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Mac OS X replacing Linux at Tokyo University
TekkaDon writes "At least 1,150 desktop and server PCs running Linux will be replaced with Mac OS X computers at the University of Tokyo next year, as reported by Asahi (Japanese), and echoed by MacRumors.com. 'Ease of maintenance and software installation were cited among the reasons for the switch.' I wonder if Keitaro and Naru will get iMacs at Hinata as well."
Steve 'Largo' Jobs: P0WNZ3D.
(ref)
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
What's so odd? They are going from something difficult to manage to something a little bit easier to manage that looks more pretty.
After all - the way a computer looks is the most important thing - right?
Lower support costs, minimal migration fees or difficulties, and the liberal arts department can use it without having a heart attack. What's so strange?
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
...imagine the size of the discount that made this move cost-justified.
-=Maggie Leber=-
did you perhaps consider that such a big entity might utilize network attached storage? Firms who have 10 or more Mac client workstations usually has a server which stores the data. Client maintenance isn't really that complicated.
All your Linux are belong to us!
A Multiplayer Strategy Game for Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux
The machines will most likely be set up in labs by administrators. Regular users will only be able to install things into their home directories. Thus it will be impossible for them to clutter up the system.
As long as the admins are competent and keep track of what has been installed there shouldn't be any problem.
A Multiplayer Strategy Game for Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux
Well this is the direction of my Switching. DOS/Windows to Linux, Linux to Sun, Sun to Mac. After time I started to realize the importance of having you hardware well integrated and optimized for the Computer. After Running Threw DLL Hell with Windows, Then going threw the Libary Dependencies with Linux, Then again with Sun, except Sun worked with the hardware better, Macs are just a piece of cake.
So this progression for Japan is not that Odd. They were probably using Windows first and the instability viruses etc got on their nerves so they switch to Linux. Linux probably ran pretty good but they ordinary users were afraid to use linux. So OS X is a good combination of both.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Will you buy me 1500 Imacs? I wouldn't complain or make bad jokes about it.
puts ("Python r0cks\n");
Well Actually I found the Mac OS apps far easier to install and maintain then the others. Drag Icon to application folder, For most application. But for Japan I don't think updating tons of New files is an issue they probably have their set of application that they need. Most likely on a separate server. The east of maintenance is the fact there is no or little DLL Hell, different version of shared libraries causing conflicts or Dependancy problems. Less hassle install new hardware, Plug and play that actually works, Compared to Linux plug, compile and play. You have the unix command line when you need it and an excellent GUI for when you don't. I don't see them getting bitten anytime soon. They will probably save more money in the long run then with Linux.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
You should check out Radmind for Mac OS X. It won second place for Best Server Solution at Apple's Design Awards. While the underlying technology works for Linux (and Solaris), the wiz-bang GUI is only available for the Mac.
:w
How does Mac OSX actually handle shared libraries? Are they simply not used?
Ditto
Used to be they laughed at Macs over yonder. I wonder if this is an indication of changing perspectives. I admit I don't keep up with Japan's current events, so maybe this isn't such a new perspective after all.
PS: Love Hina sucks. But hey, what can I do. it's doomed to be sucky since it's anime. :(
Oooo, if I had any moderator points left...
This kind of thing is probably why Apple is one of the few computer companies making a profit these days: so many universities are changing, who needs the housewives' money?
--- Egads, I glow in the dark!
It depends what you're installing. Any Cocoa/Carbon application that uses libraries from there are already installed on the system. If you are going to use any other libraries, then BYO.
I think. (I haven't done the greatest deal of mac programming).
Woeful package maintenance? Given that the installation/uninstallation of most programs is as easy as dragging it to the folder you want or dragging it to the trash, I don't see how that could be "woeful." I admit though, that it does get a bit nastier when you've got applications that put things into /Library or ~/Library (or netbeans, which is a bitch and puts it in ~/.netbeans.
But it can't be any worse than my school's management of it's windows machines. It keeps track of installed software using (which is largely variant for no reason) using Access.
Hey don't you threaten me!
I had to SUFFER so much just because I was born in an anime series!
If I lived on reality, I could have had normal life, but living in the twisted, infernal reality of Love Hina really, really sucks. I only wanted to have fun with Naru, but the directors won't let me sleep with her. "You can't do that!" they say, "all the sexual tension will be gone from the series once you get to sleep with her, and the rating will drop". I tell them that J.D had sex with Elliot and it didn't lead to the cancelling of Scrubs, but that doesn't help. They keep bringing me all those strange girls (Mutsumi-san or that crazy step sister of mine) who pop up the minute I try kissing Naru.. grr........
I hate anime!!!
OS X certainly has plenty of shared libraries, but there might be a grain of truth to the "simply not used" idea. The library set included with the core OS is remarkably rich, so in many/most cases there really isn't a need to install more support for the program [heh, this is reminding me of Ken Olsen's comparison of Unix and VMS, but now OS X is the "it's all there" OS....]. When libraries do need to be installed, they tend to be things like codecs that in turn talk to an existing framework (QT in that case), so the damage is more or less localized and insulated.
Also, the Mac tends to have a "this kind of document is handled by this program" approach, and there does seem to be a bit more "call program X" than "hook into library Y" than you typically see on other platforms. Funny, that, since it's a mindset that Unix started with and kind of drifted away from.
This is all broad generalization, of course. I'm sure that if we all work diligently, OS X can have as messy a depencency hell as any other OS. But for now, most everyone seems to be content to keep breakage on Apple's OS release schedule.
As long as the admins are competent and keep track of what has been installed there shouldn't be any problem.
Just as there shouldn't be with Linux. My guess is the admins are not that great to begin with.
Shared libraries have evolved into entities called frameworks. A framework is a directory that conforms to a particular structure. It contains Mach-O shared binaries, header files, resources, and documentation. QuickTime is a framework, for example.
Third party developers are welcome to create and ship frameworks, but their use is discouraged. Disk space and RAM are cheaper than the labor involved in maintaining shared code.
Of course with Linux 90% of the user-base wouldn't be able to figure out how to install anything at all. Probably 50% would probably hate it because they can't use it for what they want like graphic design or MS Word.
I think this switch makes sense.
...And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." - Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
How easy is to install Photoshop via RPM?
Office via Gentoo?
Final Cut or any iApp via curl?
Let me guess, Gimp would solve my first question... cough..cough...
not. Did anyone ever think that part of the reason why they switched is because of the lack of quality commerical software on linux?
I have never seen what tools there are for Mac networks but I am a little surprised that they are well developed enough that this decision was made. This tells linux developers (and distros) what they have to concentrate on to improve the adoption of linux. Up2date is OK as a replacement for "Windows Update" but it doesn't quite rise to the level of a solution for wide spread site management. Apt-get, urpmi, they all could do with a little work to make a real turn key solution for large scale management. I know a lot of people would say cron+(up2date/urpmi/apt-get)==instant site update, but I think some managers need a clearer path, like "Suse Update Sever(tm) version 1.2". Spending money on a clue is sometimes more comforting than thinking.
Insert pithy comment here.
i've been getting into cocoa lately and discovering alot about mac programming in the process which is different from windows or *nix programming. on the mac, rolling your own library/control is extremely discouraged. as for the gui, it's due to the mac os l&f, as for the rest,1) there is little need, 2) if needed, keep all libraries static. if you get a chance to play with os x, control click on any application and you will get an option to show package contents. everything, from nibs (ui files), to libraries, to icons, will be there.
apple exerts far greater control over the os than linux due to the open nature, and microsoft due to their clusterfuck nature. that is why it "just works". it has both advantages and disadvantages. oh well.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
This isn't that uncommon anymore. At a recent O"Reilly conference, most of the laptops were PowerBooks. Even our fearless leader CmdrTaco owns one. Apple's share of the laptop market has soared from 5% to 7% - that doesn't seem like much, but in percentage terms that's a 40% jump.
Back in the late 90s I was using a mixed network with SGI for web development, some Linux, and a Windows machine to run commercial software such as Photoshop.
Then I struck out on my own for a while, and for financial reasons I used Linux for my own stuff and Windows because clients demanded it. (I still really liked the SGI GUI design a lot more).
An interest in video production and editing got me my first Mac in 1998, a beige G3/266. I upgraded to a G4/450 dual processor in 2000. I found MacOS 9 very appealing, but since it didn't run emacs, it could not be my primary development machine.
When MacOS X came out, I started switching all my personal computing to MacOS X, because I loved the look and feel of it, and it still ran all my web software developed for Linux. At that point, I could do all the development I would ever need on one machine. I was sold on the Mac environment at that point.
When I switched jobs in 2000 to a company that let me develop web software for Linux, it looked like my situation was pretty stable. But in 2003, after one too many security breaches, I got the okay to switch our web system from Linux to MacOS X.
To bring us bang up to date, I took delivery of my personal G5/2ghz dual processor machine last Wednesday. Wonderful system.
Of all the operating systems and environments I've used, from Sun and SGI to every version of Windows imaginable (most of them, of course, better left unimagined), MacOS X is by far the best. It's lovely to look at without tweaking, it has a designer flair that's extremely appealing, and it runs all the software I could ever need (Unix + Macintosh).
I'm not saying it's flawless; nothing is. But it's the closest thing I've seen yet, and I don't see any major threats to it as the best designed and conceived operating environment around.
Hope that helps.
D
I think that all those systems will be net booted and that maintenence will be simply patching the OS on the boot server as Apple relases updates.
Between netboot and having users that can't modify system resources, I don't see how any system would be corrupted or would become untidy over time.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Gimp != Photoshop*
*Understatement of year...
That hardly seems surprising.
Everytime I see a personal computer in any Japanese media (TV, film, etc) that isn't SciFi, it's a Mac, and always has been.
Ofcourse it's still Unix, BSD...
So... it's just a horizontal shift, instead of a jump into the jaws of Microsoft.
But on the Mac, it's built-in and working by default. On all Macs running OS X, not just ones running the special localized version of the OS, which used to trail U.S. releases by six months or more back in the System 7 days.
Any chance that's got something to do with the switch? Meanwhile, I'm looking long-term to replace my last Linux box with OS X. Right now the main obstacle is to get the equivalent of IP Masquerading working with a proper DHCP server that lets me configure fixed IP assignments, instead of the one built into "Internet Sharing".
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Whether or not the admins are any good is moot. Mac vs. Linux the admins will be the same. Mac vs. Linux the users are better off with macs. Thus the macs win.
A Multiplayer Strategy Game for Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux
How easy is it to install applications that don't belong on that os anyway ?
eg.
How easy is it to install trillian on mac os X ?
I'd have expected more from a native of Comber.
Shame on you.
I think you may need to be careful with your mud slinging.
"Another Mac User talking crap", like, CmdrTaco, Moshe Bar, James Gosling? All Mac users talking crap?
Sure, it's a bit of a blow for Linux adoption and a big plus for Mac OS X adoption but frankly I don't see a conflict here. If you would spend more time convincing people on Windows to go to Linux then wouldn't we all be in a better place.
GIMP is a great app - for the price. I've been using it for years but it is laughable to compare it to Photoshop. It's only comparable if you're not a designer. The tools in Photoshop are award-wnning as well as light-years ahead of GIMP. I use GIMP but, for a second here, can we be realistic. I personally don't use Photoshop for day to day image retouching (why use a 500 quid piece of software when a free one will do) but Photoshop is more than just an image retouching app.
As for quality of software. Some open source software is without par. We see them being used every day. Some of it is simply best of class. Some of it, on the other hand, bites.
Tokyo University switched because Macs are easier to maintain. The University of Virginia used G5s running Mac OS X because the Linux software "wasn't there yet". For these cases it doesn't mean you have to stop using Linux so stop being so defensive.
And if you had ANY conviction in your statement, you'd not be an Anonymous Coward.
Put it this way: your average consumer would only usually be looking for price, compatibility, and performance.
On the other hand, organisations, or other people who rely on computers or who use them regularly for relatively nerdy purposes (software designers, or universities, in this case) would be looking beyond what your average person would see.
Perhaps that explains Apple's success in the educational market: for universities and schools, a little cost goes a long way, especially where multimedia is involved!
BTW - According to this article, most Sun Microsystems employess own macs, if not for work, but at home. Your average consumer either wouldn't have enough experience with a mac to make a good decision, or else wouldn't have the need for a mac in the first place. These guys are smart :)
--- Egads, I glow in the dark!
Hopefully this will mark the start of a number of educational institutions and enterprises making the shift from MS, then Linux, to the beauty of OS X.
Bring on Ford and the city of Hamburg, once they realise that there is a system which carries the power of *nix, but doesn't need as much fiddling as Linux (unless you really want it to).
There is a course at one of the Universities in Western Australia which hands out iPods to the students, for them to store their course work on them. And who could forget the G5 based supercomputer at Virginia Tech.
The more vocal the complaints get against the Microsoft monopoly, the more chances that the other platforms get, so the future looks good.
InfoSec that matters, when it counts.
Not too shabby, from a sales point of view.
--- Egads, I glow in the dark!
Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.
That won't help you much if the app happens to be compiled for Windows/x86.
Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.
Pretty tough to install something that doesn't come as an RPM, dpkg, tarball, or whatever. But since you brought it up it is extremely to maintain thousands of machines based on those package management systems. Is it is easy with Mac OS X? I mean it is all very well that you can simply click on this and drag and drop to that... but do you want to have to visit ever single machine? Is there a remote package management system for Mac OS X that does not require visiting each machine or rdesking to each machine?
Incidentally, MS-Office and Photoshop run just fine on Linux using Codeweavers Crossover Office (http://www.codeweavers.com).
If you must have an iApp you must have a Mac. But how does one upgrade, say, iTunes on 1100+ Macs spread out over a large campus in less than 5 minutes? (I can (and do) upgrade applications in Linux this way).
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
Umm... rdesktop == remotedesktop
I use it. It is nice and all but it does not compare with the tools I have in Linux (and other Unices) so far.
For me to update 1 or 10,000 machines all I need to do is drop an RPM in a folder.... done.
*If the clients are turned on they will automatically update.
*If they are off (and I don't mean "sleeping") they will automatically be turned on and update and then shutdown.
*If they are laptops they will update as soon as they connect to the LAN.
*I can install system upgrades (not just applications) without disturbing the users.
*I can install custom applications and custom applications to all machines or just to certain subsets.
*All of this is logged so I know which machines have what and when they got it.
*All the nasty RPM dependencies are automatically resolved per machine.
Can remotedesktop do the above?
When Mac OS X gets tools like http://freshmeat.net/projects/autoupdate/
I just might consider expanding its role where I work.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
Well nice of you to post the link to a tool I already use. I also used Macintosh Manager in earlier versions of Mac OS X server. Remember when Mac OS X server came with a little 30 page booklet and that was it for documentation? Now they have a 700 page manual which seems to mostly tell you to go to other pages in the manual. Ours is well thumbed.
I am familiar with the tools that are available from Apple for managing their servers. Apple is just now getting up to speed with these tools that have been available on Linux for quite some time.
They have only recently added some of the features that we have had in Linux and other Unices for years. For example: adding a large number of users and groups from plain flat text files. Used to have to click and click and click... for each damn user.
If you have any experience doing server administration for a large number of users and groups you would know that the key is planning. The actual setup and running of the servers is pretty minor (given the right tools) compared to the planning stage.
I like Mac OS X, I use Mac OS X... in my opinion based on my experience it is not yet up to the same scalability and flexibility as Linux for servers and clients. It looks nice and has some nice apps and is getting there with the tools.
Incidentally... before someone pastes me ANOTHER link to something I already know about... or says something about a nice GUI interface for admin by someone with little training. I don't WANT someone to admin our servers with little training. I don't mind training them but I am not going to toss them in a room full of Xserves and tell them to set up a domain and whatnot. If you want GUI remote admin of Linux/Unix AND/OR Mac OS X there are already tools for that. See: http://www.webmin.com.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
There is no step four.
You can run Gimp under Mac OS X. I do it as an amateur, and many professionals do it too. You can also run many other X11 applications. So you don't have to miss them. The advantage of OS X is the ease of maintenance, plus the many apps you *don't* get on Linux (Photoshop, MS Office, iApps). Again, if you prefer the Open Source alternatives to those apps, you can run them too, as mentioned before. You can't get around the fact that OS X is easier to install, upgrade, and maintain, though.
The real question is: Who at University of Tokyo is affected by the change?
l ). A few scientists probably use windows as well as anyone doing GIS.
Certainly this has no affect on science faculty and research staff. Like the rest of the world, they already use a mix of super computers, Unix workstations, and Macs with a few linux boxes for those on shoe-string budgets (eg http://www.ccsr.u-tokyo.ac.jp/jsouchi/eindex.shtm
I'd hate to think that humanities faculty cannot choose their own platform, be it Mac, Windows, Unix, or Linux. I know of no major US university where faculty do not make their own purchasing decisions nor one that does not support both windows and Mac. Being forced to use as limited an environment as linux would be met with outrage among
American scholars. They must already be using a mix of Windows and Macs.
Thus, this change most certainly affects only clerical staff. In our research institute (JISAO) at the University of Washington, half of the clerical staff use macs and half use windows. Always have, always will. All the same software runs on both systems. The same servers do backups. Administatively, there appears to be no downside.
So, any single-system policy is draconian, whether it be windows only, Mac only, or linux only. There is no reason to cheer such a policy simply because, this time, it appeals to ones own computer parochialism.
-Eric
Emacs runs under MacOS. Last I looked there were two ports of GNU Emacs and one of Xemacs. Moot point now of course.
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these.
:)
Or maybe the university is going to create an older (G4) sibling of VT's 1100 G5 supercomputer.
There's been a lot of discussion about Linux being better.. OS X being better... what one can do on either platform.
The truth is, this shouldn't be an argument. First, it's unconstructive. Second, it's inherently wrong.
The truth is that Mac OS X wouldn't exist without Unix, and all of us Mac users should be damn grateful to the Unix and even the Linux community as well as the entire open source community.
Xserve's a wonder, OS X Server is getting better all the time. But Linux has its place -- as does Windows (for now.....)
We all have a common goal. The spread of creativity and community work via open-source, and the improvement of enterprise, office, and home productivity with the best computers and operating systems in the world.
Unix gives OS X enterprise viability and a rock-solid foundation. OS X gives Unix commercial viability and longevity.
That's why there's an Apple section on Slashdot. That's why Apple went (semi-)open-source. That's why OS X is Unix and based on BSD. And that's why we're on the same team.
The next comment I write will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
The statment "Mac OS X replacing Linux at Tokyo University" is misleading on so many levels, I won't even begin. The discussion has further degenerated around inaccurate speculation. Let's touch briefly on reality:
The University-wide system is described here.
The new system, which includes the Macs and is provided by NEC, is described here.
These are "located in the Information Education Buildings, the Information Technology Center, and the main library" (ref) to be used "for general computer literacy education and programing education".
16% of the terminals will be Windows-based for lectures using Windows or CAD applications. What they replace are a mix of Windows NT and X window terminals (they write "X-terminal", but presumably these are actually linux boxes, not really X terminals).
What this decidedly has nothing to do with is the systems used by scientists, scholars, administrators, and clerical staff at the University of Tokyo. Nor what might be used in other teaching settings. So, the idea that Univ of Tokyo once used Linux monolithiocally is as wrong as to think Linux was replaced by OS X monolithically. -Eric
Couldn't find a link to a UofT site that DOES describe it... do you have one handy?
Diskless would be a very new trick for the Mac... any more info on that?
Have you ever actaully used Netboot for more than a dozen machines? (for any machines?) When we tried it it sucked. Perhaps things have changed in the past year. If this were the case we could order our new Macs without HDDs. For TU that would save about US$100,000.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
Actually, I've found that the DHCP server used by Internet Sharing can use NetInfo to specify fixed IP assignments. Ironically, I may end up running OS X client on a server and OS X Server on my normal use machine (because it's my home file server, and I want arbitrary AFP mount points, dammit).
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Urm... it is more than "just a perl script". There are perl modules that work with RPM which autoupdate makes use of. Autoupdate also works with ftp.redhat.com and any set of mirror sites you care to name... which allows autoupdate to grab the latest "official" versions of updates as soon as they become available. It will also check vendor, MD5sums, size, GPG, etc... on each package. Does Fink do that yet?
.dmg style software packages. Fink is fine (if clunky) for maintaining a Fink installation... but what about all the other software on the Mac OS X box?
In case you didn't catch it in my earlier posts... I USE OS X and have to support it for a large number of systems. I also use Fink and apt-get and dselect and whatnot on these systems. On one system I recently did a "fink self-update" and it took over 4 hours to complete. It also required some interaction from me at various points. Also, as far as I know, Fink does NOT download and install "official" updates from Apple nor regular
Yes... it is true that "OS X is Unix" but it is not also true that you can use all the same tools as with Linux with the same facility. For updating Mac OS X with packages from Apple you must use the Apple tools... for updating a Fink installation on a Mac OS X system you must use the Fink tools. These two "toolsets" have no common denominator, intersection, or shared data. They are exclusive and separate.
The specific advantage I get with autoupdate is that I can maintain a large number of systems of different types and versions... the entire system... with one single toolset.
Fink and Mac OS X are NOT THERE YET. Perhaps some day they will be... but not yet.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."