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Have You Personally Used an Honest Head Hunter?
Haacked asks: "As a software manager, I've tried using recruiters and head hunters to find qualified employees. My experience is that used car salesman feel like paragons of integrity, in comparison. It seems their interests never lie with the job applicant, nor the company. However, I once read that some recruiters do act with integrity and actually care about the people they are trying to place. The book suggested finding a head hunter who is interested in a long term relationship with you (not for the commitment-phobic) and will serve more as a career counselor, attempting to find a position that meets your goals. Seems to me that establishing a long-term relationship with fewer as opposed to screwing people over in volume would make good business sense to garner repeat business. Have any of you ever worked with any firms you felt represented your interests well?"
A guy at the Ettain Group did his best for me, and wasn't upset when I chose a full-time job over the contract he offered me. But not knowing where you are, they may not be available to you.
-jls
Techno-pagan
Some headhunters work on retainer -- generally filling higher-level positions. They tend to put their client's interests first, because their compensation is already earned and because they work on a long-term basis. Others work on commission, filling a position for, say, 30% of the first-year salary. Many of these are, I understand, a bit less ethical.
When you speak with a headhunter trying to fill a position, just ask, "Are you on commission for this, or is it a retainer job?" You can learn a lot from that.
Yes, I've dealt with good recruiters, but they are few and far between. Ultimately, like car salesmen (and everyone else for that matter), they normally think about short term or immediate gains and not long term ones. Most won't trust, believe, or value a long term relationship if it means possibly losing a short term win.
Network with others to find these good recruiters, and, more importantly, find good candidates. Use your people's contacts/friends to find the candidates based on people that they've worked with in the past.
I've worked with a dozen or so head hunters. I've only me one I totally trusted. Good signs for a head-hunter:
1.) Works with you to establish your hourly rate, and the hourly rate he'll bill you at. (Doesn't hide rates.)
2.) No IP agreements.
3.) Reasonable non-competes
4.) How well they treat H1-B people. Do they threaten to deport them if they leave the company?
5.) Have you seen them lie? Do research with other people in the company. Ask pointed questions and see if employee answers match head-hunter answers.
6.) Attitude towards overtime.
7.) No patronizing attitude
8.) Open with what is going on with office politics
9.) Shows you the contract between head-hunter and company you'll go to.
10.) Asks where you want to go with your career
Bottom line, you've got to do your research. Google for people that have worked at the same company and ask them questions.
I agree, I have met a handfull that are actually honest and upstanding.
On the employee side, watch out for the scam where they try to get you in at a lower salary than the company is willing to pay in order to get a cut of the savings from the company in addition to the regular commision.
On the employer side, watch out for the recruiters that taylor their candidates to exactly the qualifications you asked for. Had a few cases where the person being interviewed remarked - "What? Where did you get the idea I have worked with XXXX?" Those type of recruiters are inevitably worthless in the long run and a big waster of your time.
Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
I had a fellow from Winter Wyman place me in three consecutive companies between 1999 and 2001. First company I left voluntarily after a year to switch tracks, then second two bombed during the fall. He was very professional and seemed to honestly try to balance meeting my desires in placement with expectations of my prospective employers. I don't know how other people feel about Winter Wyman, but I felt that I was treated professionally by them. I really don't have any other experience with recruiters.
Dogma - "let's just say we'd like to avoid any empirical entanglements."
Try finding a private Recruiter. One that consults on his/her own and is not associated with a larger corporation. These tend to be concerned with filling your positions with qualified candidates and building a good relationship because its their bread and butter not their company's. I have a friend thats a recruiter for the Hospitals but he is privately contracted. He said it works out much better because he's not under pressure to squeeze the client for every penny. A private recruiter can even offer a more indepth and personal evaluation of potential employees where a larger firm has goofy standardized testing. One look at public schools should tell you standardized tests are BS. This is only really good for hiring specific positions, not for high volume staffing in most cases.
I was placed in my current job by a guy from Winter Wyman. The company isn't doing too well, but I've been here almost three years (since 12/02), and it was an absolute joy working with him. There was no bullshit, he worked with my resume instead of padding it, and actively went out to find jobs for me (instead of waiting until something came across his desk that I would fit, unlike a certain other agency I tried to use).
Within two weeks of calling him, I had been on at least half a dozen interviews and had three separate offers.
When I was a hiring manager I liked psinapse because, while I got very few resumes from them, every one was a good candidate for the job opening (they sent almost no crud) - Since I've been freelance I've done a job for them as well, they were easy to work with and very supportive. Small company, but nice.
closed minded is as closed minded does
I'm a professional consultant, so I pay for services to help find me work. (actually, this is a bit past-tense now, as I have work, but I would pay in the future).
I favor an outcome-oriented approach, personally.
I understand your position. However, I am comfortable with paying for time. My current clients pays for my time, not my results. Now, if I don't produce results for the time they've paid me for, they stop paying. Nothing stops me, I guess, from failure to complete assignments in attempt to get my contract extended, but that is not a long-term successful approach.
You should definatly check the agent's referenes before paying them anything. You are basically hiring them as your part-time contracted employee, so do the same things as you would if you were hiring any other employee.
Yes, I am taking some risk in paying for time without guaranteed results. However, I am asking him to find a client to take a risk in paying for my time, without guaranteeing results.
This is a pretty standard model in the consulting/contracting industry. You are asking for more of a "fixed-price" system, or pay for results. I am sure that exists, and maybe it works. I personally have no experience with that model, so maybe someone who does could comment?
Sarcasm and hyperbole are the final refuges for weak minds
I've had good results working with one particular headhunter, who found me my current job and negotiated a good starting deal for me, but I haven't talked to him or anyone else from his company for at least two years (I've been employed here 3+ years). So I'm not sure I'd trust him or the agency to represent me another time, just because of the lack of familiarity. Although I hadn't met him before my previous job search, and he got me my kick-ass job. I suppose I'd give him a call, just to let him know I was available again. Before this job, a headhunter found me my previous job, but it turned out that he and my former boss were old buddies. Since I conducted my last job search on the sly, I couldn't trust that recruiter not to tell my boss what I was doing. These are the kinds of risks inherent in dealing with headhunters when you're looking for work.
Lousy minor setbacks! This world sucks! -- Homer Simpson
I've worked with three companies since about '96 -- both as employer and employee, and found them to be extremely diligent. Most recently I landed an extremely good full time position at an excellent salary doing work on an interesting project. The recruiter who placed me still checks in occasionally with me and others she's placed at this company.
I am certain their are incompetent, and sometimes even deceitful recruiters out there, just as there are bad people in any field, luckily I haven't been hooked by one.
In the boom times of the late nineties, recruiters were everyone's buddies, often landing job-switchers with plum assignments at higher salaries. In the bust, even the good ones have got a bad rap - not returning emails and calls, failing to respond to resumes and correspondence, etc.
But look, IT recruiting is affected as much by the current economic cycle as developers, sysadmins, projects managers, and the rest.
At least one of the good ones I've worked with has switched careers, as business dried up. Others still have to sift through hundreds of resumes, emails, calls, and match those to a dwindling number of opportunities. It's only marginally easier to get a recruiters attention than a prospective employers these days, so how about this:
Practice selling yourself like the valuable resource you are. Here are some things that worked for me:
One more thing: Have trouble in social situations, expressing yourself to non-tech people, public-speaking? No matter, so do a lot of people, you're not alone. You can either change or expect that IT people with those skills may beat you out of opportunities. Take a public-speaking or debate course at a community college and practice. If you find yourself calling end-users 'lusers', think GUIs are for wimps, or get impatient with your grandma 'cause she can't ssh into your linux box, you need to pay close attention to what I've just said.
None of this will gurantee you'll always find honest, helpful recruiters, but at least you'll get their attention, if they're out there.
"That naive cube! How long must I suffer this!" --Sheldon J. Plankton
The key word being QUALIFIED. You might also want to put in there the word GOOD. There aren't many good ones.
Is that they do not work for you. They work for themselves and they want to place bodies no matter what. Another thing is that they know that there is little chance that they will get repeat business from you but there is a good chance that they will get repeat business from the employer, therefore they are more interested in pleasing the employer than pleasing you. Third, they make a big stinking commision for placing you. Don't be shy to ask them for some of it. They will pay you a signing bonus if they have to.
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
a.k.a. TechieGold.com, a.k.a. Atlantis Partners, a.k.a. Boylston Group, a.k.a. MacArthur Associates, a.k.a. Remington International...
I once repsonded to this job posting and the recruiter wanted me to come in to their San Jose office and talk to them. They also wanted references. Sure, what the hell. I was told to make sure my resume was on their techie gold website. I came in, went through some dorky formulaic interview, and was sent on my way with promises that they'd be in touch. I'd been laid off recently, so I felt like I had accomplished something. This same office then used my "references" as contacts (I know, I was naive) and tried to pitch people to them and otherwise hit them up. They later screwed up with one of my references by claiming they were an authorized vendor for his company when there weren't - they had pitched a good guy, but my friend couldn't hire him.
Cut to a month later, and I am asked to come up to a recruiter in San Francisco. Before I get there they tell me about Techie Gold, and I tell them I'm already in there. When I get there the first thing I notice is that their computers are identical - the same iMacs appearing to run the same software as the place in San Jose. They run me through the SAME exact interview process (write some acronym on the resume and proceed to ask questions) and then I have to ask what their relationship to this other firm is. They say that they're both "Techie Gold Partners", whatever that means. I explain how their offices are laid out EXACTLY the same and the interview is EXACTLY the same. She repeats that they are "Techie Gold Partners". At least this time I didn't give them "references".
So I get home and do some digging around and realize that this company, Stride and Associates, is either selling headhunter franchies or operating these "companies" in the attempt to look diverse. Either way they aren't very honest about it, and aren't very good. If you talk to a company using one of those four names or who wants you to go to TechieGold to fill out your resume don't bother. They probably are just looking for "contacts" and don't really have the job anyway.
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
http://www.hacknot.info/servlet/HS?cmd=sen&eid =1
I recommend strong caution before you ever pay someone to assist you in your job search. For more information see: Jobscams.com
Evolution: love it or leave it
You remember wrong on details, although you're right on the relevant principle. The "Berne" changes were generally more minor technical issues...
In 1976, effective Jan. 1, 1978, U.S. copyright law was substantially overhauled. Some of the major changes were to coordinate with international treaty, which required that you couldn't lose copyright over technicalities (e.g. failure to register).
Under current U.S. law:
Nope. :-/
For what it's worth, the latest scumbag ones were from Modis. Much worse than (used) car salesmen, definitely; and I do have (alas) experience about dealing with both. I'll do my best to make sure I'll never use them, either as employer (when helping my managers in hiring) or as a job-hunter (if I need some "professional" help in future).
I have also been wondering why is it that shit floats, and evolution does not seem to kill off worst bottom-feeders, at least not in case of head hunting. It would seem to me, too, that small dose of integrity should be better long-term strategy, and that companies and job-seekers alike should appreciate any company/individual that has and shows integrity.
I'm an engineer (Electrical), in Construction. I have had one (and only one) headhunter who was honest with me, and with my potential employers. I've dealt with him for years. (Only accepted 2 of the jobs, though.) That was Bob Bowers at Clearmont-Brannon in Atlanta. Actually, he and I have never met except by phone. Still, it was OK.
A headhunter is actually there to sift through all the thousands of resume's a real job gets. These are all mamagement (technical) and typically pay 80-120K. There are a lot of folks who would say anything to get one, so there's a lot of sifting to do.
These people are usually specialists to a particular industry. Bob is for construction P.E.'s. If you don't know what that means, then you aren't qualified. I am sure that there are other good ones that are for other industries, but I havn't met any of them. Like all job searches, the name of the game is networking. These folks network for a living. Usually, if they don't think you are being straight with them, then they won't give you anything.(If they refer some one to a client, and it turns out it was Bozo the Clown, they lose that client. They HATE losing clients!) They are paid by the companies, and they want repeat business. You do have to remember that a headhunter is working for the company that retained him, not for you. If you present yourself well to the hunter, and if what you claim is true, then you can make it past the first couple of hurdles.
Note, this will not replace you networking and looking for yourself. you are still more likely to get a job from someone who knows you, or knows of you, than from a stranger. That is especially true for the better paying and more responsible positions.
Well. So much to write. So little time tonight. I have read quite a bit that I would like to respond to. I will see how much I can get to before I start falling asleep.
Yes, the recruiting industry has a generally bad reputation. There are a LOT of scumbag recruiters out there. And I cannot tell you how much more difficult they make it for me to do my work.
I am a sole proprietor. I like my 'job'. I hope that I am a little different from the average headhunter. I generally work fairly low volume, and work to build solid long term relationships with clients. I also work to build long term relationships with candidates. I get to know people well, and the companies well, so that my placements are happy, and so that the companies are happy. Somewhere over 95% of my placements stay at their positions for 2 years or more. Is this normal? No. That is why I am still in business when many of my competitors have gone under. I also have the advantage that I was once a software developer, so I 'speak the language' a little better than most recruiters.
Fees: In my city, the standard fee is 20%. I only collect my fee when a candidate accepts and starts a position. In most cases the company pays me within 30 days of the start. I have a 6 month 100% replacment guarantee. I work hard to provide the best service for my fee. But this does not make me rich, especially with the economy being down for 2.5 years.
I bring value to a company. I find them the people they need, in the time frame they are looking for. In the long run I SAVE money for my clients.
I am on the phone all week long. I am contacting clients and candidates. Some may think it is easy to make a quick buck from a placement, but those people have no idea how much time and effort is spent long before a good job order arrives on my desk. I keep files on over 300 companies. Most of those companies I have never worked with, but may in the future.
My suggestions for a candidate looking for an 'honest' headhunter:
1) Ask friends (but not current coworkers) for the names of recruiters they like and trust.
2) If you have doubts about the person/agency then call first. If you cannot talk with a person, and if they do not return your call, take that as a big hint to look somewhere else.
3) Make sure that the company will not send your resume ANYWHERE without your explicit permission. You should get a detailed job description before agreeing to have your resume sent. In my case, I tell my candidates the company name after they have agreed to have their resume sent. (Hint, if you have already sent your resume to the company, and you did not recognize the job description, then part of the problem is of your own creation.)
4) Make sure the recruiter asks about (preferred) or listens to (acceptable) your own GOALS. The recruiter should be able to give you an idea about how realistic your goals are.
5) In better times I keep in touch with all my candidates. I generally work with 10-20 people at a time. Currently I am working with over 200 unemployed IT related people, so I do not have time to call all of them even every few weeks. At present I only call when I have jobs. I spend most of my time trying to find positions for at least SOME of the people I am working with.
6) As someone posted CORRECTLY, the absolute BEST way to find yourself a new position is through networking. A very high percentage of jobs are found that way.
For companies looking for an honest headhunter:
0) Dang. This is a hard one to quantify.
1) Look for value, not price. Look for a contract with guarantees. Ask for references from other satisfied customers of the recruiter.
2) Look for quality, not quantity. Make sure you have a clause in your contract that says you can cancel the contract and not accept resumes if the quality is poor. Limit the number of resumes that the recruiter is allows to send for each position.
3) Make sure the recruiter understands your industry and product.
Well, I hope this helps.
If anyone has specific questions, please ask.