Ring a Bell And I'll Salivate

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Ring a Bell And I'll Salivate

Posted by michael on Friday August 22, 2003 @07:17AM from the i-scream dept.

mosch writes "Humans have been trained to yearn for ice cream in the same way as Pavlov's fabled bell. I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner."

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Vegans by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-22 07:19 · Score: 5, Funny

I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

What about a healthy human male yearning for a nice healthy vegan? ;-D
1. Re:Vegans by bad_fx · 2003-08-22 09:57 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Pfah, as everybody knows those Vegans are way too stringy. And so little meat on their bones... It really takes a master chef to prepare a half decent meal from one of them.
2. Re:Vegans by I(rispee_I(reme · 2003-08-22 11:20 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  I agree completely. Animals are just like black people. It is a little known fact that shaving cream was invented by wolves. I, for one, would like to be the first to welcome our new canine brethren and invite them over for a healthy vegan dinner.
3. Re:Vegans by I(rispee_I(reme · 2003-08-22 11:33 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  For those who have somehow managed to avoid these fools, Vegans are a group of new-age diet gurus who tell everyone who will listen that they are evil for eating meat. While there are many reasons to reduce the amount of meat in your diet, morality is not among them. Also, most "vegans" kill animals passively too. The real vegans who actually believe their own hype all grow their own food and are all rail-thin from malnourishment. If you meet a vibrant, glowing person who tries to sell you on a vegan diet, they're killing animals somewhere.
4. Re:Vegans by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-22 14:36 · Score: 1, Insightful
  
  What FUD. Veganism has nothing at all to do with new-age thought. I am a vegan, and do not believe in any new-age thought. If you think the fact that some new-age people are vegans, and vice versa, means that one is a subset of the other, then I guess carnivores are also new age gurus, by your specious logic.
  Have you ever met any of these 'real vegans' in person? I have, and they are the healthiest people I've ever met. When you say they're rail-thin, I assume you mean they're not the normal fat-ass overweight American, in which case, yes it's true, vegans generally have the weight and figure that people are supposed to have.
5. Re:Vegans by Nagatzhul · 2003-08-23 01:58 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  The only vegan/vegetarian I know who is healthy recently confided in me that she is not really a "full time" vegan. She says she is to stay with her current boy friend, but she eats meat when the cravings get too bad.
  
  Most of the folks I know have serious health problems of some kind. One individual whose immune system is failing was order by his doctor to start eating some kind of meat (beef or chicken). Instead of obeying the doctor's orders, he quit going to the doctor. He is constantly sick and has horrible allergies. He is also developing issues with his nervous system due to lack of B vitamins.
  
  Considering how hard it is to achieve a balanced diet as a vegan/vegetarian and the health issues that constantly come up by not eating a balanced diet, why do people keep beating their head against the wall with it.
  
  --
  "All I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power." - Ashleigh Brilliant
6. Re:Vegans by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-23 08:54 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  Vegans are a group of new-age diet gurus who tell everyone who will listen that they are evil for eating meat.
  
  I know a lot of vegans, have conversations with them regularly, and not a single one has told me that I am evil for eating meat.
  
  If you meet a vibrant, glowing person who tries to sell you on a vegan diet, they're killing animals somewhere.
  
  We're all killing animals somewhere. Most vegans tend to kill fewer animals than others. That's not always true, of course. A person who regularly hunts for food likely kills far fewer animals than the average first-world country buy-it-at-the-store vegan.
7. Re:Vegans by bananahammock · 2003-08-24 18:18 · Score: 1
  
  A guy I used to work with was a vegan. Funny thing was, on weekends he would go rabbit shooting. But of course he wouldn't eat the bunnies he shot. Then again, he would duck off to a vegetarian restaurant and order tofu that tasted like rabbit. We never did get along.
8. Re:Vegans by Tower · 2003-08-25 01:20 · Score: 1
  
  I hope you don't mean this.
  
  --
  "It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
9. Re:Vegans by hesiod · 2003-08-25 02:21 · Score: 1
  
  > the granting of complete and equal rights to all groups, so to vis-a-vis animals
  
  But if we expand those rights onto them, don't we expect them to have responsibilities that come with those rights? Such as to not kill other animals as well? Then we'll have to start throwing those lions & tigers in jail for killing the poor, defenseless gazelles. It'll be the new war on drugs.
  
  Please, don't call me wrong because I eat meat -- a very large number of animals eat meat. Are they wrong for killing? At least I let someone else do the killing, I just take advantage of the results.
10. Re:Vegans by Ominous+Coward · 2003-08-25 03:04 · Score: 1
  
  The only vitamin that one can't get in a vegan diet is vitamin B12. Unless you're completely hardcore vegan, you can get that in supplements, or nutritional yeast.
  
  It's hard to do vegan, but not nearly as impossible as your FUD might suggest. I wouldn't want to be a vegan in the hills of the South, but in a big city, I'm sure you could find many, many vegan restaurants and food stores to help you along.
  
  By the way, I'm a vegetarian, and though I eat eggs and dairy, I do so sparingly, and I'm as healthy as I could possibly be. My only ailments are allergies which have nothing do to with my diet.
  
  --
  Ceci n'est pas une sig.
11. Re:Vegans by Abm0raz · 2003-08-25 06:02 · Score: 1
  
  I tend to a gree with you. I have had lots of interaction with vegans here at Penn State University. I get a much larger 'lecture' from them when I wear my t-shirt that says "I (heart) eating cows." I have only met 2 people that I can stand who are vegans.
  One is a punk-rock friend of mine that has recently become vegan (memorial day to be exact). He's adamant about not eating meat or meat products (including eggs or milk), not cause he cares about the animals (he has leather pants for Christ's sake), but because he wanted to try it. He's lost 25 pounds and says he feels great, but when that 6 month point comes around, the first thing he's gonna do is tear into a steak. That's the first type of Vegan I can get along with.
  The other vegan I know is a cute little woman. She's a near-vegan. She eats eggs once a week because she realizes the need for complete proteins and b-vitamins. When I told her about the Plant that converts turkeys into oil, she got a little conflicted because of the implicattions that they'll have the technology to use that oil to make plastics in the near future. She is the best (IMHO) type of vegan around. When we go out for dinner, I can order a burger, steak, chicken, pork, etc... while she gets her tofu salad and there's no lecturing, preaching, or the like. She has her beliefs (non-religous) for not eating meat and doesn't feel the need to press those on others.
  I've never felt the need to impart any of my vegan combacks on either of my friends cause they never impart their beliefs on me. For those of you that need a few to fend off the more vile type of vegans, try the following:
  State firmly and clearly, "My ancestors didn't scratch, claw, and battle their way to the top of the food chain so that I had to force myself to exist on salad."
  Say, "See these?" point at your canine teeth and finish with, "2 million years of evolution developed these. They're for RIPPING AND TEARING FLESH. Who am I to tell the Earth Mother, Gaia, that she fucked up in her evolutionary plans?"
  Point them to Maddox's Guiltless Grill. This one is chock full of goodies.
  The liver is the largest organ in your body. It's primary digestive function is to secrete bile (whis is stored in the gall bladder until needed) to digest animal fat. Hell, the next largest is the stomach, and stomach acid digests whole proteins mainly. So the 2 largest organs in the digestive system are designed to digest animals. The partial proteins of plant matter are digested later in the small and large intestines by enzymes released by the pancreas. So, we're designed mainly to digest animals and the parts that take care of the plants are the same parts that hold our sh*t until we can find a toilet.
  (my personal favorite...) "Ok, you win, I'll make you a deal. I'll eat vegan and nothing but vegan ... but you gotta indulge me. We are reaching a compromise here. I'm trying you're way, you try mine. As long as I eat vegan, you MUST eat at least 1/8 pound of pig (either ham, bacon, or sausage) and some form of egg derived substance with your breakfast. Lunch involves something made from cow ... at least 1/8th pound ... sometimes 1/4 pound. Dinner is a rotating option of cow, chicken, turkey, pig, (rarely seafood), deer or other wild game, or lamb (rarely). Veal, steak, or hamburger is especially common and encouraged. No tofu is allowed. No 'exotic' veggies, either, like kale, alfalfa, sprouts. Just peas, carrots, celery, corn, and green beans. Salad is the SIDE dish and shall be proportioned as such. Every sandwich/sub/potato/salad you eat mush have cheese and bacon on it. Do we have a deal?" Rattle that off fast (like an announcer stating the 'fine print' on a comercial for a contest) and look real serious. I've had o
  
  --
  Nothing fails quite like prayer.
12. Re:Vegans by Sanga · 2003-08-25 06:10 · Score: 1
  
  So morally the argument may be weak -- that does not prevent you from getting the better aspects of the Vegan diet.
  
  Just one fallacy does not a "fool" make.
  
  BTW I love diary products.
13. Re:Vegans by cookie_cutter · 2003-08-25 13:13 · Score: 1
  
  Vegans are a group of new-age diet gurus who tell everyone who will listen that they are evil for eating meat
  This is as silly as saying all computer scientists are socially inept geeks who tell everyone who will listen that they are stupid for using any Microsoft products.
  Every vegan and vegetarian I've met has considered their diet a personal choice, and not everyone does it for ethical reasons, many do it for health.
  Which brings me to my next point: the myth that vegan/vegetarian diets are inherently unhealthy. Fact of the matter is, it's not overly difficult to eat a healthy diet as a vegan, and even easier to do so as a vegetarian. In fact, there are numerous health benefits, like reduced chances of diabetes and coronary disease. Also, you aren't ingesting all the antibiotics and hormones they pump farm animals full of.
  Is it possible to eat an unhealthy vegan diet? Of course, just as it's possible to eat an unhealthy omnivore diet(as many north americans do).
  Why don't you quit with your FUD, and actually do some research first.
14. Re:Vegans by cookie_cutter · 2003-08-25 13:19 · Score: 1
  
  was order by his doctor to start eating some kind of meat (beef or chicken).
  Unfortunately, many doctors are clueless about things outside there experience. Had the doctor done a bit of research, he would have found easy way's of getting proper nutrition from vegetable sources.
15. Re:Vegans by Nagatzhul · 2003-08-28 04:49 · Score: 1
  
  You can get it.... if you eat like a cow. The trick is that a lot of those vitamins are only available in trace amounts. If you had multiple stomachs and a digestive system designed for plant matter only, you could actually get them. But you don't eat hundreds of pounds a day like a cow does. And your nutritional needs are different from a cow. Which is why you were not designed/evolved as a vegetarian. You can't get the long proteins and you can't get the needed vitamins in sufficient amounts to sustain good health. That isn't FUD, that is just the facts.
  
  --
  "All I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power." - Ashleigh Brilliant
ISR, Bell Rings YOU by Lije+Baley · 2003-08-22 07:24 · Score: 5, Funny

Just how did Pavlov get the bell to crave ice cream??
And you call yourselves editors...

--
Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.
1. Re:ISR, Bell Rings YOU by RobertB-DC · 2003-08-22 11:02 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  Oh, give the editors a break:
  
  Humans have been trained to yearn for ice cream in the same way as Pavlov's fabled bell.
  
  I know that as written, it's saying that Pavlov's bell yearned for ice cream. But I'm sure they meant to say:
  
  Humans have been trained to yearn for ice cream in the same way as for Pavlov's fabled bell.
  
  . . . meaning that humans have been trained to want ice cream as badly as they wanted Pavlov's bell.
  
  After all, what else could they have meant?
  
  --
  Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
I'd rather have a pizza dinner... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-22 07:25 · Score: 1, Funny

make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner

Yuck! Vegans are tough and stringy!
Kill Vegans ... by zangdesign · 2003-08-22 07:31 · Score: 5, Funny

The only good Vegan is a dead Vegan. I remember back in The Big War, this cadre of those blasted three-eyed bastards from Vega was ... what? We got Earthians wantin' to be Vegans?

Great Malda's Ghost! What is this world coming to? Don't those poor misguided Earth children know anything about the Vegans at ... vegetarians?

Vegetarians?! What? What kinda damn philosophical movement names themselves after three-eyed bastards from space? Damn! Damn!

--
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
At what point was this doubted? by ip_vjl · 2003-08-22 07:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

Humans can be trained to crave food in response to abstract prompts just like Pavlov's dogs, reveals new research.

Maybe I'm out of touch - but at what point was it even questioned whether or not conditioned response worked on humans? Sure we've got a lot more going on that might "override" the stimulus, but conditioned response just seems to be one of those very primitive reactions that would still be with us.
1. Re:At what point was this doubted? by cpeterso · 2003-08-22 08:37 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Humans obviously can NOT be conditioned like animals. Humans are not animals; they are the keepers of Our Lord's Earth. Humans were perfectly designed by the Grand Creator Lord Jesus On High. Let us pray that He will deliver us from those heathens in Alabama who are stealing our constitutional rights to free (as in beer) speech and freedom from illegal religions.
  
  --
  cpeterso
2. Re:At what point was this doubted? by JanneM · 2003-08-22 12:15 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Yep. There is one fun exercise a class can do to a teacher if they want:
  
  Decide on some desired behavior (the typical example would be standing by the door, and/or standing with the back towards the class). Then, whenever the teacher does something that is a bit like the desired behavior - moves a step or two towards the door, for example, some people should perk up a little, smile a little more and show a little more interest in what the teacher says. If the teacher moves away from the desired goal, do the opposite - lose concentration, look less happy and so on.
  
  _If_ the class does this unobtrusively, so the teacher does not conciously notice something going on, you are likely to have that teacher finishing up the class standing next to the door, talking over his shoulder.
  
  In social animals, such as humans, the most powerful reinforcer of them all is social interaction. It works far better than any other rewarding stimulus.
  
  --
  Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
3. Re:At what point was this doubted? by RackinFrackin · 2003-08-23 11:54 · Score: 1
  
  I've heard of babies developing conditioned responses. My neighbor would heat up his kid's baby formula in the microwave, which of course would beep when the formula was done. After many beep-food iterations, whenever the kid heard a beep, he expected to be fed.
4. Re:At what point was this doubted? by yerricde · 2003-08-24 05:44 · Score: 1
  
  Humans are not animals
  
  Are they plants?
  
  Yeah, couch potatoes, but the rest?
  
  --
  Will I retire or break 10K?
Consider yourself impressed. by tordia · 2003-08-22 07:37 · Score: 5, Informative
I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.
As a healthy male vegan, can consider yourself impressed.
I generally yearn for food from one of Chicago's many vegan-friendly restaurants than my own concoctions, but that says more about my cooking abilities than anything else.
Some other, more well-known, healthy male vegans:
- Jack LaLanne (Fitness guru) (vegan)
- Dave Scott (five time winner of the Ironman Triathlon) (vegan)
--
Frogs are primitive animals - so the occasional extra toe is not that unusual. But this is very unusual.
1. Re:Consider yourself impressed. by eclectric · 2003-08-22 07:42 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  I also offer http://www.famousveggie.com/peoplenew.cfm for your consideration.
  
  It's rather like claiming a healthy married male is incapable of resisting the temptations of other beautiful women. It sells short our sex.
Yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-22 07:38 · Score: 1, Funny

I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

Easy! Serve said dinner out of a vagina.
1. Re:Yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-22 10:48 · Score: 1, Funny
  
  What's a vagina?
Great ads by jarda · 2003-08-22 07:39 · Score: 3, Interesting

I suspect, if this research wasn't sponsored by some advertisement company. This is great technology for commercials. Everybody needs just a little training, and then, wherever they show appropriate fractal images on TV, all the people will run into the shops for their ice cream, destroying anything in their way
I wonder if this would work for other things than food as well.

--
"Two beers or not two beers. That's the question." -- Shakesbeer
1. Re:Great ads by ElectricMayhem · 2003-08-22 09:27 · Score: 1
  
  I wonder if this would work for other things than food as well.
  
  Have you tried playing Polybius?
  
  =)
  -g
i wonder how much commercials by Unknown+Poltroon · 2003-08-22 07:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

contributes to the obesity problem in america? The constant programming every 5 minutes that food makes you happy? Reminding you to eat ever 5 minutes? How does that affect your brain?

--
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
1. Re:i wonder how much commercials by tsa · 2003-08-22 07:56 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  I was wondering about that too but then for 'new and improved' washing powder. Does anyone even know why your laundry has to be absolutely white? That is another case of programming the minds of innocent potential customers.
  
  --
  -- Cheers!
2. Re:i wonder how much commercials by The+Unabageler · 2003-08-22 08:58 · Score: 1
  
  this post sure does make me hungry...
  
  --
  perl -e '$_="\007/4`\cp%2,".chr(127);s/./"\"\\c$&\""/gees; print'
3. Re:i wonder how much commercials by joelpt · 2003-08-22 09:47 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  The fact that somebody rated the parent post here as "Troll" only seems to reinforce the validity of the poster's observation.
Vegans by sidmystic · 2003-08-22 07:40 · Score: 5, Funny

I can't stand eating vegans ... tend to choke on their self-righteousness.
ah... so it begins... by eclectric · 2003-08-22 07:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

What I've never understood is why non-vegetarians are so damned abrasive towards vegetarians? Granted, there are some of us who are... less than polite when it comes to their views, but that's true of any group. I chock it up to "fear of all that is different."
1. Re:ah... so it begins... by Experiment+626 · 2003-08-22 08:19 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I think part of it is backlash against the militant vegetarians who try to impose their beliefs on others. The non-vegetarians do not want want to hear all about "meat is murder", the conditions in a slaughterhouse, or the plight of the cow they ate for lunch. The vocal minority of vegetarians' self-righteous attitude and proselytizing causes them all to be viewed by suspicion by some people, much as some people react towards Christians.
  Of course, there are other factors as well. In American society, men tend to eat a lot of red meat, whereas salads and vegetables, being more popular among female diets, are sometimes viewed as "chick food". While these are not a universal correlation (men eat some salads, women do eat hamburgers), the topic post's reference to males' dislike for vegan foods clearly plays to this tendency. Deviation from societal norms leads to occasional abrasiveness and ridicule, particularly when it comes to behavior that is deemed unmanly. If I showed up for work on Monday with a pink Hello Kitty t-shirt, the other guys at work would probably tease me.
2. Re:ah... so it begins... by node+3 · 2003-08-22 09:29 · Score: 1
  
  Perhaps you missed the initial salvo that went like this:
  
  I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.
  
  The implication is that only vegan dinners are healthy, and more so, that an omnivorous meal is unhealthy. That's a pretty hefty attack and will naturally bring responses. Imagine if the poster had said, "I won't be impressed until they can make a homosexual male yearn for a nice healthy heterosexual relationship." or "I won't be impressed until they can make a geek yearn for a nice bug-free Microsoft OS."
3. Re:ah... so it begins... by zangdesign · 2003-08-22 09:47 · Score: 1
  
  Most food I eat because I like the flavor and texture, some I eat because it's healthy and tolerable otherwise. But it really gets up my nose when someone preaches about eating vegetarian.
  
  I used to live next door to a vegetarian and I can definitely say that soy milk is NOT a suitable replacement for whole milk, which I thoroughly enjoy.
  
  --
  To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
4. Re:ah... so it begins... by andrewski · 2003-08-22 09:58 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer. If you aren't prepared to kill, butcher, and then prepare your meat you shouldn't be eating it.
  
  I think the vegan diet is alright. If strict attention is paid towards acquiring all the amino acids daily, it can be healthy. If not, hormone imbalance, malnutrition, and many other maladies can be the result.
  
  I personally love meat (had a dry-aged ribeye wrapped in uncured bacon last night) but my bride-to-be eats only fish and other seafood. It's a healthy choice. As far as the manliness factor, who gives a fuck? If you are so concerned about looking manly then grow a handlebar mustache and drive a monster truck, and call everyone else who doesn't a 'faggit'.
5. Re:ah... so it begins... by zangdesign · 2003-08-22 10:41 · Score: 1
  
  That was the brand I tried. Sorry, man, it just does not Taste Right. This woman even tried to explain that it helps if you don't think of it as a milk or a milk replacement, but nope. Just couldn't do it.
  
  I gots ta have ma cheese and meat.
  
  --
  To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
6. Re:ah... so it begins... by JanneM · 2003-08-22 12:26 · Score: 1
  
  Not vegetarians - vegans. And it may (at least here) be more about them firebombing meat trucks, chaining themselves to butcher shops and "liberating" minks (which promptly proceed to kill off the local bird population and die from starvation once winter sets in) than with the actual dietary choices.
  
  To put it in another way, some subset of vegetarians, especially vegans, see their choice as a political one, rather than a personal one. And any political movement, especially when radical and extremist, will get negative reactions from those not buying into their agenda - the vast majority of people, in this case.
  
  --
  Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
7. Re:ah... so it begins... by nelsonal · 2003-08-22 13:48 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I don't think that he means this should be the only way you get your food, but that if asked any meat eater should be prepared to kill their own food at least once. I've butchered a cow I raised from a calf, and well, it really changes the whole eating process. You realize that a living thing had to die so you could eat it. It should make you want to not let that death be wasted, or change your eating habits. It's pretty hypocritical for someone who regularly eats meat from a store, but is unable to look the creature in the eye before killing it for the meat.
  
  --
  Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
8. Re:ah... so it begins... by Arandir · 2003-08-22 17:38 · Score: 1
  
  Because you're always preaching to the rest of us?
  
  I have nothing against vegetarians. I have nothing against meals that lack meat or meat by-products. But I have a distinct disgust at the holier-than-thou attitudes of those who refer to themselves as "vegan".
  
  --
  A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
9. Re:ah... so it begins... by andrewski · 2003-08-22 19:52 · Score: 1
  
  Aye. If you aren't prepared to take the responsibility of killing at some point or another, meat consumption seems hypocritical to me.
10. Re:ah... so it begins... by atcdevil · 2003-08-23 06:17 · Score: 1
  
  If you're saying that's so, it's not. Actually I think the opposite is true. That many meat eaters act exactly with that "holier-than-thou" attitude. It just seems socially acceptable that any vegans are open to unlimited amounts of teasing, and criticism, while even the slight utterance of disagreement on the part of vegans, is considered what you described.
11. Re:ah... so it begins... by atcdevil · 2003-08-23 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  What does that mean? No animal on Earth drinks milk of another species at all, and none even drink milk of their own species past infancy. What makes you think cows milk even needs to be replaced? It should NOT be part of a human diet in the first place. Soy milk is extremely common in China where they also drink cows milk, who said it's intended as a replacement? And my guess is that your "authority" on soy milk is based on one prejudiced sip, that I've seen too many non vegans take, knowing damn well in advance that they'd say it's gross.
12. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-23 09:10 · Score: 1
  
  I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer.
  
  What if the animal whose meat you're eating didn't die?
  
  If you aren't prepared to kill, butcher, and then prepare your meat you shouldn't be eating it.
  
  Why not? If I'm not prepared to deliver a baby, should I not have kids? If I'm not prepared to clean out a septic system should I not take a shit? If there are other people who are willing to do the dirty work, why shouldn't I reap the benefits?
13. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-23 09:12 · Score: 1
  
  It's pretty hypocritical for someone who regularly eats meat from a store, but is unable to look the creature in the eye before killing it for the meat.
  
  It would only be hypocritical if the person professes that it's OK to eat meat. Doing something immoral is not hypocrisy in itself.
14. Re:ah... so it begins... by aXis100 · 2003-08-24 18:19 · Score: 1
  
  I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer.
  
  What about all of those innocent plant, being killed for vegan satisfaction? Plants have feelings too - at least that's what some hippies say. They are certainly alive - but people have no issue ripping their their heads off and maiming them.
  
  I dont see how people can draw a line between plants and animals. Food is food, our body required a balanced diet. We dont eat cats and dogs because they are pets, we dont eat dolphins and monkeys because they have been shown to be intelligent. On the other hand, no-one has shown cows to have any greater consciousness than grass.
  
  PS - I grew up on a farm where we ate our own livestock, and have no issue with where my meat comes from.
15. Re:ah... so it begins... by andrewski · 2003-08-24 18:22 · Score: 1
  
  If I'm not prepared to deliver a baby, should I not have kids?
  
  I wouldn't feel sorry for you, your wife, or your child if you impregnated your wife, went about your business 'Doop-dee doo!', and she went into labor and died on a stuck subway car because you were too busy to read about birthing a child so you could help her out.
  
  If I'm not prepared to clean out a septic system should I not take a shit?
  
  A properly maintained septic system doesn't really go bad. It's your fault for flushing shit that doesn't go down the toilet, and if all the septic repair guys within 100 miles were having christmas dinner, you should at least know where the shutoff valve is or you'll be having shit for your turkey stuffing.
  
  If there are other people who are willing to do the dirty work, why shouldn't I reap the benefits?
  
  I'm all for letting other people do my dirty work, but am also a realist. If you are totally ignorant of how to do anything but swipe your credit card, you get what you deserve.
  
  BE PREPARED
16. Re:ah... so it begins... by Tower · 2003-08-25 01:32 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  >No animal on Earth drinks milk of another species at all, and none even drink milk of their own species past infancy.
  
  No other species wears clothes, cooks/bakes, builds motorized vehicles, reads poetry, plays baseball, or posts on slashdot.
  
  Rice milk and soy milk are like skim milk and powdered milk - if you grew up with them or have been drinking them for a while, they are fine, but they are a major shock to those who haven't had them on a regular basis.
  
  --
  "It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
17. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-25 02:23 · Score: 1
  
  > I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer.
  
  I really don't think that if you can't put a computer together from just copper wire and transistors, you cannot consider yourself a programmer.
  
  Hey, I can't make catsup from raw tomatoes, does that mean I can't eat pizza? Please think a little more next time.
18. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-25 02:29 · Score: 1
  
  > those ALF and PETA people are all a bunch of bitches
  
  What a beautiful way to drive home his point about stupid extremists. He makes a simple, factual statement and you make it extreme. Although, that is the American way, these days (or is it the Hollywood way?). Extreme Football, extreme snowboarding, extreme vegans. Get it?
19. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-25 02:35 · Score: 1
  
  > many meat eaters act exactly with that "holier-than-thou" attitude
  
  I disagree with this completely. I live in a pretty f'ing socially backward area, but if I said to someone "I'm a vegan," (although I am not) I might get a strange look (amused or ignorant, can't be sure), but very few (about the same % as there are rabid vegans, probably) will spout off about the values of red meat. If I say, however, "you're a murderer for eating meat," I'd expect to get my ass kicked. That's just as bad as me saying "You vegans are idiots for not eating meat."
  
  My point is that there are extremists on both sides. There is nothing wrong with being on either "side," but there IS something wrong with being an extremist.
  
  Note: An extremist, to me, is someone trying to impose their extreme thoughts on another. Having extreme ideas is fine, just don't insult me for having my own ideas.
20. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-25 02:38 · Score: 1
  
  > Probably jealousy.
  
  Oh (self-)righteous one, I am jealous of you for depriving yourself of certain types of food. WTF? I laugh at you for it, but I respect your decision to do so. Why is it anyone who chooses to be different calls themselves persecuted when the majority asks them WTF they are doing. It's not because we're jealous, it's because we're confused by you.
21. Re:ah... so it begins... by Khlatu_Barada_Nicto · 2003-08-25 03:16 · Score: 1
  
  I really don't think that you could eat meat and not consider yourself a killer. Ok Ted.
  I'm not a "Killer" because I don't "Kill" things, that's a simple one for first year english students. By your logic I've killed a bunch of people in Iraq by paying my taxes, but I havent. Likewise if I give you $50 to buy a gun and you use it to kill someone else, I haven't killed that guy either.
  If you aren't prepared to kill, butcher, and then prepare your meat you shouldn't be eating it.
  Wow! This is fun! If you aren't prepared to Dig a hole and mine for ore and grow a rubber plant and study physics and study metallurgy and study electrical engineering and study math and learn to weld and learn to make glass and learn to forge iron and learn to operate machine tools and learn to upholster and buy a wicked ass set of tools and learn body work and learn how to paint and do a million other things I've left out, then you shouldn't be driving a car.
  And lets, see, you shouldn't be living in a HOUSE unless you're prepared to.......
22. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-25 09:33 · Score: 1
  
  Oh (self-)righteous one, I am jealous of you for depriving yourself of certain types of food.
  
  Really? I don't deprive myself of any types of food. If you read my comment you would realize I'm not a vegetarian.
23. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-26 00:45 · Score: 1
  
  > If you read my comment you would realize I'm not a vegetarian.
  
  When I said "you," I am using it to mean "a vegetarian." If it's a problem, exchange all ocurrences of "you" with "them."
24. Re:ah... so it begins... by Wvyern · 2003-08-26 04:37 · Score: 1
  
  Deviant males are a "norm" in today's society, in fact, last time I checked most of the males I know wear deviant badges and thrust out their manly chests so that others may see the mark of the deviant behavior displayed in all its glory! Let's all drink beer, eat steak, and loudly proclaim our manly deviance together(except for you females and Vegans)!!!
  
  --
  "Sheep just follow the easiest path and run from scary noises and intimidating creatures." - Me
25. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-26 07:47 · Score: 1
  
  If it's a problem, exchange all ocurrences of "you" with "them."
  
  So how is anyone being (self-)righteous? And who is calling themselves persecuted? I stand by my answer. I think non-vegetarians are abrasive towards vegetarians primarily due to jealousy.
26. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-26 08:23 · Score: 1
  
  > I think non-vegetarians are abrasive towards vegetarians primarily due to jealousy.
  
  How are they jealous? And of what? My point is, that's an entirely ridiculous statement. You are arguing semantics, I'm arguing the point. WHAT IS THERE TO BE JEALOUS ABOUT?
  Definitely not health, as that has more to do with eating responsibly, as opposed to the types of foods you eat (excluding "junk food" of course). Their willpower? If I want willpower, I'll quit smoking. Not to mention the that I think most vegans are vegans because they don't like meat. Fine, if you don't like it, it's not test of willpower to not eat it. If, however, the vegans are telling others not to eat meat because it's murder and they are living in sin by doing it, that is self-righteous. Of course, there's nothing wrong as long as they don't press the issue, but how often does anyone on any side of an argument not push it?
  
  > So how is anyone being (self-)righteous?
  
  By calling attention to themselves as better-than-the-meat-eaters and victims, when they are not.
  
  > who is calling themselves persecuted?
  
  Okay, persecuted isn't necessarily the right word, but you said yourself that non-veg's are abrasive towards veg's, meaning there is supposed animosity there. The Veg's consider themselves victims, i.e., persecuted.
27. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-26 09:43 · Score: 1
  
  How are they jealous? And of what?
  
  As I mentioned in the first post, I think they are jealous of the vegetarians ability to conquer their meat-addiction.
  
  Definitely not health, as that has more to do with eating responsibly, as opposed to the types of foods you eat (excluding "junk food" of course).
  
  Most vegetarians eat much more responsibly than average.
  
  Not to mention the that I think most vegans are vegans because they don't like meat.
  
  Well, first of all I was talking about vegetarians, not vegans. And secondly, most of the vegetarians I know do like meat, or at least they did before they conquered their addiction to it.
  
  If, however, the vegans are telling others not to eat meat because it's murder and they are living in sin by doing it, that is self-righteous.
  
  I know a lot of vegans and vegetarians, and not a single one has ever told me not to eat meat, so that doesn't seem to be the case.
  
  By calling attention to themselves as better-than-the-meat-eaters and victims, when they are not.
  
  Umm, when has that happened? Are you saying that michael is a vegan? He's the one who called attention to the issue.
  
  Okay, persecuted isn't necessarily the right word, but you said yourself that non-veg's are abrasive towards veg's, meaning there is supposed animosity there.
  
  I said? It was eclectric who said it. But more importantly, it's true. Just take a look at the responses to this article.
  
  The Veg's consider themselves victims, i.e., persecuted.
  
  Where are you getting this from?
28. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-27 01:16 · Score: 1
  
  > ability to conquer their meat-addiction.
  
  That's as ludicrous as saying "he starved to death, but he conquered his food-addiction." It's not an addiction, it's FOOD. I'm addicted to cigarettes, I may be addicted to alcohol, but I'm not going to try to break my addiction to air. It's a pretty big step.
  
  > Where are you getting this from?
  
  Personal experience. Much better than statistics, although not nearly as flexible.
29. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-27 03:43 · Score: 1
  
  That's as ludicrous as saying "he starved to death, but he conquered his food-addiction."
  
  Except as vegetarians have proven, meat is not necessary like food is.
  
  Personal experience. Much better than statistics, although not nearly as flexible.
  
  Well my personal experience has shown the opposite.
30. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-27 05:47 · Score: 1
  
  > Except as vegetarians have proven, meat is not necessary like food is.
  
  And with statements like that, you are proving you don't want a discussion, since meat is food.
31. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-27 08:28 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, meat is food. But meat is not necessary, like food is.
32. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-27 09:04 · Score: 1
  
  > Yes, meat is food. But meat is not necessary, like food is.
  
  What you mean to say is "meat is not necessary unlike VEGETABLES are" then. Well, vegetables aren't really necessary either, if you eat meat, take the right supplements... and a boatload of metamucil if you don't want cramps for the rest of your life... but yeah, whatever. I don't think this argument is going anywhere. We'll just have to agree to disagree that you're wrong ;P.
  
  J/K, In the end, it doesn't matter to me if someone is a vegetarian or if they eat meat & vegetables.
33. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-27 11:54 · Score: 1
  
  What you mean to say is "meat is not necessary unlike VEGETABLES are" then. Well, vegetables aren't really necessary either
  
  So obviously that's not what I mean to say. What I mean to say is that meat is not necessary, like food is.
34. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-28 00:34 · Score: 1
  
  > What I mean to say is that meat is not necessary, like food is.
  
  Food is not necessary, unlike food is. Fucking brilliant.
35. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-28 05:03 · Score: 1
  
  No, meat is not necessary, like food is.
36. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-28 06:58 · Score: 1
  
  > No, meat is not necessary, like food is.
  
  Ah, so what you are saying is you refuse to think. I am getting tired of this nonsense. You cannot survive, be healthy and strong without meat, unless you live in an area where certain plants are available, or you take diet supplements.
  
  You will not find a vegan (and it would be difficult to find a vegetarian) bodybuilder who does not take pills/supplements, if they even exist at all.
  
  Ergo, it is an important food group. Humans have been eating meat since before recorded time, and you think you are being clever by saying meat isn't food? Gebus Criminy, man, stop arguing for the sake of arguing. Or at least give me something to argue against. I am trying to make a point, and you keep saying the same thing over and over and over, even though it makes no sense whatsoever, and you haven't given me a shred of evidence to think you are anything but trolling.
  
  Ah... IHBT, IHL. IHBE, thank you.
37. Re:ah... so it begins... by anthony_dipierro · 2003-08-28 08:46 · Score: 1
  
  You cannot survive, be healthy and strong without meat, unless you live in an area where certain plants are available, or you take diet supplements.
  
  So it is possible. You just have to live in an area where certain plants are available, or take diet supplements.
  
  Humans have been eating meat since before recorded time, and you think you are being clever by saying meat isn't food?
  
  I never said meat isn't food. Meat is food. But meat is not necessary, like food is.
38. Re:ah... so it begins... by hesiod · 2003-08-29 01:26 · Score: 1
  
  > Meat is food. But meat is not necessary, like food is.
  
  That sentence makes no sense, but I think I finally grok your meaning.
  
  "Meat is not a necessary food."
  
  I still disagree, as vegetables aren't a necessary food either, but at least that's not blatantly stupid.
+1 Flamebait by FroMan · 2003-08-22 08:02 · Score: 1, Flamebait

I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

Yeah, they can do that. I just requires the removal of most of the brain.

--
Norris/Palin 2012
Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
1. Re:+1 Flamebait by cornjchob · 2003-08-24 23:20 · Score: 1
  
  Don't worry; malnourishment will take care of the lobotomy soon enough
  
  --
  We now have confirmed reports from an informed Orange County minister that Ethel is still an active communist.
vagina dinner? by Anonymous Coward · 2003-08-22 08:28 · Score: 1, Funny

"I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner."
Must be a slow day, I thought he said vagina dinner. I thought it was only the brothers who turn their nose up at good pussy.
OB: Simpsons by immanis · 2003-08-22 09:38 · Score: 2, Funny

Smithers: Shall I send out for some Chinese Sir?
Burns: No, those people are all gristle.

--
best web host ever
Why am I not suprised michael accepted this story? by helix400 · 2003-08-22 10:17 · Score: 2

I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

That would be *very* impressive, seeing how a vegan lifestyle is more of a liberal political statement than a sincere attempt at a healthy balanced lifestyle.

I mean, try and imagine a Carls Jr. commercial for vegans. It begins with some unshaved buff construction worker ordering the new Six Dollar Salad. He salivates as he picks up the 3 lb. vegetable delight complete with peas, broccoli, cauliflower, and various Chinese herbs. After taking a huge bite, he wipes away lots of 0% fat ranch dressing from his chin. The commerical ends with Carls Jr.'s new slogan "If it came from an animal, it doesn't belong in your face."

michael, save your liberal/flamebait articles for http://yro.slashdot.org. You and science mix like oil and water.
Level 5 vegans? by JasonMaggini · 2003-08-22 10:26 · Score: 4, Funny

I always think of the Simpsons:
"I'm a level 5 vegan, I don't eat anything that casts a shadow."
Ahhh, someone who listens to Barenaked Ladies by Josh+Booth · 2003-08-22 10:53 · Score: 1

Brian Wilson
Words and Music by Steven Page
It's a matter of instinct, It's a matter of conditioning,
It's a matter of fact
You can call me Pavlov's dog
Ring a bell and i'll salivate -- how'd you like that
Dr. Landy tell me you're not just a pedagogue
1. Re:Ahhh, someone who listens to Barenaked Ladies by jx100 · 2003-08-22 14:35 · Score: 1
  
  gordon lives!
2. Re:Ahhh, someone who listens to Barenaked Ladies by jargonCCNA · 2003-08-22 21:16 · Score: 1
  
  Gordon? Yeah, King Gordon.
  
  --
  Matthew G P Coe
  http://mgpcoe.blogspot.com/
Re:Training the human mind by RobertB-DC · 2003-08-22 11:09 · Score: 1

It's called torture, and brainwashing. If you've ever seen The Mel Brooks kidnapping flick, where the kid was blindfolded the whole time.

I don't know which Mel Brooks movie you're talking about (I'm not a fan), but check this out from the article:

The volunteers were first trained to hunger for the foods at the sight of the abstract fractal images. This took place while the subjects were inside an MRI scanner, allowing their brain activity to be measured.

I know that they have "open MRI" machines these days (heck, they advertise on the radio here), but wouldn't the traditional MRI scanner be disturbingly similar to being blindfolded and forced to lay perfectly still?

I think a notable proportion of the population would tend to go apes*** in those conditions, even without the brain electrodes, fractal images, and piped-in peanut butter smell.

--
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Prior Art by jayrtfm · 2003-08-22 12:35 · Score: 1

Good Humor Truck
1. Re:Prior Art by fifedrum · 2003-08-25 03:28 · Score: 1
  
  I'm surprised nobody mentioned this before your post. I told my children (3.5 and 1.75 years old) only once what that bell on the truck means and they responded to it approriately thereafter. They were immediately trained to jump up, beg for ice-cream and run to the front door when that bell sounds in the neighborhood. They salivated too.
Re:Training the human mind by jx100 · 2003-08-22 14:28 · Score: 1

It was a mel gibson movie, and it was named "ransom"
Healthy Vegan? by Cyno01 · 2003-08-22 16:04 · Score: 1, Troll

Sorry, that really is an oxymoron. I respect peoples decision not to eat meat, but the people i know who are full vegans just seem kind of sickly. You can't live on multi-vitamins.

--
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Um, but? by Lord+Kano · 2003-08-22 16:09 · Score: 1, Insightful

won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

Isn't this an oxymoron? In the immortal words of Paul Rodriguez "I've never met a vegetarian that looked like he could kick MY ass".

Regerdless of how many times you people say otherwise, it doesn't change the fact that a BALANCED diet that includes some meat and/or animal products is healthier than a purely vegan diet.

LK

--
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
No way. by Patrik_AKA_RedX · 2003-08-23 01:46 · Score: 1

I won't be impressed until they can make a healthy human male yearn for a nice healthy vegan dinner.

Yeah, that would hell of a trick. But I think it would be easier to get everybody pay taxes with a smile.

Beside everybody gets exposed to a unhealty dose of conditioning, they call it education. Everybody gets conditioned, with clothing being the most common. How many people do you know aren't at least unconfortable about being naked among other people? If you give a bit of thought, it's pretty unnatural (mind you I'm talking about the ethical reasons of clothing, not about protection against the enviroment).
There are plenty of other ways we were conditioned when we grew up (religion, laws, good vs bad).
You ought to see their diet! by Nagatzhul · 2003-08-23 02:06 · Score: 2, Interesting

You ought to see all the supplements these guys take! We are talking between 50 to 100 pills a day. All to get the same nutrition set I get from single steak. And, as an example, Jack LaLanne is not a true vegan. He eats fish and eggs as well as consuming supplements made from other animal products.

Just because you process them down and change their appearance, does not change the nature of what they are consuming.

--
"All I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power." - Ashleigh Brilliant
status quo by chocolatetrumpet · 2003-08-23 15:06 · Score: 1

The question is, do you really want to live in an environment without a status quo? Where people are unpatriotic? What of the ills of society?

--
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
1. Re:status quo by hesiod · 2003-08-25 02:42 · Score: 1
  
  > do you really want to live in an environment without a status quo? Where people are unpatriotic? What of the ills of society?
  
  Yes.
  
  If there is no society, there are no societal ills. Granted, I'd probably be one of the first fifty million to die.
2. Re:status quo by Khlatu_Barada_Nicto · 2003-08-25 03:39 · Score: 1
  
  I'd probably be one of the first fifty million to die.
  Funniest of all, the 3000 or so Vegans in that group would mostly be eaten by animals :)
Let's give credit where credit is due by commodoresloat · 2003-08-24 12:10 · Score: 1

Humans were perfectly designed by the Grand Creator Lord Jesus On High
Yeah but He used stolen source code from Osiris.
Ring a bell and I'll salivate by redsilo · 2003-08-24 14:35 · Score: 1

As one who works with animals, I have often wondered that Pavlov was able to get his work published. I have animals that are able to identify the sound of a specific motor vehicle, a screen door, my footsteps in a particular pair of boots and some that even respond to the bathroom light coming on in the middle of the night. The only reason I can figure for his work being published is that, even in his day, urban Russian society was already far-removed from their food supply.
Re:let's try to be open towards veganism :-) by AntiGenX · 2003-08-24 19:15 · Score: 1

Now you know how it feels to be a Republican...
contradiction in terms by SlugLord · 2003-08-24 21:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

"nice healthy vegan dinner"

That's highly unlikely. If we want to make "having the nutrients necessary for good health" a prerequisite to "healthy," then it is nearly impossible to have a "healthy vegan dinner."

This of course assumes we take the optimistic view of the possibility of a "nice vegan dinner."

A nice healthy vegetarian dinner is quite possible, but you will be hard pressed to find anyone who can actually maintain their health (in the sense of not becoming seriously ill) as well as a vegan diet without loading their diet with supplements. To me this seems to demonstrate that a vegan diet is clearly not "natural," as vegans could not exist without modern technology. The logical conclusion, then, is that the vast majority of vegans are hypocrites or fools. The remaining minority are sickly and quite possibly dying of malnutrition
Re:Training the human mind by hesiod · 2003-08-25 02:40 · Score: 1

Mel Gibson, Mel Brooks, same thing... :)
You had the answer, why overrule yourself? by lorcha · 2003-08-25 02:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

How did you get from
Granted, there are some of us who are... less than polite when it comes to their views
to
I chock it up to "fear of all that is different."
?
It's not fear of what is different. It's, as you say, that vegetarians have a tendency to be impolite.
Here's an example. I was sitting at a table at a wedding and one of the people at the table was a vegetarian. The wait staff messed up who had the vegetarian meal and accidentally set down a steak in front of said vegetarian. What do you think she did she do to address the situation? Do you think she politely informed the waiter that she had ordered the vegetarian entree and could he please correct the problem? No, that would be the normal thing to do. Instead, she let out a blood-curdling scream and started shrieking, "Get it away! Get it away!"
Now, is there any point in making a scene like that? If it really distressed her so much to see something that once went "Moo" put in front of her, she could have stood up, walked over to the waiter, and asked him to correct the problem. You want to know why the meat-eating public doesn't want to hear about your vegetarianism? It's experiences like that, coupled with moralistic lectures (we've heard them all before, believe me) that make us uninterested. You want meat-eaters to not be abraisive? Here's a hint: when you go out with us, simply order a meal that doesn't contain meat and keep your fucking lectures to yourself.

--
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Re:Flamebait? by Ominous+Coward · 2003-08-25 03:10 · Score: 1

Chimps, however. Despite their vocal inabilities, they are very smart, and can even be taught rudimentary language. How long until we have chimps replacing humans for basic labor jobs? Then we'll have chimp rights, and then human-chimp equality.

--
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
Vegan girls taste better? by Sr.+Zezinho · 2003-08-25 03:14 · Score: 1

I admit that my population sample isn't large, but I believe that vegan/vegetarian girls taste better, particularly where it matters most.
I have found vegetarians to be sweeter, other girls are more sour.
I have experienced changes in the flavour of girlfriends when they started their eating/smoking habits.
Has anyone found corroborating evidence to support my findings?

--
os trabalhos e os dias: http://zmoreira.net
Eating Veggie at Carl's Jr. by billstewart · 2003-08-26 17:02 · Score: 1

I'm a vegetarian, but not a vegan, so it's a bit easier to find fast food. I don't usually go to the Carl's Jr. near my office, but why I do, it's one of the better fast-food choices. I usually get the potato with various toppings, and I suspect that the vaguely-butter-colored-margarine-substitute-substa nce that comes with the potatoes has few if any components that came from actual cream (:-) (Unfortunately their bacon bits are real, unlike the usual salad-bar crunch soy things.) And their fried zucchini is pretty good. And unlike McDonald's, the french fries don't have beef grease in them.

Besides, this is California - the standard Giant Burrito works perfectly well without meat, (though I tend to get cheese on mine), and it's an adequately balanced protein from the rice and beans, and if you're the boring meat&potatoes eater, you can just as well eat rice&beans and express your machismo by using the good hot sauce (and the less authentic places use Crisco or oil instead of lard.) And next door is the Chinese place, where there's interesting Szechuan food (ok, the one near the office is actually bland greasy Cantonese), and the Thai place if the Chinese isn't spicy enough, and the basic sandwich place has hummous as well as salami.

--

Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Mixing up Vegans and Vegetarians. by billstewart · 2003-08-26 17:39 · Score: 1

First of all, you're not evil for eating meat, you're evil for hurting animals in the process of getting your meat or milk or eggs. Eat all the roadkill you want; we won't condemn you. Just keep your facts straight.
Vegetarians don't eat animals (including fish, chickens, etc.), but some of us eat eggs and milk and others don't. Vegans not only don't eat eggs and milk, usually because you can't get them without killing animals, and in typical agriculture it also involves being mean to them, and they also don't wear leather, except Birkenstocks.*

You can get perfectly adequate nutrition from either kind of diet - there are traditional cultures that have been doing them for thousands of years - but especially if you're a vegan you have to pay attention to what you're eating. The reasons for the stereotype rail-thin malnourished vegans are usually that they're either the type who were picky eaters before they stopped eating even more things, or else they're cluelessly taking a standard American diet and leaving off the meat, dairy products, and eggs, and only cooking the few remaining things they know how to make without bothering to learn anything about nutrition that they weren't mistaught in high school.

As far as the rant about range-fed beef goes, it's certainly better for you than grain-fed beef, which is most the beef you get in the US because it's more tender, and almost all the pork. It can be more or less ecologically destructive than grain-fed beef - in many parts of the world, both of them involve slash-and-burn destruction of forests, but in places with stable grassland ecosystems that aren't overcrowded with cattle or sheep, it can be ok. However, the author also ignores the fact that it takes about ten pounds of grain or soybeans to raise one pound of meat, so substantially less land is required to feed people using grain than processing the grain through cows first, so there's a lot less habitat destruction.

--

Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Title of article from Barenaked Ladies song by SamTheButcher · 2003-08-28 07:01 · Score: 1

News at 11.
Thanks, michael. Seriously! :)
modbomb at will.