Slashdot Mirror
UK to Put Monitors in Every Car?
wackoman2112 writes "The Sun is reporting that the UK government has plans to put a computerised spy in every car. This "spy" will record every single time a motorist goes slightly over the speed limit, into a bus lane, or stops on a yellow line! It will report this information to roadside sensors and you will soon receive a fine in the mail."
A Dutch minister has suggested the idea to install a cruse control (with speed limit) in every car. Aside from this there have been experiments here in the Netherlands with such a cruse control that would limit the speed based on GPS data and a database.
The Sun is a tabloid rag, concerned only with tittle-tattle, gossip, celebrity "revelations" and salacious pictures. It is not a newspaper and I wouldn't ever think of using it as the basis for a sensible discussion on any issue. Someone find a reference to this "story" in a real newspaper and we can talk about it.
Rob.
Given the nature of the paper this story orignated in, I'd say the story should be taken with a grain of salt.
I toggled a toggle and buttoned a button, but when I got done, I was done doin' nothin'.
It's a terrible, terrible newspaper with a reputation for making up half of what they print and not checking the rest.
They also have severe disagreements with the government and are not above lying to score political points.
This might be true, but a second and more reputable source would be better.
Keep in mind that this is a British tabloid that is doing the reporting. The genre is notorious for fluff, demagoguery, and "sports dailies" that are basically half sports, half softcore porn. I'd hope to see something a bit more solid verifying this story before I worried too much about it.
For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
Quoth the article:
The scheme would force car makers to fit the microchip in all new vehicles. Older cars would have them added during an MOT
and
Car registration and MOT details would be carried on every chip, making stolen or uninsured vehicles simpler to trace.
WTF is an 'MOT'?
What happens when you sell a vehicle? What incentive would the lot or private citizen have to ensure that the registration information on the chip is changed?
How about home-brew programmers that either remove all restrictions or change the registration to that of someone else? How about everyone change their on-chip registration to Prince Charles?
Unfortunately, the article doesn't go into any technical details.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
Sorry but the article also appeared in the Sunday Times giving it slightly more credibility :-(
what difference does that make?
they plan to add the chip to cars during their MOT..
There are license plate covers (at least here in the states) you can buy.
Clear to the eye, but the cameras can't get your license #.
Now if they've got a film you can put on your windows to do the same I don't know.
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
i agree that the sun paper is not always reliable but i FIRST read about this in Focus so there is prolly more truth in it than you think ..
..
:(
.. after all the car only does what the driver tells it to
albit the sun has prolly bulled it up a bit
i.e it does not go on to explain how they are going to find out WHO was driving at the time only the vehicle in question
it can be likened to putting a bullet in prison and letting the shooter go free
all in all it is a bad idea
Anyone interested in issues surrounding driving in the UK, esp. the anti car madness which is around at the moment, should have a look at SafeSpeed. Lots of interesting information regarding cameras, police targets, why driving fast isn't necessarily dangerous, etc.
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We've already got this on the way in the USA. OBD-III (on-board diagnostics 3) is a scheme proposed by the EPA and various other government agencies to "protect the environment." Right now, every new car has OBD-II, which constantly monitors your vehicle for emissions compliance. Wonderful, huh? Well OBD-III will incorporate a satellite transmitter in every car...if your car goes out of spec, the government will know who you are...and have the authority to revoke your registration until you get it fixed. They will also have the ability to stop your car from starting, or stop it entirely if you are determined to be a criminal or environmental outlaw. Plans are already afoot to interface the system with "smart signs"...so you could be issued a ticket directly from a "SPEED LIMIT 55" sign...for going 56. The future is here! Limitless revenue for the government!
Hi
1 76-7905 12,00.html
An article in a similar vein, though less inflammatory I would hope (I've not read the one in the sun) appeared in the Sunday Times on the 24th.
There is a link from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,
May need to register if you are outside the UK I'm afraid.
Some have commented that The Sun is not the world's most authoritative journal available in the ok. You're right, it's not.
However, similar articles have been in the broadsheets over here:
The Times
BBC News
The Observer (this one slightly older)
For example just because your plate isn't distinguishable in the image doesn't mean it's indistinguishable when the image has been inversed! Pretty cool stuff. "for some reason" light gray on white is easier to read than black on dark gray. ;)
Since the Sun is always heavy on opinion and light on fact, I looked up the stuff it was talking about.
There is currently an EU wide project looking into Electronic Vehicle Identification. ACPO (the UK's association of chief police officers) is just one of the bodies involved:
"Ministries of Transport of Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Norway and the UK, as well as ACPO (UK), KLPD (Netherlands), RDW (Netherlands), Q-Free (Norway), EFKON (Austria), TNO (Netherlands), ERTICO."
(Hardly a pet project of Blairs then?) I think the report referred to is this one which is part of a requirements gathering exercise, not a policy document. Here's a one of the requirements (Section 5, User Needs):
"The issues of privacy, safety, and security must be clear and understandable if the public are to have any confidence in the system. ("Big Brother" concerns by invasion of privacy by authorities)"
I don't think much of Blair and the lickspittles he has running the country just now, but the Sun is just about the bottom of the journalistic barrel, you might want to read the report and judge for yourself.
Hahaha for those of you who don't live in the UK - "The Sun" newspaper is a fithy rag of a tabloid.
They frequently lie and make up stupid stories.
Don't believe a word of it.
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It has always struck me as strange that:
The speed limit here (in Toronto, Canada) is 100 KPH.
All cars have speedometers that go to 180 KPH and higher.
People actually drive 120 KPH on the highway
-and-
The speed limit is an "absolute". If you're over, you are breaking the law.
Not only should there be sensors, but cars should have governors. The law *is* the law. If you don't like the law, vote and have your representative *change* the law.
However, if I get pulled over for driving 120 KPH, and all other highway traffic was doing the same speed, I feel that I should be able to forward the ticket to the automobile manufacturer for criminal facilitation. Because I can't, I feel that there is a de-facto conspiracy for raising taxes. (Note: In my entire driving "career" I have had only one speeding ticking, and no other infractions. I was not paying close attention to my speed, the highway was empty, and I was ticketed for 120KPH. No, the car did not have a cruise control, or I would have used it).
So, I not only want *detectors*, I want *governors*. Since we have the means, why should I pay tickets? The stated reason is safety (or gridlock prevention, or somesuch public good), and I presume that government officials aren't lying.
Ratboy
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
I have long wondered, here in the USA, what would happen if speeding laws were actually thoroughly enforced. The politicians would not want that. People will take a certain amount of onerous tax like speeding fines, but no more, and the politicians and police are pretty good at judging the limit, to milk as many golden eggs as possible without killing the goose that lays them. I'd love to see real enforcement; so many people would clog the court system, and so many suspended licenses would cause a revolt in traffic laws. Politicians know that. I imagine any policeman who actually wrote speeding tickets all day long, as any of them could, would quickly learn a lesson from his boss.
Infuriate left and right
ugh...
most of those havent bee around since 20's vintage cars...
... hi bingo
For anyone who doesn't know, The Sun's quality of journalism ranks at the heady heights found slighty above that of The National Enquirer in the USA.
So it's probably only a plan to monitor CO2 emmisions or something like that...
If it was true, there are, of course, some blatantly obvious questions:
- How do they know exactly WHO was driving at the time of the incident? (and how could they prove it?)
- How would it know the bounds of a bus lane (expensive infrastructure change to put any technology in the bus lanes)?
- If they're worried about speeding, why not regulate the vehicle to the posted speed limit?
- Wouldn't that be discriminatory? Because people bringing their vehicles from abroad wouldn't have those sensors?
EOM
"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him how to fish and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day."
This sig is in Spanish when you're not looking....
I have a friend that is finishing up his law enforcement degree, and I have family that are police officers.
:P
You know what? They don't want to have to work any harder than they have to, just like the rest of us, and they certainly don't like to 'work in vain'. That is, give a citation, or make an arrest, just to see it not hold up in court because they had some detail out of line.
How would you like spending weeks shoring up and securing a server, only to see a hacker get in because you overlooked a minor, but very obvious detail?
A cop giving you a citation for 1 mile over would be doing more or less that. It's wasting their time and yours. I've been told time and again that 'quotas don't exist', but raises and promotions are based on busts and citations. Sure, there may not be a quota, but you'd best believe there is motivation to place as many arrests and citations as possible, but you also want them to stand up in court if it ever goes there.
Okay, enough rambling.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Just to bring it to peoples' attention, something in excess of 3,000 people are KILLED every year by cars and trucks in the UK... and yet the UK is considered to have a "good" road safety record. That figure is in the region of a hundred times worse per passenger mile than the rail or bus system, the equivalent of a fully-loaded 767 going down every single month.
/.-friendly note, this type of infrastructure is PERFECT to pave the way for robot-driven self-navigating cars and autonomous road vehicles.
Hence, I'm in favour of virtually ANY regulation of motorists. Nobody has a god-given right to carry themselves about in two tons of steel - especially in a small and crowded country like the UK with an adequate public transport infrastructure.
As to "driving at 35 when the limit is 30"... in any case, either of those speeds is too fast on urban UK roads. We have a much higher level of pedestrian (and cyclist) activity than the US, especially in towns. There's also a massive problem with illegaly-owned, uninsured cars and people driving them without the proper license.
Anyways, to finish on a more
However, the same story was in The Sunday Times.
Every driver saftey course I have taken has pointed out the safest place to be is behind the drunk driver. Sure you can pass him and go on your merry way, but what happens if you get held up by a red light or traffic? Guess who is behind you and may not stop?
Not that I agree with it, but in Japan their cars make a beeping or dinging noise if you exceed the maximum speed of the highways -- it lets you pass or go fast for a while for safety but annoys the driver enough to slow down.
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If there were to be *any* speed enforcement, I think that this is the best way.
As for "tell the car not to exceed 100kph or whatever, and a simple rev-limiter/electronic throttle would maintain the speed", almost all busses have what they call a governor that if you exceed 65mph, the gas petal slowly puts pressure back up onto the foot until the bus is under 65mph again. This allows for enough time to pass but does not let one speed continuously. If you have a very strong foot you could, however, still potentially speed.
Lastly, as for "I was in a car once where the computer malfunctioned and the fuel-injector was locked full-on. This is equivalent to flooring the accelerator." -- I'm curious as how this happened. I'm not arguing, but what happened from a technical standpoint (this is slashdot afterall)? Basically in most cars the gas pedal is connected to the throttle body which regulates air intake and also has a "TPS" (Throttle position sensor) which sends information to the computer about where the gas petal is and that combined with the mass air flow sensor, the O2 sensor and the knock sensor determine the pulse width of the injectors and thus the gas inflow.
Let's say that something goes haywire and the injectors get stuck full-on. You let go of the gas and the trottle body will close (since it is mechanical) cutting off air to the engine causing it to get flooded for lack of air and stall -- not rev uncontrollably. There is a circumstance, however, where it will rev uncontrollably and that is when the cable to the throttle body gets stuck or the intake manifold cracks when the TPS sensor is fubar'ed. In both cases it is mechanical failure and not electircal and can be solved by turning off the ignition or putting the car in neutral. .
It can when the yellow length is deliberately shortened to induce violations. The real solution is to increase the yellow length, assuming the goal is to prevent accidents and not generate revenue.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
The Sun newspaper is notorious for printing stories that have little or no basis in truth. It's also written in a style geared towards readers with a mental age of 12.
Err, you do realise that the Sun is one of the UK's more disreputable tabloids. Its not as bad as, for instance, quoting the National Enquirer on the western side of the pond, but almost...
Al.The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
Actually, all you have to do is tap your breaks. In most cases, people follow too closely, so they have to break when they see your lights.
m l for more information.
By tapping the breaks and then moving on, you can cause a "traffic wave" of stopped traffic that can last for quite some time.
Visit http://www.amasci.com/amateur/traffic/traffic1.ht
He says at one point: When traffic is heavy and unstable, slight braking by a single driver can cause the traffic to freeze into a gigantic crystal. Like Kurt Vonnegut's end of the world story CAT'S CRADLE it's the "Ice Nine" of the highways.
While i don't have a hard time imagining that something like this is coming in the near future, let us consider the source, the Sun is not exactly the most reputable news source, more likely it hangs out somewhere near the bottom end of the reputability scale. Why not post some stuff from the weekly world news while we are at it? They had some great articles on UFO technology last week.
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
Next time you see someone swerving all over the road, dial 911 and report the SOB. The State Police or Highway Partrol are usually good about checking into these sort of situations. You could have possibly prevented that five car pileup. My best bud is a State Trooper and he gets these types of calls regularly.
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If you want a version that's not full of sensationalist waffle you can find another article at the good old BBC.
The Sun newspaper? Ha! What will make the Slashdot headlines next? "London Bus Found in Iceberg" - Daily Sport, springs to mind. The Sun is about as reliable as a clockwork orange, and about as red-top tabliod style sensationalist as you get, to boot.
OK, here's something even more stupid:
Suppose you have nine fishermen who each catch 100 fish per day. The average catch is, of course, 100.
Then add a particularly bad fisherman, who catches 0 fish per day. The average of all ten fishermen is 90.
Nine out of ten are above average, catching 100 fish. One is below average.
For extra points, why do the best tennis players have more than the average number of legs?
For American readers, don't take anything that appears in The Sun too seriously. It's a bit Weekly World Newsish targeted at the absolute lowest mental ability level. The people that read The Sun are the sort that would be outraged at a "magic gizmo" that fined them every time they went over the speed limit. It will never happen.
Parse error. That's an interesting use of the word average. If you are an (exactly) average driver, exactly half of the people drive worse than you.
;-)
Nope, you have defined a median drived, not an average driver!
I guess I'm being a smarterer-ass!
Paul B.