Slashdot Mirror
Mac OS X replacing Linux at Tokyo University
TekkaDon writes "At least 1,150 desktop and server PCs running Linux will be replaced with Mac OS X computers at the University of Tokyo next year, as reported by Asahi (Japanese), and echoed by MacRumors.com. 'Ease of maintenance and software installation were cited among the reasons for the switch.' I wonder if Keitaro and Naru will get iMacs at Hinata as well."
Steve 'Largo' Jobs: P0WNZ3D.
(ref)
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
I can't believe that someone would go bretreen Mac from Linux. Personally, I would welcome such a "switch" in the Dell-run hellhole where I work, but it seems like an unusual switch.
Most places grow Mac to Windrows or from Sun to Linux, but Mac from Linux big heap confusion! "Man bites dog" situation-I guess this is the scrap iron story of it all.
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
I think their "ease of maintenance" comment is going to come back and bite them on the ass in time. A well run Linux system with OS maintenance using RPM, debian's APT or Gentoo's ports is going to be a lot cleaner system in 12 months than an OSX machine. I can see alot of benefits to OSX on the user side, but OSX's woeful package maintenance is going to lead to pretty untidy systems that'll need full reinstalls in under a year, IMHO. There's just no central tracking of WHAT is on each machine.
...imagine the size of the discount that made this move cost-justified.
-=Maggie Leber=-
All your Linux are belong to us!
A Multiplayer Strategy Game for Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux
Will you buy me 1500 Imacs? I wouldn't complain or make bad jokes about it.
puts ("Python r0cks\n");
This is great news. I'm so proud of my little Apple head.... we're coming back with a vengeance!.
Used to be they laughed at Macs over yonder. I wonder if this is an indication of changing perspectives. I admit I don't keep up with Japan's current events, so maybe this isn't such a new perspective after all.
PS: Love Hina sucks. But hey, what can I do. it's doomed to be sucky since it's anime. :(
Oooo, if I had any moderator points left...
This kind of thing is probably why Apple is one of the few computer companies making a profit these days: so many universities are changing, who needs the housewives' money?
--- Egads, I glow in the dark!
Hey don't you threaten me!
I had to SUFFER so much just because I was born in an anime series!
If I lived on reality, I could have had normal life, but living in the twisted, infernal reality of Love Hina really, really sucks. I only wanted to have fun with Naru, but the directors won't let me sleep with her. "You can't do that!" they say, "all the sexual tension will be gone from the series once you get to sleep with her, and the rating will drop". I tell them that J.D had sex with Elliot and it didn't lead to the cancelling of Scrubs, but that doesn't help. They keep bringing me all those strange girls (Mutsumi-san or that crazy step sister of mine) who pop up the minute I try kissing Naru.. grr........
I hate anime!!!
How easy is to install Photoshop via RPM?
Office via Gentoo?
Final Cut or any iApp via curl?
Let me guess, Gimp would solve my first question... cough..cough...
not. Did anyone ever think that part of the reason why they switched is because of the lack of quality commerical software on linux?
I have never seen what tools there are for Mac networks but I am a little surprised that they are well developed enough that this decision was made. This tells linux developers (and distros) what they have to concentrate on to improve the adoption of linux. Up2date is OK as a replacement for "Windows Update" but it doesn't quite rise to the level of a solution for wide spread site management. Apt-get, urpmi, they all could do with a little work to make a real turn key solution for large scale management. I know a lot of people would say cron+(up2date/urpmi/apt-get)==instant site update, but I think some managers need a clearer path, like "Suse Update Sever(tm) version 1.2". Spending money on a clue is sometimes more comforting than thinking.
Insert pithy comment here.
"Oooo, if I had any moderator points left..."
;)
glad to have been of service
CMYK. Plugins. Prepress. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
This isn't that uncommon anymore. At a recent O"Reilly conference, most of the laptops were PowerBooks. Even our fearless leader CmdrTaco owns one. Apple's share of the laptop market has soared from 5% to 7% - that doesn't seem like much, but in percentage terms that's a 40% jump.
Back in the late 90s I was using a mixed network with SGI for web development, some Linux, and a Windows machine to run commercial software such as Photoshop.
Then I struck out on my own for a while, and for financial reasons I used Linux for my own stuff and Windows because clients demanded it. (I still really liked the SGI GUI design a lot more).
An interest in video production and editing got me my first Mac in 1998, a beige G3/266. I upgraded to a G4/450 dual processor in 2000. I found MacOS 9 very appealing, but since it didn't run emacs, it could not be my primary development machine.
When MacOS X came out, I started switching all my personal computing to MacOS X, because I loved the look and feel of it, and it still ran all my web software developed for Linux. At that point, I could do all the development I would ever need on one machine. I was sold on the Mac environment at that point.
When I switched jobs in 2000 to a company that let me develop web software for Linux, it looked like my situation was pretty stable. But in 2003, after one too many security breaches, I got the okay to switch our web system from Linux to MacOS X.
To bring us bang up to date, I took delivery of my personal G5/2ghz dual processor machine last Wednesday. Wonderful system.
Of all the operating systems and environments I've used, from Sun and SGI to every version of Windows imaginable (most of them, of course, better left unimagined), MacOS X is by far the best. It's lovely to look at without tweaking, it has a designer flair that's extremely appealing, and it runs all the software I could ever need (Unix + Macintosh).
I'm not saying it's flawless; nothing is. But it's the closest thing I've seen yet, and I don't see any major threats to it as the best designed and conceived operating environment around.
Hope that helps.
D
That hardly seems surprising.
Everytime I see a personal computer in any Japanese media (TV, film, etc) that isn't SciFi, it's a Mac, and always has been.
Ofcourse it's still Unix, BSD...
So... it's just a horizontal shift, instead of a jump into the jaws of Microsoft.
But on the Mac, it's built-in and working by default. On all Macs running OS X, not just ones running the special localized version of the OS, which used to trail U.S. releases by six months or more back in the System 7 days.
Any chance that's got something to do with the switch? Meanwhile, I'm looking long-term to replace my last Linux box with OS X. Right now the main obstacle is to get the equivalent of IP Masquerading working with a proper DHCP server that lets me configure fixed IP assignments, instead of the one built into "Internet Sharing".
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Why mod parent as troll?
How easy is it to install applications that don't belong on that os anyway ?
eg.
How easy is it to install trillian on mac os X ?
I'd have expected more from a native of Comber.
Shame on you.
I think you may need to be careful with your mud slinging.
"Another Mac User talking crap", like, CmdrTaco, Moshe Bar, James Gosling? All Mac users talking crap?
Sure, it's a bit of a blow for Linux adoption and a big plus for Mac OS X adoption but frankly I don't see a conflict here. If you would spend more time convincing people on Windows to go to Linux then wouldn't we all be in a better place.
GIMP is a great app - for the price. I've been using it for years but it is laughable to compare it to Photoshop. It's only comparable if you're not a designer. The tools in Photoshop are award-wnning as well as light-years ahead of GIMP. I use GIMP but, for a second here, can we be realistic. I personally don't use Photoshop for day to day image retouching (why use a 500 quid piece of software when a free one will do) but Photoshop is more than just an image retouching app.
As for quality of software. Some open source software is without par. We see them being used every day. Some of it is simply best of class. Some of it, on the other hand, bites.
Tokyo University switched because Macs are easier to maintain. The University of Virginia used G5s running Mac OS X because the Linux software "wasn't there yet". For these cases it doesn't mean you have to stop using Linux so stop being so defensive.
And if you had ANY conviction in your statement, you'd not be an Anonymous Coward.
Put it this way: your average consumer would only usually be looking for price, compatibility, and performance.
On the other hand, organisations, or other people who rely on computers or who use them regularly for relatively nerdy purposes (software designers, or universities, in this case) would be looking beyond what your average person would see.
Perhaps that explains Apple's success in the educational market: for universities and schools, a little cost goes a long way, especially where multimedia is involved!
BTW - According to this article, most Sun Microsystems employess own macs, if not for work, but at home. Your average consumer either wouldn't have enough experience with a mac to make a good decision, or else wouldn't have the need for a mac in the first place. These guys are smart :)
--- Egads, I glow in the dark!
Hopefully this will mark the start of a number of educational institutions and enterprises making the shift from MS, then Linux, to the beauty of OS X.
Bring on Ford and the city of Hamburg, once they realise that there is a system which carries the power of *nix, but doesn't need as much fiddling as Linux (unless you really want it to).
There is a course at one of the Universities in Western Australia which hands out iPods to the students, for them to store their course work on them. And who could forget the G5 based supercomputer at Virginia Tech.
The more vocal the complaints get against the Microsoft monopoly, the more chances that the other platforms get, so the future looks good.
InfoSec that matters, when it counts.
Did anyone ever think that part of the reason why they switched is because of the lack of quality commerical software on linux?
Why did you (try to) include the word "commercial" in that sentence?
Not too shabby, from a sales point of view.
--- Egads, I glow in the dark!
That won't help you much if the app happens to be compiled for Windows/x86.
Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.
Pretty tough to install something that doesn't come as an RPM, dpkg, tarball, or whatever. But since you brought it up it is extremely to maintain thousands of machines based on those package management systems. Is it is easy with Mac OS X? I mean it is all very well that you can simply click on this and drag and drop to that... but do you want to have to visit ever single machine? Is there a remote package management system for Mac OS X that does not require visiting each machine or rdesking to each machine?
Incidentally, MS-Office and Photoshop run just fine on Linux using Codeweavers Crossover Office (http://www.codeweavers.com).
If you must have an iApp you must have a Mac. But how does one upgrade, say, iTunes on 1100+ Macs spread out over a large campus in less than 5 minutes? (I can (and do) upgrade applications in Linux this way).
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/
Umm... rdesktop == remotedesktop
I use it. It is nice and all but it does not compare with the tools I have in Linux (and other Unices) so far.
For me to update 1 or 10,000 machines all I need to do is drop an RPM in a folder.... done.
*If the clients are turned on they will automatically update.
*If they are off (and I don't mean "sleeping") they will automatically be turned on and update and then shutdown.
*If they are laptops they will update as soon as they connect to the LAN.
*I can install system upgrades (not just applications) without disturbing the users.
*I can install custom applications and custom applications to all machines or just to certain subsets.
*All of this is logged so I know which machines have what and when they got it.
*All the nasty RPM dependencies are automatically resolved per machine.
Can remotedesktop do the above?
When Mac OS X gets tools like http://freshmeat.net/projects/autoupdate/
I just might consider expanding its role where I work.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/workgroup.html
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Well nice of you to post the link to a tool I already use. I also used Macintosh Manager in earlier versions of Mac OS X server. Remember when Mac OS X server came with a little 30 page booklet and that was it for documentation? Now they have a 700 page manual which seems to mostly tell you to go to other pages in the manual. Ours is well thumbed.
I am familiar with the tools that are available from Apple for managing their servers. Apple is just now getting up to speed with these tools that have been available on Linux for quite some time.
They have only recently added some of the features that we have had in Linux and other Unices for years. For example: adding a large number of users and groups from plain flat text files. Used to have to click and click and click... for each damn user.
If you have any experience doing server administration for a large number of users and groups you would know that the key is planning. The actual setup and running of the servers is pretty minor (given the right tools) compared to the planning stage.
I like Mac OS X, I use Mac OS X... in my opinion based on my experience it is not yet up to the same scalability and flexibility as Linux for servers and clients. It looks nice and has some nice apps and is getting there with the tools.
Incidentally... before someone pastes me ANOTHER link to something I already know about... or says something about a nice GUI interface for admin by someone with little training. I don't WANT someone to admin our servers with little training. I don't mind training them but I am not going to toss them in a room full of Xserves and tell them to set up a domain and whatnot. If you want GUI remote admin of Linux/Unix AND/OR Mac OS X there are already tools for that. See: http://www.webmin.com.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
When the next generation of 64bit PCs come out, will they switch back to the PC?
Price is one issue, Power is another, the G5 is good right now, perhaps the best right now, but in a year? in two years? On the hardware side I just don't think Apple can keep up.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Power is another, the G5^H^HIBM PowerPC 970 is good right now, perhaps the best right now, but in a year? in two years? On the hardware side I just don't think Apple^H^H^H^H^HIBM can keep up.
Doesn't sound so unlikely anymore, does it?
The days of the albatross named Motorola are over.
There is no step four.
You can run Gimp under Mac OS X. I do it as an amateur, and many professionals do it too. You can also run many other X11 applications. So you don't have to miss them. The advantage of OS X is the ease of maintenance, plus the many apps you *don't* get on Linux (Photoshop, MS Office, iApps). Again, if you prefer the Open Source alternatives to those apps, you can run them too, as mentioned before. You can't get around the fact that OS X is easier to install, upgrade, and maintain, though.
Emacs runs under MacOS. Last I looked there were two ports of GNU Emacs and one of Xemacs. Moot point now of course.
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these.
:)
Or maybe the university is going to create an older (G4) sibling of VT's 1100 G5 supercomputer.
There's been a lot of discussion about Linux being better.. OS X being better... what one can do on either platform.
The truth is, this shouldn't be an argument. First, it's unconstructive. Second, it's inherently wrong.
The truth is that Mac OS X wouldn't exist without Unix, and all of us Mac users should be damn grateful to the Unix and even the Linux community as well as the entire open source community.
Xserve's a wonder, OS X Server is getting better all the time. But Linux has its place -- as does Windows (for now.....)
We all have a common goal. The spread of creativity and community work via open-source, and the improvement of enterprise, office, and home productivity with the best computers and operating systems in the world.
Unix gives OS X enterprise viability and a rock-solid foundation. OS X gives Unix commercial viability and longevity.
That's why there's an Apple section on Slashdot. That's why Apple went (semi-)open-source. That's why OS X is Unix and based on BSD. And that's why we're on the same team.
The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
Brickhouse is a great tool you can use for free (or pay $25 in honorware fee), and offers a nice GUI for setting up the routers and firewalls built into OS X. It hasn't been updated in years, but really doesn't need it. I'm sure there are others as well, give VersionTracker a search . . .
"I mean it is all very well that you can simply click on this and drag and drop to that... but do you want to have to visit ever single machine? Is there a remote package management system for Mac OS X that does not require visiting each machine or rdesking to each machine?"
These machines are described on the UofT website as being diskless. All apps will live on the servers and be run remotely. It's pretty easy to upgrade the apps when you're talking about a small group of servers instead of 1,149 terminals.
The statment "Mac OS X replacing Linux at Tokyo University" is misleading on so many levels, I won't even begin. The discussion has further degenerated around inaccurate speculation. Let's touch briefly on reality:
The University-wide system is described here.
The new system, which includes the Macs and is provided by NEC, is described here.
These are "located in the Information Education Buildings, the Information Technology Center, and the main library" (ref) to be used "for general computer literacy education and programing education".
16% of the terminals will be Windows-based for lectures using Windows or CAD applications. What they replace are a mix of Windows NT and X window terminals (they write "X-terminal", but presumably these are actually linux boxes, not really X terminals).
What this decidedly has nothing to do with is the systems used by scientists, scholars, administrators, and clerical staff at the University of Tokyo. Nor what might be used in other teaching settings. So, the idea that Univ of Tokyo once used Linux monolithiocally is as wrong as to think Linux was replaced by OS X monolithically. -Eric
Couldn't find a link to a UofT site that DOES describe it... do you have one handy?
Diskless would be a very new trick for the Mac... any more info on that?
Have you ever actaully used Netboot for more than a dozen machines? (for any machines?) When we tried it it sucked. Perhaps things have changed in the past year. If this were the case we could order our new Macs without HDDs. For TU that would save about US$100,000.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
Them: drunken frat boys, poli-sci or pre-law, with their noses stuck so high in the air 2 or 3 of them drown every time it rains. Once you get in, you have to really screw up not to get a degree in 4 years. They wear coat-and-tie to football games to watch their team lose.
Us: also drunken, but engineers and CS people. Once we get in, it's 4-5 years of professors actively working to fail us. Only the best make it out. We wear maroon and orange to watch our team win. And, oh yeah, we have a kickass supercomputer being built on-campus.
Go Hokies!
...people that speak out against 'established authority' sometimes get [NO CARRIER]
This Autoupdate is just a perl script that works with RPM. OS X has both perl and RPM. I can do better; Fink uses debs and has all of the tools you need to build your own debs, so all you really need to do is set up a local distribution point, and then put "apt-get update" in a cronjob on all your OS X clients to have them update themselves.
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but OS X is Unix. Anything that you can do with Linux you can also do with OS X, and usually with all of the same tools.
Urm... it is more than "just a perl script". There are perl modules that work with RPM which autoupdate makes use of. Autoupdate also works with ftp.redhat.com and any set of mirror sites you care to name... which allows autoupdate to grab the latest "official" versions of updates as soon as they become available. It will also check vendor, MD5sums, size, GPG, etc... on each package. Does Fink do that yet?
.dmg style software packages. Fink is fine (if clunky) for maintaining a Fink installation... but what about all the other software on the Mac OS X box?
In case you didn't catch it in my earlier posts... I USE OS X and have to support it for a large number of systems. I also use Fink and apt-get and dselect and whatnot on these systems. On one system I recently did a "fink self-update" and it took over 4 hours to complete. It also required some interaction from me at various points. Also, as far as I know, Fink does NOT download and install "official" updates from Apple nor regular
Yes... it is true that "OS X is Unix" but it is not also true that you can use all the same tools as with Linux with the same facility. For updating Mac OS X with packages from Apple you must use the Apple tools... for updating a Fink installation on a Mac OS X system you must use the Fink tools. These two "toolsets" have no common denominator, intersection, or shared data. They are exclusive and separate.
The specific advantage I get with autoupdate is that I can maintain a large number of systems of different types and versions... the entire system... with one single toolset.
Fink and Mac OS X are NOT THERE YET. Perhaps some day they will be... but not yet.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."