That's a 42 bit address bus, which can address around 4.4 terabytes.
-- Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
Re:Article?
by
Warpedcow
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· Score: 2, Informative
> Still waiting for IBM's Model to come out. Not much yet.
They've been out awhile. You can find IBM's Power4 (which the 970 spun-off from) in their pSeries and iSeries machines, I believe. Certainly the iSeries, I've been working with their 6-way i825 all summer. Its a beast! Of course, it also costs a quarter mil or so...
Theoretically, the 64-bit data paths let the Power PC G5 access up to 4 terabytes of physical memory.
-- -palp
Re:Article?
by
clarkcox3
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· Score: 2, Informative
8GB?? Sounds like it's a 64-bit processor with a 33-bit address bus.
No, it's a motherboard with 8 memory slots. (i.e. the 8GB limit is one of physical size on the motherboard, not a logical one of how much memory the chip can actually address.
Even the 32-bit P4 can address 64GB
No, it can't. 4 GB is the maximum that any 32-bit processor can address
-- There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
"On a 32bit system, there can only be 2^32 addressable bytes (4GB). Intel had kind of cheated and added a couple of extra bits that the operating system can use, allowing a full 64GB, although any one process only has access to 4GB at a time."
1.6GHz PowerPC G5 800MHz frontside bus 512K L2 cache 256MB DDR333 128-bit SDRAM Expandable to 4GB SDRAM 80GB Serial ATA SuperDrive Three PCI Slots NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR video memory 56K internal modem
$2,399.00
1.8GHz PowerPC G5 900MHz frontside bus 512K L2 cache 512MB DDR400 128-bit SDRAM Expandable to 8GB SDRAM 160GB Serial ATA SuperDrive Three PCI-X Slots NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR video memory 56K internal modem
beware the differences between the 1.6 & the 1
by
Tumbleweed
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· Score: 4, Informative
Okay, I just noticed this today (forgive me for being slow), but there are 2 potentially-important differences between the 1.6GHz machine and the 1.8GHz machine:
1) The 1.6 only uses DDR333 memory, not DDR400 (I dunno if it can make use of DDR400 if you replace the DDR333 it comes with). The DDR400 being used in the 1.8 & 2.0 machines is apparently not that great (typical of Apple!). I'm wondering if the mobo can handle some Mushkin 2-2-2 PC3200 RAM if I got it? 2) The 1.6 can 'only' use up to 4GB of memory, vs 8GB for the 1.8 and 2.0 machines.
FYI if either of these things bugs you, be warned. Shop smart, shop...S-Mart!
Re:The last of the Apple-based OSX machines?
by
StarmanDeluxe
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· Score: 2, Informative
The PPC Processors work very well. Considering the tons of time and money that must have been poured into the research of the G5, there is (approximately) a 0% chance of Macs switching to x86.
This was a semi-viable (though far-fetched) rumor before the G5s debuted; now it's just standard FUD.
Re:it's about freaking time!
by
NaugaHunter
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· Score: 2, Informative
doh...apple said they would ship at the end of the summer.
For the record, Summer ends with the Solstice around Sept. 20/21. So they're actually a month early.
-- R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before?
B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
And FreeBSD is what?
by
nonameisgood
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· Score: 2, Informative
If you haven't heard, the kernel on which Mac OS X is based is BSD. Steve Jobs finally has his hardware-abstracted OS (as they have been planning for 10 years). Just tweak the Intel-based BSD kernels and you're there.
However, why change to Intel/AMD, when the PPC is such a fabulous chip.
Apple's thing is to keep the hardware proprietary, so the system doesn't become a nightmare of (marginally incompatible) pieces (as GNU/Linux is fast becoming) most end users are concerned about function, not customizing the hardware - anyway, there will always be a way around hardware restrictions.
Keep X network savvy
-- Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
Re:And FreeBSD is what?
by
Ffakr
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· Score: 2, Informative
actually, the kernel is Mach. The core of the OS is Darwin. Darwin is based off FreeBSD. Mach is based off... Mach. Freebsd has a different kernel.
Mach has run on x86 though (NeXT ran Mach on x86).
--
I'm not feeling witty so bite me
Re:Rumors for powerbook?
by
XplosiveX
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· Score: 1, Informative
Digit Magazine has rumors of the G5 powerbook showing up in February 2004. Source
Re:The last of the Apple-based OSX machines?
by
jeremyp
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· Score: 3, Informative
Not even remotely true. OS X is based on the Mach kernel with a BSD userland. On top of that they put the Aqua windowing system. The only thing it has in common with Linux is that you build it with gcc.
-- All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
What does packaging have got to do with anything? Does "packaging" encode your OGGs or AVIs any faster? No? Does it get you higher score on Seti? No it doesn't? Does it compile Linux kernel any faster, no it doesn't.
This really touches on the difference between apple and most wintel retailers. It's all about Quality. Quality is a basic aspect of the way we understand reality which underlies both the classicist and romanticist systems of thought. By refering to a list of easily measurable benchmarks, you are nailing your colors to the flag of classicist thinking and opposing the romanticist side of the product. Thinking that this is OK is how horrible products are created. Some people spend their whole lives laboring under this kind of thinking; you don't have to if you think about Quality. (Full disclosure: I'm reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance right now).
Re:OS X version 10.2.7?
by
WHudson
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· Score: 2, Informative
The latest version os O X is actually 10.2.6. Included in OS 10.2.7 is a new version of gcc optimized for the G5, along with a few other optimizations. Basically it's the sort of thing included in Apple's Dec 2002 gcc updater (available on their (a href="http://developer.apple.com">developer site).
Re:Not the fastest anymore
by
m00by
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· Score: 2, Informative
you crack monkey. there IS NO DUAL Pentium 4 system, anywhere. dual 3.2Ghz Xeons, yes, but Pentium 4's no! tell us about a plausible lie, please, not a complete fabrication!!!! have a nice day:)
Re:Not the fastest anymore
by
the_2nd_coming
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· Score: 2, Informative
GCC is made for the x86 chip pal. it was ported to PPC and alpha. it is optimized for x86 and if you had not noticed, GCC is always tested against ICC when new releases are out.
GCC verses GCC on different chips is as fair as you can get.
I think it says something about your benchmarks though that GCC is that close to ICC. and half optimized compiler for the PPC is with in.4 of a super optimized compiler on x86.
The best thing about them is OSX. Most of the advantages of Linux, along with a GUI that beats the crap out of Windows.
They are a little slower for the money than a typical Windows clone, on most benchmarks - much faster on a handful. In practical terms you aren't likely to notice the difference.
Naturally the hardware integration, drivers, and so forth are superb, being a single-source supplier.
-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Re:hurray for apple
by
WatertonMan
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· Score: 2, Informative
Except that the native Quark sucks royal ass from everything I've read. So a lot will switch to InDesigned which has a rumored upgrade coming with the new year.
There was a survey at a conference filled with "publishing pros" that said only 17% of them had switched to OSX. I find that hard to believe, but it gets quoted a lot. This may fix that. Honestly I can't understand why anyone would stay with OS9 given its many flaws and weaknesses. But never underestimate the power of inertia. People prefer gradual evolution to change. And OSX is nearly as big a change from OS9 as moving to XP is.
The big issue is that finally Apple has a system with enough data transfer to really be killer on many graphics problems. Expect high end grpahics cards to be out within six months. (Prediction, not knowledge)
Honestly though, if you get a dual G4 then OSX is plenty fast enough. I'm still lusting after the G5's but will probably get a second generation one because my dual 867 still does me so well. One must wonder if this won't aid the switchers who weren't exactly switching in large numbers from XP to OSX. (Well, I did, but that's a different matter - an XP box is still my primary work box with OSX my primary home box. If the development tools were as good as Visual Studio I'd probably switch entirely)
Re:hurray for apple
by
WatertonMan
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· Score: 4, Informative
I believe the memory manager in Panther is 64-bit aware. The special version of Jaguar (10.2.7) that initially ships with the G5's allows 64-bit applications and thus presumably has some memory issues dealt with. Panther isn't fully 64-bit, but most aspects of the OS don't really need it to be honest. (And neither do most applications)
Re:ObWhines
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Informative
http://www.apple.com/powermac/ "NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra."
$110 is not half of $600.
Re:ObWhines
by
Slack3r78
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· Score: 5, Informative
You know, I'm an x86 fan, and I build all my own machines simply because I enjoy it, but I have to disagree with you on the price thing. Out of curiousity due to your post, I put this together to see how a similarly spec'd PC would compare as far as pricing goes. Now compare it to Apple's offering.
I realize it's an Opteron, which is technically a server processor, but it's the only currently available chip which I would say is comparable to the G5. And yeah, there's a 9600 Pro when the mobo doesn't have an AGP slot, but that's to keep the price comparison fair. So now the premium of the apple is only ~25% instead of 1000%.
I should also note that things like an operating system and peripherals were left out of my comparison system, since that cost is going to vary due to desire/needs in the x86 world.
So basically you get a bare 1.8GHz dual Opteron for about $600 cheaper than a 2.0GHz dual G5. While, like I said, I'm an x86 fan and I like building my own systems, I could definitely rationalize a G5 purchase, and I don't exactly fall into their target demographic anyway. I really think Apple's got their act together with the G5 line. While to those of us used to building full systems of commodity hardware for a few hundred dollars, it sounds high, but in all reality, the pricing on the new systems is rather fair.
Re:New G5 dual 2.0 orders don't ship until novembe
by
Rosyna
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· Score: 2, Informative
AFAIK and can guess, this is the last legal date they can give you before it becomes... lame (I don't know the name for it) in either all or some states. This way if the quote a date like next week and you get it a week later you won't be all pissed. But if you get quoted November (or in my case October) and you get it in late August you're just super happy because it was 1-2 months early.
Re:hurray for apple
by
Hes+Nikke
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· Score: 3, Informative
Hey, it's not like Apple haven't had production problems before now (*cough* G4 cube) so maybe this is smart anyway.
if by "production problems" you mean "didn't know when to stop," then yes, apple had problems with the production of the PM G4 Cube.;)
i wish that apple had properly priced that line! if you had a choice of $2000 for a non-expandable though small brick computer, or $1500 for an expandable G4 tower at the same speed, which would you do?
exactly.
-- Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
Re:hurray for apple
by
WatertonMan
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· Score: 4, Informative
Xcode is very cool. However my problems with Project Builder relate to their very limited debugging tools and not compile speed.
My big problem is that the type of code I deal with often involves very subtle bugs. To fix the bugs I must go though the code in many many steps. PB doesn't retain your watch variables between calls to the debugger. That means when I restart the code to re-examine a process I have to retype in all my variables or else put printf's in the code. Compare this to Visual Studio which has amazingly simple and easy to use watch panes - four of them in fact. It is easy to "drill down" into structs and classes. And most importantly they retain their variables each time I restart the debugger.
I've asked a few people playing around with Xcode and by and large the changes to the actual debugging UI is only superficially changed. I've sent in lots of feedback to Apple but nothing has been done. This is amazing to me as adding something like Visual Studio's debugging panes would not be very hard. I'd be very, very surprised if it would take more than a week of work. But for reasons known only to them, Apple has not done it. And thus I primarily debug in Visual Studio.
Re:hurray for apple
by
mekkab
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· Score: 4, Informative
I do some kernel programming in AIX for ibm pSeries machines, which are 64 bit chips. The OS has a 32 bit emulation mode. SO everyone will use that to begin with. Then, certain devices and drivers will require 64bit, and the apps will follow afterwards.
THAT will most likely be driven buy how many people buy the machines and what sort of market demand there is.
And yes, we are talking months, maybe years.
BEsides- you'll see more performance gain from the GHZ rating rather than from the 64-bit-ness, (unless you have a need for LOTS of addressable ram. 64bit is a virtual memory manager's dream.
-- In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Re:2 things keeping market share down
by
Hes+Nikke
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· Score: 2, Informative
well the educational price, is only $1800, but who says that you need a powermac for school? unless your doing high end science, i'd say that an iBook at $949 is probably what you want (based on the limited information you gave me);)
-- Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
Re:Soon we will have 64-bit laptops
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Informative
I did address them in my orignal posting; in particular, the tadpoles weigh more than seven pounds. The portable macs are in the 5-7 pound range; the one powerbook that weighs as much as a tadpole has a 17" screen.
Re:I'm good for it
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Informative
Re:New G5 dual 2.0 orders don't ship until novembe
by
chfriley
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· Score: 2, Informative
>got a quote of november at the earliest for s ship date. So much for G5 production
Apple's web site lists "5-7 weeks" which puts at mid-September. Just fyi.
Re:hurray for apple
by
MouseR
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· Score: 4, Informative
My big problem is that the type of code I deal with often involves very subtle bugs. To fix the bugs I must go though the code in many many steps. PB doesn't retain your watch variables between calls to the debugger. That means when I restart the code to re-examine a process I have to retype in all my variables or else put printf's in the code. Compare this to Visual Studio which has amazingly simple and easy to use watch panes - four of them in fact. It is easy to "drill down" into structs and classes. And most importantly they retain their variables each time I restart the debugger.
How about NOT having to leave your debugging session when you make simple changes?
Check out XCode's features, notably the Fix And Continue and ZeroLink.
It makes fixing silly things a snappy process, and you don't need to restart your test suite to get back to the same point. Just fix WHILE you debug, recompile the fixed code and resume execution where you left off, foregoing any application re-initialization (such as connecting back to a server).
In the line of keeping the comparison fair, I think you should also mention, that your selected motherboard does not only lack the AGP slot as you admitted, it also neither supports DDR400, nor Firewire 800 and 400 as the G5's do, I believe. Let alone that it's "only" 1.8 GHz Opteron vs 2 GHz PPC970. Performance-wise, this is probably irrelevant, regarding the marketing and the price it is not. From my experiences prices for new processors increase sharply the higher the frequencies.
I couldn't check the case you selected, however I would expect Apple's case to look much better:-) Besides, it's metal not plastic. For some people, this doesn't mean much, too me however, it does. Although I am a computer science student and am mostly able to deal with the more nasty subtleties of a Windows box, I just don't want to. I'm not a system administrator and don't want to be one. I want a system which gets the job done as nicely and with as little fuss as possible. Usually, this rules out Windows as well as Linux. OS X together with a more recent Mac is an excellent coalition of Unix and an elegant UI.
The G5 really is all that.
by
GPS+Pilot
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· Score: 2, Informative
-- That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Re:hurray for apple
by
nelsonal
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· Score: 2, Informative
At $2500 per box, which might be a little high, that's a quarter billion in revenue on a month and a half of pre-orders. No where near Dell numbers yet, (PC revenues are around $130 billion/yr) but it would probably move the workstation market a few points, which marketing notwithstanding is what these are much closer to in function and price.
-- Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Re:hurray for apple
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Informative
The memory manager in Mac OS X 10.2.7 is 64-bit aware too.
Re:hurray for apple
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 1, Informative
You forgot 3) the G4s were obviously inferior in terms of their bandwidth, with a motherboard that was unable to take full advantage of the DDR RAM. You were paying full price for an architecturally crippled machine, but not so any longer with the G5. This was a big reason I was holding back on a new Mac.
Re:hurray for apple
by
SethJohnson
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· Score: 4, Informative
Perhaps this is a troll.
Macs are hardly known for their long shelf life
I'll bite. My personal experience and observations culled from working at many Mac-based offices is that Macs have a much longer lifespan that PCs. As an example, I am still using the 450mhz B/W G3 I bought in 1999 for $1800. My Dad is using a 400mhz B/W G3 he bought the same year. Both machines are running OS X.2 just fine. The only thing that had us teetering on upgrading in the past few years was the prospect of digital video editing with real-time rendering. The G5 has pretty much convinced me it's time to upgrade. Four years later and I've got a computer I can still probably sell for a couple of hundred bucks. That lowers my cost of upgrading to a G5. I think a 1999 intel-based PC will probably cost you money to dispose of through a recycler these days.
I'm not beating the "macs are better" drum here. I'm just comparing the lifespan of the mac to pc.
Re:hurray for apple
by
li99sh79
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· Score: 2, Informative
I don't know about you, but I feel rather uneasy about the whole prospect. Macs are hardly known for their long shelf life (i.e. builtin obscelesence) so it seems that the best strategy is to wait for a machine which actually delivers on its promises (and throws in some extra Ghz in the meantime) and not some half baked go-between.
Actually, back when I was working for my alma mater's academic IT department the life-span of a Mac was 5 years, and they've been pretty good at keeping the old stuff working with the new stuff, recent lawsuits nonwithstanding.
Then again Apple does update their product line on a pretty quick basis. They're like the auto industry in that way. Every year car makers come out with the latest design of their models with all sorts of new whiz-bangs. Hell, Dell and the boys are the same way, only difference is that Apple makes a big show out of their new model years computers, like the auto industry.
-sam
-- I was just here, where did I go?
Re:hurray for apple
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 1, Informative
How many times more does it need to be said? 32 bit apps are supported NATIVELY in PPC970. NO EMULATOR is necessary. Sorry for being a bit harsh, but I am tired of hearing how 32 bit apps will run in emulation, implying that there will be performance hit. And yes, the bridge will be there for years, until Apple and IBM decide that it would no longer necessary.
And the performance gain will also come from the really fat FSB. Now memory is the bottleneck... wonders never cease.
Re:ObWhines
by
wolrahnaes
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· Score: 3, Informative
I was doing a similar price comparo, so I started with the Dual 2GHz G5, put in 1GB of RAM, 500GB of HD, the Radeon 9800, and removed the modem.
Summary
Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5
1GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x512
2x250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English
Mac OS X - U.S. English
Subtotal $4,045.00
I then configured an all-out G5 Fighter using prices from pricewatch.
This is what I came up with, part by part
Case: Lian Li PC-6070 ($153) This all-aluminum case has great looks as well as front panel USB2.0 ports. It is as similar to the G5's case as I could find.
Processors: 2x AMD Opteron 246 ($799 each) 2GHz, 64 bit...as close to equal as possible
Mobo: Rioworks HDAMB ($415) Being the only dual Opteron board with AGP, this was a given. It also included onboard Gigabit LAN, SATA, USB2.0, 1394, and 5.1 surround.
RAM: 2x Samsung DDR400 512MB ($85 each) Even though the Opterons only use DDR333, this was supposed to be as even as possible, and for $10 extra, why not up to DDR400 for future-proofing
Video Card: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB ($318) Should be the exact same card
Optical Drive: Pioneer DVR-A06 ($166) The SuperDrive is AFAIK this same drive or an earlier revision
Hard Drives: 2x Western Digital WD2500JD ($308 each) Should be the same
PSU: Sparkle Power 460 ($81) 460w PSU with the EPS12V connectors needed by the motherboard
Mouse: Logitech MX500 ($32) The mouse is tough to make even, with no 1 button mice for PCs, so I chose one of the best mice (mouses?) available today.
Keyboard: Logitech Elite ($8) This is a nice keyboard, far better than Apple's keyboard.
OS: SuSE Linux Enterprise Server AMD64 ($448) Since you have to buy MacOS with the Apple, I included the only fully tested distribution quality OS for AMD64. This would likely be left off and most people would just recompile what they have for 64 bit use.
In total, with shipping, here are the costs for the AMD system: With SuSE: $4064.13 W/out OS : $3616.13
Bringing back the G5, that was $4045. The AMD64 system basically has the same parts, but comes up $428.87
Basically, if you value the time that it would take to assemble the above system and install/configure the OS (basically doing a Linux From Scratch to compile everything for AMD64) at more than the difference, the G5 is likely a better choice. Either one has all the software compatibility you could want. The G5 will run all of your old MacOS (or PPC Linux) apps, and the AMD64 system will run any old x86 app.
My opinion is that the pricing is even enough to negate that from the consideration.
Kudos to Apple.
-- I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Re:Text console?
by
Bob[Bob]
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· Score: 5, Informative
Erm, so what happens when your enter ">console" as your username in the login box?
Re:It's Not That Complicated
by
larkost
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· Score: 4, Informative
LCD's win in a number of areas:
Power Consumption
Space
No Flicker (really important if you stare at a monitor all day)
Possible digital connection (never have to adjust geometry)
Weight/Portability
Better pixel-to-pixel contrast (on digitals)
And if you get the right screens (mostly LeCei or Apple), they have beautiful color correction, at a par with the best CRT's.
This is vs. CTR's advantages:
Higher luminocity
Average color space is better (with exceptions above)
lower cost
higher refresh rate (important only in games)
So, I think your "CRT's blow lcd's away" comment is unwarranted.
Re:Text console?
by
Lifewolf
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· Score: 2, Informative
Cause, like... there isn't one.
sudo/usr/sbin/nvram boot-args="-v"
Then, as root, open/etc/ttys in a text editor. Comment out the line similar to console "/System/Library/CoreServices/loginwindow.app/Cont ents/MacOS/loginwindow ", and uncomment the line similar to console "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure
-- "Be Happy or Die." -- AoN
Re:beware the differences between the 1.6 & th
by
tantalus
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· Score: 4, Informative
The DDR400 being used in the 1.8 & 2.0 machines is apparently not that great (typical of Apple!)
Actually, Apple is using very nice samsung memory (with a lifetime warranty in the g5s. And if you click on the picture in that link, you'll see that those are samsung chips on a samsung PCB, which is the same RAM corsair, OCZ, and even mushkin has often used to get outstanding overclockable memory. These manufacturers just test the memory (if you're lucky) and cover it up with a heatspreader, which will void your warranty if you remove it to see what's underneath.
Re:hurray for apple
by
Mr.+Show
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· Score: 3, Informative
Please keep in mind when complaining about PB and XCode that while PB is free, and XCode will at a minimum come free with Panther, Visual Studio.NET can cost you anywhere from $549 to $2,499, depending on the package you choose.
Re:hurray for apple
by
selderrr
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· Score: 1, Informative
umpf... as a professional developer, even $2499 is recovered in a few days when you're tracking an extremely nasty bug. Sorry, but providing devtoosl for free does not stack up against the ease of use of MSDevTools. Really. I'm an apple developer and a win32 developer (not.net yet) and as far as devtools go, apple still is a distent second to MSVC. Not only the saveable state, but also spy++ and the customseable C++ object inspector (you can declare a function in your C++ object that will be called by the debugger whe you inspect an object. The String restult of this function in displayed in the debugger) are superior. Not to mentiojn the insane speed difference.
The only reason i'd buy a G5 is to get a decent debugger (speed wise) at last.
Re:Wow, this is totally wrong
by
DrXym
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· Score: 1, Informative
What I mean is that after 4 or so years Apple basically dump support for a model. As soon as you buy a Mac, the clock is already ticking on how long you can expect the operating system and new software to work on it. Look at people who own a G3 towers, and ask if their days are numbered now.
The same is not true at all in PC land because even if you have a machine which is genuinely so obsolete that it couldn't run XP for example, you could still swap parts out of it until it could. A case in point would be a Gateway 450 that I own - I replaced the motherboard, stuck in a faster Athlon and more memory and it's as good as new, all with off the shelf parts. I even have an older machine (now retired) which was 12 years old, starting first as a 486sx 25Mhz (before the first Gulf war no less), then upgrading to a DX266, then a DX4100, and then a P133. Even up to the end it still served a purpose, running Mandrake Linux as a firewall.
Try that with a Mac sometime. If you're lucky some third party will offer some accelerator board but for the price of those you might as well go out and buy a new Mac. Still, I suppose when all's said and done you might be able to install Linux on it, but forget running OS X.
Slashdot Mirror
You could like to an article, like The Register or Apple PR itself.
"Men lie."
"Yeah, about sleeping with other women, but never about bioluminescent plankton."
-Dan Brown
100,000 pre-orders according to Apple PR. Which you would have found if you had read this.
--Quentin
that Apple has over 100,000 pre-orders of the Power Mac G5. See the link.
Checkout the press release.
dani++
from the Apple store:
$1,999.00
1.6GHz PowerPC G5
800MHz frontside bus
512K L2 cache
256MB DDR333 128-bit SDRAM
Expandable to 4GB SDRAM
80GB Serial ATA
SuperDrive
Three PCI Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem
$2,399.00
1.8GHz PowerPC G5
900MHz frontside bus
512K L2 cache
512MB DDR400 128-bit SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
SuperDrive
Three PCI-X Slots
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem
Okay, I just noticed this today (forgive me for being slow), but there are 2 potentially-important differences between the 1.6GHz machine and the 1.8GHz machine:
1) The 1.6 only uses DDR333 memory, not DDR400 (I dunno if it can make use of DDR400 if you replace the DDR333 it comes with). The DDR400 being used in the 1.8 & 2.0 machines is apparently not that great (typical of Apple!). I'm wondering if the mobo can handle some Mushkin 2-2-2 PC3200 RAM if I got it?
2) The 1.6 can 'only' use up to 4GB of memory, vs 8GB for the 1.8 and 2.0 machines.
FYI if either of these things bugs you, be warned. Shop smart, shop...S-Mart!
The PPC Processors work very well. Considering the tons of time and money that must have been poured into the research of the G5, there is (approximately) a 0% chance of Macs switching to x86.
This was a semi-viable (though far-fetched) rumor before the G5s debuted; now it's just standard FUD.
doh...apple said they would ship at the end of the summer.
For the record, Summer ends with the Solstice around Sept. 20/21. So they're actually a month early.
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
If you haven't heard, the kernel on which Mac OS X is based is BSD. Steve Jobs finally has his hardware-abstracted OS (as they have been planning for 10 years). Just tweak the Intel-based BSD kernels and you're there.
However, why change to Intel/AMD, when the PPC is such a fabulous chip.
Apple's thing is to keep the hardware proprietary, so the system doesn't become a nightmare of (marginally incompatible) pieces (as GNU/Linux is fast becoming) most end users are concerned about function, not customizing the hardware - anyway, there will always be a way around hardware restrictions.
Keep X network savvy
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
Digit Magazine has rumors of the G5 powerbook showing up in February 2004. Source
Not even remotely true.
OS X is based on the Mach kernel with a BSD userland. On top of that they put the Aqua windowing system. The only thing it has in common with Linux is that you build it with gcc.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
What does packaging have got to do with anything? Does "packaging" encode your OGGs or AVIs any faster? No? Does it get you higher score on Seti? No it doesn't? Does it compile Linux kernel any faster, no it doesn't.
This really touches on the difference between apple and most wintel retailers. It's all about Quality. Quality is a basic aspect of the way we understand reality which underlies both the classicist and romanticist systems of thought. By refering to a list of easily measurable benchmarks, you are nailing your colors to the flag of classicist thinking and opposing the romanticist side of the product. Thinking that this is OK is how horrible products are created. Some people spend their whole lives laboring under this kind of thinking; you don't have to if you think about Quality. (Full disclosure: I'm reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance right now).
The latest version os O X is actually 10.2.6. Included in OS 10.2.7 is a new version of gcc optimized for the G5, along with a few other optimizations. Basically it's the sort of thing included in Apple's Dec 2002 gcc updater (available on their (a href="http://developer.apple.com">developer site).
you crack monkey. there IS NO DUAL Pentium 4 system, anywhere. dual 3.2Ghz Xeons, yes, but Pentium 4's no! tell us about a plausible lie, please, not a complete fabrication!!!! have a nice day :)
GCC is made for the x86 chip pal. it was ported to PPC and alpha. it is optimized for x86 and if you had not noticed, GCC is always tested against ICC when new releases are out.
.4 of a super optimized compiler on x86.
GCC verses GCC on different chips is as fair as you can get.
I think it says something about your benchmarks though that GCC is that close to ICC. and half optimized compiler for the PPC is with in
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
The best thing about them is OSX. Most of the advantages of Linux, along with a GUI that beats the crap out of Windows.
They are a little slower for the money than a typical Windows clone, on most benchmarks - much faster on a handful. In practical terms you aren't likely to notice the difference.
Naturally the hardware integration, drivers, and so forth are superb, being a single-source supplier.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
There was a survey at a conference filled with "publishing pros" that said only 17% of them had switched to OSX. I find that hard to believe, but it gets quoted a lot. This may fix that. Honestly I can't understand why anyone would stay with OS9 given its many flaws and weaknesses. But never underestimate the power of inertia. People prefer gradual evolution to change. And OSX is nearly as big a change from OS9 as moving to XP is.
The big issue is that finally Apple has a system with enough data transfer to really be killer on many graphics problems. Expect high end grpahics cards to be out within six months. (Prediction, not knowledge)
Honestly though, if you get a dual G4 then OSX is plenty fast enough. I'm still lusting after the G5's but will probably get a second generation one because my dual 867 still does me so well. One must wonder if this won't aid the switchers who weren't exactly switching in large numbers from XP to OSX. (Well, I did, but that's a different matter - an XP box is still my primary work box with OSX my primary home box. If the development tools were as good as Visual Studio I'd probably switch entirely)
I believe the memory manager in Panther is 64-bit aware. The special version of Jaguar (10.2.7) that initially ships with the G5's allows 64-bit applications and thus presumably has some memory issues dealt with. Panther isn't fully 64-bit, but most aspects of the OS don't really need it to be honest. (And neither do most applications)
http://www.apple.com/powermac/
"NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra."
$110 is not half of $600.
You know, I'm an x86 fan, and I build all my own machines simply because I enjoy it, but I have to disagree with you on the price thing. Out of curiousity due to your post, I put this together to see how a similarly spec'd PC would compare as far as pricing goes. Now compare it to Apple's offering.
I realize it's an Opteron, which is technically a server processor, but it's the only currently available chip which I would say is comparable to the G5. And yeah, there's a 9600 Pro when the mobo doesn't have an AGP slot, but that's to keep the price comparison fair. So now the premium of the apple is only ~25% instead of 1000%.
I should also note that things like an operating system and peripherals were left out of my comparison system, since that cost is going to vary due to desire/needs in the x86 world. So basically you get a bare 1.8GHz dual Opteron for about $600 cheaper than a 2.0GHz dual G5. While, like I said, I'm an x86 fan and I like building my own systems, I could definitely rationalize a G5 purchase, and I don't exactly fall into their target demographic anyway. I really think Apple's got their act together with the G5 line. While to those of us used to building full systems of commodity hardware for a few hundred dollars, it sounds high, but in all reality, the pricing on the new systems is rather fair.
AFAIK and can guess, this is the last legal date they can give you before it becomes... lame (I don't know the name for it) in either all or some states. This way if the quote a date like next week and you get it a week later you won't be all pissed. But if you get quoted November (or in my case October) and you get it in late August you're just super happy because it was 1-2 months early.
Hey, it's not like Apple haven't had production problems before now (*cough* G4 cube) so maybe this is smart anyway.
;)
if by "production problems" you mean "didn't know when to stop," then yes, apple had problems with the production of the PM G4 Cube.
i wish that apple had properly priced that line! if you had a choice of $2000 for a non-expandable though small brick computer, or $1500 for an expandable G4 tower at the same speed, which would you do?
exactly.
Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
My big problem is that the type of code I deal with often involves very subtle bugs. To fix the bugs I must go though the code in many many steps. PB doesn't retain your watch variables between calls to the debugger. That means when I restart the code to re-examine a process I have to retype in all my variables or else put printf's in the code. Compare this to Visual Studio which has amazingly simple and easy to use watch panes - four of them in fact. It is easy to "drill down" into structs and classes. And most importantly they retain their variables each time I restart the debugger.
I've asked a few people playing around with Xcode and by and large the changes to the actual debugging UI is only superficially changed. I've sent in lots of feedback to Apple but nothing has been done. This is amazing to me as adding something like Visual Studio's debugging panes would not be very hard. I'd be very, very surprised if it would take more than a week of work. But for reasons known only to them, Apple has not done it. And thus I primarily debug in Visual Studio.
I do some kernel programming in AIX for ibm pSeries machines, which are 64 bit chips. The OS has a 32 bit emulation mode. SO everyone will use that to begin with. Then, certain devices and drivers will require 64bit, and the apps will follow afterwards.
THAT will most likely be driven buy how many people buy the machines and what sort of market demand there is.
And yes, we are talking months, maybe years.
BEsides- you'll see more performance gain from the GHZ rating rather than from the 64-bit-ness, (unless you have a need for LOTS of addressable ram. 64bit is a virtual memory manager's dream.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
well the educational price, is only $1800, but who says that you need a powermac for school? unless your doing high end science, i'd say that an iBook at $949 is probably what you want (based on the limited information you gave me) ;)
Don't call me back. Give me a call back. Bye. So yeah. But bye our, well, but alright we are on a shirt this chill.
I did address them in my orignal posting; in particular, the tadpoles weigh more than seven pounds. The portable macs are in the 5-7 pound range; the one powerbook that weighs as much as a tadpole has a 17" screen.
Yes. Apple does.
>got a quote of november at the earliest for s ship date. So much for G5 production
Apple's web site lists "5-7 weeks" which puts at mid-September. Just fyi.
My big problem is that the type of code I deal with often involves very subtle bugs. To fix the bugs I must go though the code in many many steps. PB doesn't retain your watch variables between calls to the debugger. That means when I restart the code to re-examine a process I have to retype in all my variables or else put printf's in the code. Compare this to Visual Studio which has amazingly simple and easy to use watch panes - four of them in fact. It is easy to "drill down" into structs and classes. And most importantly they retain their variables each time I restart the debugger.
How about NOT having to leave your debugging session when you make simple changes?
Check out XCode's features, notably the Fix And Continue and ZeroLink.
It makes fixing silly things a snappy process, and you don't need to restart your test suite to get back to the same point. Just fix WHILE you debug, recompile the fixed code and resume execution where you left off, foregoing any application re-initialization (such as connecting back to a server).
In the line of keeping the comparison fair, I think you should also mention, that your selected motherboard does not only lack the AGP slot as you admitted, it also neither supports DDR400, nor Firewire 800 and 400 as the G5's do, I believe. Let alone that it's "only" 1.8 GHz Opteron vs 2 GHz PPC970. Performance-wise, this is probably irrelevant, regarding the marketing and the price it is not. From my experiences prices for new processors increase sharply the higher the frequencies.
:-) Besides, it's metal not plastic. For some people, this doesn't mean much, too me however, it does. Although I am a computer science student and am mostly able to deal with the more nasty subtleties of a Windows box, I just don't want to. I'm not a system administrator and don't want to be one. I want a system which gets the job done as nicely and with as little fuss as possible. Usually, this rules out Windows as well as Linux. OS X together with a more recent Mac is an excellent coalition of Unix and an elegant UI.
I couldn't check the case you selected, however I would expect Apple's case to look much better
Read why here.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
At $2500 per box, which might be a little high, that's a quarter billion in revenue on a month and a half of pre-orders. No where near Dell numbers yet, (PC revenues are around $130 billion/yr) but it would probably move the workstation market a few points, which marketing notwithstanding is what these are much closer to in function and price.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
The 1.8ghz version draws 42 watts.
The memory manager in Mac OS X 10.2.7 is 64-bit aware too.
You forgot 3) the G4s were obviously inferior in terms of their bandwidth, with a motherboard that was unable to take full advantage of the DDR RAM. You were paying full price for an architecturally crippled machine, but not so any longer with the G5. This was a big reason I was holding back on a new Mac.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Actually, back when I was working for my alma mater's academic IT department the life-span of a Mac was 5 years, and they've been pretty good at keeping the old stuff working with the new stuff, recent lawsuits nonwithstanding.
Then again Apple does update their product line on a pretty quick basis. They're like the auto industry in that way. Every year car makers come out with the latest design of their models with all sorts of new whiz-bangs. Hell, Dell and the boys are the same way, only difference is that Apple makes a big show out of their new model years computers, like the auto industry.
-samI was just here, where did I go?
How many times more does it need to be said? 32 bit apps are supported NATIVELY in PPC970. NO EMULATOR is necessary. Sorry for being a bit harsh, but I am tired of hearing how 32 bit apps will run in emulation, implying that there will be performance hit. And yes, the bridge will be there for years, until Apple and IBM decide that it would no longer necessary.
And the performance gain will also come from the really fat FSB. Now memory is the bottleneck... wonders never cease.
I then configured an all-out G5 Fighter using prices from pricewatch.
This is what I came up with, part by part
Case: Lian Li PC-6070 ($153)
This all-aluminum case has great looks as well as front panel USB2.0 ports. It is as similar to the G5's case as I could find.
Processors: 2x AMD Opteron 246 ($799 each)
2GHz, 64 bit...as close to equal as possible
Mobo: Rioworks HDAMB ($415)
Being the only dual Opteron board with AGP, this was a given. It also included onboard Gigabit LAN, SATA, USB2.0, 1394, and 5.1 surround.
RAM: 2x Samsung DDR400 512MB ($85 each)
Even though the Opterons only use DDR333, this was supposed to be as even as possible, and for $10 extra, why not up to DDR400 for future-proofing
Video Card: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB ($318)
Should be the exact same card
Optical Drive: Pioneer DVR-A06 ($166)
The SuperDrive is AFAIK this same drive or an earlier revision
Hard Drives: 2x Western Digital WD2500JD ($308 each)
Should be the same
PSU: Sparkle Power 460 ($81)
460w PSU with the EPS12V connectors needed by the motherboard
Mouse: Logitech MX500 ($32)
The mouse is tough to make even, with no 1 button mice for PCs, so I chose one of the best mice (mouses?) available today.
Keyboard: Logitech Elite ($8)
This is a nice keyboard, far better than Apple's keyboard.
OS: SuSE Linux Enterprise Server AMD64 ($448)
Since you have to buy MacOS with the Apple, I included the only fully tested distribution quality OS for AMD64. This would likely be left off and most people would just recompile what they have for 64 bit use.
In total, with shipping, here are the costs for the AMD system:
With SuSE: $4064.13
W/out OS : $3616.13
Bringing back the G5, that was $4045.
The AMD64 system basically has the same parts, but comes up $428.87
Basically, if you value the time that it would take to assemble the above system and install/configure the OS (basically doing a Linux From Scratch to compile everything for AMD64) at more than the difference, the G5 is likely a better choice. Either one has all the software compatibility you could want. The G5 will run all of your old MacOS (or PPC Linux) apps, and the AMD64 system will run any old x86 app.
My opinion is that the pricing is even enough to negate that from the consideration.
Kudos to Apple.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
Erm, so what happens when your enter ">console" as your username in the login box?
And if you get the right screens (mostly LeCei or Apple), they have beautiful color correction, at a par with the best CRT's.
This is vs. CTR's advantages:
So, I think your "CRT's blow lcd's away" comment is unwarranted.
sudo /usr/sbin/nvram boot-args="-v"
Then, as root, open /etc/ttys in a text editor. Comment out the line similar to console "/System/Library/CoreServices/loginwindow.app/Cont ents/MacOS/loginwindow ", and uncomment the line similar to console "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure
"Be Happy or Die." -- AoN
The DDR400 being used in the 1.8 & 2.0 machines is apparently not that great (typical of Apple!)
Actually, Apple is using very nice samsung memory (with a lifetime warranty in the g5s. And if you click on the picture in that link, you'll see that those are samsung chips on a samsung PCB, which is the same RAM corsair, OCZ, and even mushkin has often used to get outstanding overclockable memory. These manufacturers just test the memory (if you're lucky) and cover it up with a heatspreader, which will void your warranty if you remove it to see what's underneath.
Please keep in mind when complaining about PB and XCode that while PB is free, and XCode will at a minimum come free with Panther, Visual Studio .NET can cost you anywhere from $549 to $2,499, depending on the package you choose.
umpf... as a professional developer, even $2499 is recovered in a few days when you're tracking an extremely nasty bug. Sorry, but providing devtoosl for free does not stack up against the ease of use of MSDevTools. Really. I'm an apple developer and a win32 developer (not .net yet) and as far as devtools go, apple still is a distent second to MSVC. Not only the saveable state, but also spy++ and the customseable C++ object inspector (you can declare a function in your C++ object that will be called by the debugger whe you inspect an object. The String restult of this function in displayed in the debugger) are superior. Not to mentiojn the insane speed difference.
The only reason i'd buy a G5 is to get a decent debugger (speed wise) at last.
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
The same is not true at all in PC land because even if you have a machine which is genuinely so obsolete that it couldn't run XP for example, you could still swap parts out of it until it could. A case in point would be a Gateway 450 that I own - I replaced the motherboard, stuck in a faster Athlon and more memory and it's as good as new, all with off the shelf parts. I even have an older machine (now retired) which was 12 years old, starting first as a 486sx 25Mhz (before the first Gulf war no less), then upgrading to a DX266, then a DX4100, and then a P133. Even up to the end it still served a purpose, running Mandrake Linux as a firewall.
Try that with a Mac sometime. If you're lucky some third party will offer some accelerator board but for the price of those you might as well go out and buy a new Mac. Still, I suppose when all's said and done you might be able to install Linux on it, but forget running OS X.