Hotel Being Sued for Using the Dewey Decimal System

cbull writes "Did you know the Dewey Decimal System isn't in the public domain? The rights are owned by the Online Computer Library Center. They are suing the Library Hotel in New York for trademark infringement. In addition, according to the article, libraries pay at least $500/year to use the system."

Comments

This could be good

[Ryosen]

Just one more reason to do away with an antiquated filing system.

Re:This could be good

[ahfoo]

No doubt. The DDC is such a pain in the ass when you're used to LOC. I am also suprised to find tht it's still being licensed. I thought the only people still using it were in countries that didn't want to submit to LOC guidelines because their own copyright laws were uhm, different.
I know that's the case here in Taiwan. I was shocked to find major research universities using DDC and then when I began working with a publisher I learned that it had a lot to do with copyright and the LOC. In fact, I taught classes on using the LOC at one point for students preparing to go overseas.
But personally I find the DDC obnoxious and far more of an obstacle to research than a helpful classification system.

Re:This could be good

[Anonymous Coward]

Both Dewey and Library of Congress are "divide and conquer" stratergies - that is, you split the search space into smaller and smaller chunks until you find what you're looking for.

This is an acceptable solution when you're searching on paper or your search sapce isn't that large, but today we have computers and far more data.

For example, "Algorithms in C" is a classic text a lot of people here probably own.

But does it belong under "math", "computer science", or "computer languages -> C"? (Dewey seperates Computing out into a seperate category, rather than placing it under math).

The answer, of course, is all three.

The ideal system would be a free-text search of all the books in the catalogue. But until we can do that, keywords and searchable abstracts are more useful than categories. Just put the damn books on the shelf in order of author.

Re:This could be good

[ahfoo]

It's simple really. You're not supposed to just make up LOC numbers for you local archive out of thin air. If you've got a new title, you have to submit your title to the LOC. But if your book is largely a collection of "borrowed" material being reprinted without authorization, that's obviously not going to be your first choice.
Things really have changed with the IP nazis on everybody's ass these days, but once upon a time there was a large market in reprinting expensive foreign titles and even making custom bound compilations. See the problem? Where are you going to file that?

Re:This could be good

[orthogonal]

The ideal system would be a free-text search of all the books in the catalogue.

You make a very good point that a hierarchical system isn't suitable for cataloging. I have the same problem with my more than 6000 (all legally acquired) MP3s: Artists span Genres, Albums contain works by more than one Composer, Artists may appear in more than one Group/Band/Orchestra, etc.

But free-text search isn't a great solution; we've all seen that with Google: I can find web pages about Apple MacIntosh and I can find pages about growing Apple MacIntoshes, but it's hard to separate the pages about computers from those about cookery.

In these cases, an abstract is more useful than a full-text search.

Re:This could be good

[Zoop]

The ideal system would be a free-text search of all the books in the catalogue.

No, no, no, no.

What is needed is that PLUS exactly what you hinted at: faceted classification.

Books can be arranged on the shelves by author or FILO or whatever, but they should be, in the age of computers, indexed by multiple heirarchical facets.

Keywords and free-text searches are far too unreliable, even in the age of Google. If you're doing serious research, you can't rely on the first Google hit, you need to try several different methods. In fact, Google's methodology, ranking by weighted hyperlink popularity, wouldn't apply to books.

What you need are a combination of faceted classification (like the subject entries in the cataloging software most libraries use) and free-text as well as abstract searching. Quite frankly, humans and the software they write are too stupid to classify everything well enough to use one system or another exclusively.

Fees for this?

[Martin Blank]

Next thing you know, someone's going to start charging for Linux.

Oh, wait...

340

[Anonymous Coward]

Dewey Decimal for Law books. They're gonna need it.

Out of business

[larien]

We're not interested in putting the hotel out of business.

Er, so why are you suing for "triple the hotel's profits since its opening or triple the organization's damages, whichever is greater"? Yes, they're willing to settle, but to be honest, the first line should have been a lawyer's letter, not filing a complaint. I can only assume that the lawyers can charge more for filing a complaint so they advised them to file rather than discuss.

Re:Out of business

[signe]

Read the article first, please.

The lawsuit said the center sent three letters to Kallan from October 2000 to October 2002, asking for acknowledgment of Online's ownership of the Dewey trademarks, but the hotel owner didn't respond.

While I agree the hotel should pay the back licensing fees, I think this lawsuit is a little excessive. But given that they said letters were sent, it's probably just to get the hotel's attention. The OCLC even says at the bottom of the article that they're looking to settle, and they don't want the hotel to go out of business. They just want a licensing agreement.

I've been to the Library Hotel. It's a really nice place. Yes, the books play an integral part in the ambiance of the hotel. But the use of the Dewey Decimal System is hardly the biggest thing they've got going for them, or the most important. They could easily drop the DDC classifications of the floors and rooms and the hotel would lose nothing by it.

-Todd

Re:Out of business

[Meowing]

One more time: The hotel isn't just using the classification system, it stole the trademark "Dewey Decimal" to advertise a profit-making business that uses the system. If Microsoft decided to rename its Services for Unix product to Linux.NET without getting Mr. Torvald's permission, would that be okay?

School library

[Leffe]

Hmm... from what I've found out about DDC, it seems like my school library uses it.

I really doubt they have a license. And there's no way to find out until tuesday... I can't wait!

Oh, and here's a nice intro on DDC:

http://www.oclc.org/dewey/versions/ddc22print/intr o.pdf
(Why is there a space between the 'r' and 'o'?)

Connections

[mopslik]

From the article:

"A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."

Don't you think that a person browsing the website might just think "Oh, they're a theme hotel"?

On the other hand, if libraries have to license it, then I guess that's how it works.

What have

[Timesprout]

Hewey and Lewey got to say about this ?

hah

[yoshi1013]

"Excuse me, where can I find a book on astronomy?"

"Don't you know the Dewey Decimal System????"

CONAN THE LIBRARIAN!

How is this even possible?

[tbase]

According to this page, Melvil Dewey (1851-1931) anonymously published the system in 1876.

On the other hand, it seems that the Online Compyter Library Center does do quite a bit of work to maintain the system, which should entitle them to some rights - but it sure seems that if some guy published something anonymously in 1876, he probably intended it to be in the public domain. Seems to me, if the hotel was based on the original system, and not the one improved by subsequent owners, he should be ok - especially if they referred to it as the "Melvil Dewey System" or something.

I had no idea it was owned - how come they aren't going after the elementary schools that teach the system? Or is that included in their library's license? And how come we're teaching a proprietary, trademarked system? Next thing you know, they'll be teaching our kids Windows!!!

Bullshit

[rde]

"A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."

Yeah, right. If I was particularly jetlagged, drunk or whatever, I might pop up to the counter and ask to speak to Melvil Dewey. But I'm sure I'm not alone in that I never even considered that a numeric system invented in the next-to-previous century would still be owned today, much less that anyone who used it would be representative of that owner.

It's lucky that I'm ambivalent about my primary school; when I was there, I organised the books according to the Dewey system. If I were at all bitter, I'd rat them out, and not just becuase the 098 section was completely empty.

Oh, and here's something funny. In my research for this comment, I typed 'dewey 098' into google to see if it still meant what I thought it did.
098 is for forbidden books. Now that you know that google for 'dewey 098' while you're feeling lucky.

Created in 1873?

[MunchMunch]

Now hold on--The article itself states that "Melvil Dewey created the most widely used library classification system in 1873."

Anything from before the 1920s should be in the public domain, even if nothing after that will ever go into the public domain. I mean, was there indeed some perpetual copyright clause slipped into some bill or another? How could anybody otherwise still own the rights to this?

library hotel

[ibmman85]

i like the erotica package detailed on their site.. sounds pretty good.. i dont think my girlfriend's parents would too much approve of us utilizing such facilities though and it probably costs more than the $2 that belongs to me. college. blah.

Re:Trademarked?

[GnrcMan]

I think they trademarked the term "Dewey Decimal System". The objection isn't to the use of the system itself (even if it was patented, I doubt the patent would extend to hotel room clasification) it's that the website uses the term (or trademark) Dewey Decimal System all over it.

This is absurd.

[An Onerous Coward]

Even if the complaint was reasonable, the damages being sought are beyond absurd. Triple the profits the hotel has made since it opened? First, I can't imagine how the OCLC was damaged beyond the loss of revenue they would have gotten from a license. Second, I can't imagine that every cent of profit the hotel made over the last three years was a direct result of their use of the Dewey Decimal system. Perhaps some of it came from, I dunno, being conveniently placed in the middle of New York?

It would only make sense that they should have to prove that every customer who stayed there wouldn't have were it not for their use of the Dewey Decimal system.

It sounds like this non-profit actually serves a useful purpose, but I really hope that if this goes to court, their damages get capped at around $4500 (triple the money the hotel saved by not buying a license).

It's a Trademark infringement case.

[ExRex]

The suit is for trademark infringement, not copyright or patent infringement.

In the U.S. Trademark rights can be held indefinitely by the registrant, or it's successors in interest as in this case, with timely filing of required paperwork and paying of appropriate fees.

What I find amusing is that the designer's of the hotel clearly did not do their homework. The research branch of the New York Public Library doesn't even use the Dewey system. It uses the Library of Congress categories. Here's the NYPL's online catalog. I guess the designer's went into the Library to look at the architecture, but didn't actually bother to call for a book, or even check the catalog. Had they, they wouldn't be in this pickle.

Re:Oh good grief

[Meowing]

and i wasn't aware that our library paid a license fee. (In fact, i don't remember that in our expenses at all, which makes me wonder whether it fell under 'miscellaneous,' or whether our relatively-new library simply failed to bother...)

It's sort of a hidden fee. The DDC book costs about $400, new edition every 3 years or so.

Note though, that the hotel isn't being sued for using the classification system, but for infringing on the Dewey trademark for commercial purposes.

Re:A better history

[Blondie-Wan]

I think the point is that anything invented 130 years ago by someone who died 72 years ago damn well ought to be in the public domain by now, and the fact that it's not is a shining example of why drastic overhaul of so much IP law is desperately needed.

Re:whichever it is, it should have expired

[the eric conspiracy]

And if it's trademarked, there shouldn't be any problem, since they don't call themselves the "Dewey Decimal Hotel."

It's trademarked, and there is a problem because they are using the Dewey Decimal System name in their advertising without permission.