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Russia Plans Martian Nuclear Station
An anonymous reader writes "The BBC reports that Russian scientists have announced plans to build a nuclear power station on Mars.
They say that all the necessary technical drawings have now been completed, and all will be ready for the construction work to begin. The power plant should be up and running by 2030."
Here come the fucking jokes.
...And so it was fortold by prophet Kim Stanley Robinson. Too bad the date was a little off.
And with all of the demand for a nuclear power plant on Mars, it's a miracle this wasn't created earlier!
they forgot to mention that this requires the US to have placed a whole union local of construction workers on the moon by 2025...
...That way, at least SOMEONE will set foot on Mars in my lifetime. I mean, jeez, Arthur C. Clarke thought we'd be to Saturn by now, and we probably would be if we'd kept up what we were doing in the 60's.
Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
There'll be a power station but still no manned missions by then.
Ah, pessimism...
This is ridiculous, Russia can't afford the upkeep on the International Space Station, let alone Mars adventures, even with the international support the article mentions, this is just hot air. It may be prestigious to be the first nation with a base on Mars, but it just isn't going to happen for Russia in the next 30 years.
Will it be called Chernobyl II?
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
On the bright side, after Red Planet and Mission to Mars, they can 'Pull A Chernobyl' and it'll still be only the third worst Mars disaster ever.
Please help metamoderate.
1. Build Nuclear Power Plant on Mars
2.
3. Profit!
But boy are those scientists going to be pissed when someone points out where Mars actually is.
I also love:
Scientists say that the station is now almost ready to be built - all they have to do is to find a way to protect staff and environment from radiation
What about the small problem of finding 6 people to go to Mars, to work in a nuclear power station for no people for 30 years?. I think they have been watching 'The Simpson's' too much.
So it needs people on Mars to run it, and people on Mars to take advantage of it. Do they actually have any firm plans for getting people to Mars?
I suppose maybe since it's so much easier to get hardward to Mars that maybe they'll send the nuclear power plant there and then use that to justify research into getting people over there. "After all, we've already got the equipment there for them to use, and it will be a waste if we don't send anyone."
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Building the transmission lines to bring the generated power to Earth is left as an exercise to the reader ?
They should think first on getting men on Mars. And then back to Earth. Alive. What to do there should be planned later, since of course there will be unpredicted issues about the environment. And there would be no point placing a power plant there if there were no people to use that power for something.
Bring on the IN SOVIET MARS jokes.
Is the biggest vaporware of world history... Even Duke Nukem Forever will be released before this ever happens =)
The power plant should be up and running by 2030.
Power station timelines rock. I'd love to propose this kind of schedule for my projects.
"New Version? Sure, we should start beta testing in (deep, echoing voice) the year 2030."
-n-
The main thing that will worry most people is where the fuel is comming from.
Uranium may well be available on Mars, but I can't imagine they will have the facilities to mine it.
If that means they have to take it from Earth then it could be messy if a launch goes wrong.
That said, I guess they won't need much fuel, its not like there are going to be any big cities any time soon...
Spell checker (c) creative spelling inc. (aka my dyslexic brain)
sell nuclear power plants to Iran and North Korea.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
More power to them! Oh, wait...
The BBC is reporting this? Wow, from the title, i would have thought that it would come from one of these fine sources.
20 mil and I will! Learn Esperanto with 20M others.
Perhaps the plausibility(laughability) of this project and the scale it will take might force some of the others countries with ambitious space ideas to start actively planning and persuing those ideas; at the benefit of the current space projects. If anything I think this idea seems more like a thought gambit, akin to "Well, here's what we've put on the table, how about you?" than an actual bid to get people or supplies onto Mars.
Let's keep in mind that patents are in place to keep lawyers employed and keep them litigating. -CatGrep
Is that the Russian space program is bankrupt. They had great difficulty even in maintaining their obligations to the ISS, and their shuttle program was scrapped and turned into a carnival ride. That is not to say that they don't have some great ideas and hardware. Maybe they can partner with India or China or the US and actually take their designs off the drawing board.
My rights don't need management.
Scientists say that the station is now almost ready to be built - all they have to do is to find a way to protect staff and environment from radiation.
All they have left to do is everything.
The enviromentalist always have a field day protesting whenever a sattelite goes up with a nuclear battery, unless the russians plan on mining uranium in space (unlikely)
Just imagine if something went wrong like chernobyl. Except this time it's 30 miles in the air where it can travel around the globe quite nicely.
Don't get me wrong, i'm all for space exploration, but the first hurdle Russia will have to overcome is a social one, not technilogical.
All this interest in space has me worried a bit. Not about people crashing down or reactors being pulverized in the atmosphere, but about the same flaw people made when using other forms of mass transportation for the first time. Standards. For example think of old railways; the rails used to be at different lengths apart, depending on which company owned said railway. That was a major bugger if you had to travel over railways owned by multiple companies. I think that between continents and some countires it's still an issue. And how about shipping? Everything used to be handled individually, using cargo nets and common cranes to lift goods on board. Nowadays everyone uses containers when shipping goods around the world. Lorries/trucks, trains, cranes and various things are used to transport containers around when they reach land and with great efficiency, when compared to the old way of unloading from ship, storing in warehouse, loading in train, transporting, unloading. Also important are pallets, which are more or less standardized these days.
The way this affects the current "space race" (a bit early to call it that but what the hell...) is that everyone is now developing their own transportation system. It's quite obvious that as a method of delivery, the shuttle is an immense failure due to extreme costs and limited capacity and that it's strong points are out of the scope of this comment. What would be ideal would be a solution where spacecraft can lift standard shipping containers (yes, those same ones used all over the world that can be carried around by various methods) into orbit and then to wherever the hell you want them. The fact that contianers are easy to get a hold of for machinery such as cranes should make them quite useful in space for both transport and storage. Just imagine a large structure made out of girders with container clamps all around and a few mobile crans to move stuff around...
Hate me!
1) Build an expensive nuclear power plant on an uninhabited planet.
2) ???
3) Profit?
The California State Governement is investigating a 210 million mile long extension cord. One representative gave the date of 2030 as the estimated date of completion.
Although I don't know whether the Russians can actually pull this off, it does demonstrate a very good idea.
Send the equipment ahead.
When the US sends a manned probe (unfortunately, it's highly unlikely that anyone else can do it, let alone do it first; only the US has the resources, finances, and expertise available to perform these feats of super-engineering), how much easier will the mission be if most of their cargo is already there ahead of them? Everything they'd need to build a base station and perform experiments would be ready and waiting, greatly simplifying the task of getting the astronauts there in the first place.
It's almost certainly a lot easier to get astronauts to Mars than it is to get astronauts and 100 tonnes of non-spaceflight equipment to Mars.
Seriously, though, Russia can't even keep up payments on the ISS. No one in the world right now has any plans on how to ship a live human being to Mars (and have him remain live there). "Technical drawings" alone won't cut it; I have some technical drawings in my closet that show how to build an SSTO spacecraft out of crayons (I was in kindergarten at the time of this techincal breakthrough), but I am not holding my breath waiting for NASA to knock on my door.
>|<*:=
Only $10,000 down! You make payment right now, I let you pick corner room or lake-side unit.
I suggest you read Slashdot
But have we evaluated the effects this may have on the Martians?
Such inspiring statements as:
"all they have to do is to find a way to protect staff and environment from radiation."
and:
"The only stumbling block is how to deliver ready-made building blocks to a construction site 300 million kilometres"
how could it not be a success?
I find it intriguing and interesting, even a bit exciting that they not only want to go to Mars, but that they want to build a base and a nuclear plant up there to power it. But the article (I know, I'm one of those weird people that actually reads the articles every now and then) was severely lacking in info. WHY do they want to go? For the mere "race" aspect? For research? In the article itself it states "the Red Planet is extremely inhospitable" and then also says how they want a permanent station there. That is a LOT of time, money, and resources for something trivial...yet they don't even mention what their main reason for all this is. Hmmm...anyone have any insights? Everyone excited and ready to see what this will be about in our lifetime?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
-"Mr President: the Russian plan backfired, the ship exploded and there is radiation all over the atmosphere."
-Bush: "We need to bomb the atmosphere, no radiation is going to fire back America..."
"I think this line is mostly filler"
Don't we have more money than Russia? And they dare exceed us in Space technology? And the word Nuclear is in there?
Call up G.W., and get Larry Ellison down here, I smell a hostile takeover!
There is a Russian version of the article, in which there is this paragraph (in my translation):
The scientists admit that they have no idea how this [taking large pre-built components and delivering them 300 mln km away] can be achieved. However, they are certain that once the station starts operating, all future inhabitants of Mars will have plenty of electrical power for many years to come.
Now THIS is what I call vaporware. :)
If you open yourself to the foo, You and foo become one.
I can see the headlines now:
All of Russia was plunged into total darkness tonight, when their Mars plant transmission lines were accidently severed by an orbiting Soyuz rocket piloted by a joyriding Lance Bass.
The world won't end in darkness, it'll end in family fun, with Coca-cola clouds behind a Big Mac sun.
No, don't you see? They're just planning this right now. Yes, they will need to get some people to Mars to take advantage of this so they also have a plan to build three giant spaceships to colonize the new planet. One will contain people that actually do work--builders, factory workers and the like--one will contain the thinkers and planners and one will contain all those vital middle level people, such as hairdressers and efficiency consultants. And guess which ship will blast off first?
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
Forget North Korea, now the Martians will have the bomb!
They'll do it anyway. And we'll have a half-assed and dangerous nuclear power plant on mars.
While I'm all for a mission to mars, it should be a very well financed, international, and permenent settlement. The people sent there should not be coming back.
.
Because the martians we see in movies don't look messed up enough, they need nuclear radiation to give their look the extra touch of "makes ya wanna vomit" style...
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
Well, if they've ALREADY finished the DRAWINGS, it's as good as done.
My Dragon is almost in my driveway too.
"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone."
~Epictetus
Between the radiation and the rather lengthy trip, will the first ones on Mars evolve into funny little men hell-bent on blowing up earth because it blocks their view of venus?
8==8 Bones 8==8
... isn't even worthy of the title "junk science." It's been debunked thoroughly.
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
2038-01-19T03:14:07Z... tick...
Warning, critical maintenance 2000 years overdue! Abort, Retry, Cancel?
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
I hope Russia does put together a concerted effort to reach Mars and establish a human presence there. Their space program may be poor and mothballed by the government, but that isn't going to stop them from dreaming and trying to achieve those dreams.
This is the sort of thing that we need to give NASA a swift kick in the butt. The self proclaimed richest nation in the world can't be bothered to spend money to futher scientific ambition like this, and would rather spend all their resources defending themselves against an enemy that does exist, and it takes a dirt poor, ex-superpower to do anything about it.
Sorry guys, but it looks to me like you're still trying to fight the old fight, and haven't quite realized yet that the world has passed you bye.
This is not a sig.
The Russians? They've got plans for a nuclear power plant on Mars. 10/10 for style, boys. It's refreshing to see a little ambition for once.
Still, there are practical uses. With a reasonable supply of water, a nuclear power plant could be used to create oxygen and hydrogen, both for surviving on and performing experiments, and for fueling any return craft.
Martians concerned over Russian nuke plans (October 5th, 2006)
Rocky Canyon, MARS - Local residents plan to block Russian efforts to build nuclear power plants on Mars. Fearing potential health risks from nuclear accidents and what they claim to be a spotty safety record from Russians, representatives of a coalition of Martian leaders plan to raise awareness of the issues and protect or attempt to block the Russian plans. "Not in my back yard!" claims local long-time resident Marvin the Martian, "We do not want an Earth-shattering kaboom on our planet. We have no demodulator for nuclear waste."
Local retiree, Flash Gordon, points out that other environmentally sound energy alternatives are available like geothermal and solar energy. "I don't understand why we should be the dumping ground for Earth's waste. I'm also concerned about their need to use what little water we have to cool their power plants. It sounds like a bad idea to me."
Russia's Nuclear Energy Ministry plans to send a delegation to the planet in 2010 to hold a series of public hearings and town meetings on the matter. "We hope that once the great people of Mars learn the facts about our advances in safety of nuclear energy, that they will welcome a new cheaper source of energy," informed Dr. Strangelove, interim leader of the earth-based planning and research committee. The spotty record of Terran nuclear safety is well known to Martians, including the well-known 20th century Chernobyl and Three Mile Island accidents and the San Onofre security incident last year.
Total Recall star and former California Govenor Arnold Schwarzenegger is rumored to be an investor in the contruction company contracted by the Russian agency to develop the terra-forming technology required to build the power plant. When asked about his links between his commercial investments and campaign contributions to Russian elected officials, he withheld comment.
Mars and Earth are seperated by millions of miles, both literally and apparently in viewpoints about the nuclear project. We look forward to seeing if they can come closer together on this issue.
The space station was done on a US budget, not a Soviet one. The Russians have always worked with simple equipment where as we take the approach of technology being the answer to all. To be honest, had we really wanted to make it possible for all us to be up there, we would have done simple, repeatable systems.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I have completed my plans to build a Martian crematorium for passed-away nuclear power plant technicians. This first permanent extraterrestrial crematorium will be dedicated to help remember the dedicated scientists, as well as pet cats, dogs and aligators, who could not survive the blistering radiation and isolation of living on Mars. It should be up and running by 2029, provided I find a way to deliver my ready-made building blocks to a construction site 300 million kilometers away from Earth.
my blog
Maybe it's Chernobyl, but somehow I still don't trust Russian nuclear reactor designs.
If you're gonna put a nuclear reactor on Mars, ferchrissake, make it a CANDU. Not only was the CANDU designed in Canada (w00t!), but it's also really, really safe.
Mars Nukem Forever
Arthur C. Clarke thought we'd be to Saturn by now, and we probably would be if we'd kept up what we were doing in the 60's.
If our governments kept everything up at the rate they were in the 60s, humanity would have been replaced by a series of radioactive craters by now.
All things change for a reason.
I'm not certain how much safer they are in the case of a coolant loss (core exposure,) but the pile itself is more resistant to melting into a mass; if anything, individual pellets would melt through their containment and thus reduce the reaction. But still, those pellets are not light, and the accompanying machinery and generators will be very, very heavy. I think RTG's would be a better short-term solution...of course at the expense of irradiating their surroundings.
Actually, part of the point of a pebble-bed reactor is that it can't run away. Pellets expand as temperature increases, moving them outside of the envelope for criticality. The result is a core that automatically balances itself right at the critical threshold, resisting changes in either direction. The number of fuel spheres present (and the shape of the collection) determines the temperature at which the whole thing stabilizes (more material, and it needs to be farther apart - and so hotter - to stabilize). When designed with safety in mind (e.g. with the best possible core arrangement and little enough fuel to stay below problematic temperatures) there's no way for it to have a runaway reaction.
Tapping heat off drops the temperature, cooling the pile, and increasing the reaction rate until temperature stabilizes. Losing coolant causes it to heat and expand, dropping the reaction rate, and letting it stabilize. The only way you'd get an accident happening is by adding more fuel, or breaking up the fuel pebbles and carefully arranging fuel and graphite moderator for a higher reaction rate. Not going to happen by accident.
Re. RTGs, a radiothermal source generally doesn't cause activation of its surroundings. It's neutron radiation that does that; RTGs generally just emit alpha or beta radiation (depending on material used, of course). They're easy to shield, too (against primary radiation; you'll still get gama shining through, and x-rays as secondary radiation produced in the shielding).
A fission reactor, by contrast, produces neutron radiation and makes everything near the unshielded core radioactive.
Sorry, couldn't resist this one. :-)
Because it'll cost more to sustain life on the Moon than Mars due to transporting water
Moderators Moderators do your worst.
After all, I'm an Anonymous Coward
Sure, we could go to Mars. But what will it get you? Mars is a dead planet. There may be enough resources to run a colony. Fine, you have a million or so people living in a dome, breathing recycled air, drinking recycled water, and eating hydroponically grown soyburgers. That's just a drop in the population bucket. And if that's the way you're going to live, why go all the way to Mars to do it? Why not just build your dome here on Earth?
Colonies on multiple worlds is insurance against world-destroying events. A very large asteroid impact could disrupt the crust or kick up enough dust to freeze the oceans over, killing most non-bacterial life on the planet. On the more mundane front, toss a few cobalt bombs around and you can gamma-sterilize all landmasses. It is extremely unlikely for a natural cataclysm to take out multiple colonized worlds at once. It is far more difficult for an artificial cataclysm to be propagated between worlds than to have it occur on one world. This makes colonizing (and ideally terraforming) multiple worlds desirable for the long-term survival of our species.
This doesn't mean we have to devote all possible resources to it; just that it's a good thing to do at some point, and a nice long-term goal to shoot for.
Face it, we are trapped in our own solar system. Pioneer 10 has been travelling for thirty years, and is less than 0.03% of the way to the closest star. It should arrive in a little over 9000 years from now. The only two technologies that can get us away, are hibernation, and multi-generation craft. Are we going to put a couple of hundred people onto one of these spaceships and wait around for 9-10 thousand years to see if they find a habitable planet? No, we're stuck here.
First of all, we'd have picked out destination worlds and verified their ability to support life long before sending colonization craft. The cost of building a big enough telescope is far lower than the cost of building an interstellar colony ship.
Secondly, several approaches to building interstellar craft that don't carry their own power sources with them have been proposed. These would allow interstellar craft to reach their destinations within a human lifetime, if we're in that much of a hurry.
Heck, you can in principle do it with a big enough and efficient enough fusion craft (smallest mass ratio you can do it in is about 100:1, but even 1000:1 could be built, albeit expensively).
Assuming less design optimization or smaller craft gives a longer travel time, but I don't see why this is intrinsically unacceptable. Fully colonizing a world will take a comparable amount of time (generations). Terraforming a world (as is desirable if the world is to support human life indefinitely) will take at least that long.
Interstellar colonization is desirable from a species point of view for two reasons. Firstly, there are some classes of catastrophe that can sterilize entire star systems (nearby supernovae are the most popular so far). Spreading between stars, even slowly, would put colonies out of range of such catastrophes in a time much shorter than their expected interval of occurrence, and so is a suitable long-term safeguard. More importantly, launching an interstellar war is possible, and arguably reasonably practical. Launching a slower-than-light interstellar war without some magical new physics making things a lot cheaper is far less practical. Interstellar colonization would give us very good protection against most conceivable species-destroying catastrophes, either natural or artificial.
Thus, as a long-term goal, I believe colonization both in-system and out-of-system is desirable.
My high school physics teacher told us that the winds and temperature are not such huge factors because the atmosphere is really thin... Of course he was kind of a lunatic, so he/I could be wrong. :-D
"Ask me about Loom"
Wasn't till just before Stalin (when Lenin was alive, but out of service on account of a stroke or two) that it became oppressive.
They were oppressive from day one, maybe two. Lenin and Trotsky ordered to suppress and decimate any opposition they faced. Stalin got to suppress pretty much the opposition he imagined.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
It seems extremely conservative to me that Russia would take 30 years to get to Mars, especially considering their stated plan is to build a reactor - they'll get to Mars faster if the reactor is in fact what gets them to Mars in the first place.
The U.S. has had a working nuclear rocket engine for forty years, according to a PDF on the ROVER/Nerva project off this page. These are relatively simple engines which shoot hydrogen out the back.
Of course the reference to "already built" is bizarre, who cares if it is already built if they are going to take 30 years to do it? No reason to mention that unless maybe they are talking about tested submarine reactors.
Of course the U.S. has a deal according to this March 2003 article to get Russian nuclear rocket fuels for the nuclear rocket program of Project Prometheus through 2009.
This pdf says that using the NERVA rockets of the 1970s we could get to the moon in a day, or to Mars in 4 months. The article by a Los Alamos researcher is interesting as it talks about the social problems versus technical problems. In all it seems that the nuclear rocket costs half as much, is twice as powerful, and is safe (at least from this paper it seems that reactor core products stay in the reactor). Also from about page 21 there is an interesting section on radiation and human exploration.
It talks about using a gas core nuclear rocket (GCNR) in which we are talking about how to shield crew from radiation in flight, not on the ground, but that this will mean we can get to and from Mars in much less than NASA's planned (1998) mission of 3 years. With a specific impulse of over 3000 seconds, a GCNR ship can have a 3 month transit to Mars, 2 months on the planet, and 4 months back - thus reducing psychological stress factors by keeping the mission to 6-7 months' duration.
There is also the physical deterioration from a long flight.. Apparently the current U.S.-Russia program is aiming for even better, perhaps 2 months each way using small reactors for an unlimited fuel supply and three times better propulsion.
More info:
link
link
link
pro-nuclear space space group with more information
What about that entire "attempt no landings there" thing? .. or am I remembering a movie again.
damn.
*honk*
This is my sig. It's prescription, I swear. I need it for reading things... on the other side of things
Vote Arnold Swarzenegger for leader of Mars in 2030!
-]Phreak Out[-
For all those who don't understand the above, Kim Stanley Robinson wrote a book called Red Mars , which is about the colonization of Mars. Even world famous author Arthur C. Clarke says: "The best book on the colonization of mars that has ever been written..." (The quote is on the cover). There are two books that follow up on Red Mars, namely, Blue Mars , and Green Mars.
UMD runs a 250 kW reactor that runs on (what is today considered) nuclear waste.
Very clean, IMPOSSIBLE to produce weapons grade material from it or its fuel, and provides a solution (actually a use) for today's nuclear waste.
http://www.caesar.umd.edu/
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
How the heck do they think they are going to finish by 2030??
I see a few problems:
1. We've never been to mars. Maybe we should walk on the thing before we build a nuke plant. There are more than a few stumbling blocks to sending a human to mars...let's prove we can surmount those before we go build a freaking nuclear plant.
2. How big is this thing going to be? I doubt that we can get the parts there in two seperate flights. (umanned beagle type thing, and manned flight)
You know this thing won't finish on time. They'll forget a screw driver or something and *boom*....the project is behind 7 years.
clifgriffin > blog
I'll believe it when I see it. I'm guess that in 2030 we'll still be trying to figure out what to do with the shuttle, and Russia will still be using the same old Soyuz crafts that their bankrupt nation has used since the late 60's / early 70's.
-Cnik
Criminys, that's a silly idea. Mars? You'd need the mother of all extension cords to get the power back here. Anything that long and thick would be a tremendous trip-hazard anyway. Do you really want to send some poor UFO on a header?
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Why is there this big rush all of a sudden to put people on Mars. I'd love to see it in my lifetime but isn't the moon more realistic? Prove that the technology works and that people don't go stir crazy living under a dome first. If there are problems, rescue could be a few days away instead of months. Higher probability that if something catestrophic does happen, the inhabitants can be rescued.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."