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Game Retailers' Return Policies Criticized
Thanks to GamersWithJobs for their opinion piece discussing the allegedly harsh return policies for videogame retailers. According to the author, "There is no reasonable reason... why a [non-defective, but unwanted] product in such condition should not be returnable, and any retailer who refuses such should not be burdened with customers or money." However, as a forum reply points out: "...if the policy on returns is too liberal, game stores will turn into free game rental outlets for people who don't want to pay for software." Have retailers been changing policies, and where does the balance lie on this subject?
I was about 13 years old, and bought Zelda: 4 Seasons (or something like that) for my Game Boy, I beat it in like 2 days and wondered why I had spent all that money.
So, I got my mom to take me back to K-Mart, presented my receipt and the game, in it's packaging, but obviously opened. They asked my reason for returning it and I simply told them I was unsatisfied with my purchase, they gave me my money back and that was that. I remember feeling quite good about myself on the ride home.
How things have changed...
Cloud City Digital: DVD Production at its cheapest/finest
If the box is not open, you can return it.
If it's not, you can exchange it for the exact same game.
There's a reason game studios release demo versions. If you like it, and it runs on your computer, buy it. Otherwise, caveat emptor.
...only give a replacement copy for defective games. Honestly, it's not that hard. There's plenty of other examples of the retail world of this working just fine. Otherwise, yeah, it's pretty much a free rental place. Don't like it? Rent the games from Gamefly, the Netflix of the gaming world. Doesn't help with PC games, but for any console games, it's really cool. As seen on Penny Arcade.
=Brian
There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, will not hate it.
Every store I've been to in the past.. oh.. five or six years has had a exchange-only-on-open-box policy, except on games like Everquest or Planetside where the box pretty much says no resale-- those games I can't return if the box has been opened since they can't rewrap the box and resell it.
I'm guessing that's pretty much the standard everywhere in the USA at the very least. It can be frustrating when you buy a complete dud...
Title of the next article: Game Players Piracy Policy Criticized
I don't think that retailers are very interested in being taken advantage of. If we stop pirating games, I am sure they will be quite willing to liberalize their return policy.
Would it be alright if I bought a book, read it, didn't like it, and returned it? The words are in my head-- I've consumed it, so can I return it? Can I vomit up a consumed cheeseburger and demand my money back from McDonald's?
I don't see that the retailers have a choice. You installed the game. You have the CD key. If the publisher didn't implement restrictive copyright protections (also whined about), then you have it and can continue to play it.
There's a rental industry. There are demos. What do you want, exactly?
Wait for the reviews, buy warily, and remember which companies screwed you with a bad title. Don't buy from them again.
#19845
If you pick up a used game, try it and hate it, return it within 7 days for a full refund. Of course if it is defective the same rule applies.
They do this with the console games at least. I'd buy a lot less games if this wasn't the policy.
For NEW games they'll buy it from you at a used price, which is ok (75-25% depending on the age of the game, and number of used copies), but it would be better if they would have the same policy of the used games for the new.
You can lose something that is loose, so tighten the loose item so you don't lose it.
Ive dropped some money on some really crappy games, and to be honest, I probably would have asked for a refund. Blood Wake for the X-Box for one example, I new within hours that I didnt want it, but was stuck with the purchase.
HMV in my area recently began their no-return policy on opened products to combat rampant burn & return customers (I am a good friend of the General Manager, who spoke of customers who repeatedly puchased 10+ cds to return the next weekend). Reasons like this justify these policies quite well in my opinion.
Lax return policies for games with online play can be a slap in the face for second round purchasers, imagine buying StarCraft or the like, just to get kicked off line frequently because your CD-Key is used elsewhere.
I think we are left with two equally distastefull alternatives.
- Exchanges only on defective merchandise, no refunds, no exceptions
- DRM Crusted software, store can confirm through online database that software has been removed from your system, and that you are no longer a rightfull owner.
paul reinheimer
Simple solution
You can return any game, for any reason but if it isn't for the same game (i.e. its a case of "I don't like it") You can only swap for a different game once, after that, your second title like it or not is yours no exchanges except in cases of defective games and even then it can only be for the same product.
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
If you open the real CD, you can't return the game. If you only open the demo, you can return the game. That way, if it doesn't work on your computer for some reason and you don't feel like waiting for the patches, you can return it.
Game stores could stop people from buying and returning games just to play the demos by providing extra demo CDs, or by giving store credit instead of cash in exchange for a returned game.
Of course, the problem is that it's up to the game publishers to implement this and who knows if they'd be up for it.
If you were so unsatisfied with the game that you returned it for a full refund, why did you finish it? Seems you enjoyed the product, and just didn't pay for it.
I fail to see the difference between your situation and going to a movie and afterwards ask for your money back because it was only 2 hours long.
On the other hand, I think it should be law that they demonstrate a game to you before you buy it.
Temple of Elemental Evil (Troika Studios/Infogrames). Infogrames is notorios for its copy protection (using SecuROM), which prevented plenty of players to enjoy games like Neverwinter Nights. ToEE doesn't fare much better; if I didn't have two computers, I wouldn't be able to play it as the CD doesn't like my CD-RW drive.
Homeworld 2 (Sierra). Upon contacting Sierra tech support, I was told that it was my responsibility to get a compatible CD drive. All the hardware requirements on the box mention is a 16x CD-ROM, and not even the readme file mentions any other CD-ROM requirements. So how am I supposed to know whether my CD-ROM is compatible without opening the box and trying to install the game?
I have pretty much stopped buying new games, limiting myself to independent titles downloadable from the Internet and the occassional adventure from The Adventure Comnpany. As such, I can talk only about these two recent examples. However, there are many more instances when a game doesn't run at the stated hardware requirements. That is something one can find out only by opening the box and installing the game. In such a case, your solution would simply lock gamers into an endless cycle where they are unable to return a game that doesn't work.
See, I used to go to the mall twice a week to "buy" new underwear. I originally bought a three-pack of cotton briefs. Well, I took them home and wore them and even left some small stains. I wasn't happy with the product so naturally I returned it. I did this again and again. The store had a liberal return policy and I got away with it for a while. Then one day they changed their policy. This made me furious. I am obviously entitled to return any product no matter the basis for my "disatisfaction" and even if I used it, right? Well, they changed their policy anyway. I didn't buy any new underwear for a while out of protest, even using underwear my friend had purchased and was no longer using. Soon, however, I realized that I actually liked having own new underwear and that I myself was to blame for the change in policy.
The lesson I learned was about misdirected hostility. It wasn't the stores fault they had to change their policy, it was mine for crapping in their product and demanding my money back. Maybe we should be mad at the people who abused the generous policy instead of the stores who are just trying to run a business. This would entail looking around and in the mirror though, which is much less pleasent than shouting bad words at the sky cursing "them."
Everyone keeps saying to try out the demo, but if the demo works that's no guarantee the game works--especially since copy protective CD-checks are getting more draconian and obscure as well (obscure as in not working properly with all hardware). Unreal Tournament 2003 is an example that comes to mind--I played the demo, I bought the game, game does not work. It think a patch fixed the problem eventually--but it seems to me I should have been perfectly justified in returning the product immediately for a full refund (or store credit at least), open box or no open box.
Gamestop (which I guess is the same corporate empire as Software Etc.) used to have an insanely liberal return policy as late as last year--a salesman actually encouraged me to try a game and return it if I didn't like it the next day.
I would like to reiterate some of the bold parts, paraphrased. If you dont like it, you can reject it. If you dont reject it but it doesnt conform to your expectations, you can revoke your acceptance. If you do either of those then not only are you entitled to recover whatever of the price you have paid, but you also have the nifty option of buying a replacement and having the original seller reimburse you for the difference in cost. That last part applies less so to games than to office software, but a perfect example would be Tax software. You need it and you need it TODAY, so if the software you get doesnt meet the expectations set forth then you have the option of getting a replacement elsewhere at the seller's expense.
PS: 90% of slashdot readers qualify as a Merchant Buyer with regards to purchasing software, which adds a few more really juicy options that take a lot more reading to get into. I leave that as an excercise for the reader.
BTW, no, I am not one of those anti-P2P people. I just think that it would be a pretty bad move to sell people products that can be copied, and then take it back as a return.
If people think that $50 is too much to risk on a game they know little about then they need to either a) start paying attention and gathering information before purchasing, b) wait for games to decrease in price, or c) stop buying video games altogether.
I have worked retail for many years. The buyer has no automatic right of return: the rights vary from state to state.
The Attorney General's webpage for your respective state will usually provide you with the most accurate information.
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
The real issue at the core of this matter (for me) is that gamers can not get their hands on a game conveniently enough to find out if it's a worthy purchase or not. I live in Downtown San Jose California, a very technically oriented and gamer friendly environment. However it is so nearly *impossible* for me to conveniently get my hands on a game before buying that I have nearly axed my game purchasing all together.
I used to have the wonderful habit of running to Software Etc to check out a new game. Their return policy of "return within 7 days opened or not" was perfect for checking out a new title I wasn't sure about. The only requirement was that you had to keep the game in mint condition. More often than not (due to the large amount of crap games of late), I would return the title to the store, no questions asked, and no money lost. Once in a while i would find a true gem, and I would keep my purchase (or if I found the employees of a particular store to be outright rude, return it and go buy it at the local EB instead).
Regardless, those days recently ended. Software Etc. ceased allowing gamers to return their purchases citing a lawsuit from someone unpleased about being sold an opened game (which information is nearly never made available to the buyer, but most likely because of the "mint condition returns" policy in the first place). From what I understand, EB has ceased to allow open returns as well.
For a gamer on a shoestring budget, this was indeed the beginning of dark times.
For my PC games I turned to downloaded demos. As many have said before me this is hardly ever a reflection of the final product, and is unreliable at best, but still convenient considering I can sit at my desk and pull the game offline right there. However, not all games receive a demo. For those select few I am out of luck, many of which I would die to try out as well, so it breaks my heart to see them pass me buy with no way of getting my hands on them.
For my console fix I turned to rentals; a highly overpriced way of sampling entertainment. Thought it could be said that I am allowed to complete the rented title and rid myself of it with no strings attached, I like to collect games that I find worth keeping, so this route isn't for everyone. Namely people who want to own the titles and play them more than once.
But, despite the insane pricetag my local Blockbuster charges, at least I have access to the console games I desire before I lay down a larger chunk of change to own one or two. But this is not always the case. A staggeringly 9 times out of 10 the video store doesn't get the title in at all! This causes me no end of frustration, especially being someone who enjoys more obscure, less popular titles.
So there goes that solution.
Recently Gamefly.com was brought to my attention, the description of which immediately brought me great hope! However the same problems with Blockbuster plague this new service on a larger level. Call me cheap, but I am not about to lay down $20 a month to rent games, despite being able to have 2 at a time, as well as keep them as long as I want. This is mainly a time issue, since I work full time and attend night classes on the side. The entertainment-to-money ratio is simply not worth either my time or money. I can't play 2 games at once, and I'm lucky if I get halfway through one per month at all. Recently it's been even less (roughly 5 or less hours of gaming a week). Despite this, I was still considering it due to their sweet deal allowing me to keep a rented game by simply paying it's used price. Digging more into this I uncovered another shock that ended my interest in this service. I looked up a recently favorite, semi-obscure title that can be currently picked up at the store for about $10 used. $30. No-Thank-You. I checked another $12 title. $35. That ruled out that option.
Now, one of my final answers, which is probably most peoples first solution: Online Reviews. I don't know how others fare in this regard
I like your idea, though it has a big problem. I'll take GBA games as an example. Nintendo ships demo roms of games. First level, or only one character selectable, however they want to cripple it.
In order for them to be accurate representations of the game, they either have to
a) give you read-only cartridges as demos. No electronic delivery, high-cost for them.
b) provide an emulator + rom download, thus expediting one of the two roadblocks to pure piracy (the emulator).
c) Give you a read-write cartridge, and a rom download. You play it in your GBA. This is effectively b, but it plays on the console instead of on your computer.
There is no cheap solution that does not encourage piracy in the case of the GBA.
For optical media, it's a bit easier. They can put demos on other game discs in the extra space, or ship whole demo discs (PS2 does this - the JamPack demo discs. Xbox has these too). These tend to runabout 9$ a pop.
But, they still won't let you download and burn demos to disc and run them. That would be one step closer to letting you download illegally ripped roms and playing them on unmodded hardware.
FWIW, I bet Xbox will be the first succesful case of electronically delivered console game demos. Live + hard drive means they can give you a game demo in a controlled manner that doesn't contribute to piracy. That's a good thing.
PS2 could do the same, provided they get a network set up. They have the hard-disk add on.
Nintendo could have done this with the GBA player. A Flash memory unit in the player, and a hook into the broadband adapter to populate it, then customers could download GBA-cart demos and play them on the tv.
I guess the point is use the trusted hardware that your target market already has to deliver the demos.
I overheard a clerk at GameStop explaining to a customer why their return policy is so great: you can return new games (with-in 7 days I believe he said) and they will give you your money back. Sounds great right? The problem is, they repackage the returned games at the store and re-sell them as new (after all, they are basically new, he said). Some people might not have a problem with this, but I sure do. If I'm paying for a brand new item, I want it to be BRAND NEW. If I didn't care, I would have picked up a used copy for less. Keep this in mind the next time you pick up your "brand new" copy of the latest release.
Given the trend of this discussion, I should know better than to post an unpopular viewpoint, but both sides deserve a fair hearing. Flame or mod as ye will.
I currently work for a well-known American computer retailer with a "draconian" return policy. Previously, I worked for several years as a manager of a similar store with a more liberal return policy. While I empathize with Elysium's viewpoint, my own experience tells me that such policies are necessary for a retailer to survive. A few points:
First, there are significant restrictions placed on retail stores by software manufacturers regarding their products. Many vendors will not allow opened boxes to be returned to them unless the product is defective, and a few will not accept returns at all. Some even mandate that the media and manuals be destroyed on return. Since it is illegal to repackage used or opened merchandise and sell it as new (and customer demand for opened boxes without big markdowns is extremely low), the retailers that I have worked for generally treat software returns the same way they do theft: adjust the item out of inventory and throw the box in the bailer.
Second, software piracy IS a huge problem. The article that began this discussion called this position "disengenous" and said that anyone who believed that these policies were designed to combat piracy was "more than naive". I beg to differ. A question for everyone in IT reading this: how long would it take you to get a free copy of Windows if you needed it?
I have overhead or had customers declare outright that they were going to burn and return software. I have seen staff members terminated for bootlegging software on store computers. I have seen every return scam you can imagine, and it is no way naive or disingenuous to suggest that these return policies are a measure against piracy.
(As an aside, the most popular return scam in my area is this. Buy a CD, burn it and/or copy down the key code, then scratch the disc. Return it to the store as defective, exchanging it for the same title in a sealed box. Return this one to another location for store credit. Lather, rinse, repeat. I see this daily).
Third, there are the bottom line considerations. The author of the original article stated that he did not care what the reasons were for these policies and that he intended to vote with his wallet in protest. Aside from the word of mouth Slashdot might generate, let's see how much that "vote" is worth.
Let's say Elysium finds a store worthy of his business - which is to say, a store that will take back any and all opened box software for exchange or refund. Being a hardcore gamer, let's say he spends $100 every week on software, generating five grand annually in total sales and (optimistically) $1000 profit. Let's also assume that a "burn and return" pirate also shops in this store. Pop quiz: how many zeroed-out copies of AutoCAD will it take to neutralize Elysium's vote? How many "unfit for sale" copies of Office and Photoshop will it take to completely disenfranchise him?
In closing, it is unfortunate that some retail salespeople treat honest, decent customers like criminals for trying to return software. At my store, we go to great lengths to explain the policy (and the reasons for it) to customers before they buy software and to offer options in case of problems (vendor tech support or money back guarantees, installation help from our tech department, and so on). There are federal laws demanding equal treatment of every customer, so our rules are rarely bent - lost business, while unfortunate, is better than termination and litigation.
I stand behind my employer on this issue... if you don't like it, then you can complain about me and the evil company I work for, or, more productively, you can support open source software, change the industry for the better, and make retail store policy a non-issue in your life.
Vanya's Law: "In any culture without irony, fart jokes will be the highest form of humor."
If a naked woman walks down a dark alley, should she expect to be safe?
Just as she would probably be fined for public indecency or some crap, anyone that took the oppurtunity to rape her would be imprisoned for rape.
You tell me, which is the worse crime?
As for copy protection, no console using standard formats is going to have strong copy protection forever. The lifespan of a console is just too long for that. While I never have owned a modded console, I've known a handful of people that do, and they get their games primarily from rental.
As for PC games, most of the people I know like to play PC games online, so copying just doesn't happen (because of the fairly universal methods of locking out multiple users of a CD Key). The problem, though, is that many of the copy protection schemes break functionality for legitimate users, while anyone that really wants to copy the disc eventually (usually within days) can (hey, I've used plenty of no-CD cracks for games I only wanted to use offline, but I have the original CDs, too).
Still, every publisher and developer expects a reasonable number of purchases for a good, well-developed game. If their expectations are too high, they'll find that out, and adjust their budget for their next title or perish. The console developers and copy protection software developers will continue to do what they can to protect their investment, but in the long run the best they can hope for is limiting copying and pissing off as few customers as possible.
-PainKilleR-[CE]