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Have You Personally Used an Honest Head Hunter?
Haacked asks: "As a software manager, I've tried using recruiters and head hunters to find qualified employees. My experience is that used car salesman feel like paragons of integrity, in comparison. It seems their interests never lie with the job applicant, nor the company. However, I once read that some recruiters do act with integrity and actually care about the people they are trying to place. The book suggested finding a head hunter who is interested in a long term relationship with you (not for the commitment-phobic) and will serve more as a career counselor, attempting to find a position that meets your goals. Seems to me that establishing a long-term relationship with fewer as opposed to screwing people over in volume would make good business sense to garner repeat business. Have any of you ever worked with any firms you felt represented your interests well?"
Shortly after introducing himself, asked me to sign a pledge declaring that I would not, under any circumstances, accept a counteroffer from my current employer.
One recruiter, who I had never met or spoken to, submitted my resume to the company I had just left two months previously! Not only that, but he grossly exaggerated my experience and qualifications.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Like Diogenes and his search for an honest man, I personally have never been able to find an honest headhunter! The sleaziest incident was when one of them slipped me $1000 cash in an unmarked white envelope to quit the job I'd just started and go to work for the job he had been trying to set me up with but was taking too long. Ah, those were the good ol' days...
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
As for recruiters who try to help you out for free, don't forget, you get what you pay for.
Sarcasm and hyperbole are the final refuges for weak minds
They don't care about the employee or the employer.
Even though I was desperate for employment, I decided they weren't worth the trouble.
Not to mention all the OHHHH, that position was just filled after making an inqury about a posting on monster.com (or the like).
I guess I got lucky, the company I'm working for came looking for me....
No more Micro$oft bashing from me. Its like bashing at the special olympics.
I don't understand why people still go to headhunters. Even if this mysterious honest recruitment firm did exist, they'd still be taking a lot of money that could be going to your salary (they have to make a profit somehow), and they'll always be bad at matching you up with a company, because if they knew what they were talking about, they'd have a real job.
Every single job I've ever had was the result of me knowing somebody who either worked for the company, or was a friend of someone in management. Any time I've ever gone on an interview that a headhunter found me, it was a complete fiasco. I'm a java programmer, and most of the time they sent me to companies looking for a javascript guy.
They also simply tended to be crappy jobs, which is why they had to pay a headhunter to find them employees. An appealing job will attract an employee with little effort. A good employee who's been in the business for a while and knows some people will usually be able to find their way to it.
Money I owe, money-iy-ay
I have worked with a number of headhunters, and I've had very unpleasant results across the board.
It's something of a vicious cycle in that hiring managers tend to hedge their bets by bringing in multiple headhunters, making it less profitable for the headhunters to do high-quality work for any giving manager. It just doesn't make economic sense for them to really screen candidates and find the perfect fit since neither the candidate nor the hiring manager is locked in.
At one point I tried using a headhunter on a retained basis. We paid him up front for his work on a high-level technical hire, and he put a number of candidates in front of us. He did put a lot of time into the search, and did a better job of screening candidates than any of the contingent (pay if you hire) headhunters. Unfortunately, none of the candidates that we saw fit the bill, and we ended up having paid beaucoup bucks for no results.
I do think, however, that this is the way to go. If you can find a quality headhunter that builds long-term relationships with smart, qualified people, then it's probably worth doing a retained search.
I've been a candidate on both types of search, and the retained is far better from a candidate perspective as well. The hiring manager has already committed significant resources, and has delegated meaningful responsibility to the headhunter - so you can believe 25% of what he/she says, not the usual 10%.
FWIW, I've been trying to hire a couple of Linux-savvy folks for the past month or so, and I've avoided bringing in a headhunter. I can screen resumes as well as the next guy, and probably better than most, and I'll be happy to save the 15-20% fee that they would charge me.
warning: epoll_wait is not implemented and will always fail
I have, but it was deep into my career as a developer before I found one.
Most seem to be flesh pimps... put a warm body in a seat... as long as they get their check. That can not only ruin their reputation with companies out there, but can ruin a developer's career and self esteem.
I have to wonder, in retrospect, if part of the problem was me though. I now know exactly how to talk with head hunters, and think I am pretty good at getting a feel for what they're actually about. I have no problem telling them when they're wrong, and when I think they're trying to pimp me out.
I have a good working relationship with two head hunters now, and they know my skillset very well. I haven't had a problem with the flesh pimps (other than the usual cold calls) in some time.
I did, once, have one ask me how long it would take for me to learn a particular language that wasn't on my resume. I asked him how long it would take him to learn Portugese. He got the message.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Thanks to the market being swamped, the head hunters have started to turn against not only the possable employee, but against the company looking for the recruit. I have seen, and been on the recieving end many times of a head hunter saying that I had a job, just to find out they gave it to some one else. Once, I even got a call from the company I was going to be working for, and they asked why *I* turned them down. Don't trust a head hunter, there is a reason they are called that. sin
Merf
I don't understand why people still go to headhunters. Even if this mysterious honest recruitment firm did exist, they'd still be taking a lot of money that could be going to your salary (they have to make a profit somehow), and they'll always be bad at matching you up with a company, because if they knew what they were talking about, they'd have a real job.
Certainly not my experience. I've had 2 very good experiences with headhunters, and 2 mediocre ones. It is certainly not true that "if they knew what they were talking about, they'd have a real job." I've had managers that couldn't code, and certainly the headhunters couldn't, but they DID know how to communicate. That's what they're there for, and if they know how to do that you're in good hands.
I can tell good UI from bad, but I have a real hard time coming up with good UI on my own. There are plenty of art critics who can't paint. Hell, everyone knows good music when they hear it, but relatively few can play.
For that matter, there are plenty who can play music but not compose - and vice versa...
I respectfully disagree.
My current job was acquired through a head-hunter (a good one) and I wouldn't have gotten it any other way. The employer had an exclusive agreement to bring on a certain number of people and they all had to go through this head-hunter. A sort of package deal.
As it turns out, the costs for a head-hunter can be equivalent to what one might pay an HR department to do similar work... and when you have a small or non-existant HR department, a reputable head-hunter can be a great asset.
That all being said, I found the job because the head-hunter had posted specific positions to a job web-site and I responded to two of them because they were both buzz-word compliant with my resume. Within a week I had the job, with salary negotiated through the head-hunter. I felt that they did a good job of playing advocate for both sides.
Since then, I've had an opportunity to deal with them from the employer side and the people they sent us were always very close to what we were looking for... at least as close as one can get without being "us".
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
When I was first out of college, I used a headhunter to find my first programming job in Chicago. I can't remember his name or the company, but he was somewhere downtown on Wacker street I think. It took several months to find a job that I was a good fit for, especially since I didn't have a CS degree. He sent me on one or two interviews that weren't really good fits for me and was kind of amazed when I turned a company down because they were "too corporate." But he got the message, and a bit later he found me weveral interviews at once and I ended up with three offers to choose from.
Out here in Silicon Valley I know one good recruiter who used to work for one of my former employers on a contract basis. She found good people for us to interview, which is exactly what she was supposed to do. She also gave me some advice when I was job hunting again a few months ago. The recruiters who work for my current employer seemed good too. In both of these cases they definitely represented the employer, not the potential employees.
On the other hand I've run across some bad ones. Before I found the good one in Chicago, I encountered some agencies that were more like meat markets than technical recruiters. At one of them I showed up for an initial interview and they were also interviewing hairdressers. From the employer side, I've also encountered quite a few recruiters who will give managers lots and lots of resumes for unqualified people, without making any effort to filter them at all. ("Does the word Java appear anywhere on this resume? No? Then why did you send it to me for a Java programming job?")
Summary: There are some excellent recruiters out there, but they're hard to find. Once you find a good one, stick with them.
Well, partially, I'd say 'Duh.' These people make money by placing people. That's how they put food on the table... its to be expected that they are more concerned with that than either of the two parties.
In most cases I've seen, the headhunters are conerned for themselves first, the company second (after all, the company is paying them), and the candidates last.
Generally, I've tried avoiding recruiters from agencies. At my previous job, I was hired by a recruiter who was on retainer from the company, and I worked with a recruiter while there when we were hiring more people. They seemed to actually care about the company. They also seemed to care a bit about the candidates, since most of them realized that lying to someone just to get them through the door would result in an unhappy employee who was likely to jump ship, which would make them look bad in the eyes of management.
Personally, if I were at a company and needed to hire, I'd just hire a recruiter, and put them on a bonus schedule... if the employee remains for 6 months, they get a bonus... if the employee is still there after a year, another bonus. That would make the recruiter care about the whole equation, since it is in his/her best interest.
Oh, and the only time i can actually verify that I was flat-out lied to in order to get me through the door? No recruiter was involved... it was the doing of a VP and my manager.
At the end of our conversation in which I mentionned I was a programmer and was looking for work, he said, well consider this your interview: you passed.
After that he got me a really cush job, but not after allowing me to turn down 3-4 crummy ones.
He even coached me on interview presentation, something which as a young person and a developer combined, I lacked even though my skills were good.
It's been roughly 4 years since, and I still talk with the guy, we go out for coffee sometimes etc. He's helped me out during times of depression/annoyement with the job market... overall career-saver for sure.
So it does exist, you just have to be lucky I guess.
On a side note, the company that ended up hiring me had and continues to have very close ties with the hiring firm. It's basically an extention of their PR department for hiring. No hiring done from outside that loop.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that some of these firms have a significant business on the side stealing identities. It is very lucrative, penalties are non-existent and there is almost no prosecution, so it's a natural niche for organized crime.
How could you prevent this? You can't. Just for the identity theft reasons alone it is probably best to avoid these firms.
Of course every potential employers wants you to provide the same information!8-((
A contract organization is looking to solve your short-term needs with highly qualified individuals, and is hoping for repeat business. A headhunter wants to fill shoes, and is looking for volume business. A contract organization can act as a headhunter, but I'd only use them as such after giving them a 'trial' period.
One thing to look out for, however- don't use a contractor if they might be able to steal YOUR clients. It's not worth the risk, and the temptation might be too much if your business ( or the client's projects ) are small enough to be stolen.
There are two types of decent headhunter. One is a lone individual, who has a few friends from previous businesses who they know well and can count on. They are rare, since once everyone is placed, the business is over.
The other is a smallish organization who caters to a niche market, specializes, and even occasionally holds training seminars for the people they employ. Companies like this have 401(k) plans an other stuff you might be surprised to hear a contract work businees offer. Also rare.
On the other hand, if you had a really great work environment and paid well, you wouldn't have a hard time attracting good talent, would you ?!? Set those things right, and you won't _need_ a pimp... er, headhunter.
This book is filled with great tips and advice on finding the "right" job. Moreover, apart from specific suggestions, its approach will get you thinking outside the box, so to speak, and you'll come up with your own ideas.
I've had some great ideas, over the years. Some have proven successful, and others had led to spectacular failure. But I've never regretted being creative in search of a good job, because it's always landed me someplace worth being.
Keep your resume and correspondence brief and sharp. You're almost always in competition for a prospective employer's attention, so you have to stand out from the pack. A four-page resume with solid blocks of text is a bad idea. Plan your resume visually, just like an advertisement -- because that's exactly what it is.
Do whatever you can to bypass the wall of "human resources," and get to the people who are empowered to recognize skill and talent. The primary purpose of an HR department is not to hire, but rather to screen. The first thing an HR employee looks for, when picking up someone's resume, is a reason why this person can't be right for the job.
Remind yourself of some basic marketing tips and techniques. I recommend all three of Harry Beckwith's books, starting with Selling the Invisible. Everything, from your cover letter to your interview, is about selling yourself. Mention your skills, but focus on yourself. At the end of the day, in most cases, an employer isn't hiring a resume or a set of skills: He's hiring a person. You. The first three seconds of the interview are the most important, so smile and offer a firm handshake. Dress just a little bit better than is appropriate for the job; don't wear jeans, and don't wear a tux. Carry a "Thank You" card with you to the interview, and drop it into a mailbox as you leave.
Instead of trying to prove that you're the best choice, convince the employer that you're a good choice.
My two cents.
cribPlease don't read my journal
I once asked a head hunter if an interview he scheduled for me would be preceeded by a urine test. I told him I wanted to know so I could drink a bottle of water to prepare myself. (A few weeks earlier, I had to wait in a company's on-site health center for an hour "processing" water for a urine test, before they'd even let me interview). He told me it was a delicate topic, but he'd try to find out.
A few hours later, he called back and said he asked around his office and found out there are chemicals you can put in your sample cup to hide drug traces.
So not only did he assume I was a druggie and a liar (even though I told him the true reason I asked), but thinking that, he decided to not only not tell the client but help me decieve the client. When I got the job, I told the story to my boss and the HR rep. They never used that agency again.
Head hunters are like car salesmen (or worse...they're like the dealership finance manager). They get big margins, rarely get repeat customers, have a short time to close the deal (so they use high pressure tactics), and have to make regular sales to keep their jobs.
Head hunters might actually be worse, since they have to con both parties of the sale, a car salesman doesn't deal with the manufacturer.
I'm a lawyer. I represented a number of IT individuals in a case against their employer (a very big bank) for age discrimination.
Several headhunters had recruited my clients. The bank wanted people who could deal with "black box" COBOL 77 applications - in other words the bank had acquired a number of smaller banks with legacy COBOL systems in place.
The bank had a year to bring their acquisitions on-line with Fed reporting services. They told the headhunters that the people they were recruiting were to become VP's or higher (because programmers who know COBOL 77 are already senior programmers or senior system's analysts and not ready to leave the banks they were working with - especially if they found out that the bank only needed them for a single project!).
The year passed, the folks recruited away from their old jobs (some with 20+ years at their former employer) were never given an evaluation, never given a VP position and were, as a group, fired with a nice release that paid them an extra 2 weeks pay if they promised not to sue.
The top headhunter in the group that recruited 20+ IT professionals was there with an affidavit on the federal complaint and went on to testify that his firm had been mislead by the bank.
This firm, and the top guy, walked the walk and told the truth in deposition and would have testified on the stand but for the (substantial) settlement on the Saturday before trial.
His own words, "If my reputation is lost I will never be able to work this town again." I can't say more, but that the city was the greater Kansas City (MO/KS) area and a national association bank was the defendant.
His firm never had business from the NA bank. But I have great respect for his willingness to put his company on the line for one ugly job.
I received a nine month (six+three) contract through a head hunter. My experience was actually quite good. At the time, I was not aware of the reputation of headhunters.
/.) I told management there was nothing for me to do, but they asked that I stay, "In case anything happens to the servers"
It was one of my first significant jobs in my career as a developer. I had little experience, and no more education than a high school diploma. I did profess to be good with computers. (And I am!)
Both the headhunters and the company I was to be placed at liked me; I was hired.
The company I was working for was a small dot-*cough* Of course, this was before the bubble burst. I was actually told by the headhunters, "We don't normally deal with clients this small, but we know these guys, and we think they're going somewhere"
I was being paid CAD$25/hr, eventually I got a raise to $29. Not too bad for me, at the time. The headhunter's cut off that was $13/hr. When I found this out, I was a little offended. Still, I was making okay cash, and after a year the company was allowed to hire me without the need to buy my contract.
The, predictably, the company went south. I spent the last couple months warming a chair (and reading
(Did I mention I was hired as a developer -- but this was after the sys admins had quit. Servers weren't under any real load, and everything was pretty automated.)
After two months of this, I was contacted by an old employer and offered a position. I took it and worked both jobs part time.
Not two weeks after taking the new job, the headhunters contacted me. I was asked not to go back, because there were some problems regarding payment. This didn't really prove to be a problem; I transitioned nicely into full time at the other job.
I found out later that the company had burned the headhunters for about $30,000. (There was a second contractor, as well.) Apparently, the company was promising for months to get their bills paid. Of course, this never happened.
Looking back, I am very glad the headhunters were there. I was paid by them, every two weeks, right into my account. I know other people who worked there and have long given up on receiving any money they were owed.
A few weeks after I stopped going there, the office manager called me, to ask if I would work under the table. I laughed at her.
I still talk to the guys at the headhunter's once in a while. Even went to a couple christmas parties after my work with them was done.
First my disclaimer. I am not affiliated with Teksystems other than as a previous satisfied consultant. I am not working for them now. I have 9 years of consulting experience which has been a mixed bag.
TekSystems is a first class outfit. I had some dealings with them in the Detroit area and everyone I had contact with there was professional, honest, and hard working.
When I moved to Denver, I found their branch out here to be just as good. They placed me and they showed the same interest and enthusiasm in me after I was placed as before. After I was hired on full time they continued to followup occasionally.
Laid off now, they are the recruiters that I went to first. All in all, my best recruiter experience ever.
And now for a shameless plug: My resume If you are looking for a Linux/UNIX, web/sys admin, PHP or Perl developer, hit me up.
"Seems to me that establishing a long-term relationship with fewer as opposed to screwing people over in volume would make good business sense to garner repeat business."
That makes good business sense for a recruiting firm. Unfortunately, headhunters aren't looking to stay in that job for a long time. They either want to hop from job to job increasing their salaries and collecting bonuses along the way and cash out early (Much like the people they are trying to place.), or they're occupational transients-people who are smart and capable enough to handle a white-collar job, but not ready to settle into a career.
And don't forget that jobhunters know that headhunters are scum, and probably hate them just as much as you do. Smart techies often ignore headhunters altogether, instead just focusing on personal networking and direct applications to bigger companies with recruiting departments.
Do yourself-and the industry-a favor. Don't feed those bastards, and maybe they'll all die off.
Let me tell you a little story.
When I was looking for work a few years ago, I was told about a job by a headhunting group. They told me the company that was hiring generally gave $6k for relocation, which seemed pretty high to me, but I said that sounded great and let's move on. Well, lo and behold, I was offered the job, but there was no talk of relocation benefits in the offer letter.
So I ask the company, and I mention the 6k and they say they only offer that kind of money to upper management types. So, I call back the headhunters and relay the information. Without even blinking, the recruiter says "Oh, well then since we already mentioned it we'll just pay you the $6k". Keep in mind that there was no contract or anything in writing stating I would receive $6k for relocation expenses. As soon as I moved to the new location, I put my stuff in storage and got a hotel room and called the recruiters and told them I had arrived to take the position. The very next day a check arrived at my hotel room from the recruiting agency made out to me for $6,000.
The moral is, these guys make boatloads of money on each new hire, which is why they were not particularly bothered by giving me that money.
Good recruiting firms require people with good character. I was a recruiter for a few years at a contingency firm where that was not the case. In fact, most of the firms in our industry attracted transient, fucked up people playing a hustler's game.
Our office was populated with addictive, poorly educated and borderline personalities... the spitting image of the firm's founder who badly needed a shrink himself.
Recruiters brought candidates in for interviews just to pump them for information in pursuit of other clients or candidates. The firm would recruit from client companies despite promises to the contrary - justifying it by changing the definition of "client" to suit their needs.
We were encouraged to pressure candidates into accepting positions and clients into meeting us regardless of fit. One hiring manager (dealing with a different firm) actually had to obtain a court order to get a recruiting firm to stop calling him.
Most of the people in the office didn't give a rats ass about their candidates or clients - what they wanted was the deal. The recruiters in our office lived off straight commission and too many spent the cash on drugs and other vices. And we were considered one of the better and more successful firms in our region.
Any business that offers $10,000+ commissions based on how many phone calls you can make is going to attract the kind of person whose going to piss off people who actually need to think to make a living.
And still - HR departments produced resumes so bad for hiring managers that satan could've attracted fees if he had the "right" candidates. HR may be ethical - but they're results suck.
Want some advice? If you're a candidate and your looking for a job deal with no more than two firms, stand up for your privacy and know who your dealing with. Be very polite, but don't allow yourself to be used.
If you're a client do your firm and yourself a favor and develop a personal network that frees you from having to use recruiters. Use a name brand retained search firm, or search consultancy when you need the job done right.
DISCLAIMER: The observations and conclusions are based on my personal experience. There are good firms and good people in the contingency industry --- just too few in relation to scumbags IMHO.
Thanks for posting the list of known "aliases" of TechieGold.com "partners". It'll give me a list of places to avoid next time I have to look for a job.
I dealt with Remington International in Chicago. They posted a job listing looking for people with experience in wireless internet and I replied. After a brief phone interview with a recruiter (which felt like a pressure sell from a used car guy), I filled out the stuff on TechiesGold.com and went downtown to talk to the recruiter/headhunter guy.
The open area where all the recruiters sat was a scene straight out of Boiler Room. Recruiters on the phones probably cold calling HR departments and hiring managers to see if they had any open positions. The recruiter and I sat at his desk in this open area and proceeded to talk about my resume and experience. I asked him about the job I actually applied for and he said he would look into that for me. At this point, I had a sinking feeling that the job posting was just to get me in the office and there really wasn't a position for wireless internet development. It was all bait and switch.
Some of the "rules" I had to follow with Remington International were a little odd. Recruiters would never call you if they had a position they'd like to interview for. You had to call them every few days to "check in" with them. Also, all interview information was done through the TechieGold.com website which wasn't exactly the most reliable website. And you had to call the recruiter immedialely after the interview to give him your impression of how it went. I could only imagine that if the interview went well, he would call the hiring manager immediately to get him to make an offer as soon as possible so he could get his commission (which one of the hiring managers marked on a copy of my resume at 20 percent).
I got a couple of interviews but after the first week, no more interviews. One company was interested in me but wasn't making a move yet on making an offer (it turns out they were balking at that 20 percent rate) so I continued to call the recruiter every two days like a good boy. I would ask him during those phone calls about the new job postings on TechieGold.com that I thought fit my skills and experience perfectly. He always said he would look into it but I never heard back from him until one time I mentioned a job on TechieGold.com at ABN Amro that looked interesting. He said he would try and set me up with an interview.
A few hours later, there was a new message in my TechieGold mailbox about an interview set up for next week. The day of the interview, I put on my suit, hoped on the 8:00am train to the loop for a 9am interview. I showed up at the building only to find out that the person I was interviewing with was on vacation. Not only was she on vacation, she had been on vacation for the week previous as well. In other words, she was on vacation at the same time the recruiter guy supposedly set up an interview for me with her. Hmmmm....
The company that was interested eventually passed on me. That's okay. They didn't give vacation until after your one year anniversary and the machines the developers used had 13" monitors. They also expected their software developers to train people to use the software they developed which required 20% travel during rollouts. Very odd.
So if you are looking for a job or looking for a new hire, avoid the TechieGold.com companies at all costs. Caveat Emptor.