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GeForce FX Architecture Explained

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the kicking-the-tires dept.

Brian writes "3DCenter has published one of the most in-depth articles on the internals of a 3D graphics chip (the NV30/GeForce FX in this case) that I've ever seen. The author has based his results on a patent NVIDIA filed last year and he has turned up some very interesting relevations regarding the GeForce FX that go a long way to explain why its performance is so different from the recent Radeons. Apparently, optimal shader code for the NV30 is substantially different from what is generated by the standard DX9 HLSL compiler. A new compiler may help to some extent, but other performance issues will likely need to be resolved by NVIDIA in the driver itself."

35 of 185 comments (clear)

  1. Say what by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
    performance is so different from

    Is that the politically correct way of saying "performance sucks"?

    1. Re:Say what by cbreaker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      haha yea I guess so. It'll be awhile before it's considered "okay" for any sort of media to say that an nVidia board has sucky performance.

      It keeps getting excused away by "archetecture changes" or "early driver issues" or "the full moon."

      Go go ATI! You brought competition back to the consumer 3D board scene, thank you!

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
    2. Re:Say what by robbyjo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Know that there are many ways to do one thing and there are pros and contras in each of them. In this case, it seems that NVidia's is not chosen and the way DX9 handles things undermines NVidia's method. It's not necessarily because NVidia sucks. Remember that there are politic struggles among Microsoft, NVidia, and ATI during the inception of DX9? I think NVidia now falls victim of it.

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      Error 500: Internal sig error
    3. Re:Say what by dieman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree, this sounds like a big ati vs nvidia brewhaha with microsoft choosing who they want by getting both of them to get the crap 'in silicon' and then choosing which standard to use.

      It sounds like a monopolist helping out whoever they want to and then making the 'other guys' get screwed. Suck.

      --
      -- dieman - Scott Dier
    4. Re:Say what by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The fun thing about HL-2 is it'll likely be the first game where you WON'T have to install a patch or updated Catalyst driver to actually play it with your ATI. WOOT. Go driver development...

    5. Re:Say what by jjeffries · · Score: 5, Funny
      > Know that there are many ways to do one thing and there are pros and contras in each of them.

      Lucky for me, I have 100 lives!
      Up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right-B-A-select(I have a brother)-start

    6. Re:Say what by afidel · · Score: 3, Informative

      Basically it comes down to MS partnered with Nvidia for DX8 and XBox-1, Nvidia asked MS to use some KY so MS chose ATI for DX9 and XBox-2.

      p.s.
      If you don't get this, MS was losing money on the XBox for a long time, some analysts say they still are, to minimize those losses they asked Nvidia to take a hit on the contract terms for the XBox hardware agreement, Nvidia being a relitivly small company said no thanks and that effectivly ended their relationship for now.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    7. Re:Say what by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, it makes sense, when you consider the following facts:

      - NVidia makes drivers for linux, and they don't suck
      - NVidia works hard on making sure their cards support OpenGL, which is the only means through which linux can really have 3D, AND it's the only 3D alternative to DirectX
      - John Carmack (and the rest of id) develops some of the best games in the industry, and he develops using OGL, as well as for multiple platforms
      - ATI has traditionally been a very compliant OEM-type company that loves to bundle it's stuff with anything it can to make a buck. ... and I'm sure there are some other things in there too, such as NVidia buying out 3dlabs, which made voodoo cards, which resulted in the adoption of Glide - the 3d structure that caused DX to not be adopted during the early stages.

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      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    8. Re:Say what by kubrick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Competition here being determined by choosing features to mesh best with whatever Microsoft specifies?

      Yeah, right.

      (Puts on tinfoil hat) My theory is that MS was annoyed with NVidia after the negotiations over XBox v2 broke down... so they communicated a little better with ATI than NVidia over DX9.

      --
      deus does not exist but if he does
    9. Re:Say what by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No need for the tinfoil hat.

      The most complex part of a DX8 or DX9 chip is the Pixel Shader, so I'll concentrate on it. Nvidia spearheaded the development of PS1.1 for DX8.

      Then ATI stole the show with PS1.4 (DX8.1), which is much closer to PS2.0 than PS1.1. At this point, ATI got Microsoft's ear -- ATI was ahead of Nvidia in implementing programmable shaders in graphics hardware.

      So Microsoft had good reason to pay attention to ATI's ideas of DX9 (including how the HLSL should look like and what kind of assembly it should output), long before any Xbox 1 money issues with Nvidia, long before choosing the designer for Xbox 2 graphics/chipset.

      I guess ;-)

    10. Re:Say what by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um... Nvidia didn't buy out 3dlabs. Creative bought out 3dlabs. I think you mean Nvidia bought out 3dfx. 3dfx made voodoo and glide.

      GO VOODOO and GLIDE.

      Creative was suppose to help 3dlabs pump out consumer level cards yet I haven't seen them at the retail store.

    11. Re:Say what by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ATI also brings a new level to "Abandoning support for hardware as soon as we think we can get away with it". I've had one video card and one tv tuner from ATI, each of which I bought right around the introduction of a new Windows version. In both cases, ATI dropped support for the card shortly after. In the case of the video card, they never did release WDM drivers. In the case of the tuner, they released only a version or two that "kind of" worked under 2000 pro and XP, then decided the remaining major bugs were too hard and dropped support.

      I've never had this problem with Nvidia, so even if they are slower from time to time, I'll stick with a company that doesn't screw me.

      I appreciate the fact that ATI is increasing competition these days, but they'll never get another cent of mine.

      --
      "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
  2. But can you hack a GeForce like you can hack Radeo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nothing beats my 9500 to 9700 card. Its a simple driver hack. Now my lowly 130$ budget card can whoop any GeforceFX garbage. Plus the overclockability after its a 9700. You just dont get any sweeter.

  3. maybe, just maybe... by PoPRawkZ · · Score: 5, Funny

    someone programmed the shaders to work with glide... i can't help hoping 3Dfx will perform some voodoo and ressurrect from nVidia's ashes. excuse me now, i must go stroke my voodoo5

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    peace,
    -Grokent
    1. Re:maybe, just maybe... by rootofevil · · Score: 2, Funny

      thats fine, just point it away from me.

      --
      turn up the jukebox and tell me a lie
  4. Here's the real story: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Experience:

    GeForce FX is really noisy

    Explanation:

    It sucks in large amounts of air to keep it cool. This is one of two ways a GeForce FX sucks. The other way is beyond the scope of this post.

  5. [OT] Still no FOSS drivers by sould · · Score: 2

    Bah!

    Not interested in anything NVidia do or say until they strile some agreement with the people who'se IP they license for their drivers & Open them...

    2 Years since I bought my Geforce & I still cant have 3D accelleration, tv out and framebuffer all working at once.

  6. I wonder what a structured classroom approach... by tloh · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Weird timing. I'm currently writing code for a class on microcontrollers. Most electrical engineering students would at some time come across an advanced digital course on microprocessors where one learns about different machine architectures and how to write assembly code for them. Are there any /.ers who have systematically studies GPU chips as part of a class, like say on graphic algorithms or DSP?

    --
    Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
  7. Lies! by zapp · · Score: 4, Funny

    Does the FX architecture involve cheating on benchmarks? :)

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    no comment
  8. Re:3 Nvidia Articles?!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yes, it's common practice to pay websites to post articles about why your product sucks. Don't let anyone tell you that the bad press might possibly hurt business, that's a lie.

  9. On the other hand... by La+Temperanza · · Score: 3, Interesting

    NVidia has much better Linux drivers then ATI. Support 'em.

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    est modus in rebus
  10. One assumption is probably wrong by hbog · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From the article - "Because of the length of the pipeline and the latencies of sampling textures it is possible that the pipeline is full before the first quad reaches its end. In this case the Gatekeeper has to wait as long as is takes the quad to reach the end. Every clock cycle that passes means wasted performance then. An increased number of quads in the pipeline lowers the risk of such pipeline stalls."

    I understand that the article writers are trying to come up with reasons that the Nvidia part is wasting performance, but this doesn't make sense. No architect in this right mind would ever design a pipeline that becomes full before the first instruction can exit. The means that you are fetching much faster than you are retiring instructions. That means you will always have a pipeline stall at the frontend and you will always be wasting cycles. I think the designers would have checked something like that. You can't afford pipeline stalls to happen regularly.

  11. Re:I wonder what a structured classroom approach.. by mmp · · Score: 2, Informative
    Sure, there are classes completely about the architecture of graphics hardware here and there. The slides for each of these two classes on graphics hardware are excellent.

    Owens @ UC Davis

    Akeley and Hanrahan @ Stanford

  12. Anand tells the tale by Bob-o-Matic! · · Score: 2, Informative
    Anandtech's article clearly shows that ATI's DX9 totally pwnz0rz nVidia's. And probably will at least until nv40 is released.

    ATI 9x owners rejoice, indeed! Even the budget 9200 smokes the 5600 Ultra!

    1. Re:Anand tells the tale by Bob-o-Matic! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      damn-- too much sierra nevada pale ale... hosed the hyperlink to the article

  13. Linux Drivers by maizena · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the Windows(argh) world I really couldn't care less about what card to use.
    ATI or NVIDIA, it's just a matter of taste and/or faith.

    But in the Linux world NVIDIA still rules.
    And it's not that NVIDIA's cards are better, but they at least have a descent Linux driver.

    The bottom line is: "If you use Linux, the best choice still is a NVIDIA card!"

    1. Re:Linux Drivers by gotr00t · · Score: 2

      Don't forget that the Open Source DRI 3D acceleration has indeed come in the last year alone, and most people use them for their ATI Radeons that ATI did not make Linux drivers for. About a year ago, I bought an ATI Radeon 7500 PCI, and I couldn't use it at all because of the fact that there were no suitable Linux drivers for it (DRI only supported AGP at that time, I think), and just two months ago, I decided to check it out again, and with the new 4.3 version of XFree86, 3D acceleration works perfectly, though it is after this card has been left unused for over 10 months.

  14. Re:3dcenter.org is not registered? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    By default "whois" won't show registration for ANY .org's--remember, .org has a different registrar now, and whois uses "whois.internic.net" by default, which only serves .com and .net. For .org, you need to do a query at whois.pir.org:

    whois 3dcenter.org@whois.pir.org

  15. Re:Blantantly Off-topic by IntlHarvester · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe I'm just blind, but I can't tell the difference between my Matrox G400 Max, ELSA Gladiac 920 (nVidia GF3), and ATI 9700 Pro. IBM P260 Monitor.

    Matrox may have had an advantage a while back, but it's nothing conclusive now days.

    --
    Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
  16. Re:All I heard was BLAH BLAH BLAH Nvidia sucks by TrancePhreak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sounds like you forgot to play games. I know at least Never Winter Nights is still not working well, as well as a few other games as of late.
    http://www.rage3d.com

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    -]Phreak Out[-
  17. Their bias is showing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    I couldn't help get past 3D Center's not-so-subtle editorializing.

    From the article:
    Die CineFX Pipeline[!] (emphasis added)

    Er, oh wait, it's in German as well...
  18. GeforceFX by BigFootApe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This article seems to reiterate what everyone has been saying (Carmack, Valve, everyone). The GeforceFX architecture can only be made competitive for 3d engines using modern shaders with herculean effort. This is to be competitive, not dominantly superior.

    Honestly, I thought nVidia learned their lesson with the NV1 - don't make weird hardware.

    Now, what has to be making GeforceFX owners worried is Gabe Newell's warning that the new Detonator drivers might be making illegitimate 'optimizations' and, furthermore, covering them up by rendering high quality screen captures.

  19. Re:But can you hack a GeForce like you can hack Ra by top_dog_nuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Oh, but you are wrong my friend. :) Newegg has these old style cards in stock. I bought one last week. I have all 8 pipelines after the soft mod.
    Notice in the picture the arrangement of the memory chips AROUND the core.
    http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?c atalog= 48&DEPA=1&submit=property&mfrcode=0&propertycode=& propertycodevalue=4396,3668

  20. It's really very simple ... by dzym · · Score: 2, Informative
    Gamesdepot had a short one question one answer session with Gabe Newell, then John Carmack himself on Nvidia shader performance: clicky!

    The proof is in the pudding.

  21. Re:I wonder what a structured classroom approach.. by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I did a project a while back using TIGA and the associated chips. You might want to take a look at , FPGA and User Interface Guide.

    It's all obsolete and legacy now. But it gives you a good idea about how a current day graphics card is designed. Back then, the various components had to be implemented on separate chips (eg. RAMDAC's, clock oscillators, memory decoding, graphics).

    TI also had the TMS34082 vector processor. You could have up to four of those in a slave/master configuration (a bit like the PS2 VU0 processor). The TMS34020 supported 1/2/4/8/16/24/32 bit pixel sizes and had a parallogram rendering instruction (Two of those allow you to render a triangle). If they had kept the product range going and allowed Moore's law to keep going, they would probably have been able to keep up with 3Dfx.

    Intel also has the i860 which combined the floating point and graphics processing onto a single chip. The Intel XEON chip still supports this instruction set.

    If you can access the IEEE and ACM archives, you'll find out about dozens more such processors.

    Presently, you should have a look at the OpenGL extension a href="http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/regis try/ARB/vertex_program.txt">ARB_vertex_program and "a href="http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ogl-sample/regis try/ARB/fragment_program.txt">ARB_fragment_program .

    Any Google search on these topics will provide an almost infinite list of topics.