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Broadcom Accuses Atheros Of WiFi Pollution
eggboard writes "We just posted a story at PC World about 802.11g chipmaker Broadcom's claims that the high-speed 108 Mbps mode available in rival Atheros's AR5004G chipset disrupts all nearby Wi-Fi networks. The Turbo mode, part of Atheros Super G, uses two Wi-Fi channels (5 and 6) to double bandwidth, but Broadcom says this can lead to 'an enormous degradation in the speed of nearby 802.11b and 802.11g networks.'. D-Link and NetGear are shipping Super G-based devices. If Broadcom is right, Atheros gear would pollute neighbors' networks. If wrong, they're putting out a pretty heavy marketing smokescreen just before Comdex - where Broadcom says they'll be demonstrating the Atheros problem."
bwahahahaha! blackhawks down! take that evil empire! iraqi minutemen ROCK!
I havn't seen that guy around lately, did the aids finally get him or what?
Doesnt the FCC have to approve such item to be for sale in the US market, And part of the approval process is to check to see if the decive interfears with other electronic devices?
30% Troll, 50% Underrated, 10% Interesting
Score:5, Troll
Okay, so what happens when two Super-G networks are within interference distance of each other? Do they both drop down to 54Mbps speed, or what?
Wireless Incompatibilities Alleged
Chipmaker Broadcom accuses rival Atheros of being a 'bad neighbor' in wireless nets.
Glenn Fleishman and Nancy Gohring, special to PCWorld.com
Friday, November 14, 2003
Broadcom, the leading supplier of 802.11g chips for consumer Wi-Fi devices, is claiming equipment made by trailing rival Atheros Communications causes an enormous degradation in the speed of nearby 802.11b and 802.11g networks.
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The culprit: the 108 megabit-per-second Turbo mode in Atheros' Super G feature set, according to Broadcom. Super G is built into Wi-Fi adapters and gateways from D-Link and NetGear. Only devices from each of the companies can work at the higher speed with similar devices from the same companies; they are currently not interoperable. Also, the standards group Wi-Fi Alliance has not certified Atheros' Super G.
Claim Disputed
"We've done the testing with both the NetGear product and the D-Link product, and proved that it is bad neighbor technology," says Jeff Abramowitz, Broadcom vice president of marketing. Instead of the standard 54-Mbps throughput, nearby 802.11g networks even on different frequencies may deliver as little as 1 Mbps, he says.
Atheros dismisses Broadcom's claims. In its tests, the Turbo mode causes no more performance problems with other devices on the same or non-overlapping channels than a comparable 802.11g device, says Craig Barratt, Atheros president and chief executive officer.
Because Broadcom's claim should be testable and reproducible, Broadcom representatives say the company will release its methodology and results for verification. They plan to demonstrate the claimed performance problem at the Comdex trade show in Las Vegas next week.
As a market leader without a proprietary double-speed mode, Broadcom's public airing of their concern and their tests could raise eyebrows. Atheros has gained on Broadcom in market share, especially in dual-band hardware that supports both 802.11a and 802.11g in the same adapter or access point.
Conversely, Broadcom supplies 802.11g chips to the leading consumer manufacturers, including Cisco's Linksys and Apple Computer, and its customers have the most to lose if Atheros's technology does interfere with plain 802.11g. Broadcom's customers might also face eroding customer market share faced with a 108-Mbps alternative to standard 802.11g at 54 Mbps.
Mixed Results
D-Link spokespeople say internal tests of the company's XtremeG products, which use the Atheros chip, show only the same amount of degradation on neighboring networks that any nearby Wi-Fi network would cause. NetGear declined to comment for this story.
The Wi-Fi Alliance has certified D-Link's XtremeG PC card as an 802.11g product, and the access point is still working through the certification process.
NetGear does not list Wi-Fi certification on its site for this equipment, but displays its own seal for the device.
The Wi-Fi Alliance, while unwilling to directly address Broadcom's claims, plays a role in ensuring that certified products interoperate and don't cause harmful effects on other Wi-Fi certified products.
"If a product did not interoperate because in proprietary mode it broke the interoperability, that product shouldn't pass the certification program," says Frank Hanzlik, managing director for the Wi-Fi Alliance. "We could do an investigation and call for a repeal."
Repeated attempts to contact the IEEE 802.11g task group and the 802.11 public affairs group requesting comment were not returned.
However, Gartner analysts had cautioned about potential incompatibilities between emerging wireless technologies, shortly after 802.11g's debut. The research firm said products that are not certified by standards organizations may prove to have interoperability problems with other 802.11g devices, as well as with older 802.11b wireless LAN technology.
Wireless Technique
Atheros's Super G tec
It's true, they have the highest prices and they're bankrupt. The poor school district with their distribution center is short a HALF MILLION from them not paying their taxes. They are laying off teachers. BIG BEAR MOVES OUT OF COLUMBUS!!! PEN TRAFFIC!!!!! READ MORE HERE
declaring jihad on all slashbots for the 2k4 and beyond
I'd be inclined to side with Atheros if only because I hate Broadcom. Atheros actually makes effort to get their chipsets supported on OSS operating systems, Broadcom does not.
At least we can look at the source of our Atheros drivers to find out what its up to. Anyone seen an open Broadcom driver?
who gives a fuck, i go to kroger
Cars are different but mostly operate the same way from one to the next (BMW X7 joystick to the contrary).
A little required interoperability from the FTC in exchange for using our spectrum seems in order.
/.'s for fags!
decimation? appears so. lookout bullow.
/.puppets to determine which way the wwwind is bullowing at gale force/farce?
& oe =UTF-8&q=microsoft+%22bill+weisgerber%22&btnG=Goog le+Search
& oe =UTF-8&q=microsoft+%22sanjay+ahuja%22&btnG=Google+ Search
& oe =UTF-8&q=microsoft+attacks+linux+open+source&btnG= Google+Search
kind of LIEk va lairIE/robbIE's stuff that matters slowgun? participation buy omission?
you won't be needing any phonIE corepirate nazi FUDgePacking devices/?pr? ?firm? hypenosys
that's right, this stuff is unbreakable, wwworks on several (more than 3) dimensions, & the signal is always crystal clear.
'big science' will have to 'discover' it's conscience before it can tap into this stuff.
Two programs got the nod, so far. The top priority is planet/population rescue. Other goals mandated include the permanent disempowerment of unprecedented evile, & assurance that the planet/population is around to enjoy the gnu millennium of open/honest communications/commerce. Your grandchildren will survive to produce additional uses for the powers that are rescuing us from the greed/fear/ego based life0cide, as the lights come up...
consult with/trust in yOUR creator... get ready to see the light. there's never a cover charge/subscription fee. see you there? tell 'em robbIE?
even more corepirate nazi schemes eXPosed?
& what dispositions are to be considered for the felonious payper liesense softwar gangsters as they are rendered invalid, & more&more of their phonIE stock markup scams are known? maybe they'll 'release' linus, & put fuddles et ALL, in prison.
then, let's say fuddles IS the greed/fear/ego based massturdmined softwar gangster bankrolling the phonIE ?pr? ?firm? scriptdead attacks on the hobbyist dogooders. can we say fud wants more, has a conscience deficit, & no regard for the public/his hostages? we could easily say that.
talk about fauxking wags?
nothing gnu about this phonIE ?pr? ?firm? softwar gangster scriptdead crud:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
wag on at: http://www.trustworthycomputing.com
felonious softwar gangster execrable hired goons?
what else could it be?
Don't you just love the joys of unregulated spectrum usage? If someone can get 108Mbps out of thier wireless by using more spectrum, I say let them do it. As long as its within power regulations, I can fine tune my wireless around it. If I get really upset I suppose I can buy one of the super-g systems for myself.
When the FCC sais that anyone can use this swath of the spectrum for anything within these power levels, and someone makes a gadget that does so, people have no right to complain if it interfears with thier gadget.
Karma: SELECT `karma` FROM `users` WHERE `userid`=138474;
IIRC, the only regulations for those frequencies are power restrictions. Beyond that, you can do whatever you want. Even if it breaks everything else.
It may be that the FCC would consider two seperate broadcasts can only use half the power each, but I kind of doubt it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
So what!? It's unlicensed spectrum and they can do with it what they wish as long as they don't violate any FCC rules, which Atheros is clearly not.
Part 15 devices must accept any interference, including that which may cause undesired operation.
I'd personally like to see point-to-point 2.4GHz hardware that uses the ENTIRE spectrum for extremely high bandwidth applications... that'd be very cool
IIRC, there are at least 11 diffrent Wifi Channels to use.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I don't understand how, on a different bandwidth, this can cause a problem. Even if they're using two different channels, the phasing doesn't make sense to me.
What am I missing here? It looks suspiciously like a last-ditch ploy to try to take out a competitor who offers a better product.
Rather like the throes of death, although it's a little early in the game to predict that.
Damon,
http://actionPlant.com
Alot of gear operating in the 2.4GHz area uses the _whole spectrum_. Western Mux (Proxim?) makes Wireless T1 gear which seems to be very popular for backhauling traffic from Cellular sites. Power output is regulated, but not spectral efficiency.
Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a pleasure.
--Ambrose Bierce
I live on a suburb with several (20+) radiomodem access points - no cables, no ground lines, just several "clusters of houses" hooked to their antennas. Connections to several ISPs.
The network connection sucks.
At first it worked fine. I'd say it worked great. People heard it works great so they began installing the equipment themselves. The lines began disturbing each other, but it still worked okay. More people installed this, and the network quality began to suck really. So some of them, to overcome the noise, installed signal amplifiers for their antennas. Result? Everyone without amplifiers simply lost their connections completely. So people began installing amplifiers en masse, which resulted in that connection sucks for everyone again. My packet loss ranges from 10 to 60%. TV signal gets disturbed. Radio mice and keyboars don't work. Great, just great. And the ISPs just can't come to agreement on putting one, good, shared ground line.
Ether is a limited resource and wireless in larger amounts will suck, no matter what.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
G uses overlapping channels just like B does. So what's the big deal? You can only have 3 access points in the same area without interference even though there are 11 channels (I heard 4 if your creative, never tried it). Anyone who has tried setting this up in a corporate environment knows this, its old news.
Now if it takes up a total of 5-6 channels unlike standard G channels which only overlap with 2 others then it is news.
What limits throughput on a wireless connection? Is it broadcast power, frequency, amount of spectrum, or "c"?
Broadcom should release specs for their chipset, or code for their drivers, and then i'll take them a little more seriously (since Atheros chipset cards do work under linux). right now the only way i can use my linksys 802.11g card is with linuxant's windows driver wrapper software, and linksys emailed me saying they do not plan on releasing drivers for this card (WMP54G.)
I don't know about Atheros, but ever since my 2-floors-down-neighbor put up a D-link "b" access point, I can't connect to my bedroom (g) access point from my own living room, even though I've separated the channels (2 and 11). I am forced to connect to his.
Does anybody test for interference with these damn things?
So long as I get my connection at 108Mbps, screw everybody else. I don't give a damn if it pollutes other peoples networks.
Now, if you will excuse me, I'm off to pick up my new Hummer H2.
this is why my Dlink G network stopped working one day a couple of weeks ago. I was working just dandy for over two months and then it would only connect at 1-2 Mb. The connection would only last a minute or two and then nadda.
I know what the Internet is, what the hell is this Interweb business?!
here.
For the sake of relevancy.
Also, almost everything is GPL'ed. So: Atheros == good && Broadcom == bad;
With 12 more channels as of this past week, why would one fight over the crowded 2.4 GHz band? Unless one doesn't have a product for the less crowded 5 GHz band.
which leads to killing the wireless transmission.
See my post a bit below, and try to understand - if you don't give a damn, you will just force people to move to equipment like you have. And would you like to have 1K/s transfers like I have? Or days with ping like this?
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=801 ttl=61 time=179.688 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=1372 ttl=61 time=69.358 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=2020 ttl=61 time=139.666 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=2411 ttl=61 time=29.708 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=2735 ttl=61 time=29.201 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=2808 ttl=61 time=119.482 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=3540 ttl=61 time=1.239 sec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=3869 ttl=61 time=29.728 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=4420 ttl=61 time=59.605 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=4814 ttl=61 time=29.677 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=4877 ttl=61 time=129.729 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=4974 ttl=61 time=59.681 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=5243 ttl=61 time=269.733 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=5645 ttl=61 time=19.729 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=6015 ttl=61 time=399.669 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=6263 ttl=61 time=69.728 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=7126 ttl=61 time=49.671 msec
64 bytes from [provider]: icmp_seq=8205 ttl=61 time=139.727 msec
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Will Success Spoil Wi-Fi?
It's unlicensed, there is a big difference.
You cannot just use this spectrum however you see fit, there are rules, quite serious ones.
You have every right to complain if the device in question is illegal according to the regs.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I just realized that GWB's administration must have held back their most outrageous policies since GWB will have to run for the second term.
They've already destroyed our economy and international relations. Our sons are fighting a guerilla insurrection in Iraq and Afghanistan.
What are these idiots going to get us into if/when they get the second term?! I can't bear to think about it...
None of the non standard stuff is compatible with Linux so I don't (can't) use it anyway. D-Link's 22Mbps Dual-B (or whatever it's called), Wireless-G, 802.11 54G, Extreme-802.11b, [insert buzz word here], ...
How about Broadcom release the specs of their chips so that we can have more Linux Wi-fi support. It kills me that I have a card with one of their chips on it and it is USELESS to me.
afaik, the only thing what happens using Atheros is that is bundles 2 channels. If I would buy two accesspoints, place them on a different channel, stick 2 cards into my notebook and assign two well balanced subnets to my home network, speaking in terms of air waves I did exactly what Atheros did, just on a lower level. This way I can transfer (multiple) data streams at double data rate without harming any rules what-so-ever, exept for my neighbours who have less channels to choose out ;)
The 2.4GHz unlicensed band has 3 non-overlapping channels (1, 6 and 11). You can use up to three DSSS (Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum) devices in the same location without them interfering with one another to a great extent. This would include one or more Wi-Fi networks, 2.4GHz cordless phones (that use DSSS, not FHSS), Baby Monitor, etc.
Anytime you have more than three devices co-located some of them are going to interfere with one another. That interference is going to either degrade your connection speed or it's going to prevent you from being able to connect all together.
If this 108Mbps technology is truly setup to use channel 5 and 6, then Broadcom is right. It is going to interfere with 2/3's of the available non-overlapping channels.
On a quick side note, because wireless connections do not have collision detection, they have to rely on collision avoidance. Once a packet is sent the receiving station has to reply with a receipt acknowledgement before more data is sent, this basically works to cut the actual data transfer rate in half, not that it matters anyway, since almost all wireless networks are used for internet access from ISP's that are lucky to break 3Mbps.
Back to my point though...if you have a wireless network, then be a conscientious wireless user and keep to channels 1, 6 or 11. You can also use the site survey software that came with your wireless adapters to find out what channel other nearby users have occupied already so you can avoid those. Additionally, if you buy other wireless products, avoid the 2.4GHz band if you can. If you must get a 2.4GHz cordless phone or baby monitor then do your homework and strictly avoid those devices which use FHSS (Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum) - they are frequency hogs which have a tendency to kill other wireless devices.
Craenor - Senior Wireless Networking Specialist for Dell, Inc.
I have a D-Link 108Mbps (I love it btw, it is so fast!!!) And I have it hooked up to a 500mW (27db) 2.4Ghz Amp and a 9db Omni... 36db (4 Watts ERP) to be legal...
:)
Here is the catch... I also run 802.11b (Linksys)in the house with no problems. My 2.4Ghz Cordless does not seems to mind either... And Oh, I have no issue with any of the Bluetooth stuff I have like... Wireless Phone/Headset, Mouse, and Keyboard. I have 2 Aibo's with 802.11b wireless cards as well and they don't seem to mind.
Their claims are crap... The only effect I noticed is that it is a little warmer in the house... lol... jk...
Jesus Christ learn how to spell you fucking euro.
If you place Adtran Tracers anywhere near an 802.11b cell the effect is rather like sandblasting a soup cracker. The Tracers split the band with one end using the lower half and the other using the upper. They bridge ESF T1 frames so their utilization of spectrum is always 100% whether they're idle or not.
Broadcom is just producing either a concatenated 108 mbits by using two channels at once or they're producing a full duplex 54 mbit 802.11g connection.
The FCC will not do anything about this sort of thing. As an unlicensed band user they'd prefer that you just drop dead.
Unlicensed band may work well in unpolluted rural areas with one carrier but in metro areas it is pretty much a disaster in the ISM band and the same troubles are starting to happen in the UNI (5.8) band as well.
If your business plan depends on flawless throughput in the ISM band please send me your home address - I'll come over, kick your ass in your driveway, steal a bunch of stuff from your house, and we'll call it good - the financial effects and suffering are the same but you get it all compressed into a few short minutes of fun, instead of spending a year of your life flushing your money along with investor's dollars.
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
at the Austin ITEC show
Wine, music and cinema are the three great creations of humanity. -T'Ian Han
Everyone say 'Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww' :)
Some people have told me that it is possible to modify the hardware or purchase hardware from outside the US which uses different frequencies to get around this. Yes, it's illegal, but with this much RF pollution, would to be possible for the FCC to triangulate your location (say, inside an apartment building), and would they even care (assuming you weren't interferring with anything local).
OTOH, that happens when everyone starts doing this? God forbid when software radios become popular and people start trashing the entire usable spectrum?
I just can't muster any sympathy, or even make a move toward sympathy.
Broadcom continues to just give the finger to anyone who wants to develop drivers for their products. To me, that makes all Broadcom products DEFECTIVE PRODUCTS, and it also puts Broadcom very high on the list of companies that I would enjoy watching go out of business.
It's because of Broadcom that there is currently NO 802.11g solution for Linux, and nearly no 802.11b solution. Sure there are cards that use Prism2 chips, but does your vendor sell them?
Where do you go for wireless hardware that has a prior assurance that it will work under Linux? I know of none. Maybe 3Com, but if so, it means that if you choose to run linux, you are forced into a more expensive solution for some hardware. Hardly a good thing!
I was buying Linksys cards, for the simple reason that they were compatable with Linux. I bought several more with the exact same product number, and guess what? The chip had changed from Prism2 to Broadcom without any notice at all. D-Link did the same thing with the DWL-520 (but at least they changed the model number slightly, if still misleading: DWL-520+), and today there is NOTHING at any of the brick-and-mortar retailers.
at first i read "AtheOS"....
When the socialist revolution comes, radio spectrum (like all resources) will be democratically assigned.
Now as you see, when we flip this switch....
"Ah, fuck, my pacemaker!"
-- thinkyhead software and media
Yeah.
:-0
I was kind of in a rush to post this one. Maybe I shouldn't have tacked on that last part...
At least we got drivers for the gigabit ethernet ports. A good thing since now that they can be found in IBM's Intel servers. ;)
because it is a joke, isn't it?
__
Sig: Marine Stock Photos
Stock antennas are pretty unimpressive and leave a lot of room for improvement.
Antennas are cheap, especially if you build your own, and they don't burn up battery power.
Antennas work in two directions. An antenna with a better pattern improves your range for both transmit and receive. An amplifier on one side of a link doesn't help you hear the other side any better.
Antennas with radiation patterns that match where you need the network reduce interference coming in as well as interference going out.
Mesh networks offer the possability of having each node pass a note to the node closest to them in the direction of the node they are trying to reach. They only have to speak loud enough for that closest node to hear, making meshes a lot more scalable. Like passing notes in high school rather than shouting across the room and getting the teacher pissed off at you. :)
I suspect that as wireless devices become more popular we'll need something like mesh networks to make more efficient use of the spectrum. In fact, in a manner similar to Bittorrent and Freenet, the more people that participate in a mesh network, the more resiliant and speedy the whole network is.
sb
Atheros' CEO is a perl hacker, so I guess that this would mean that whatever they do, it will be good, no?
Related is this petition:p etition.htm l
http://www.petitiononline.com/BCM4301/
entitled
"Broadcom BCM4301 Drivers for Linux"
I need such a driver to use the WiFi hardware
that came inside my Dell Inspiron 8200 laptop.
Ok, so let me get this straight - Atheros is producing a WiFi AP that intereferes with all nearby APs, rendering them nearly inoperable... Microsoft ships Windows with IE, and makes it difficult for Netscape and similar to work properly... Whats the difference?
Learn about Photography Basics.
Broadcom has withheld specifications and driver support for Linux. Just try to get drivers from Linksys or Broadcom - I have to no avail. Yet, we know they have them.
Atheros on the other hand has released them; although not entirely open source. Get them at http://sourceforge.net/projects/madwifi/
So to me it sounds like Atheros chips are a much better way to go. And Broadcom looks like it's statements are spoiled marketeers loosing market share.