"Otzi" is a nice cute name. Maybe if they'd named him something like "Shiv" or "Kane" people's imaginations wouldn't bestow such benevolent traits upon him automatically.

Maybe he was a cannibal, who was carrying someone he killed back to his lair to consume, when he was attacked by the brothers of his victim, who were intent upon ending his rein of terror over the local populace.

Or maybe I'm a cynic. Heh.

Re:DNA

[Mostly Harmless]

"Egarter matched the knife to the hand and found a deep gash on the hand that had been missed in previous studies. He then found another cut on the left hand and bruises on the torso, as if Otzi had been beaten."

The article also shows the advancement in forensic analysis. What do they mean they missed a DEEP GASH on his hand? C'mon, guys. Eyeglasses were invented in Italy. Use them.

Blood on the back

[mce]

I must say that I find the theory that he caried a wounded friend a bit far fetched. The blood on his back may just as well have come from another attacker. Otzi may himself have been the one who wounded that man, or the man may have accidently wounded himself before or during the fight (e.g. by somehow hitting the rocks), or he may have been wounded by the mysterious friend of Otzi, or ...

While we're at it, for instance, let's speculate that Otzi simply found "his" cape after it had been lost by one of several other man who were indeed having a fight, but who never ever saw Otzi. It's improbable, but not impossible.

Remember that there are just about as many theories about what he was doing up there and how he died as there are (groups of) people who looked into it all.

Why do we assume he was a hero?

[digger3001]

Maybe he wasn't a good guy, but a murderer or rapist who was carrying away his "treasure" and being chased by the local peoples.

It's interesting how people automatically assume he was some explorer, a hero of his time.

Dig

Re:Why do we assume he was a hero?

[watzinaneihm]

He had an unused axe which is an indicator of status. So he must be a chieftain.
He was 46 and probably a grandfather, and he had blood on his cloak trying to carry his wounded friend. So he must be a good guy
He fought and killed two of his assailants - so he is brave
Or he killed his chieftain,stole his axe, raped his daughter and was trying to kidnap her and hid in a ravine and sneakily and using "terrorist" tactics killed two of the chieftains sons
Unlikely, but possible. But then again it should be a perfectly valid thing to do, Just read hamlet.

O.J. Now looking for the real killers.

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

Otsi J. was seen driving away in a white Ford Flinstonemobile.

not too important, but his name is not Otzi

[Anonymous Coward]

Due to the lack of the correct Umlaut character in english, you made his name "Otzi".

In fact its "Oetzi", or with the correct Umlaut its "Otzi" (an O with two dots on top)

The name comes from the area "Oetztal" where he was found.

Too bad he didnt carry his ID, maybe his real name is Larry or so.

Re:No wonder everything is so boring lately

[bytesmythe]

While we're at it, I'm beginning to think this whole "rule of law" thing is going too far, myself. It does nothing for the sense of "vengeance" human societies were founded upon for millennia.

How many people have you met that leave you shaking your head as you walk away? They're whiny, stuck-up, self-centered, or complete assholes. It's because we aren't allowed to beat the hell out of people who fully deserve it. In a more "natural" sort of human society, being a jerk is a crime, and can get you a severe ass kicking.

Let's get rid of these silly laws and get back to the good ol' days!

(Note for the humor impaired: this post is meant only half-seriously. It is in no way an attack on the parent post, nor is it meant as a real suggestion that we return to a state of complete lawlessness. I think the parent post [and mine] have a real point to make, though. A fundamental part of our human brain evolved to handle an environment that we almost never exposed to now, and a 9-5 job is no match for beating sabre-tooth tigers with clubs. *grin*)

Next thing ya know...

[peacefinder]

They'll discover that he actually had *three* arrows in him, and a cloven horn by his side. Turns out that jerk Aragorn didn't put Boromir in a boat after all.

Congratulations, Dig, you just rediscovered ...

[jeko]

Rorschach blots. There have been a billion studies of exactly this question, and the answer is...

we see what we want to. And what we want are heroes, not villians. Given an unknown, we want that unknown to be Vin Diesel fighting the good fight, not Ted Bundy making of with a co-ed.