Rules for Teenage Internet Access?

Kent Brewster writes "Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms. We've got a nebulous set of rules, which include several like these: Keep the door open when you're on the computer. Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past. Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing. Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific. We'd be very interested in hearing from both sides of the fence: parents with Net-connected progeny, and those who are chafing under their rule. Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines? Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? Do they actually make a difference in your behavior, or do you just sneak past them anyway? Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"

Comments

Trust them

[r_glen]

By age 15, I'd be concerned if they weren't yet looking at porn.

As far as the "don't quickly exit from everything" rule, I think that's a bit unfair... there are plenty of legitimate reasons they might want to (emails, IMs, etc.), and even the naughtiest of children should feel they have SOME privacy. Besides, knowing that you trust them is far more important for their growth than seeing a few naked women (masturbation discovery nonwithstanding).

Re:Trust them

[KDan]

Absolutely. Given how central the internet has become to many people's social lives, you may well find that they are exchanging messages with their sweetheart(s) and you have absolutely no business (as a parent or otherwise) being even aware of the specific existence of these messages, unless your kids want you to.

And if you're really worried about them finding bad stuff on the internet, why don't you take the slightly longer and harder route of actually educating your kids so they know why it is you would rather they didn't browse certain types of site, and let them browse them to get out the initial curiosity, and then you'll find that they won't bother because they're only interested in 'evil sites' because they're forbidden and they don't know enough about them. Forbidden + mysterious = surefire failure at what you're trying to do.

Daniel

Re:Trust them

[Anonymous Coward]

I am thirteen years old and have been allowed to have my own computer since I was eleven. My parents figured that I was a fairly clever kid who would have figured out a way of doing the wrong thing if i so pleased. I do not look at innapropriate websites--namely pornography, as a christian it goes against everything I believe in. Additionally, my parents are more likely to figure out what I am doing when I am on a computer, at their house. I agree that, in the end, it is simply a matter of trust. Plus, having a laptop hooked up with wifi rocks!

Re:Trust them

[oneishy]

While i agree that you should be able to trust your children, I see many other things from the flip side of the coin.

It IS a parents business to know what is going on in their childs life. That is nearly THE definition of an involved parent. Todays society shrugs that model but it is the parents job to help guide those *sweetheart* relationships (or to end them if needed).

KDan aparantly believes in teaching a child to do something once just to learn what it is, even when that something is wrong. I strongly disagree, and by following that logic through hopefully you will to. Example: Murdering is wrong but i should allow my child to experience it for themselves so that they *understand* murdering. Clearly that would not be good parenting. The same prinicple applies with many of the evils online (pornogrophy, violence, fostering bad relationships, etc..) A parent should not encourage these things simply so that a child knows, but rather should keep the absolute stand that they are wrong, and off limits.

KDan does make a good point about going the harder route and educating your children. It would be good to educate them on good morals, things of character and integrity rather than on bad symptoms that come from poor character and integrity.

Re:Trust them

[kfg]

I find the current trend to insist that people (and they are people, you have to remember that) under the age of majority remain children at least until crossing that arbitrary border is a bit bizarre.

As a parent I always considered it my duty to raise them to be adults. Have ever told your kid, "Act your age"? If so, didn't you mean "Act more mature"?

Well, then you have to teach them maturity, not childhood. Responsibility and self control, not outside control of their every movement. With maturity comes things you might not like. If your kids are past the age of puberty they are sexually mature, whether you are comfortable with that idea or not. They are going to act like they are sexually mature. They are also begining to think of themselves as themselves and not as your children. Help them to do so in a mature and reponsible manner.

Then you'll have to get out of the way. They'll make mistakes. Sometimes bad ones. Be there for them instead of flying off the handle. Don't think that if you just locked them up tighter the mistakes wouldn't have been made. They'll just be delayed until they're out there on their own without you to support them.

Isn't it a better idea to teach them how to deal with these issues in a mature fashion rather than try to deny that these things exist?

Then you're going to wonder why they go to college and go completely off the frickin' wall drinking, screwing and otherwise acting like children out of control.

Well, it's because you raised them to do that. You set them up for it.

The issue isn't so much how to control your kids, but how to control yourself to raise your kids as adults, not kids. Ultimately they are going to control themselves no matter what you do.

Think about it.

KFG

Re:Trust them

[Anonymous Coward]

you may well find that they are exchanging messages with their sweetheart(s) and you have absolutely no business (as a parent or otherwise) being even aware of the specific existence of these messages

Wrong!

Parent of 4 here, and while when I was a teenager I didn't think my parents had any business knowing anything about my private life, I've long ago learned that that view is the view of the child, not the parent.

A parent has a resposibility to be total aware of what their children are doing at all times. I don't need to know the specific CONTENT of a message, but I do need to be aware who they are chatting with, when they are doing it, and you'll better be damn sure I'll make sure that the other child's parents know it too.

We have 3 computers in my house, in public areas. If one isn't in use, any kid can jump on it, provided they've done their homework, had it checked by mom and dad, have done their chores, and haven't lost their computer priviliges for some infraction or other.

Yeah, I'm a neanderthal. I'm the worst parent in the world. My kids will be forever messed up because I make sure I know everything there is to know about their lives.

Of course, if being honor students, gifted muscicians, eagle scouts, and a 4 of the damn nicest people I've ever had the joy of knowing is "messed up" I'm also damn glad I don't take this view.

Re:Trust them

[be-fan]

Its not a matter of whether its your right. Its definately your right. But is it right? Growing up, my parents were always lax with the rules, but very firm about expectations. As a result, both me and my brother were forced to develop personal responsibility --- something that is far more important in the real world than adherence to specific rules. I think the ideal is to be extremely involved, but still give children a bit of breathing room so they feel comfortable.

Re:Trust them

[Mr. Slippery]

You have every right to be investigating every single aspect of your minor children's lives.

At age 7, yes.

If you still find the need to do so at 17, you are failing to prepare them for adulthood. (Not to mention that by the time they're a teen, you're going to find that it's not possible to continually investigate every single aspect of your kid's life.)

Re:Trust them

[orthogonal]

Yep. My house. My network. My rules. Period.

I control the router. I read the logs. When they turn 18, if they are still living in my house, we'll discuss it. Until then, what I say goes.

But if you control them until they're 18, when will they get the experience controlling themselves?

I think part of the point of adolescence is to allow them more self-control, so that they can gain practice in making their judgments for themselves, while you're still close enough at hand to be a safety net when they (inevitably) dare too much and make a misstep.

You probably taught your kids to ride bicycles. I doubt you "taught" them to ride by sitting them in a side-car attached to your bike until age 12, at which time you plopped them on a 10-speed without training wheels, expecting them not to fall just because they'd watched you balance, steer, and pedal for the last 12 years.

No, like any good parent, you got them a 3-speed, put training wheels on it, and ran behind the bike, holding the seat to balance it. And eventually they were pedaling too fast for you to hold one, so you watched them whiz away, waiting for that first skinned knee to bandage.

Rather than grep through the network logs, spend the time explaining to your kids why the values you live by are useful and effective values for them to live by. Talk about the mistakes you made, in hopes they'll more quickly recognize their future mistakes. Let your kids know that now is their chance to make mistakes, and now is when they still have the chance to come to their dad and ask for his help in correcting those mistakes.

Re:Trust them

[reverius]

Somebody mod this up. It's the most insightful thing I've read on Slashdot... nay, the entire internet... in a very long time.

I'm a recently-on-my-own "new Adult". I'm 19, and I'm a freshman in college. My parents were of the more relaxed "he can make his own mistakes" variety, and I'm incredibly thankful for it. If you don't let them -learn- maturity, they'll never have it. Then they'll be 19 and a freshman in college... and they won't know why it's bad to drink in excess 4 or 5 days a week. Trust me, I see it all around me. Adults acting like children.

Re:Trust them

[dbc001]

Example: Murdering is wrong but i should allow my child to experience it for themselves so that they *understand* murdering.

That's a terrible analogy. my dad gave me a cigarette when i was like 12, and i coughed for like 15 minutes. There was no way anyone could ever talk me into smoking a cigarette after that.

I plan on drinking my kid's first beers with them, and i plan on smoking the first joint with them as well. Both are very dangerous, but also quite normal and socially acceptable in moderation. similarly, it would be wise to talk openly with children about sex and sexuality (both must be done carefully of course) because if my kid is gonna be a perv, i would rather know about it than have him hide it and end up being a murderer/rapist because of pent up sexual frustration and aggression.

So what can we learn from the wonderful world of Internet Porn? Well, it turns out that everybody likes sex! Some people like it in different ways than others. Some people went through weird shit growing up, and now they get off on weird shit as adults. Who is to say what is normal and what is abnormal? As far as the kids go - you can't stop them from seeing porn. They will find it. And they will find the weirdest, nastiest shit you can imagine, far weirder than anything we were ever exposed to growing up. So your best bet is to work on building an honest, open dialog with them, and build a trusting relationship. If ya don't, your kids will still find the weird porn, but they won't be able to relate it to society, and they won't be able to bring it into the context of real people. They will hide it and keep it all inside, and that will cause much worse problems.

Re:Trust them

[timmyf2371]

Well, children do take after their parents.

I take it you don't mind your children turning into control freaks?

Re:Trust them

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with you!!!

I am only a teen-ager myself, yet my parents put forth there rules in a way that let me scrape my knees before i hit adulthood. I needed some freedom to experience things and decide if things were right or wrong for myself, not for my parents or any other influencing person in my life. This in return gave me a respect for my parents, making me want to obey there wishes of not viewing wrong material.

I speak for myself only now, I am sure that plenty of teen-agers in the world are going to get all over me for stating these things, because if some parents read this it might influence them. But I'm stating my beliefs...after all isn't that what /. is for.

Re:Trust them

[etymxris]

Of course, if being honor students, gifted muscicians, eagle scouts, and a 4 of the damn nicest people I've ever had the joy of knowing is "messed up" I'm also damn glad I don't take this view.

Actually, that is kind of messed up. I've never met a kid who aimed to be such a "perfect" child without being pushed or shamed by the parents.

When you teach a child to ride a bike, you eventually have to let go of the handlebars and let them go it alone. And they may crash, many times even. But that is life. Similarly, if you keep an omnipresent eye over everything your child does until they leave the house, how prepared do you think they will be to go it alone? Not at all.

The people I've met with overprotective parents inevitably went "wild" when they finally got to college. Those that didn't were somewhat "off", and had trouble interacting with the regular populace (and by "regular", I don't mean "party-goer").

As for me, my parents were practically negligent of my upbringing. I wouldn't suggest others treat their kids the same way, but I've turned out OK. When facing the challenges laid before me by life, such as whether to use drugs, whether to party rather than study, etc, I always knew I was on my own two feet. No one was there to catch me if I fell.

I never considered, "If I do this, what will my parents think?" They didn't really care one way or the other. Instead, I always thought, "What impact will this have on MY future?" Someone who's set about controlling another's life, whether with good intentions or bad, inevitably stands in an adversarial position to that person.

That person becomes your "enemy", whether it is spoken or not. Things become wanted and sought after not because of their intrinsic worth, but because in a struggle for freedom the child invariably "rebels" and strives to escape the shackles of the controlling environment. The child doesn't want drugs, or promiscious behavior, but really wants freedom.

Of course, this doesn't accurately portray every kid. There are plenty that pursue life's vices simply because they are bored or don't care, and get away with it because the parents are negligent. But you should keep in mind that your attempts to control your children are very likely to backfire later in life.

Kids want privacy, and freedom over their selves. Take those away, and they will hate you, whether they admit it or not.

Re:Trust them

[Penguin's Advocate]

When I was younger (age 11 thru 17) and still lived with my parents, they didn't have rules about the internet. I was the one who signed us up for an internet connection with my dad's credit card at age 11 (AOL 1.0...what a mistake that turned out to be...). Prior to that I had used the internet on my grandfather's 286 clone with dos and a 1200baud modem (seperate modems for data and fax). I was the one who from age 11 to age 13 kept upgrading my parents computer and modem. I have had several computers in my room since I was 9. I built my first computer, a 486, when I was 10 in 1994. I have built every computer I, my parents, my siblings, or most of my reletives have had since then. I convinced my parents at age 14 to get (non-AOL) dsl. I bought all the network equipment. I built the router (a bunch of garbage, quite literally, running linux) that ran continuously without any downtime whatsoever from then until I left for college 4 years later and bought my parents a wireless router as a parting gift. It was me, at age 14 running cat5 all over my house. It way my parents house, and their connection, but It was MY router and MY network and MY computers that they were were using. I read the logs, I knew where everyone went. And they had no idea, nor did they really care because my parents trust me, and guess what, I'm perfectly fine. I'm 19 now. I bought a house. (it was 100 years old, I gutted and rebuilt the entire thing myself, plumbing, electric, carpentry, sheetrocking, trim, everything, in 3 months). And now I have MY house, MY connection, MY network, and MY router and MY computers, and you know what? It's no different from when I lived at home. I'm independent, I'm halfway done with a BS in computer science at Renselaer Polytechnic Institute. I'm doing great, and I'm "only" 19. And the best part? It wasn't hard at all. I think it's total bull that a "kid" at 15 shouldn't be expected to be able to deal with the real world. I think it's a crock that people must be sheltered from reality for the first 18 years of their lives. If you don't expect responsibilty from a person who is 17, or even 13 or 14, why the hell should you expect it when they turn 18? There's no magic that happens between the last day of being 17 and the first day of being 18. It's not being 18 that makes you an adult. It's responsibility that makes you an adult. There are plenty of people who are legal "adults" who are most definitely not adults. I think people need to realize that humans are not equations and that numbers don't necessarily mean a damn thing. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm bragging at all in this, but I'm no super-genius or rich-beyond-the-need-for-intelligence guy. I'm just another "kid". I wasn't the top of my class in highschool, nor the second or even third (etc), and I damn sure ain't the top of my class in college (tho I'm not far). My father's a fireman, and my mom doesn't work, and I've got 3 (not so)little bro's. I consider myself average, and from that baseline I'm shocked at how few parent's trust their children, and even more shocked at how many children seriously don't deserve their parent's trust. The things people do to their children/parents/each other piss me off to no end. Ok, I guess I could probably go on for hours, but I have projects to be working on, so I'll leave you with that and this: In my opinion one should be expected to act and be responsible for themselves as an adult at age 13. I think the only reason this isn't currently the case is that not much is currently expected from parents or children, and that is a sad, almost sickening, reality.

Re:Trust them

[spoonboy42]

Well, I find that being able to outsmart one's parents definitely provides a measure of privacy. Here's a few steps you can follow at home, kids (don't forget NOT to ask Mom and Dad's permission):

1. If you have your own computer, install Linux. If your parents have ties to the NSA, better make that OpenBSD instead. The fact is that, unless one of your parents has a beer gut, wears t-shirts with slacks, and hasn't groomed their beard in a couple of decades, they don't know how to use UNIX. You could leave it logged in as root all the time, and they probably wouldn't know what the hell was going on (not that I'm suggesting you do that. Use strong passwords!).

2. Encrypt your data. You can do this on your own machine or the family one, doesn't matter. GPG is available for Windows, Mac, and loads of Unices. It's also a simple, unobtrusive command-line tool that you can use to pretty well scramble anything.

3. Hide your files. On UNIX machines where you have root, chown them to root, then put them in a directory that only root can read (su to retrieve them). If you don't have root on a UNIX box, at least give them the standard '.' prefix. In windows, I recommend tacking on a ".sys" extension and hiding them somewhere in the C:\WINDOWS tree. As far as Macs go, just use the ol' unix '.' trick, and Finder will be none the wiser (I think, I don't have a Mac to test this on).

4. Browse anonymously. Back when anonymizer was free, it was a great solution. Nowadays, you'll probably need a friend to set up a server in a safe, uncensored environment. I recommend school buddies with apathetic/permissive/hippie/workaholic parents, as this lessens the likelyhood that you'll run into trouble. A dedicated *nix server with a simple redirector CGI would be nice, but for all the legions of windows users out there, this would appear to be an excellent option.

5. Cover your tracks. Clear browser history. On Windows, clear the list of recently accessed documents. If you have root on a UNIX box, flush the logs.

6. Encrypt transfers. Enigmail for mozilla and the encryption plugin for gaim are your friends.

7. Make your data look innocuous. Chatting with some friends on IM? Why not chat in Arabic (if you're on an unecrypted connection, be aware that this method reduces the possibility for parental-snooping, but increases the likelyhood of unconstitutional racial profiling. You've been warned). If you don't have the time or inclination to learn a foreign language, at least learn ROT-13. ROT-13 is so simple that, after a few weeks of practice, the overhead for conversing in it online gets to be pretty low. Keep in mind that it's by no means secure, but it prevents parents from catching naughty words with their peripheral vision. If your friends aren't as "safety-conscious" as you, you can probably write a quick script to do ROT-13 on the fly to incoming messages. Learning to do RSA in your head would be truly impressive (I can do it with small keys with pen and paper, but nothing's stopping you short of the computational limit of the human brain)

The moral of this story is that clever children can cheat their way out of a lot of parental and societal rules. When I was living at home, I used some of the methods above to keep certain data safe (e.g. IMs with my girlfriend), but curiously, I didn't use it to browse porn and the like. The reason? My parents didn't constantly snoop to make sure I wasn't breaking the rules, they just raised me with the conviction that sexual intimacy is a beautiful thing between two people, and that commercial exploitation cheapens that, and they trusted me to make the right choices when they weren't around. If you never give your kids a chance to make bad decisions, they'll never learn how to make good ones.

Re:Trust them

[Deosyne]

My daughter recently started preschool. Last week, her daily progress report listed that she wandered off a couple of times without permission, tried to con another kid out of his lollypop, and kept wanting to explore other aspects of the lessons being taught. However, she did receive glowing praise for being quiet when she was supposed to do so. I was torn between concern and pride, concern that my daughter may have inherited her old man's more devious traits and pride at realizing that she is already showing a remarkable aptitude at them. ;)

Should my daughter someday learn to navigate networks undetected, I'll be a bit concerned about what sort of activities that she might be considering, knowing the possible reprocussions that are more prevalent today of those activities that provided a few chuckles for my friends and I and a bit of a headache for the phone company when I was younger. But at the same time, I will feel a measure of pride at her developing a skill that requires quite a bit of dedication, know-how, and guts to become proficient at. Just as I will concerning any skill that she might master that doesn't involve the consumption of other humans or the destruction of my toys.

What you probably meant only in jest I actually find to be a possible aspiration, since as a parent I can only provide my daughter with knowledge, rudimentary experience, and my personal interpretation of right and wrong. Only when I see what she accomplishes using her own insights and self-reliance will I truly know the quality of my parenting. If that happens to be when she turns the networking world on its head by devising a methodology of navigating any network that she can access undetected, then so be it. :)

Re:Trust them

[megan_of_wutai]

Unless your children are terminally stupid I doubt you have much to worry about, this kind of thing is usually self regulating. Porn for example, children too young to see it generally just think it's funny or gross (hell, at the age of 20 I almost universally feel the former, often hilarious) and by the time they get turned on by it what's the problem? Afraid that masturbation will make them go blind?

Someone would have to be a complete idiot to do most of the stuff that can get someone in trouble on the net (with the exception of filesharing, but let's face it, most people doing that are over 18). Sadly of course most people, adults and children, are completely stupid. I propose a solution to this: stop idiots having computers.

This "get out of my house if you want to do $thing" attitude has always pissed me off immensely, they *can't* get out of your house, they're not legally allowed to. Even if they were, society has gone around making age an eligibility requirement for independent living, try getting an apartment at 15 or 16, or a job. Stop acting like they have a choice.

When will people learn that children are people too, and (most) can make sensible and mature choices given the chance, definately by the time they're into double figures. If your particular 16 year old keeps sticking their fingers into electrical outlets you might want to ask yourself who's fault that is.

Re:Trust them

[cyberbob2010]

I'm a perfect example of the forsaid statements.

Until age 18 I was 100% monitored and controled by my parents. This included what books I read, what games I played, where I went and with whom. Now to a point this is acceptable, however most parents who are to afraid to allow their children to use the internet are going to be much to resrictive in other areas. Essentially, I was overprotected and when it came my time to live life, I was unprepaired. It was a damn good thing that I was tech savy enough to slip online at night between 12 and 6 in the morning or else I'd have ended up REALLY screwed up. Raising...no, FORCING your children to make the decisions that you deam to be right does not help them at all. It simply denies them the chance to experience true consequence, reality and human interaction - ALL of which they will need later in life. I'm living testament to this as are my little brother and sister. How do you expect children to be capable of living on their own at age 18 unless you give them the chance to make decisions and learn about life before hand when they ARE under your wing.

As a last note - if you truly must keep them from doing something GIVE A REASON!!!

speaking from a totally sociological point of view - middle class and upper middle class parents teach their children to obey so that they can fit into similar obedient positions in life. BECAUSE I SAY SO and BECAUSE IM THE ADULT, will do them no good in the future.

Re:Trust them

[lb746]

Or to help stop them from closing applications fast, put goatse as the background image in windows...

Re:Trust them

[Mordanthanus]

I think you give people too much credit. I have four daughters and I set up a computer for them with internet access a couple of years ago. (they were between 15 and 10 at the time) We set down a couple of rules... the biggest being "Do NOT give out any personal info over the web." I told them they could tell their first name, but if someone insists on the last, make something up. But no other info at all...

That being said, three days later, they were all over the chat rooms and the IMs. I decided to test them. We were away from the house and I created a fake AOL instant messenger screen name. I impersonated Justin Timberlake as I knew they were all fond of that crap back then. I initiated a conversation with them and within 5 minutes... 5 MINUTES, I had all their names, address, ages, and phone number. Since they didn't listen, I decided to teach them why I make the rules I make. Some may think it was a bad thing to do, but it worked for me. I "let them in" on the fact that I wasn't Justin Timberlake. I started talking about the clothes they were wearing, as I remembered what clothes they had on from earlier. I made them think that I was some kind of stalker and was watching them. They were scared shitless. They called within seconds and said that someone was outside watching them. I asked how they knew this and they tried to cover it all up. They finally told the truth and I explained what happened. They were mad at first, but a few days later, the oldest told me that they understand why I did it and the purpose for the rule. They don't give out personal info anymore.

People learn by making mistakes because there is a consequence to the mistake that they don't like. But do you want that consequence to be being raped or even killed because they told the wrong person who and where they were?? Paranoid or not, I believe that a safe child is a happy child. And no matter what you think, there are some really sick people out there.

Re:Trust them

[Anonymous Coward]

My daughter recently started preschool. Last week, her daily progress report listed that she wandered off a couple of times without permission, tried to con another kid out of his lollypop, and kept wanting to explore other aspects of the lessons being taught. However, she did receive glowing praise for being quiet when she was supposed to do so.

Punish curiosity, reward meekness.
Yup, those lessons will be with her for a lifetime.

Privacy Invading Software

[LordoftheFrings]

I don't know about the rest of the stuff, but as a teenage boy, let me tell you, Netnanny or any of that privacy software DOESTN't work, so don't try that. Also, don't assume the worst in kids, unless they are male, and are pubescent, in which case, the answer is YES, he WAS looking at porn.

Re:Privacy Invading Software

[dbc001]

Dirty images and thoughts

I have a little surprise for you:
sex isn't dirty.

actually it's quite nice.
i'm not a hundred percent sure, but there's some pretty good evidence that sex is what we were designed to do. that's why normal male humans don't normally go very long without thinking about sex. i believe it's often referred to as "survival", and sex is how we do the whole "survival" thing.

for those of you who really think that sex is "dirty", you need to see a therapist, seriously. that's a very unhealthy attitude, and it could very well cause some serious problems.

lying

[wolrahnaes]

does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?

Yes.

Re:lying

[Ossifer]

Well I certainly don't read slashdot when my parents are around

and now I'm an internet ninja

[ChrisTower]

I've had a computer in my room since I was eight. Fifteen years later, I'm an out of work web developer who can type really fast and find you a copy of the Paris Hilton video in less than two minutes. Well adjusted? Perhaps not, but my tendonitis/carpal tunnel keeps me company at night and that's all that matters.

Re:How were they punished when they broke the rule

[oneishy]

To add to the parent poster: Most would agree that there are dangers to the internet, which your rules are there to protect. When those rules are broken, you should have a pre-set plan of consequences. On the part of the child the punishment is a deterent, but you must be strong enough to cary through so that they can also learn from the experience of breaking the rule. I can not stress enough that you should not cave to their 'needs' and be afraid of taking the computer away as punishment.

With your rules it would seem logical that removing the computer (or internet connection) would be a fair punishment.

As the old saying goes: Spare the Rod, Spoil the child. The older I get (I am only 22 now) the more truth I see in that

Don't worry about teenagers, just little kids

[Spinality]

By the time your kids are in or approaching highschool, the groundwork has been laid. Either you have a strong, nurturing relationship, and your kids have learned to think responsibly for themselves; or they're snotty brats who distrust their overbearing and indifferent parents, who will lie to you at every opportunity, and who will bend with the winds of peer pressure. Either way, they have already been faced with every temptation you wish they didn't know about.

You need to give them the tools to make good choices: self-respect, self knowledge, curiosity, empathy, fairness, and the other strengths of responsible adulthood. And if they have a healthy amount of curiosity and are not malformed, OF COURSE they'll be fascinated by porn. Weren't you? Like the other poster said, isn't that what the Internet is for?

Little kids are another story, of course. They are still assembling their tool kits. You need to guide them through the discovery of life's seamier chapters. But fortunately, little kids won't know how to circumvent firewalls, and they don't need computers in their rooms. You have a few years to get them ready. And what they need from you has nothing to do with technology.

So I laugh at the folks who are aghast at their 16 year old kids running Grand Theft Auto Vice City. But I shudder at my friends who bought it for their ten-year-old son. WTF?

Simplest rules:

[Dr. Photo]

1. Any rule that you yourself don't abide by will be instantly disregarded as hypocritical the moment your back is turned. And rightly so.
2. If they haven't seen it on the Internet, they'll learn about it at school. And most likely do it after school. Make sure they know about condoms and safe sex. Practice your "Way to go, son!" speech just in case they get lucky.
3. Allow them to view any content (within reason) that they're willing to explain, and talk about. Conversely, forbid anything that they're too ashamed to bring up. Let their own moral compass pester them for you, and save yourself the trouble.
4. Make sure they realize that cutie_doll17 is actually a sweaty, overweight, 45-year-old truck driver named Jim. Don't let them meet online people in real life except in a public place when you are present. (That's a pretty standard blurb in any internet-safety pamphlet. Ironically those pamphlets have cause more paper-cut-related deaths than the number of lives they've purportedly saved. Avoid hardcopy and sharp corners.)
5. Make sure they realize that script kiddie shit has consequences. Punish them severely if they root any box with a script that they did not author themselves. This will teach them that plagiarism is wrong.
6. No dessert until all their software is patched and up to date. Ground them if they leave unnecessary services listening on open ports.

Pornography is *evil*?

[autopr0n]

The same prinicple applies with many of the evils online (pornogrophy, violence, fostering bad relationships, etc..)

Pornography is evil now? Wow, I'm right up there with Saddam Hussen. But where the hell are my 70 virgins!?

Start the policies before they start walking...

[flogger]

I don't want to preach; but, to me, the trust issue (as mentioned earlier) is the key to raising children. Trust them and let them know you trust them. But, children will screw up and loose that trust. Let them know that the trust is gone and let them know what it will take to get that trust back. And LET THEM EARN THE TRUST BACK. I have seen many parents that "give up" when a child becomes untrustworthy. When that happens, the child doesn't have anything to strive for in his/her parental relationship. Is this "Trust See-Saw" easy to handle? No, of course not.

Let me get back to the topic: Start young with teaching children what is appropriate and inappropriate. (For the parents with teens, it may not be too late to start, but it will be tough if you have to convince you child that certain clothes he/she has been wearing for two years are now inappropriate.) Is it easy to discuss this with children? It shouldn;t be hard.

Let me use a personal example: My son, at the time was age 9, went to spend the night at a friends house. While there they watched an austin powers movie. This came out in conversation a couple of days later. My wife and I were horrified that this happened, but we didn;t yell and hoot and holler. We asked about the movie and he told us about it (We had seen this movie a couple of years before at a friends house (Strange how things work out)) During this conversation we talked about attitudes toward women and sexuality. And we talked about whe we found certain things objectionable. But it wasn't a lecture. we were having a conversation and he understood why it was inapproriate when we had finished.

You may say, "Bah, kids can't handle that kind of talk." Well, you'd be suprised. It you are honest and open with your children in ALL areas, they will learn and respond in this type of conversational enviornment. A few months ago, My son was at an overnight with a few friends and a movie was going to be shown. He asked what it was rated and got a couple of friends to go into another room and play cards (or a board game, I can;t remember. He's in bed now, or I would ask him). But I think that takes some maturity. Maturity that comes from learning how to think along the lines of what is appropriate and what is not.

How does one get to a point where we can trust the kids to make good choices? As parents we should make good choices ourselves and explain these to the kids. Dinner is a great time for these discussions. And whenver something comes up, don;t hide it from the kids. Let them in one what is happeneing. Another example: A student from where I teach was kicked out of his house. We let him stay with use for a bit while things got straightened out. My children were, of course very curious about what was going on, and we told them about the neglect, abuse, and everything going on. My children were very welcoming and treated this person as a brother fot the time he was here. Since then, my son has volunteered his time at some charities in the area for other "transients."

Again, bak to the topic: In the manner of the internet, as with all areas, be open and honest. When you are deleting spam from your email, there is a great learning experience for the kids. "Look at this junk. Enlarge your breasts..." and get into a discussion about the previlence of sexual attitudes in society. It works, kids listen, and they will understand. Yesterday, When I was playing my father-in-law on some online chess and my kids were helping out, I got an offer across AIM (Through trillian) to check out some girls webcam. (Yea right.) Well what a great learning experience about the inappropriateness of the internet. We even went to the link, and sure enough, it was filtered out.
which leads me to...
Don;t let children surf without proper filtering. All of our computers run through an E-Smith server (modified red-hat small office gateway and server) which runs an excellent free SquidGuard filter. This doesn't mean that you don;t t

Now look here

[The Tyro]

The guy made a statement about his control of the home network. You responded by personally attacking him, basically calling him a tight-assed bastard... shame on you. He makes a VERY important point... his hardware, his electricity, his rules; I happen to think he's got every right to do this.

Here's a point you're missing; he's responsible for that network.

That's right... his house, his hardware, his electricity, HIS RESPONSIBILITY, including legally. The last thing I want is the RIAA/MPAA/FBI coming to my door because I gave my teen a little too much freedom on his computer. How many thousands did that little girl's mother have to pay because she was downloading music? I know you know the story I'm talking about, discussed ad nauseum here on Slashdot.

I have no problem letting my kids learn. I let them fall, skin their knees (my wife has a little trouble with this), even occasionally burn themselves, after all, the two best teachers are pain and loss of money. What I will not do is sit back while they fill their minds with stuff they may or may not be ready to handle, or while they get chatted up by some pedophile. And don't even give me that "you're just a paranoid old man" crap... Until you've done the number of sexual assault exams I have (including pediatric), you can sit down and be quiet.

My kids have met "big brother," and he is me. I'm not overprotective, just watchful. If I see them access something inappropriate, I may not say anything; I may just watch to see what they do. They best measure of your personal ethos and integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.

Once your kids have proven themselves, consider turning them loose... but trust is EARNED, folks.

Re:Now look here

[surprise_audit]

Our main PC is in our living room, so anyone using it sits with their back to the room. My kids have never had a problem with that, because it's always been that way. The younger two (12 & 11) are only just old enough to be thinking about email and spend most of their time playing games. Their older sister (20) has a laptop in her room, but only because she got a job and bought it for herself to take to college.

Having said that, if I thought we had a problem with inappropriate websites, for example, I'd put in a transparent proxy, check the logs from time to time, and block connections to really questionable sites. The younger kids would get "404 Not Found" and I'd blame the ISP... Same with filesharing, etc.

Not at all.

[The Tyro]

My wife is a consenting adult, whom I trust completely. That trust has been built over a period of years, and is mutual. Having spent birthdays, holidays, etc apart due to miltary duties for months and months, we've both had ample opportunity to violate our marriage vows, and we have not. She can be hard-core, and is more than able to take care of herself (I've watched her shoot guys down... brutal.) I would never snoop on my wife, because we have built up that trust, and because she is MORE than capable of thinking and reasoning for herself.

That, my friend, is the difference between a consenting adult and a minor child. Why is there an age of consent? It's because younger children and teens generally don't have the ability, breadth of experience, or perspective to assent to certain activities. This is why slime like NAMBLA are so fundamentally wrong. A child cannot consent to activities like they advocate, because they cannot adequately appreciate and understand the ramifications of those activities.

My wife is of the same mind on this matter, by the way. I prefer to think of myself as a watchful guardian rather than a "snoop" (it's all semantics anyway). If I'm not there to help them interpret what they see, then who will be? Who will love them enough to help them understand? Who will address the tough questions with them? (and thanks to open communication and a little technology, I'll be able to anticipate some of those critical conversations).

It's all good, my young friend, and it's an absolutely beneficient effort with nothing less than their best interests at heart... A labor of love, if you will.

It would be a lot easier for me to say "sure, go ahead and do whatever the hell you want..." but I love them too much to do that. They may not appreciate it at the time (I certainly didn't), but God willing, they may eventually come to be thankful for all those hours and all that effort.

It took me until my late 20's to realize exactly how hard my parents had worked to make me a quality human being, and I feel that it's my parental obligation to return the favor with my own children.

You may disagree, of course.