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Are MMORPGs Too Complex?
Thanks to Skotos for their column discussing whether MMORPGs are sometimes too complex for the average gamers. The writer suggests: "Often, I just want to sit down and do something simple and fun. Yet, the structure of most MMOGs doesn't accommodate this", and goes on to illustrate this, arguing "It seems like many MMOGs lately are tending more toward 'have fun doing your tax forms online while paying for it.'" The piece also discusses boredom: "How many MMOGs have the ability to mine/farm/fish/collect wood? How many are there in which this is NOT just a repetitive clicking of the mouse based on the computer response?", and putatively suggests a solution of "play[ing] Tetris to mine faster", coincidentally implemented by the recently launched Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates.
The next MMORPG i make an investment in has to have an excellent trade skill system. And I don't mean just collect items, put them in a bag and hit combine. I want something as detailed as the one in ATitD, but simplified graphically (the GUI for some of the tradeskills in that game is very confusing at times).
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I see these things more than SCO stories. All this is old stuff anyway and has been thoroughly discussed (and solved) on various MUD sites. For the history-impaired, a MMOG is a MUD with graphics and lots of players.
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the answer is no. people for now play the games. no game will please all players, for now there is a market that stays in buisness selling complex MMORPGs
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altough not an MMORPG by any means, I could sit down and fish for hours in Zelda 64. The fishing had very little to do with completing the actual game, but it was done in such a way that it was quite addicting and rewarding. wasn't just a "push button to cast, push button to reel in", but the camera followed the lure as it sank into the water, giving a nice visual of the size of fish nearby. Catching was just as fun, as you had to wiggle the lure just enough to draw the fish attention, but not so much to scare him.
Whenever i got stuck in the game, or was slightly bored, fishing always was a good way to pass some time in a very enjoyable manner. the inclusion of little things like this could potentially get me interested in a mmorpg. weekly bass fishing tournaments; with the trolls doing a little spearfishing.
I think Asheron's Call 2 is a good indication of what happens when you try and DUM things down too much. The game wasn't any fun and is pretty much a failure.
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Are you asking me? Uh, sure, they are.
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Actually, the problem that I run into more often than not if that the skill systems aren't complex ENOUGH. When I raise a level in a skill, I want it to be because I actually learned and got better at something. As it stands, most MMOGs use the model of "try, try again," where, for example, in smithing, you WILL break the item, or create something entirely useless on your first, oh, 20 tries. While 20 may not seem like much, when the process takes maybe 5 minutes each time, and costs you (fake) money every time, it gets very annoying quickly. On the other hand, if I had figured out what was going wrong on the 3rd try, and changed my process, I could be making the desired item more effectively and quickly. Of course, that's entirely moot if the key is something simple that everyone could figure out relatively quickly (or look up somewhere online, in guide-form), but the time-sink isn't a very good alternative.
I really doubt that MMORPGs will ever become mainstream, at least not the UO, Everquest, combat heavy ones. Having programmed MUDs back in the day, these exact discussions came up all the time, and the reality is that there are many flavors of gamers, and different games will appeal to different subsets. However, the "mainstream" gamer just flat out doesn't have time or interest to invest in a MMORPG.
I did have some hope that the Sims might be innovative enough to pull in the casual gamer, but it didn't happen. It appears that the "casual" gamer is happier with a chat window they can minimize when their boss/spouse/parent/etc walks by more than they want a full screen gui. Why? Because casual gamers see right trough the "game" (which doesn't interest them) and realize instinctively that this is a very attractive chat room.
Puzzle Pirates frankly has more hope because it plays on the favorite things of the casual gamer. Chatting and simple puzzle games. Popcap + AIM. Most "hardcore" gamers would prefer to be kneecapped than be caught playing something like that though, so I doubt the gaming press will see it for what it is.
Sig under construction since 1998.
For Sony's Star Wars: Galaxies MMORPG, programmer Ryan Palacio was seized by weird inspiration and, while no one was looking, created the most in-depth fishing simulation for any online RPG. It's quite amazing.
In SWG you can fish in most any sizable body of water, but different parts of a given lake provide better fishing at different times of day. The fish you catch vary by planet, of course, but also by region of the planet, and they have different nutritional characteristics. Very rarely you hook, not a fish, but some item from the game's spawn tables -- not lightsabers or Imperial AT-AT walkers, but just about anything else you can get or make in the game, including droids. There is no Fisher class, but it's possible to make a living fishing.
Ryan's managers were a bit bemused when he revealed the full extent of the fishing simulation. But ultimately they shrugged and said, "Well, why not?"
As with most any system in an online game, some players loved the system passionately and wanted even more detail. I don't know whether Ryan ever got around to expanding the fishing system, but I hope so. He seemed to really enjoy doing it.
Mini Games are a must . Gambling , Fishing , Hunting (not for XP or Combat) , card games , etc... would keep people online with RPGs. there.com is pretty user end controlled & the whole game is like one big "mini" game. I mention there.com because in general its way ahead of the pay-to-clicky-clicky-kill games of EQ , AC etc... but very easy user controller economy unlike EVE Online (which shoulda been called Trade Wars Online , now in SPACE!) MMORPG needs to be easier to play & they need to have easy & fun distractions to do (your paying to have fun , incase everyone forgot that games are entertainment) MMORPGs also need to be 90% player controlled. Most people like to follow the KISS (keep it simple stupid) rule of running things. Just like Mini Games ;)
"taking over the world , one lego at a time"
Looking over the current, generous offering of MMO titles on the market, and the sheer amount of bugs they include, I'd say that these games are too complex for the developers, let alone the players.
no.
I miss all of the more linear RPGs of old; you didn't have to form parties and invest tons of time into it just to gain a level, or camp an area to fight a monster there that spawns in 2 hours.
-Magiluke
Earl Grey, Hot.
MMORPGs are RPGs played online. RPGs are designed to be complex.
the ones which are NOT complex are the rare ones because the genre is not looking for simplicity - it CRAVES complexity. You are playing the wrong genre and not looking hard enough for the niche game to fit your needs. Don't bend the genre, use your noodle!
World of Warcraft / Toon Town is designed for simplicity - you will like that, everything else is for ME not you. Or get a 3d chat room.
Back when I played ATITD, one of the activities that always needed to be done was create charcoal. Charcoal making consisted of sitting at an oven, and adding wood or water, and changing the ventilation on the oven. Your skill at how well you could do these things directly affected how quickly you made the charcoal, and how much wood it took you.
Problem was, everyone hated to do it. Something about how it required attention and was a bit stressful made it entirely unappealing.
Perhaps what we really need isn't mini-games, but using other aspects of the game like exploring in order to be more effective.
We've upped our standards. Up yours.
You rarely read a book with page after page detailing how the main character fetches wood in the forest. That is the kind of thing the character should do when the player is not online.
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MMORPGs are simple. They are for the most part very simple. The thing is that people are so desperate to get an edge that they take mind numbingly simple game mechanics and try and combine them in a way that is complex to get a small advantage. The game is still simple though, and for people not looking to min/max, most MMORPGs are less stimulating then minesweeper. This is, in my opinion, why many people don't like MMORPGS (myself included). The mechanics are deathly simple and boring, and I simply don't care enough to try and manipulate the game in absurd ways to get some small advantage.
MMORPGs need MORE complexity. With more complexity they could be interesting to play. Instead of string together simple and boring game mechanics together to try and create something complicated, people could find complexity and intrigue that they are looking for without having to go hunt it down. Complexity in most MMORPGs is deeply hidden and will require levels of tedium that the average sane player is simply not willing to put up with to find. If the complexities are clear and out in the open, then the masses will find these games as interesting as the guy who sets all his skills just so with tedious precision to get a certain effect.
MMORPGs are complex if you are willing to endure untold amounts of tedium to find that complexity. If you are not willing to put up with that level of tedium to find the complexity then the game is simple and boring. MMORPGs need to bring their complexity to the forefront of the game and make it accessible to everyone, not just the one addict who is willing to divine the games damage formulas to do the most possible amount of damage. Bring complexity to a place where you don't have to be an addict to find it, and people will start to play these games casually. Until this happens no sane person is going to shell out money for a boring and simple game that any monkey could play.
If the tasks were simple and easy like the average gamer wants then the games could be mastered in a short period of time like a couple months (like those the average gamer plays).
This isn't valid for the audience that plays these games (largely consisting of old AD&D'ers moving to digital form). AD&D was too complex for the average video gamer and hence these games will be too. To be honest these games are far simpler than their old pen and paper counterparts.
From a business prospective it makes no sense either... a mmorpg that stops getting played after a couple months is worthless. Players are better hooked for terms of years to compensate for the drastically higher developement costs. Currently these games (such as DAOC with the TOA expansion) are THE example of state of the art graphics.
Don't you mean There? .
Plastic Squid Harmless Toy
Here's the REAL goal list, let's see what the /. community can think of on those points.
:-P. If you manage this one, You'll probbably be the first to make an MMO with an open economy (i.e. an economy that can grow. An economy that can contain more _real_ money than the sum of what all the subscribers paid. An economy where everyone can become richer, as opposed to an economy where for every dollar that player A withdraws in real cash, player B must pay said doller, and that's without mentioning the operator's fee)
:-)
There's an enoumous drive for skill points in these games. Those are likely valued higher than money, and a more stable (albeit untradable) property. Since people excert so much energy to boost their stats (or gain money), why not take a ride on this and turn the stat/money acquiring process into:
a. Something that is actually productive in the real world. Manually decrypting 3DES, I dunno
alternatively, b. Something that is productive within the game. That too is harder than it sounds. Having players build their own maps/levels that will incorporate dynamically into the world? Have them contribute artwork? too few people can do that. Have them contribute lawyer/accountant/coder skills? Have virus-writing contests? It's still too narrow to invest in a game that will facilitate it. How about a game where you "add" non-game-related-activities that apply to people who have real skills in the real world?. It's just a mishmash of ideas, but maybe if I raise the question, someone will think of an answer
alternatively, c. Something that is FUN TO DO. Here are some examples:
1. Arcomage
2. Tetris, like the article mentioned
3. If you're completely unimaginative and see only black when you close your eyes, I think even chess/backgammon would do. Hell, Chrome incorporated the oldest memory-game in the book while hacking computers (as opposed to watching progress bars) and That old 'Broken Sword' quest had you playing arkanoid while waiting for saved games to load.
And only if all else fails, d. Repetitive mouse-clicking on a single point on your screen that can be done by anyone with the IQ of an oat.
Now [a] and [b] are definitely very serious challenges, both in the thinking and implementation categories. [c] is easy in both, but nobody does it. All MMO's just go for [d]. Am I the only one whose intelligence feels insulted here?
And am I hearing the words "Market Opportunity" reverberating in the brain of some investor who is reading this?
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Did anyone ever play that? It was a really simple, really fun, multiplayer game (the 20-50 people that played each game is massive enough for me). Basically you picked one vehicle from C&C, and your job was to destroy everyone else in that particular game (oh yeah, and collect power-ups to help you). The games were really short, and I think the only drawback of it was that back then very few people wanted to pay for a game that you could only play on the internet, and games like that require a lot of players to be on at once.
Funny enough it sounds almost like a multiplayer version of the snowball game in the column.
And before you say this is off-topic, the story was talking about MMOGs, not just MMORPGs.
For some serious, insightful discussion on how to create good MMO(RP)G's. Pitfalls to avoid, what players like, what players think they like but should actually be avoided etc etc, Sigil Games has a very good community. Visit their forums here!
(These are the guys who made the original EverQuest, for the most part)
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Button mashing and time sinks are both terrible attributes of most MMORPGs I've seen and played.
Button mashing doesn't specifically refer to "Click the button as fast as you can," but refers to the one-click playstyle of most games, which, in a real time environ, can be exceptionally bad for people with substandard connections (lag). On top of that, your only primary advantage over many game's enemies is your ability to spam spells over and over again.
What we need is a more turn-based game which facilitates strategy other than "Spam (insert skill here)"
However, time sinks are the other big concern. This means two things are in effect: First, the game is set up so it takes an absurdly long time to go from level to level. Second, a number of people who have no life will sink well over sixteen hours a day into the game, unveiling all the secrets and inner workings in a few days (Proof by exception: SWG's Jedi. Since no one has done it yet, everyone's convinced it doesn't exist in-game yet.). In most regular RPG's it takes a few weeks to hit level sixty. In most MMORPG's it takes a year or more or dedicated playing.
The only way I can think of to counter this is to allow logged-off players to continue to be doing something constructive; I'd like to think that my character just doesn't magically disappear when I've stopped playing.
Whats being complained about is one of the things that defines the type of game they're complaining about.
There's no way this story would have gotten any airtime if the complaint had been "There's too much physics in flight simulators!" but in essence, thats what this one is.
Lets take a look a couple of his points -
1 - He doesn't like the complexity... too complex. Complexity comes from flexibility and choice. The more choices, the more varied the result is going to be. 2^n.
They're designing worlds for people to play in, so of course its going to be complex.
2 - Forced to interact with people
Um, yeah. Thats what an MMORPG is about... you interact with them.
This person isn't talking about whats wrong with MMORPGS, he's talking about why he doesn't like them. Quick! Someone charge them a monthly fee to play pong by themselves!
One of my favorite trade skill systems of all time was in the original UO. You didn't just mine the ore, you had to find the mountain that had it, then use the pick....then take the ore and smelt it into ingots, then smith it into something.
But you see what the article is talking about? User interaction is limited to making menu selections. Mountain X. Harvest with Y. Smelt At Z. 1% chance of success. The character gains skills, but the player never does. And without required player skill, a game will never make mainstream.
Japanese cooking simulations, silly as they may be, are a good example of how to handle an in-game skill system while relying on the skill of the player. Use left analog stick to slide hand across while using right analog stick to chop. How long have your other vegetables been cooking? Quick, Swizzle those noodles! More customers coming in, better get ready for the rush...
All of this, of course, requires a great deal more development than "Click to add carrots. Click to turn on stove."
What is needed is a Mall system, whereby independent developers produce the games for a title, and are paid based upon the number of subscribers and the percentage of time they spend at that game. Of course, there would need to be lots of oversight, so that the "click name to cast spell" could eventually be replaced by a more complicated "Move mouse in pattern around circle to cast spell" and finally a "move mouse in pattern within the rythim of your chanting into a microphone."
Note all of the above examples require skill on the part of the player, not just the character. People play games to become better themselves, not just to boost the stats of their pet. As long as MMPORPG's focus exclusively on stats building and not on player building, non-core will stay away in droves. That will mean taking some risks, both with client-side cheating and in terms of development models. However, the simplistic "Click Click Click" model to protect against lag and the extremely laggy server side model to protect against cheating have hamstrung development to the point where it isn't worth playing 99% of the MMPORPG's out there. Move back to a skill-based system and players will respond. PlanetSide has proven that.
The ______ Agenda
There's always Diablo II, seriously. There's really no commitment (money or timewise) and you can always save and exit in a pinch. It was a great game when I had only have 15-20 minutes to play at a time, and levels and loot came quickly. That was pre 1.10 patch, so "quickly" in hell mode might be incorrect.
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hecubas
Hecubas
My main fear about joining an MMOG is that I'll make friends, then ditch them for my real friends, and then everyone will hate me because I chose RL over the fake one. So I'd probably have more fun in a game where working together isn't that important.
"I only speak the truth"
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They're not too complex, but you can't enter into the game later, as established players will have corporate knowledge that you won't.
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underneath a hundred million formulas stats abilities and attributes, everything boils down to a handful of optimal strategies. all the complexity boils down to nothing.
the problem is that games arent complex enough for there to be real game dynamics.
I think complexity from a game-player standpoint is something that most MMOGs do not suffer from. While I agree that execution of trade skills needs to be more interesting than 'click-fail-click-fail-click-fail-click-succeed- skill+1, I don't believe that alone will solve the problem. As many have said, content is what would make these games sufficiently complex to appeal to a larger audience. Here's something I haven't seen suggested before though, which I think might break the pattern of the leveling treadmill:
Significantly reduce the experience gained by accomplishing something in-game once your character has done it. If I've beaten the UberWeasel before, repeating that should be worth much less to my character.
This would significantly reduce 'camping' and encourage exploration to find new areas and quests. This would also feel more realistic. Once I learn the UberWeasel's weakness, the knowledge I gain from exploiting it a second time, should be less. Perhaps many of the game companies avoid this because they realize they don't have enough content to satisfy players if 'repeat camping' were not a useful strategy, but a game which encouraged more exploration and discovery rather than rewarding the treadmill would certainly appeal more to me.
I could take this idea lots of directions too. Continue reducing experience by some small amount for repeats...so maybe 2 or 3 times is worth it, but moving on will before long be more worthwhile. Apply this to quests as well, to discourage repeats there. Some games may have the content there, but many never see it because they are sadly pulled in by the allure of the treadmill.
Summary: New experience should be gained by "new experiences".
To complain that MMORPG'a or even MMOG's in general are too complex is like complaining that your new car has too many buttons.
Yeah, sure there are a couple of fantasy online games out there that can be complex, but it's like anything else, if you find it too hard, don't play it. I'm sure you can play chess or checkers online.
Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things. - Peter F. Drucker
What I tend to find is that most RPGs, not just MMORPGs have high mind goals. Yet, when you break the game down to a series of steps it follows one of two paths.
1) The Fetch Mission. Go to person. Get mission. Kill something the way to point X. Get object at point X. Kill something on the walk back from point X to person. Give object to person. Person thanks you and gives you something.
Should this get old.
2) Level. Go to woods. Find something to kill. Kill it. Get points. Repeat. At such time as you level, get a cool new ability to help you kill things more effectively.
I don't mean to sound like a troll but every MMORPG / RPG I have ever played can be described in those 2 actions (perhaps I've been playing the wrong games) So the answer to this question in my mind, "Are MMORPGs too complex?". A simple answer. No.
MMORPGs are fun for me when I believe in the world. Eq is the only game that ever did that for me and I loved it.
I stopped playing for the same reason: things came along and broke my belief. The character models changed totally modifying how I looked. A lot of people left to go to DAOC making the world feel a lot less permanent (real) than before.
Make me believe in a virtual world and give me things to do, fun people to hang out with and that's just fine.
Complexity/levelling/etc. I was an enchanter and I know there were a lot of tactically challenging situations, especially in dungeons and stuff. Situations where you were on the edge of your seat wondering whether you'd survive or not. That castle next to Lesser Fay was a particular favorite or mine. Awesome stuff!
If you don't believe in the world, there's not really much point, might as well just play Renegade or whatever.
It's fun but I play a very simple MMORPG. It doesn't consume a lot of time but if I really wanted to develop a strategy for it, I could spend hours a day on it (as some have). I am more addicted to the forums there than the game itself to be honest.
MMORPG Fan? Prove your worth!