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Hotel Being Sued for Using the Dewey Decimal System
cbull writes "Did you know the Dewey Decimal System isn't in the public domain? The rights are owned by the Online Computer Library Center. They are suing the Library Hotel in New York for trademark infringement. In addition, according to the article, libraries pay at least $500/year to use the system."
Just one more reason to do away with an antiquated filing system.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
Next thing you know, someone's going to start charging for Linux.
Oh, wait...
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Dewey Decimal for Law books. They're gonna need it.
Hmm... from what I've found out about DDC, it seems like my school library uses it.
r o.pdf
I really doubt they have a license. And there's no way to find out until tuesday... I can't wait!
Oh, and here's a nice intro on DDC:
http://www.oclc.org/dewey/versions/ddc22print/int
(Why is there a space between the 'r' and 'o'?)
From the article:
"A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."
Don't you think that a person browsing the website might just think "Oh, they're a theme hotel"?
On the other hand, if libraries have to license it, then I guess that's how it works.
Hewey and Lewey got to say about this ?
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
"Don't you know the Dewey Decimal System????"
CONAN THE LIBRARIAN!
Kick in the Head
According to this page, Melvil Dewey (1851-1931) anonymously published the system in 1876.
On the other hand, it seems that the Online Compyter Library Center does do quite a bit of work to maintain the system, which should entitle them to some rights - but it sure seems that if some guy published something anonymously in 1876, he probably intended it to be in the public domain. Seems to me, if the hotel was based on the original system, and not the one improved by subsequent owners, he should be ok - especially if they referred to it as the "Melvil Dewey System" or something.
I had no idea it was owned - how come they aren't going after the elementary schools that teach the system? Or is that included in their library's license? And how come we're teaching a proprietary, trademarked system? Next thing you know, they'll be teaching our kids Windows!!!
666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
"A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."
Yeah, right. If I was particularly jetlagged, drunk or whatever, I might pop up to the counter and ask to speak to Melvil Dewey. But I'm sure I'm not alone in that I never even considered that a numeric system invented in the next-to-previous century would still be owned today, much less that anyone who used it would be representative of that owner.
It's lucky that I'm ambivalent about my primary school; when I was there, I organised the books according to the Dewey system. If I were at all bitter, I'd rat them out, and not just becuase the 098 section was completely empty.
Oh, and here's something funny. In my research for this comment, I typed 'dewey 098' into google to see if it still meant what I thought it did.
098 is for forbidden books. Now that you know that google for 'dewey 098' while you're feeling lucky.
Anything from before the 1920s should be in the public domain, even if nothing after that will ever go into the public domain. I mean, was there indeed some perpetual copyright clause slipped into some bill or another? How could anybody otherwise still own the rights to this?
i like the erotica package detailed on their site.. sounds pretty good.. i dont think my girlfriend's parents would too much approve of us utilizing such facilities though and it probably costs more than the $2 that belongs to me. college. blah.
My alma mater uses the Library of Congress system for numbering its books. Sure, it's not quite as simple for children to understand (a letter code, followed by numbers, then more letters), and is copyrighted, but as far as I know it's royalty-free to use.
"But always she's the spectre of uncertainty I first endured, then faded, then embraced..."
The rights to it were bought by SCO.
You can't trademark the system, but you can trademark "Dewey Decimal System". I assume that they're refering to the latter. They certainly can't trademark the system at all, because the system itself is based on numbers, and you can't trademark numbers. As Intel found out, hence the "Pentium" rather than the "80586".
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I think they trademarked the term "Dewey Decimal System". The objection isn't to the use of the system itself (even if it was patented, I doubt the patent would extend to hotel room clasification) it's that the website uses the term (or trademark) Dewey Decimal System all over it.
How on Earth did they pick the damages amount for this case?
...
From the CNN story
"The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Columbus seeks triple the hotel's profits since its opening or triple the organization's damages, whichever is greater, from the hotel's owner."
"Dreitler said Saturday he and his client do not yet know the size of the hotel's profits. The center, based in Dublin, is willing to settle with the hotel's owners, he said."
If this does not scream frivolous lawsuit (or lottery ticket lawsuit) then I don't know what does. I thought if you were suing someone for "damages" that you had pick an amount, not just claim "triple whatever is going to get me the most money".
This is more proof that the legal system in the US is severely broken and abused.
oke. Back to subject. This leads me to the next question. How much sense does it make to make libraries pay for one more thing? And will the next step be to raise this license fee? Most libraries are struggling along as it is, so i hope not. There isn't enough storage and there isn't enough funding, and it drives me crazy to see book sales held sometimes, in those cases where it's just because there's no way to maintain the full shelves.
Let me rephrase this. Most libraries are non-profit entities. Five bucks a year isn't a lot of money, but it's money being charged for a standard system that would take a lot of time and effort to shift away from. Maybe derivative works should be allowed; if a hotel is using it for anything other than books, maybe it should be hailed as an innovative way to make people more aware of the system itself. But i'm willing to accept that the system 'owners' may have the legal right to collect... it's the obsessive nature of this particular instance that bothers me. *shrug* i could be way off-base.
So... the most important point here, i think, is: What's a better way? And how can we make it free to libraries and other non-profits?
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
Even if the complaint was reasonable, the damages being sought are beyond absurd. Triple the profits the hotel has made since it opened? First, I can't imagine how the OCLC was damaged beyond the loss of revenue they would have gotten from a license. Second, I can't imagine that every cent of profit the hotel made over the last three years was a direct result of their use of the Dewey Decimal system. Perhaps some of it came from, I dunno, being conveniently placed in the middle of New York?
It would only make sense that they should have to prove that every customer who stayed there wouldn't have were it not for their use of the Dewey Decimal system.
It sounds like this non-profit actually serves a useful purpose, but I really hope that if this goes to court, their damages get capped at around $4500 (triple the money the hotel saved by not buying a license).
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
The suit is for trademark infringement, not copyright or patent infringement.
In the U.S. Trademark rights can be held indefinitely by the registrant, or it's successors in interest as in this case, with timely filing of required paperwork and paying of appropriate fees.
What I find amusing is that the designer's of the hotel clearly did not do their homework. The research branch of the New York Public Library doesn't even use the Dewey system. It uses the Library of Congress categories. Here's the NYPL's online catalog. I guess the designer's went into the Library to look at the architecture, but didn't actually bother to call for a book, or even check the catalog. Had they, they wouldn't be in this pickle.
The closer you are to the code, the happier you are. - Ancient Geek Proverb
I think the point is that anything invented 130 years ago by someone who died 72 years ago damn well ought to be in the public domain by now, and the fact that it's not is a shining example of why drastic overhaul of so much IP law is desperately needed.
And if it's trademarked, there shouldn't be any problem, since they don't call themselves the "Dewey Decimal Hotel."
It's trademarked, and there is a problem because they are using the Dewey Decimal System name in their advertising without permission.
Oh, but DDC1, published 130 years ago by someone who died 72 years ago, is in the public domain now.
It's pretty useless if you want to classify 20th century history, or airplanes, or cars or computers. Relativity and Quantum, just where exactly in Physics should those go?
DDC22, on the other hand, is latest, fairly-up-to-date product of immense amounts of hard (and it must be said mind-blowingly boring) work by dedicated specialists who classified 110,000 new items last year, and will no doubt have to classify even more this year, and more the year after. Nobody's stopping you from using the 'invention' (a hierarchical classification scheme using numeric indicators), it's just the trademark and the copyrighted content of the Dewey implementation of this invention that's protected.
AFAIK, anything in a hundred year old Britannica is out of copyright, as are many early versions of Dewey. But the world moves on. And in the absence of de facto standards like DDC or LOC, every library would have to classify every new accession from first principles (as I say, both specialised, and mind-damagingly dull work), and there wouldn't be any consistency between libraries, which is a useful collateral bonus of the big schemes.
tomV
Initially I read the Slashdot comments only and was under the impression that the DDC's lawsuit may have some merit. But after visiting the hotel's site I was completely fucking outraged at the American IP legal climate...
Here is what I found. The hotel uses something which very much resembles the original DDC classification, which is in public domain. As the site states, "Each of the ten guestroom floors of the Library is dedicated to one of the ten major categories of the Dewey Decimal System: Social Sciences, Literature, Languages, History, Math & Science, General Knowledge, Technology, Philosophy, The Arts and Religion. Each of the sixty exquisitely appointed accommodations have been individually adorned with a collection of art and books relevant to one distinctive topic within the category of floor it belongs to.".
It's simply fucking insane that DDC is suing the hotel for that. I mean, WTF?! They claim trademark infridgement? They use the basic classification which is probably the same as original one, created 130 years ago and is now in public domain. If they use it, they are completely within their rights to call it "Dewey Decimal System" because that's what it is. And it's not like the hotel is in any competition with DDC. Nor any customers will be confused that the hotel is somehow affiliated with DDC. Stupid lawsuit and the whole concept of IP should be trashed. It's long overdue.
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