Slashdot Mirror
UK to Put Monitors in Every Car?
wackoman2112 writes "The Sun is reporting that the UK government has plans to put a computerised spy in every car. This "spy" will record every single time a motorist goes slightly over the speed limit, into a bus lane, or stops on a yellow line! It will report this information to roadside sensors and you will soon receive a fine in the mail."
It seems to me that people *need* a certain amount of flexibility in the law.. Something this rigid is bound to fail...it simply goes too far against human nature.
Do you have any fucking idea what "The Sun" is?
Implied: why bother linking to any of their crap?
Nobody has a right to drive a car over the speed limit, or to shoot a red light: provided suitable privacy protections are put in place, what exactly is wrong with this proposal?
No way... Are people's liberties going to be trampled that bad? Would we have to explain every single infraction? "The truck was on my arse so I had to speed up" or "I swerved into the bus lane to miss the dog". The possibilities are endless. And that's just for having legitimate excuses for every time you "break the law". What's scarier is that this is even a possibility. This just paves the way to have video cameras mounted in every car "to ensure your personal safety" or whatever. Kinda frightening if you ask me.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
Cool! All you need to do is swipe a sensor from the side of the road, reverse engineer the signals in your garage, and sniff your neighbor's/enemies' signature, and you can bankrupt them with traffic tickets!
There's a reason human beings do this in the US- one because it's always open to interpretation, and two- we have to have a job like traffic cop for the jerks in our society.
Overreaction, as usual, by the Sun. I'm not even going to finish reading this diatribe, I don't buy it, not even for the UK. All of this is easier accomplished by roadside cameras, and has the same basic flaw - it wont hold up in court.
At any rate, you have the right to a day in court, and to face your accuser. Unless this tattler box can show up to testify against you, your case will be thrown out.
So once again some loudmouth says something stupid or sarcastic, and the Sun jumps all over it like its the next big story. Those guys are almost as bad as slashdot when it comes to fact checking.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
... that this spy cam will only be used for monitoring speed limit, & not for some nefarious motive? The opportunities are endless, if such a public spy-cam system is compromised.
Here's a wacky idea -- how about you stop burning red lights?
Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me
It would take approximately 2 hours after this passes for an entrapenuer to board and airplane and set up shop in Mexico.
This shop would produce circumvention kits, which would be banned from import, yet be strangely available via flea markets, and some "grey-area" mail order catalogs.
It would eventually require the continual inspection of automobiles to verify that the devices haven't been circumvented. And in the US, a car has become so much part of the identity of "being American", that people would consider even inspecting the system an attack on their civil liberties.
But then again, should the US Gov. indicate that it is necessary because suspected terrorists could be using vechiles (aka cars) to plan their next grocery store outing, I'd fully expect it to pass with full approval.
Cynical? No! Not me! hahahahaha....
I hate automatic radars as much as the next fast driver but I certainly back red light/photo radar camera completely. Hey, they should be at every crossroad. And don't tell me that the traffic light turning yellow and then red doesn't give you enough time to break. That means that you were definitely going too fast to go safely through that crossroad. Let me remind you that a green light at a crossroad doesn't mean that you have to speed up to catch it; it means you have to be ready to slow down and stop if it turns yellow.
It's probably because of irreponsible fast drivers like you that the rather-responsible fast drivers like me and others are being prosecuted by automatic speed radars and stupid regulations everywhere.
Also, I often take my fas^Ht ass out of my sport car and become a pedestrian. And I enjoy biking too. So do the kids and other pedestrians in the neighboorhood. Hell, I am against death penalty, but I am not sure what I'll think if one of us get run over because somebody irresponsible ran a red light.
I'm English. Here's how it works:
1. Junior minister "leaks" proposal to, for example, tattoo barcodes on the heads of all babies at birth.
2. Liberal press goes hysterical.
3. Senior Minister / Prime Minister denies all.
4. Liberal Press claims victory.
5. Meanwhile, government slips in bill to, for example, tattoo barcodes on some babies' heads.
6. GOTO 1
evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
On Board Diagnostics in the long hand. This is something that is required in every single new car sold in California. This mandate was set by CARB (California Air Resource Board) who are non-elected officials. They're the same ones who jack up our gas prices by requiring funny gas that "suppossedly" burns cleaner. Currently OBD is at level II. It monitors certain pieces of equipment on your car and when they go out of range you get a little flashing orange light on your dash that says "Check Engine." In essense, every piece of equipment that it checks is considered part of your smog system on the car (even things like axels) and if you are a car-modder it becomes increasingly difficult to bring aftermarket parts into the mix as the smallest detail can put the whole OBD II system out of whack. CARB has been trying to push OBD III through the system for years. OBD III like OBD II will monitor your car's smog systems, but it will also monitor speed and location. It will include a transmitter that sends this data to a central processing center. If anything goes out of whack you not only get the flashing light, you get a letter in the mail (probably from the DMV). I'm sure speeding will garner you a ticket, not to mention that every time you're in your car the government will be tracking you (an end to privacy). It's time to wake up. Plans are being developed to begin taxing our car mileage and our vehicle emissions. There have even been ideas bantered around that would restrict how far you can live from your place of work.
Let's start by putting one in every car driven my a Government minister, Member of Parliament and policeman, and by their families. If that works, we'll extend it to media people and sports stars.
If they approve after that, we can extend it to the peons.
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
The law allows you to exceed the speed limit in exigent circumstances or to avoid an accident. How do you propose to have the governors detect that situation and allow speed over the limit?
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
Running red lights is one of the few traffic laws I feel should be fully enforced to the letter. Going 10MPH over an unreasonably low limit won't kill someone; running a red light will.
Of course, red lights should be consistent. I've seen areas where the yellow light lasts less time than others. If you're unaware of how long the light will be yellow, you might inadvertantly enter the intersection right after it turns red, which can be construed as a violation.
Yellow lights should be required by law to all last the same amount of time.
Seriously! If they are going to ticket everyone doing 5 over, why not the people traveling at half the limit in the middle lane?
They could tell that it isn't traffic by looking at the cars around them and checking their speed. If they (the other cars) are going alot faster, ticket the person.
Because removing the faster drivers (insanely and otherwise) does little when you still have the insanely slow drivers.
GPS fears are paranoia. If you're really afraid that the government is out to get you, you'd better avoid cell-phones entirely. You're walking around with a fairly powerful radio transmitter. There are companies which sell software that triangulate the position of a cell-phone based on the surrounding cell towers. GPS doesn't add any new capability in terms of tracking that they didn't have before.
The laws need to be REPEALED. 'Flexible' laws are laws that are flexibly enforced. Flexible enforcement is another term for persecution.
You pass a lot of laws and then you enforce those laws against "them". "They" are whatever group of people needs to be controlled, minimalized, or put down. In the USA, some of these groups are blacks, homosexuals, and conservative Republicans.
The correct answer is to repeal the laws and replace them with "guidelines". If most traffic laws were repealed, would you start intentionally hitting other cars or pedestrians? I wouldn't.
If my car told someone I was bad at keeping within the "guidelines" and I got a letter saying "Please do a better job!", would that be a threat? No.
Freedom is the only correct answer to most of these questions.
If it showed your exact speed while driving, the needle would jump around much quicker....if you have GPS that can calculate speed, check it against your speedometer and you will see what I mean.
Wait, lemme get this straight: you saw the speed jumping up and down on the GPS display, and you thought the SPEEDO was wrong? Did you feel the car jerking back and forth at the time? Or could you not tell because you were so high on crack?
You got it backwards: if you want your ground speed from your GPS, you need to average the GPS readings over at least several seconds.
What's your damage, Heather?
This is not the first time I've seen this proposal and this has very little to do with getting terrorists or criminals.
As a UK motorist I've watched the plague of speed cameras spring to life all over the place. Off course not in front of schools or in areas where there is a high accident rate. But in places where there is a high volume of traffic where the speed limit doesn't reflect the conditions of the road.
(Namely where people have tendancy to drift above 30mph on long dual carriage way stretch).
There is now twice as many traffic wardens patrolling my streets as there are policemen. Watching the traffic wardens they each have there regular spots that they like to check, usually a quiet lane with a faded double yellow line, where common scenes tells the driver parking their car there will not obstruct anything. Within 5 minutes of parking there the car will be clamped or taken away.
At the sametime the places where it is critical to the road clear to let the traffic are not patrolled.
These measures introduced by the goverment are nothing short of being a cash cow.
I pay about 150 in road tax and 90% of the money I spend on fuel is tax. At the sametime the rail infrastructure is crumbling, the public transport system is nothing but shocking. The roads are badly mantained and any plans for improvement are tied down in burcratic red tape.
Also the real criminal element comes from car thieves or joyriders. And usually all they get a slap on the wrist because they are under 16 and can't be punished by judicail system.
Now I would describe myself as an average driver. I occationly let the speed counter slip above the speed limit. I have sometimes not got my road tax within the deadline. There are the human occational mistakes.
Now my goverment want to install their personal spy into my car. Off course this is the same goverment who purposed that the food-standard agency should have access to all my communications, details, email and web habits. This is nothing to do with safety. This is everything to do with raising money for an ever more brueacratic system that fails to deliver.
This is also about intruding on my freedom of movement and stamping upon my honour as law abiding citizen.
Well if they introduce such devices I will be hacking these devcies and I will break them and bend them to my will. I will also gladly goto jail over it because this to me this is type of thing that has to be done to protect my freedom.
You're new over here aren't you.
There's only one thing that I like about that paper... well 2 things actually... and the authenticity of those is dubious...
You fool! You've given cheese to a lactose intolerant volcano god! Do you know what that means?
the time lag between this orwellian nightmare being deployed and the existence of blackmarket 'blinding' modifications that sever the spybot's connections to its sensors in an undetectable (to the spybot) way will be what? a week? a month?
In the UK the current government propaganda is that speeding is a contributing factor in one third of all accidents which other than the fact that speed is a contributing factor in all accidents is patently bullshit.
Even the police recognise that speeding contributes to a tiny fraction, some 7% of accidents, the overwhelming factors being bad driving; Poor observation, poor judgement, thoughtlessness and inattention.
http://www.ringroad.org.uk/one_third.htm
Why is speeding demonised in this way? It's easy and politicians are lazy. Simple to measure and it allows the automated collection of millions of pounds of fines every year.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Well OBD-III will incorporate a satellite transmitter in every car...if your car goes out of spec, the government will know who you are...and have the authority to revoke your registration until you get it fixed.
If there are United States citizens actually advocating a system like this, then they need to step aside, take a deep breath, and study the history of the USA and a bit of literature to put their zealotry into perspective. People who want systems like this are the real criminals towards humanity. While they are non-violent, their subtle and back-door methods make the "terrorists" look like kittens by comparison.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
You mention finishing the road system because it's a "shambles." Are you saying that'll make it safer? You mention special testing and regulation systems for heavy vehicles. (I don't understand what "compulsory" school buses would accomplish, or even what it really means.) You propose toll roads to address funding problems. Are toll roads safer? You'd like limits on diesel engines, and I can't help but agree -- London in July and August, phew. But that's more of an environmentalist suggestion, not a suggestion for the road system per se.
What does all this have to do with the original post's reasons for supporting rigid laws for motorists? Wasn't there something about the high rate of mortality being comparable to 747s crashing with alarming regularity?
I'm a (fairly) responsible, fully paid up and accountable motorist. I'm not your problem NOW, and I won't be in the future whether there's a nanny-chip or not.
People like that never hit pedestrians, then, or collide with other cars? I fit the same categories, but I was almost side swiped twice this morning during my 4-minute commute by people who don't understand the right of way at a four-way stop. Or had you considered that other people can hit you, too?
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Every advanced driving course you can go on will teach you about appropriate use of speed. If I'm overtaking a slower moving vehicle on a single carriageway road the safest thing for me to do is overtake as quickly as possible, speedlimit be damned. They call it "time exposed to danger" for a reason. In your ideal little world I would have to stick to the letter of the speed limit, which would increase the danger to me, the vehicle I'm overtaking and other road users.
Do you honestly believe that people fixating on the precise speed they are doing, staring at their speedometers, at least when they aren't looking out for the next speed camera, are driving safely? I've given up, now I drive to a speed reasonable for the road conditions, my vehicles condition and capabilities, and my level of alertness. Sometimes that means I'm over the limit, sometimes I'm under. I spend my time looking out of the window where I'm going, or in my mirrors, where my eyes should be, not fixed to the speedo. The only times I actually look at the speedo is when there is a speed camera. Now, ask yourself again, would you rather be on a road where everyone is spending more time looking at their speedos than the road ahead, or one where everyone was paying attention to their driving? We seem to be heading rapidly towards a society where the latter is in prevelance.
What the government should be going on about is increasing driver training. If you really want to reduce accidents on the roads every driver should have to take a practical test every 5 years (say). By this I do not mean a little 20 minute drive, I mean a really good, in depth examination of your driving skills. If you fail then you have to go on a course of some kind to sort things out, you have say 6 months to complete this and take the test again (perhaps an abbreviated one).
You can pick up bad driving habits even without realising it. Take me, I considered myself a good driver, I've been on a number of driving courses (off road, rallying, track sessions, skid pans), yet I went out on a "Performance Road Car" course and got picked up for a number of bad habits. None serious, but enough to make me stop and re-evaluate my driving style again. Look at what real "Advanced Drivers" (see http://www.iam.org.uk/) go through, and you will realise that these guys are an order of magnitude better drivers than most people on the roads. I'd rather be in a car with one of these guys at 120MPH than most people at 60MPH.
None of this is rocket science, none of it is surely beyond the whit of anyone of average intelligence, yet the Government hasn't ever made even a single move in this direction. The reasons for this are plain, to do the above, whilst very clearly achieving their stated objective of improving road safety, does nothing to line their own pockets. So instead they focus on the mantra of speed, because this means they can tax^H^H^H fine motorists easily and cheaply. That this has been shown to have very little effect on accident rates, and indeed some speed cameras INCREASE the local accident rate, is brushed off. Actually genuinely improving road safety in any reasonable manner would actually cost them money, so they aren't interested.
The same is true when it comes to
Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly.
> In the event that your accelerator sticks and you can't unstick it. Shift to neutral and let the engine blow.
It's better to step on the brake and turn off the ignition switch. Unless your brakes are in bad shape they'll be able to slow the car significantly even with the accelerator all the way down, and switching off the key will stop the engine dead.
Virg
Hold on, wasn't that the very point I was making, that the law takes no account of the capabilities of the individual vehicles? I also should have said the individual abilities of drivers, I kind of said that in my bit about the IAM. Every day I see bad driving on UK roads, no indicators, pulling out at the last minute, lane hoggers, people just now paying attention, yet in the eyes of the law makers you are only a danger if you are speeding! One of the other posts makes reference to a site laying out the reasons why speed is far from the entire story. The fact is motorists are an easy revenue stream for this government, and it's time we all stood up for ourselves. If I was being especially cynical I'd say the government doesn't want to genuinely improve the quality of driving as then they wouldn't have the accident statistics to justify their jihad on speed and its nice little revenue stream.
Stealing a rhinoceros should not be attempted lightly.