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Hotel Being Sued for Using the Dewey Decimal System
cbull writes "Did you know the Dewey Decimal System isn't in the public domain? The rights are owned by the Online Computer Library Center. They are suing the Library Hotel in New York for trademark infringement. In addition, according to the article, libraries pay at least $500/year to use the system."
i would like to copyright all the prime numbers.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Just one more reason to do away with an antiquated filing system.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
Next thing you know, someone's going to start charging for Linux.
Oh, wait...
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
"At a minimum, if they want to continue to use it, there certainly has to be some sort of a license to the Library Hotel," he said. "We're not interested in putting the hotel out of business."
___P>
I suppose ___P> is phonetics for foot-in-mouth ?
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
Dewey Decimal for Law books. They're gonna need it.
Yet another example of IPR gone awry. Anyone interested in starting a Sourceforge project for an open source classification system?
Hmm... from what I've found out about DDC, it seems like my school library uses it.
r o.pdf
I really doubt they have a license. And there's no way to find out until tuesday... I can't wait!
Oh, and here's a nice intro on DDC:
http://www.oclc.org/dewey/versions/ddc22print/int
(Why is there a space between the 'r' and 'o'?)
From the article:
"A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."
Don't you think that a person browsing the website might just think "Oh, they're a theme hotel"?
On the other hand, if libraries have to license it, then I guess that's how it works.
How can you trademark the Dewey Decimal System? Sounds more like a patentable system to me... So how did it get filed under the trademark category? (Nice to know they've registered it under the one class of IP which never expires as long as you pay. I mean, look, it says it was created in 1873!)
u can ask for the defendant's profits, our view is since we have written to these people three different times, it was certainly intentional and it was certainly
we have no way of knowing until the discovery takes place how much their profits are
Looks like a slashdot editor added that in... but what's up with the usage of "u" instead of "You"?
Does this mean that I'll have to pay if organise my book collection according to Dewey system?
Im pretty sure god and the US gov will sue you for prior art though...
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
I here you are also supposed to pay royalties when you sing the "Happy Birthday" song in public. Strange world.
Hewey and Lewey got to say about this ?
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
I hadn't stepped into the local public library since college. On a recent visit it would seem that the Dewey Decimal System had been replaced with a different system using letters. No one present was sure of the reason for the change, giving a bunch of differing opinions depending on who I asked, perhaps this was the reason all along.
Please, tell me that at least that won't happen... or only for letters "a" and "o"...
Send for Conan The Librarian
"Don't you know the Dewey Decimal System????"
CONAN THE LIBRARIAN!
Kick in the Head
They really should use The Library of Congress' Classification -- it's currently in use by (most?) libraries, and no one owns a trademark on it!
cb
Oooh! What does this button do!?
What "rights" are they talking about here? That is, what sort of IP is being licensed?
Patents would make a sort of sense, but Dewy Decimal dates back to 1873, so it can't be a patent. Copyright doesn't seem to apply since there isn't obviously a "work" being copied.
What gives? Is it just a matter of the trademark?
According to this page, Melvil Dewey (1851-1931) anonymously published the system in 1876.
On the other hand, it seems that the Online Compyter Library Center does do quite a bit of work to maintain the system, which should entitle them to some rights - but it sure seems that if some guy published something anonymously in 1876, he probably intended it to be in the public domain. Seems to me, if the hotel was based on the original system, and not the one improved by subsequent owners, he should be ok - especially if they referred to it as the "Melvil Dewey System" or something.
I had no idea it was owned - how come they aren't going after the elementary schools that teach the system? Or is that included in their library's license? And how come we're teaching a proprietary, trademarked system? Next thing you know, they'll be teaching our kids Windows!!!
666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
"A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."
Yeah, right. If I was particularly jetlagged, drunk or whatever, I might pop up to the counter and ask to speak to Melvil Dewey. But I'm sure I'm not alone in that I never even considered that a numeric system invented in the next-to-previous century would still be owned today, much less that anyone who used it would be representative of that owner.
It's lucky that I'm ambivalent about my primary school; when I was there, I organised the books according to the Dewey system. If I were at all bitter, I'd rat them out, and not just becuase the 098 section was completely empty.
Oh, and here's something funny. In my research for this comment, I typed 'dewey 098' into google to see if it still meant what I thought it did.
098 is for forbidden books. Now that you know that google for 'dewey 098' while you're feeling lucky.
Anything from before the 1920s should be in the public domain, even if nothing after that will ever go into the public domain. I mean, was there indeed some perpetual copyright clause slipped into some bill or another? How could anybody otherwise still own the rights to this?
I'm not being some sort of commu-terrorist, I'm trying to figure this out. The Dewey system was invented in the 1870s. It's something around 130 years old. How can it POSSIBLY still have its rights tied up? I thought until around 1930 our Congress was still rational enough to see that having things going to the Public Domain was a good thing.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
i like the erotica package detailed on their site.. sounds pretty good.. i dont think my girlfriend's parents would too much approve of us utilizing such facilities though and it probably costs more than the $2 that belongs to me. college. blah.
My alma mater uses the Library of Congress system for numbering its books. Sure, it's not quite as simple for children to understand (a letter code, followed by numbers, then more letters), and is copyrighted, but as far as I know it's royalty-free to use.
"But always she's the spectre of uncertainty I first endured, then faded, then embraced..."
That and the $10,000/year in license fees paid to the Mint family for the right to put a chocolate on your pillow.
...you didn't read the article? they did send a couple of letters over a period of years.
dumbass.
(Please browse at -1 to read this comment.)
I had the same reaction.
If the Dewey Decimal system is copyrighted, the copyright should have expired.
If it's patented, it should have expired.
And if it's trademarked, there shouldn't be any problem, since they don't call themselves the "Dewey Decimal Hotel."
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Even though the Dewey Decimal system is the most counterintuitive and idiotic system in the world. Seriously, any time I go to a library (which used to be a lot since during high school my bus dropped me off at the library about ten miles from my house, until i could drive to school and then I moved away to college). If I needed to research something I would look through the subject on the search computers (which were ancient but they worked and they had all the books in there categorized). Then I would scratch my head at the Dewey Numbers, and go down the aisle and look through the alphabetical by author organization and find the book.
Seriously, that system is utterly useless beyond the overall categories it places books into, and even those are inelegant and I'm pretty sure tha tmy library (MIddleboro Public) breaks them up ijnto liitle bits, like European History, further from the Broad Dewey system categories.
That's really all that needs to be done, post up some stickers that show what the subject of the book is on a given set of shelves, and throw them in alphabetically by author, maybe give them a UPC and number those roughly in order, based on the library's preference.
I cannot understand why american companies are in this suing fury about copyright/trademark infringement.
It is really sad to see the world of business going this way.
They should try to look at it from a new angle and see the benefits they could have in a joint venture or by adopting a new business model.
Tell that to the online sex toys site selling the 'Altivec' butt plugs.
A Good Intro to NetBS
How on Earth did they pick the damages amount for this case?
...
From the CNN story
"The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Columbus seeks triple the hotel's profits since its opening or triple the organization's damages, whichever is greater, from the hotel's owner."
"Dreitler said Saturday he and his client do not yet know the size of the hotel's profits. The center, based in Dublin, is willing to settle with the hotel's owners, he said."
If this does not scream frivolous lawsuit (or lottery ticket lawsuit) then I don't know what does. I thought if you were suing someone for "damages" that you had pick an amount, not just claim "triple whatever is going to get me the most money".
This is more proof that the legal system in the US is severely broken and abused.
Sorry dude, but someone's beaten you to it
oke. Back to subject. This leads me to the next question. How much sense does it make to make libraries pay for one more thing? And will the next step be to raise this license fee? Most libraries are struggling along as it is, so i hope not. There isn't enough storage and there isn't enough funding, and it drives me crazy to see book sales held sometimes, in those cases where it's just because there's no way to maintain the full shelves.
Let me rephrase this. Most libraries are non-profit entities. Five bucks a year isn't a lot of money, but it's money being charged for a standard system that would take a lot of time and effort to shift away from. Maybe derivative works should be allowed; if a hotel is using it for anything other than books, maybe it should be hailed as an innovative way to make people more aware of the system itself. But i'm willing to accept that the system 'owners' may have the legal right to collect... it's the obsessive nature of this particular instance that bothers me. *shrug* i could be way off-base.
So... the most important point here, i think, is: What's a better way? And how can we make it free to libraries and other non-profits?
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
"dear dewey guys"
we have immediately stopped using your system... but much to our horror and dismay, people keep putting the books right back where they got them from. if you would like us to mess em up a bit, let us know.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
Even if the complaint was reasonable, the damages being sought are beyond absurd. Triple the profits the hotel has made since it opened? First, I can't imagine how the OCLC was damaged beyond the loss of revenue they would have gotten from a license. Second, I can't imagine that every cent of profit the hotel made over the last three years was a direct result of their use of the Dewey Decimal system. Perhaps some of it came from, I dunno, being conveniently placed in the middle of New York?
It would only make sense that they should have to prove that every customer who stayed there wouldn't have were it not for their use of the Dewey Decimal system.
It sounds like this non-profit actually serves a useful purpose, but I really hope that if this goes to court, their damages get capped at around $4500 (triple the money the hotel saved by not buying a license).
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
This is just another example of people with money sue'ing other people for money. Whats next, the RAII sueing a 12 year old girl....oh, wait.
"Pathetic human race. Arranging their knowledge by category just made it easier to absorb. Dewey, you fool! Your decimal system has played right into my hands!"
-The Big Brain
Oh Crap... I had better find a new way to organize my MP3s!
ok so i guess somebody on the other side of the world just happened to try what I jokingly said. Does that truly warrant a point deduction?!
Esoteric reference.
Library of Congress call number for normal stuff; Sudoc numbers for gov't publications.
You can unfortunately repatent them, a patent only lasts 20 or 30 years. Or something like that.
The suit is for trademark infringement, not copyright or patent infringement.
In the U.S. Trademark rights can be held indefinitely by the registrant, or it's successors in interest as in this case, with timely filing of required paperwork and paying of appropriate fees.
What I find amusing is that the designer's of the hotel clearly did not do their homework. The research branch of the New York Public Library doesn't even use the Dewey system. It uses the Library of Congress categories. Here's the NYPL's online catalog. I guess the designer's went into the Library to look at the architecture, but didn't actually bother to call for a book, or even check the catalog. Had they, they wouldn't be in this pickle.
The closer you are to the code, the happier you are. - Ancient Geek Proverb
I had no idea Dewey Decimal system was copyrighted. I also have no opinion on this lawsuit. However, I don't understand the outrage being directed at the maintainers of the system for charging to maintain it. I bet it takes money to maintain the Dewey Decimal system. Libraries benefit from Dewey. Ergo, libraries should pay to maintain it. Am I missing something? $500 is not a lot of money for just about any library.
Who do you suggest pay to maintain the system and catlog the works-- a governmnet entity, or maybe a self-organized group of volunteers. Seems the system works well, and provides a good value for the customers. How else would libraries organize their books-- alphabetically by author, ISBN number, or self-catalog every item that comes in? How much staff time would be spent cataloging each book. If it took 1 staff person 2 hours a week, that would cost a least double the current $500/year. For most libraries, it would take much more effort.
DDS offers a valuable service; why the outrage at collecting fees for that service?
If you read the article you will see it was filed by Frank Chetum of the law firm:
Dewey, Chetum & Howe, PLLC
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
The problem with this suit is that the people who maintain and add to the system are almost all employed by publicly funded institutions and are public employees.
They already get paid through taxes for this work.
They're trying to double dip here.
How many of us had heard of this hotel before today? Not only do they have publicity, but they have good publicity -- they're the 'victim'. Doesn't get any better than this.
(I wonder how willing a bank would be to offer a business a short term loan to cover legal expenses in light of the future increase in business.)
Slashdot monitor for your Mozilla sidebar or Active Desktop.
One reson that the DDC hasn't entered the Public Doman yet is that the ownrs kep puting out a new "verzon" every year or so. This is necesary from a clasification standpoint in that new things are neding to be clasified (in Dewey's day, it was a bit hard to imagin computer softwar neding to be put in a library). But it does mean that every tim a new version is published, it is given a seperat copyrit (since the content realy is diferent). A rough overview of the system can be sen her: http://www.tnrdlib.bc.ca/dewey.html Dewey was also a proponent of simplified speling: http://www.milton.k12.nh.us/Nute/melvil_dewey.htm# toc
At my college (CSU, Chico) the library uses the Library of Congress system. Anyone know if that is free? If it originated with the taxpayer-supported US Gov, I would think it should be free.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
I think the point is that anything invented 130 years ago by someone who died 72 years ago damn well ought to be in the public domain by now, and the fact that it's not is a shining example of why drastic overhaul of so much IP law is desperately needed.
So, Linux, which was created in 1990, or thereabouts, will be public domain in 2090, or thereabouts?
Wrong.
The Dewey Decimal System is still maintained, and updated. 130 years later. And if Linux is still maintained and updated, 130 years from now, it will still not be public domain.
Come on, people.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
This Dewey decimal system is 130 years old! HOW IN HELL is trhere still a valid copyright on something THAT old??
This is INSANE!!!!No? Chop off the root and you'd have something very similar to the Dewey Decimal system but not.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
It's a trademark infringement case, not patent or copyright. Assuming that's the only issue, OCLC is not complaining that the hotel uses certain ranges of numbers to classify books (that would be patent infringement, but as the parent points out the patent would long since have expired), but that the hotel uses a trademarked term with Dewey in it in their advertising and promotion -- in effect, that they're making a profit off of OCLC's "brand". If I'm understanding this correctly, there would be no problem if the Library Hotel had used the same numbers with the same meanings, but had referred to it throughout as the Library Hotel Classification System or something like that. (They'd probably even have been fine if they'd said that it was "similar to the Dewey Decimal classification system. Dewey Decimal is a trademark of OCLC.")
Yes, it still seems kind of silly, but it's not the gross abuse of IP law or the ridiculous state of affairs that lots of respondents are taking it for. It's more as if I opened the Soup Hotel, and named all the floors after trademarked Campbell's Soup brand names. I'd be fine if I named the floors "Chicken and Rice" and "Beef Stew", but if I named them "Campbell's Mega Noodle" and "Campbell's Chicken & Stars" and used promotional material that talked about all the soup flavours you grew up with, and service as good as the soup you love, and that sort of thing, then you can bet Campbell's Soup would come after me if I didn't have a licensing agreement with them, because I'm profiting off of their trademark.
In fact, the fact that OCLC tried a couple of times to contact the hotel before pursuing legal action makes me think that they may mostly care about this because they don't want to lose the trademark (which can happen if you don't defend it and people start using it generically).
Notice this question the report starts with? "Did you know the Dewey Decimal System isn't in the public domain?"
If the public thinks dewey is public then the trademark suit fails. In order to have a valid trademark it has to be recognized in trade. Essentially the same thing happened to unix, although AT&T basically just gave up rather than continuing to press the issue. (I make a point of never capitalizing unix except at the beginning of a sentence.)
Big Brother Bush is doubleplus ungood.
Colon classification (faceted analysis) has never been widely used in libraries (except in India) but has influenced a lot of other work in information sciences. Perhaps it's time to bring it into libraries, for which it was originally designed. It is far better than Dewey or LOC but those systems were better entrenched.
Have the OCLC's lawyers heard of the Wikipedia's version of the Dewey Decimal System yet.
And if it's trademarked, there shouldn't be any problem, since they don't call themselves the "Dewey Decimal Hotel."
It's trademarked, and there is a problem because they are using the Dewey Decimal System name in their advertising without permission.
I obviously can't speak for them, but I can provide some background on what they do. OCLC is a nonprofit org providing services for approx 45,000 libraries around the world. If you are a librarian and need to figure out how to catalog a new book in your collection, you go to OCLC to see how others have done it. Ever needed an item that wasn't in your library? OCLC handles the system for arranging inter-library loans. They do a fair amount of original research for libraries and they even open source some of the results. PURL is another OCLC project that some of you may be familiar with. The Dublin Core MetaData Initiative was co-founded by a researcher who got his start at OCLC and is now running the W3C's Symantic Web Initiaitve. OCLC is very well known and respected in the library community.
Library budgets the world over are under attack given the current economic situation. This leaves less and less money available for building the kind of common infrastructure that will help libraries continue to provide new and relevant services for their patrons as more and more of the content becomes digital. OCLC certainly has both the right and the need to defend the Dewey Decimal Trademarks from infringers.
FreeSpeech.org
This is a perfect example of why standards should never become intellectual property, and intellectual property must not be allowed to become a standard.
---------
There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
SCO will be claiming the Dewey Decimal Code wound up in the Linux kernal by way of some programmer at SGI...
:)
Yeah, I know, obligatory SCO reference...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Seriously. I use the system to organize my porn collection.
Now I have to find a new way to sort my lesbians from the goat porn, and the senior citizens gone wild series.
Blasted!
No shitting:
http://www.libraryhotel.com/special/erotica.html
-malakai
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
Iff the system were dead, then yes it should be public domain. But RTFA and you'll see the work is continuing to be updated as new fields of study arise.
Oh, but DDC1, published 130 years ago by someone who died 72 years ago, is in the public domain now.
It's pretty useless if you want to classify 20th century history, or airplanes, or cars or computers. Relativity and Quantum, just where exactly in Physics should those go?
DDC22, on the other hand, is latest, fairly-up-to-date product of immense amounts of hard (and it must be said mind-blowingly boring) work by dedicated specialists who classified 110,000 new items last year, and will no doubt have to classify even more this year, and more the year after. Nobody's stopping you from using the 'invention' (a hierarchical classification scheme using numeric indicators), it's just the trademark and the copyrighted content of the Dewey implementation of this invention that's protected.
AFAIK, anything in a hundred year old Britannica is out of copyright, as are many early versions of Dewey. But the world moves on. And in the absence of de facto standards like DDC or LOC, every library would have to classify every new accession from first principles (as I say, both specialised, and mind-damagingly dull work), and there wouldn't be any consistency between libraries, which is a useful collateral bonus of the big schemes.
tomV
Speaking as a librarian-in-training, I think I should note that the DDC system isn't static. It's currently in its 21st revision (with 22 coming out soon). Because of this, the copyrights are still valid. It's a work-in-progress. It needs to change to accomodate the changing world of information.
After all, GNU is Not Unix.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
You could remember all the Dewey categories?
Are you an excellent driver? if so, you and me should hit Vegas and play some blackjack.
T&K.
Political language
OOK = Official Otherworldly Klassification
Used by the KDE developers and mages on topside to classify everything. If you ask the librarian where a book is, he tells you to ook it up in the ook catalog. He abbreviates it to "Ook, OOK!"
I spend my life entertaining my brain.
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
obviously libraries and other institutions need to pay the poor, abused owners of this intellectual property right away.
libraries, who have to beg for funding because there still aren't enough bombs in the world yet.
libraries, who sell off stocks of books to pay expenses, because oops! your funding was appropriated to pay for a couple bolts on an F-16, or a toilet seat for a general.
for the cost of just one Giant Hulking War-Machine(TM) - one advanced figher or bomber, one M1-A1 Abrams tank, do you realise how many public institutions could be revitalized? Christ, $300 million goes a long way when it's not used for blowing stuff up, you know that?
> Speaking as a librarian-in-training, I think I should note that the DDC system isn't static. It's currently in its 21st revision (with 22 coming out soon). Because of this, the copyrights are still valid. It's a work-in-progress. It needs to change to accomodate the changing world of information.
What if they switch to using an old version? At the top level, probably not much as changed.
You know all those posts that have a variation on:
1. Do Something
2. ??? 3. Profit!
Now I understand what step 2 is. Sue everyone.
Seriously, though. The boneheads don't have a trademark for "Dewey Decimal" or "Dewey Decimal System" They have "Dewey" (one of a number of different "Dewey"s) and they have "Dewey Decimal Classification", but unless the Library Hotel was being promoted as the "Dewey Decimal Classification Libary Hotel" or "The Official Dewey Decimal Hotel" I don't see a case. And I am familiar with the need to police one's trademarks. This isn't about protecting a trademark because nobody at any time is going to be confused into thinking that the hotel has any relationship with the OCLC. Until this story ran, were there more than a few thousand in the US that even knew the organization existed?
Initially I read the Slashdot comments only and was under the impression that the DDC's lawsuit may have some merit. But after visiting the hotel's site I was completely fucking outraged at the American IP legal climate...
Here is what I found. The hotel uses something which very much resembles the original DDC classification, which is in public domain. As the site states, "Each of the ten guestroom floors of the Library is dedicated to one of the ten major categories of the Dewey Decimal System: Social Sciences, Literature, Languages, History, Math & Science, General Knowledge, Technology, Philosophy, The Arts and Religion. Each of the sixty exquisitely appointed accommodations have been individually adorned with a collection of art and books relevant to one distinctive topic within the category of floor it belongs to.".
It's simply fucking insane that DDC is suing the hotel for that. I mean, WTF?! They claim trademark infridgement? They use the basic classification which is probably the same as original one, created 130 years ago and is now in public domain. If they use it, they are completely within their rights to call it "Dewey Decimal System" because that's what it is. And it's not like the hotel is in any competition with DDC. Nor any customers will be confused that the hotel is somehow affiliated with DDC. Stupid lawsuit and the whole concept of IP should be trashed. It's long overdue.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
This shit is insane.
People are out of control with all this suing bullshit. I see that there are companies that are getting patents on DNA sequences. Next they will try to collect royalties from blue eyed people and suing those that won't pay.
They'll force people with blue eyes to either get a license to pro-create children that MIGHT have blue eyes or to mate with people that can not produce children with blue eyes.
And you can be damn sure that some liberal ass judge will back this shit up.
Really, lets just get rid of the freaking blood sucking lawyers already...
It's funny that so many things that you think should be public domain or should be at least not-for-profit, are?
I never would have imagined the Dewey Decimal System was patented and that libraries have pay money, each year, to use it in their library.
--If only there was a license required to use a computer.
Nothing a high-powered rifle bullet can't fix.
Karma: Good, or bust!
Here's what I was able to find on their web site...
- The Dewey system is constantly evolving. This is not like a copyright on an old text, this is more lika the copyright on a piece of software.
- I was unable to find any licensing policies, but was able to see that a yearly subscription to the web version of their system(as opposed to buying a $475 book that they update every 7 years) was around $500.
- They have some interesting OAI hooks into the dewey system for your perusal (OAI servers, etc). It's all Open, by the way.
- I have an email in to DeweyLicensing@oclc.org asking them about this... I'll post a followup if I hear back.
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
That's not an LOC issue; it's a "MY BOOKS, MINE! MINE!!" issue among university departments. [g] Seriously, what they should have done was what my university did: some books in a particular LOC range were in separate reference libraries, so there was a sign (chart and map) over the LOC paper catalog that told you which catalog ranges were in what building, or even in which section of the main library. That made it very easy to tell where to go after you'd looked up the desired books, rather than learning you were in the wrong building only after you got there.
Conversely, there's no reason that a DDC library can't be in multiple buildings, where you only learn that the 62* and 59* categories are in the Biology building AFTER you trot all over the main library looking for 'em.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
What's the Dewey number for porn?
Whoops - they actually tell you: 800.001.
That's gotta be a great come on line for those sexy-looking librarians: "Hey babe, interested in some 800.001?"
Except that she'll probably come back with "Only in your 800.005."
a world in progress...
Since the created of DDC1 was an advocate of spelling reform, they should properly honor his notions and use the name as he spelled it : Melvil Dui
If the catalog was smart enough, it could know what building you were searching from, and flag those records in your building and another building differently.
Its a cute hotel. My room was full of cool technology related books.
There appeared to be somesort of network connectivity in the rooms, but of course I forgot my laptop...
Seriously. My wife is a librarian, and was quite enthralled with the hotel -- until she actually looked at the list of rooms. The DDC numbers are not correct. For example:
General Knowledge is 000, not 1000.
Philosophy is 100, not 1100.
Religion is 200, not 1200.
Biography is not 900.006, it's 920.
Computers are 004, not 600.005.
If pornography has a classification, it is definately not 800.001.
The major classifications are close, but all the subclassifications are completely incorrect. I know this sounds like nitpicking crap, but librarians are more anal about their classification systems than geeks are about Linux kernals.
-------------------------------------------------
It's trademarked, and there is a problem because they are using the Dewey Decimal System name in their advertising [citysearch.com] without permission.
Problem is, the trademark is for "IC 016. US 038. G & S: Periodical Publication-Namely, an Index Relating to a System of Classifying the Field of Human Knowledge. FIRST"..
A hotel is not a publication. Unless I'm mistaken. In which case you sir, are a bookworm.
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
Hotels in protest of losing the patent infringment
with their numbering system, choose to open law
suits against aparment, condominium and town
house complexes. They might have a problem with
the town houses, but there is money to be made
with abusing the legal system.
The ability to sue anyone is legalized extortion.
Erm... That link is to CitySearch's editorial review. I don't see any reason to believe it was written by the hotel itself.
Searching is not the only application to consider here. By organizing the books hierarchically, you allow a user who is looking for a certain piece of information (rather than a certain book) to browse all books on the subjectwithout having to wander all over the place. Even if books on the subject are split into two or three areas (as in your example), it is vastly more convenient than hunting down every single book by author.
So they patented those numbers, huh?
Unfortunately for them, MicroSoft has patented ones and zeroes.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
"Dui" has too much of a connection with drunkenness.
Will I retire or break 10K?
...it's horrible anyways. lets just add more decimal digits for any possible expansion we need!
IIRC book in the French national library are shelved by size. The backdraw of course is that browsing is impossible. The shelves aren't accessible by public anyways. You give the catalog numbers at the desk and get the books one hour later... Seems the need to save space got more pressing than the need for public browsing.
bickerdyke
The original 1870 work, minus title, is wholly and unambiguously in the public domain. That much is certain.
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ22.html#public
Trademark is admittedly a different story. Had they called it the "Dewey Decimal Hotel, LLP" or actually sold copies for an index of their own under that name, I'd be swayed to the "open and shut case" they're harping about. Merely mentioning the name and ostensibly using a public domain version doesn't seem so "open and shut" else Ford would be slammed by Daimler-Chrysler for for repeatedly mentioning the Mercedes mark in their annual reports.
There's an interesting article about the vagueries of establishing trademark infringement damages here:
http://techlawadvisor.com/wires/ip.html/a.
I think all the "jeez, they're try to license X next" posts kind of miss the point. The people who own Dewey aren't just selling a taxonomy. They're selling a process for mapping the subject matter of a book onto that taxonomy. Which they can't do if they let the taxonomy enter the public domain. So as silly as sounds, they have no choice but to sue anybody who uses the system without paying for it. Even if it's a hotel just trying to be clever.
They own the trademark on Dewey Decimal System and other words. They manage the numbering system. The actual numbering system can be used by anybody, although businesses (not public libraries) may need to pay roalties based on their uses of the system.
I never knew so many /. posters were so ignorant of trademark, service marks, patants, and copyright distinctions.
They can claim trademark violations because they are using the marks owned by OCLC without permission. It would be like some no-name snack company naming their products "Twinkies" and "Ding-Dongs". Now I'm off to paste this to all the others who don't bother to understand the law before spouting off about how bad it is.
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
I never knew so many /. posters were so ignorant of trademark, service marks, patants, and copyright distinctions. OCLC's law suit is the right action for them to take, if you understand the way the laws work.
They can claim trademark violations because the hotel is using the marks owned by OCLC without permission. It would be like some no-name snack company naming their products "Twinkies" and "Ding-Dongs". Now I'm off to paste this to all the others who don't bother to understand the law before spouting off about how bad it is.
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
(Which one of you fucktards moderated this up as "insightful"?)
Read the article. Christ, read the freaking four-sentence blurb. Pay careful attention to the words "for trademark infringement". A trademark is not copyright, and trademark is not a patent. As long as you play by the trademark rules, a trademark is forever. It does not expire, it does not lapse, it does not go into the public domain.
Their attorney says, "A person who came to their Web site and looked at the way (the hotel) is promoted and marketed would think they were passing themselves off as connected with the owner of the Dewey Decimal Classification system."
Actually, no normal person would assume that ANYTHING that has been in use for more than 125 years would still be proprietary. To regard such bizarre thinking as normal, and to be able to say something like that with a straight face, you have to go to law school.
Hey bud, what happened to your 'responsibility' campaign pledge? I have yet to see one thing that has gone wrong that you Fox news clones have not blamed Clinton for. If Clinton is to blame for todays ecconomy then how come he gets absolutely no credit for 1992-2000? Yeah and Bush's tax cuts for the richest of the rich are fair and across the board the way that Fox news is Fair and Balanced.
When a war starts taxes go up sooner or later. That is why starting wars is a really bad move if you want to keep taxes low. As Sun Tzu said feeding an army of a hundred thousand men will cost a thousand gold pieces every day.
Tax cuts that are aimed primarily at the richest of the rich do not have a stimulative effect on the economy. The bulk of the tax package that Bush asked for and got kicks in in future years. Yep, the deficit is half a trillion and set to grow.
Only the deficit ain't going to grow because the failure in the Whitehouse has screwed up both the war and the economy and will shortly be sent back to Texas with his 'hooked on phonics' package. Taxes will then rise back to what they were before, plus some extra to make up for the trillion dollars of waste created by Bush.
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It's not just about the system. It's about the work of classifying books into the categories and coming up with new categories. That takes effort, you know.
Furthermore, this is about trademark infringements. Trademarks last as long as you pay the fees for.
Just for comparision, a certain dark-coloured caffineated beverage was first patented and trademarked in 1887, but I don't see anyone saying that the recipe for the original CocaCola should be made public, or the current one (which was settled down in the 1920s).
"Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
Looks like the "dewey decimal system" is a trademark, but isn't the system itself public domain. It was invented in 1876. Evreything before the mid-20s is in the piblic domain.
I believe the system IS public domain, but the term "Dewey Decimal System" is a trademark. They are using that term to advertise. They probably could have got away with using the system ut calling it "the Generic Library Organizing System." That would be legal, I think. Trademarks do not bcome public domain.
That said, I think it still stands. The Dewey Decimal System refers to a hierarchical filing system for books in libraries, and was apparently devised without any intent of anything pertaining to it being proprietary, and as such I think it's a damn shame an individual organization owns it and can extract royalties (and damages, in cases of "infringement") for use of the name. It's simply ridiculous that anything of such basic utility to the general public, and consisting of simply a name and a practice associated with it, be beholden to some private company even after 130 years. Yes, I'm aware the company actually goes through many thousands of books each year to assign DD numbers to them and otherwise invests a lot in maintaining the DD system, and as such needs some source of compensation for its efforts, but surely there can be some better way of doing things than this, can't there?
was a bit of a shock to me when I got to ANU and found I had to learn a whole ne classification system as I knew my Dewey well.
Ah well - QA was most of what I needed.
The Singularity is closer than you think
Quant
The biggest problems would be building the initial list, and picking the person to maintain the list. It would be a problem if someone decided to fork the project though.
Unlike patents, there is NO equivalent to prior art when it comes to trademark. Anyone can, at anytime, register a trademark on the most mundane thing or obvious thing. Trademarks -- unlike copyright and patents -- do not expire. It's the one thing that "creators" can be said to continuously own. An interesting application of this concept is the case of Tarzan. Created by Edgar Rice Burroughs in 1912, the work itself is now in the public domain. HOWEVER, Burroughs also had the forethought to register Tarzan as a trademark. That means a couple of things: 1) anyone can make a film adaptation of Tarzan of the Apes without having to pay money to the Burroughs estate; 2) no one can create *new* stories featuring the trademark protected character of Tarzan without they are licensed by same said Burroughs estate. The heirs of Conan Doyle were exceptionally displeased with things like Without a Clue and the Sherlock Holmes related stories on Star Trek: TNG, but since they had no legal protection, there wasn't a whole lot they could do about it. Now, this begs an interesting question -- how is it, exactly, that the Doyle estate (or anyone else) could not (or cannot) register Holmes and Watson as a trademark, but Forest Press could register "Dewey Decimal Classification" some 31 years after the death of Melvil Dewey, and almost 100 years after its creation? I haven't a clue...
check out the DDCS trademark filing.
Well, it's highly likely the original recipe (the one with the cocaine in it) has already been leaked; certainly, there is a contender for it.
But you couldn't sell the beverage as CocaCola if you wanted to, because of the trademark. In the same way, you can't use the Dewey Decimal System and call it that (the way the hotel in question did) because of the trademark.
"Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
Thanks for the enlightenment. I was aware that this was a trademark issue, though. I only used `patented' because that's what the The Onion article uses. I thought the ability to have any rights to (IMO) very common _words_ is so ridiculous that I didn't even bother to make a serious post.
Cheers!
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Okay, try it. Try author = Williiam Smith. LOC lists 25 authors by that name. How do you want to put those in order so people can distinguish one William Smith from another William Smith?
What's to stop one or more of these authors also having been published as "Bill Smith". Or maybe the the one you want was only ever known to his publishers as "Bill".
I went Googling for the Dewey Decimal System, and since it was being slow, I decided to do some Hoovering because my house was dirty. All the dust it threw up made me sneeze so I reached for a Kleenex. After that I came back to my computer to find I had gotten a bunch more Spam in my email account.
:)
Now sue me companies, first one gets full publicity on Slashdot!!
The lawyers sueing have obviously come from the 001.9 section of the library.... of the bottom feeding kind!
It's high time the world rid itself of IP. It's a cancer that threatens to destroy the progression of the arts and sciences forever.
Visceral Psyche Films
The DDC is such a pain in the ass when you're used to LOC....But personally I find the DDC obnoxious"
This is like saying "The (OS I hate) is a pain in the ass when you're used to (OS I love) .. but personally I find the (OS I hate) obnoxious". Back up with facts. Come on, even the OS-war emails on slashdot at least say "I hate Windows because of disfunction X, Y, Z".
At least back up your point of view with some facts, tell us about the differences in the schemes, why one is more preferable to the other.
Damn, Mr Dewey was definitely on to something. Who would've thought the categody 133.7 is fraud"?
You can't shut us down! The Internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas!
Oh, certainly the OCLC - Library Hotel case described in the Article concerns a Trademark dispute, and certainly there would be a significantly smaller number of posts here on
However, I was attempting (perhaps misguidedly, in view of the overwhelming confusion between these distinct forms of protection, but anyway...) to provide a response to the specific comment: because there seemed to be a misapprehension that the DDC had been set in stone 130 years ago, which rather failed to give any credit for the ongoing work on the scheme.
tomV
...just use the Fry-kun's hexadecimal filing system... :P
Did you know that "FTW" ("for the win") is a direct translation of "Sieg Heil"?
Yes it is. It presents both sides, and is centrist. Those who believe that the news should be left-wing only are rather outraged, and clammor for the censorship of it.
People will think that I am paying you to make these softballs.
The only censorship that has been going on is Bill O'Reilly going to court to supress Al Franken's book about him, appropriately titles Lies and the Lying Liars who tell them. Bill O'Reilly really does not want people to know that he lied about having a Peabody award and then lied about having lied.
But then again if you work for Fox news you must get so used to telling lies that telling the truth would become difficult.
Oh look, Al Franken still outselling O'Reilly on Amazon despite all those books he must have sold already having been number one for so many weeks. Looks like Murdoch hasn't being placing enough bulk orders.
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