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Judge Examines Microsoft Settlement Progress
Infonaut writes "The judge who presided over the settlement between Microsoft and the federal government may be starting to realize what a lot of people already know about Microsoft. The settlement was predicated on the belief that competitors would be able to license technology from Microsoft in order to get some relief from Microsoft's desktop OS monopoly. As Kollar-Kelly admitted, 'I think all of us had hoped for more agreements.' Now the judge is asking federal prosecutors to examine specifically why more licensing agreements have not been reached. I'm truly shocked that the settlement isn't turning out as planned, after the Justice Department so shrewdly rolled over when they had Microsoft over a barrel."
I won't make any agreements to license this baby!
who will be on bush's pardon list (provided he gets booted from office)?
i'm betting kenny-boy, and microsoft.
Other world players is Tandberg of Norway and Laplink.
Go here for an assessment by a thoroughly pissed of Lawyer that has covered this debacle from the get go.
Help fight continental drift.
The judge said it was unclear whether Microsoft's competitors were unhappy with terms of the offers or simply not interested, "and there's not much we can do about that."
Doesn't sound like the judge is "starting to realize" anything. Next time try reading the article before posting a summary.
Mmmm.. Donuts
"Never attribute to maliciousness that which can be explained by stupidity." - Twain
The main problem is out judicial system is not setup to deal adequately with technology lawsuits. We have lawyers with barely a clue trying to explain to judges with practically no clue what the technology does nor what the ramifications are.
The idea of 3 more years of school might turn you off, but for the out-of-work CompSci degree holders, law school might be a great choice. The world needs lawyers who intimately understand technology to be able to try these cases, and those lawyers need to go on to become the judges who preside over such cases. Without such people in the legal system, we will keep seeing ridiculous judgements.
Knunov
Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
It is Kollar-Kotelly, not Kollar-Kelly.
It can be just that alot of people have realized that it's not worth it. Microsoft will either make it difficult for your software to operate properly; especially if it directly competes with something from them or they'll simply try to screw you in some other area. IE, higher mark up fee for X software. It's simply not worth the headache and trouble for any business especially a startup business. Sure, Microsoft is a convicted monopoly with zero punishment, so they continue to act like a monopoly. If there is no punishment, even if a crime is committed; a monopoly will continue to do so.. heh you'd think a Federal Judge would understand that. For all those that are going to respond with a monopoly isn't illegal. Be sure you understand that a natural monopoly isn't illegal, a monopoly gained from unfair practices is, however illegal. I just don't understand how one company can be convicted of illegal monopolistic practices in an industry that garners them billions upon billions and are let go with; heh, please don't do it again, and oh yeah you can be on the board of persons who makes sure you operate justly and fairly.
This country, America is a bunch of bullshit.
The anti-trust case went to hell as soon as Big Business Bush got into office. Now that it seems we may actually have an election, things seem to be coming back to life.
Ah hell, it's not who casts the ballots, it's who counts them, right? 51 billion in cash reserves, Micro$loth will probably end up being the one.
Why do I get excited by viruses and tanking stocks? Long term freedom and prosperity.
Open source- the greatest equalizer mankind has ever seen.
Microsoft is right here. After all, it's not their fault if the selected President* told his people to give a brisk slap on the wrist to Microsoft after the previously administration had won the case in court and had them bound, bent over and greased up.
And who selected the president?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Please allow me to remind you that the DMCA passed through the Senate unapposed - No one in the Senate voted against it. There were 99 votes for it and 0 against. We have patents on simple software algorithms that last 20 years with no end in sight. Remember, even if you understand that software patents are bad, if you're in the business, you've got to play the game the way it's set up, or your competitors will not hesitate to screw you over. Remember the Amazon.com one-click patent?
The problem is that politicians clearly don't understand technology, plain and simple.
I think that a good starting point would be to impose strict term limits on our Representatives and Senators. Our country can do without the people who make it their career to be politicians and contribute nothing else. Furthermore, those career politicians live in a world of their own; they have no idea what it's like to have your ideas taken away from you because of some stupid patent law. Look at Gray Davis; he's pissed off because he's been recalled from office by angry voters. Gray Davis passed stupid laws from which he was detached from the consequences. He had a big political machine that crushed the opposition in the last election cycle. He didn't care that he raised car taxes through the roof. He didn't care that foolish policies crippled California's power system. It's great to see that someone finally made him face the music.
My point is, politicians don't understand anything but politics these days because that's all they do.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
To control digital communication world wide.
To remove all competitors and hardware platform competition.
To invest in technologies that can become a monoply, and only make heavy investments in tech that they can completely control.
Legally steal software tech with coding virgins if they cannot Legally own it.
Protect their code base so that it cannot be cloned by altering the coding languages and making them proprietary.
They are completely within their rights in doing these things. It is the consumer and communication industry that needs to fight this monolyth not the courts. They harm the industry with their software patents and security policies, and the sooner the consumer realises this the better.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
At least the DOJ continues to check on Microsoft compliance on a regular basis.
Let's not forget that 9 states are objecting to the flimsy DOJ ruling and may overturn it locally. Additionally, the market may readjust in the coming 24 months or so, and rearrange Microsoft's dominance without the DOJ's assistance.
Today, the combined state of RedHat/Enterprise, SuSE/IBM, and OpenOffice, have started a huge push which will steamroll, garnering support (and dollars) from both small business and corporate end users. Steve Ballmer has become publicly shrill and irrational. Samba v3 tested faster than Win2k/AD.
Progress on this is like the minute hand- you can't really see it moving, but it's moving.
But has anyone considered that maybe other companies don't consider Microsoft's technology to be worth licensing? I don't even think it's worth pirating, myself.
--Shoeboy
The word "billion" comes to mind.
- It's convenient for ISV's to concern themselves with a single platform. Way before my (professional) time, it'd have been tough for a smaller outfit to target all the popular platforms: atari, commodore, amiga, PC, Apple/Mac, various DOS flavors, etc. They pretty much picked one, maybe more, and gambled that they'd still exist and/or remain popular.
- Books, third party dev tools, publications, and training (formal and informal) have long been plentiful.
- Many software companies (ok...not as many now) target MS platforms.
- And a few more...
But as of late I'm having a change of heart. For the following reasons (and others):- nefarious upgrade practices
- restrictive licensing practices
- the lessening of system level tools/techniques available to third party developers
- still more incursions into third party developer space (search engines, email, possibly anti-virus)
I've about had it with Redmond. I don't even really want to create software for their platforms anymore. Still, I'm not in the RMS camp; I like the idea of making money on software, possibly by restricting the availability of the source code.I do recognize the benefit of open/free platforms and frameworks. My question is this: is there a place for proprietary (read 'closed') applications on said open/free platforms and frameworks?
I visited the "licensing" site a few weeks back, and the whole thing is "fill in this form and we'll get back to you about your payment". Sorry, that's not what they were supposed to do.
Let's hope the judge realises that for competition to occur, the main player cannot levy a fee against its competitors.
You got to be kidding, right?
The only reasons I can imagine you posted this is that:
- You've never used quality software that's not bloatware with 50 million intimidating features you've never used and will never use or,
- It's a troll.
Cheers!-Mybrid
Besides As much as I dislike M$, Microsoft does not have an illegal monolopy
Ummm, you haven't been paying attention, have you? M$ was in fact found guilty of being an illegal monopoly in a court of law.
Additionly, it was no secret that Bush and company had no real interest in pursuing M$. They said as much during the 2000 election campaign which is why M$ did their best to drag the court case out until after the inaugeration. It payed off for them. M$ got a slap on the wrist and basically walked away unscathed.
As far as hurting consumers, M$ hurt consumers by limited their choices by preventing competition. The result is that consumers are stuck with shoddy and overpriced software with few options to shop elsewhere.
When all else fails, run.
Did the DoJ "roll over"? Did Bush order a lenient judgement? Is Microsoft really government-proof? The truth is, the answers don't matter one whit. No amount of finger pointing is going to help anyone.
Let me repeat that. No amount of finger pointing is going to help anyone. Shocking but true. Bitching doesn't solve problems. So what do we do now that it's clear that the government isn't going to come to our "rescue" and slay the Evil Microsoft?
First, we need to throw away all our myths about being powerless. Microsoft is a natural market monopoly. They don't have any laws preventing competition with them (like the USPO does). Nor do they own the infrastructure (like the telco monopolies). As big as they are, they are still at the whim of the marketplace.
So use the market against them. Sell off any Microsoft stock you own. Don't buy any Microsoft products. Don't buy systems that have a Microsoft "tax". That's step one. It might not be easy, but it can be done. Stop buying your systems at BestBuy or CompUSA, and start buying them at the small mom-and-pop shops who will build you a custom system. Or build them yourself. Or buy a Mac. Then when you do, write to Dell, HP, Gateway, etc., and tell them why you didn't choose them.
Next step is to support the non-Windows operating systems, even the proprietary ones. You don't have to run them all, but you can certainly stop denigrating them. Stop bitching at the price of Macs and Sparcs. Even if they're too expensive for you personally, you don't want to discourage the people for whom they aren't too expensive.
Funny thing is, despite the Microsoft monopoly, there are others out there. Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, OSX, etc. Since this is Slashdot, odds are you probably use one of these already. Let your friends know you don't use Windows. Help your friends use another OS. Contribute to the Open Source project of your choice, even if it's writing docs or testing alpha and beta releases.
We gave Microsoft their monopoly. That's right, "we" did it. Despite their shady business tactics, it was ultimately we the consumer who chose to purchase Windows. Now it's time for us to take that monopoly away from them.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
If you are getting blank pages in Firebird 0.7 it may be due to /. returning http 503 errors. It appears that Firebird and, maybe, other related browsers do not show 503 errors, they just silently fail.
Microsoft's monopoly came largely in part due to agreements with computer manufacturers to ship their operating system pre-installed (even today most computers come with windows).
So the question is, if Microsoft DIDN'T have this agreement would they be able to charge aprox $200 for the "home" edition of their software? Can you imagine buying a computer first, then going out and choosing the excellence of Windows for just a low $200?
Basically, is Windows true market value $200?
"he drew his sword Ringil that glittered like ice... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds..."
Back in the days of the antitrust trial, Lewis was actually rather instrumental in explaining the legal mumbo-jumbo underlying antitrust to the ZD-Net community. I personally checked many of his assertions and never found an inaccuracy.
At one point though, Lewis just posted the same piece over and over and over again, with little variation. Users complained he was hogging bandwidth and as a result of those complaints he was booted on the pretext of having a URL in his signature. A few people cheered. A few people mourned. Most ignored his absence. When he was actually posting argument; he was well worth reading. When he was in diatribe mode; less so.
Personally, I wouldn't categorize him as a kook, and certainly I've not found a record of his JD (though I admit not having looked very well) so he may well be a legal hobbyist. Still, at face value his less-belligerant rants make for a good editorial opinion - simply don't appeal to him as an authority. Far better to read the case law and decide for yourself. Your clickage may not be commensurate with Lewis'.
JL'B
M$ was in fact found guilty of being an illegal monopoly in a court of law.
Actually, they were found guilty of abusing their monopoly status, a very different thing.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Here's a thought. Suppose Microsoft is destroyed and disbanded. That would open up a huge chunk of the IT market, and we'd see gazillions of startups, small and medium companies, with pricing structures along the whole range from free to heavily overpriced. A real IT renaissance.
Hopefully, She will keep brutally silent as MS plays its games with her. Like Teddy Roosevelt said, "speak softly, and carry a big stick" if she maintains absolute silence now, her smack down will be un-appealable! The Appeals court thought Jackson was HARSH, not WRONG! Also remember that MS made a fool of a Federal Judge...when they attempt to do it again, the Appeals court will be watching...and won't like what they see from MS at all! The appeals court didn't seem inclined to deal with any of the facts of the case, only the judge's behavior. Unlike poor judge Jackson, they don't have to discuss publicly their choices...only the final rulings. Stunts like MS's make for very bitter judges, but they only have to produce a neat ruling draft, and not the very sarcastic comments they are known to make while debating it! [read Supreme Court docs sometime to see that the higher courts don't take bull...or play "pretty" about it! They can be vicious even by /. standards.]
MS is too big and stuck on itself to learn to play nice at this stage of the game. They will screw even this joke of a settlemen up. Not IF, but WHEN!
If the 911 system screws up because of non compatable Microsoft interfaces,...then people can certainly die! If a hospitals pharmacy software or med imaging software screws up then ditto...etc..etc..etc. I will not name names and places but guess what, it happens, and MS gets away with it because they are not the vender responsible for the GUI that is tacked on to the MS servers. So trojans and worms are really a threat to these operations and have caused trouble and will continue to cause trouble because of the stupid MS .NET C# to OS communication protocols and their ability to infect client machines at the OS level. Strange that a Hospital now has to worry about computer viruses as much as real ones!
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Only if the emulator meets your needs. It would be a bit stupid otherwise, wouldn't it?
FWIW, you can find out whether it will run the programs you want by checking the website before you buy, running a demo, etc.
HTH.
Maybe redundant, but some may find this background interesting.
....Prior to 1998, the company and its employees gave virtually nothing in terms of political contributions. But when the Justice Department launched an antitrust investigation into the company's marketing of its popular Windows software, things changed. The company opened a Washington lobbying office, founded a political action committee and soon became one of the most generous political givers in the country."
From the page:
"
During 2000 - 2002 election cycle, Bill and Co. gave about $5M to Rep., nearly $4M to Dem., which are nothing significant for their bank account. Under the current administration, no one will ever come to harm Microsoft's monopoly. Period.
There is still a case existing: EU commissioner (competition) Mario Monti against Microsoft. Perhaps it would be better to focus on this case.
There is an article on EU Business: Microsoft faces 'final chance' in EU anti-trust probe from August. And Newsfactor thinks Don ' t bet on it.
The response of Microsoft is already very strong. They want to take the case to the US, where the justice system is probably more corrupt (home advantage). See Hindustan Times's Reuters article for more information on this issue. They present the same accusation in an more polite manner: "Microsoft Corp has been trying to drum up support among US lawmakers as part of its effort to fend off antitrust sanctions being considered by European regulators, congressional sources say.
With the European Commission weighing a fine and behavioral changes that could go beyond its US antitrust settlement, Microsoft lobbyists have taken their case to key members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, sources said.
While Microsft is under investigation because of its abuse of power, Microsoft propaganda requests stronger IPR law, criminal prosecution . They claim the proposed EURO DMCA++ (IP Enforcement directive) was not strong enough. Examine the horribleEU directive proposal paper by AEL Wiki (page of Association Electronic Libre, Belgium).
What I think is even funnier, and that no one ever seems to think about:
Microsoft Revenue: $52 Billion
Wal Mart Revenue: $244 Billion
Microsoft is big. They aren't that big though.
I think it would be a wise business plan for Wal Mart to purchase every outstanding share of Microsoft. MS' profit margin alone(74% in the Office business, according to B. Gates) should make Wal Mart jealous.
You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
is that there must be a monopoly. Personally, I believe that if M$ had not become a monopoly, no one would have! Why should Apple have become one?
There were a whole bunch of different operating systems, on different hardware platforms, poised to take off between the mid-80s and the mid-90s. What was it that crushed them--was it merely the presence of a bigger fish? Or was it the fact that the big fish was systematically going around eating and killing the little fish?
Apple's philosophy has always been different than Microsoft's. Where Microsoft has made things cheap and functional, Apple has made things solid and elegant. Where Microsoft has bought or squashed new, useful technologies, Apple has developed their own, or licensed existing ones. Where Microsoft lied, cheated, and stole their way to the top, Apple was still plugging away down there, making good, dependable hardware (generally) and elegant, well-written software to go with it.
Yes, there have been times when Apple did bad stuff, too; I'm not trying to paint them like some kind of saint. For a while, they lost their way, in the Amelio era, and they have done unpleasant stuff before & since, too. But they didn't make a pattern out of it the way M$ did.
I think that if Microsoft had not become the monopoly that they did, the playing field today would look totally different. I suspect there would have been at least ten major OSes (including Linux and its OSS brethren as maybe 2 of those), playing by a set of standards that mean that almost any software will run easily on most of them.
The worst part is how close M$ came to dying before it was even born. Have you watched Pirates of Silicon Valley? You should. The beginnings of Microsoft and Apple were both incredibly precarious. If one tiny decision had gone the other way, everything for the past 25 years would have been changed.
And, once again, I don't think that anyone but Microsoft would have become the monopoly that they did. No one else has the mindset that Gates does, that everything belongs to him. Jobs is a control freak too, but he just likes to control everything that does "belong" to him absolutely. Not make everything his.
That's the difference between Microsoft and Apple.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
You mention that there are genetic pressures towards pro-social behavior (or, to satisfy the purists, genetic pressures towards biological features that in turn encourage pro-social behavior).
However, you neglect the other side of that coin: a society (or genetic population) where pro-social behavior is the norm is itself an environment with genetic pressures towards anti-social behavior. A big network of bonds of trust is a network of opportunity for one willing to abuse those bonds.
It's just as inevitable as evolution itself, I'm afraid: if genetic pressures can and do push for cooperation, they can push back for defection. As Jack Handey said: "I can imagine a world without war, a world without fighting, a world without weapons. Then I can imagine us attacking that world, cause they'd never see it coming."
If people are to respect the law, perhaps the law should begin by respecting the people.
I don't know ... CAN a President pardon a corporation? I know the law maintains this fiction that a corporation is a legal "entity" for certain purposes but I'm not sure that that entity can be pardoned. But maybe it can. Any lawyers out there that can answer this question?
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
No, it was NOT under the election system of the US. It was a selection by the SC. They stopped recounts mandated by the Florida Constitution and recognized by the Florida Supreme Court, declared W to be the winner and stated that any further recounts would cast doubts on their selection. While he may be in office, all I'm doing is noting that he is the Selected President*. Why does ignoring Republican spin and pointing out the reality of the situation irk some folks?
As for your second paragraph, it made a huge difference. The "Justice" Department, after winning the civil case under the previous administration and holding all the cards, suddenly decides "Let's Settle" under the current administration. And then they set the terms so lax and pathetic that calling it a slap on the wrist is an insult to slaps on the wrist everywhere.
So, with a "fix" that is specifically designed to forbid use by the only competitor, why would anyone think that the fix would ever work?
The APIs and file formats for Windows and Office need to be public and open to all, no exceptions, no licenses. The document formats are in many ways more important, even; it makes no sense that much of the world's public records are only accessible via a private gatekeeper.
- David A. Wheeler (see my Secure Programming HOWTO)
The next time I get mod points, I'm using them all to mod you down.
For a statement like this, you should be permanently banned from moderation. (Kind of like the jerk/enemy that routinely hits me with five Overrated mods on unmodded posts -- at least have some balls and don't hide from metamods) Moderation should be done on a post by post basis.
Put identity in the browser.
My take on copyrights is:
1. That I believed that Congress was mandated not to establish kingdoms, monarchies, or any other set up where one person, group, or organization could control things for long periods of time unless it was a government run entity. 275 years is a long time. I know I will be dead, my sons dead, their sons dead, and so on for up to fifteen generations.
2. That each generation (ie: 20 years) is supposed to be given the chance to build upon the work of the previous generation without having to worry about owing the previous generation anything (like royalties). See the rules about The Patent Office for more information. Current copyright rules have destroyed this balance.
3. I am in favor of:
3a. Copyrights.
3b. Of the author being paid for their works.
3c. Of extending copyrights to the life of the author so long as the author is being paid for his/her work.
3d. Of the author being able to lease his copyrights.
4. I am not in favor of copyrights being bought or sold but that is just because I believe it muddies the water over how long a copyright should last. The person or entity who buys the copyright wants to make as much money as they can on what they paid out money for. As such, they have a vested interest in extending the copyright.
5. I am also in favor of having a group of small businesses get together,reviewing, and rewriting the copyright laws from the standpoint of those who are most affected by the changes in the DMCA. It would be interesting to have non-multibillion dollar companies present their views on what Congress did.
As as side note: I have heard (and someone please correct me if I am wrong) that one of the reasons for the extension was because people were living longer. My rebuttal to this is that whomever said this was not lying but they were not speaking the truth either. That is because the length of time people are living to be is still the same but the number of people living to that age is increasing. So the number is only increasing because there are more people living in the world and not because they are living a greater number of years.
To back the above up I refer people to Plato's "The Republic". In the section on when should men and women be allowed to procreate, Socrates replies that men between the ages of 25 and 55 may have children and women between 20 and 40. Now, ask yourself - if men lived to be 55 (and older) centuries before Christ came along, how can someone say we are living longer in terms of years?
Someone put a black hole in my pocket and now I'm broke.
During 2000 - 2002 election cycle, Bill and Co. gave about $5M to Rep., nearly $4M to Dem., which are nothing significant for their bank account. Under the current administration, no one will ever come to harm Microsoft's monopoly. Period.
This is what is called a Shake Down.
The politicians weren't making enough money from Microsoft, but were making a lot of money from KPCB-venture group companies including Oracle, Sun, Apple, etc.
As such, the California guys paid for an antitrust trial with their campaign contribution. Once Microsoft started paying cash to politicians - as they 'should' have been doing all along - the problems for them stopped.
But hey, as long as the system works in your favor you really don't care about that, do you? All you care about is that Microsoft has figured out the game, and is now immune from it. Never mind that it was the game that got Microsoft into court in the first place.
Coming soon - pyrogyra
The way to beat microsoft is to consistently build better products. Products that do things Microsofts don't, offer choices Microsoft won't, or provide economies that Microsoft can't are the key to dislodging them.
I agree, but when future patches of Microsoft's OS or releases of new hardware deliberately cripple or make these "better products" cease to be supported or function properly, that crosses the line.
When you truly create a better product, and Microsoft bundles a competitive product for FREE with their next software release, it's hard to compete. When you do have a better product and Microsoft funds a legal effort to discredit the integrity of your product founded on unstable premises, that's not competition. When you're trying to develop a superior product and the overlord of the OS refuses to release information on the platform needed to make your product compatible, that's not fair competition.
This is not a level playing field where the best product wins. So your argument is weak.