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Rules for Teenage Internet Access?
Kent Brewster writes "Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms. We've got a nebulous set of rules, which include several like these: Keep the door open when you're on the computer. Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past. Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing. Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific. We'd be very interested in hearing from both sides of the fence: parents with Net-connected progeny, and those who are chafing under their rule. Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines? Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? Do they actually make a difference in your behavior, or do you just sneak past them anyway? Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"
By age 15, I'd be concerned if they weren't yet looking at porn.
As far as the "don't quickly exit from everything" rule, I think that's a bit unfair... there are plenty of legitimate reasons they might want to (emails, IMs, etc.), and even the naughtiest of children should feel they have SOME privacy. Besides, knowing that you trust them is far more important for their growth than seeing a few naked women (masturbation discovery nonwithstanding).
Observing my siblings and their friends grow up I have noticed something - stricter parenting doesn't make children misbehave less, it just makes them better at lying. You have two options -
Which one all depends on how street-wise you think your kids are. If you think that they are going get influenced by what they see or talk to the wrong people (like paedophiles or Irish people), the dangers are too great so you have to restrict them. If you are just simply uncomfortable with them seeing inappropriate images, bear in mind they'll see them elsewhere if not at home, so what's the point in stopping them?
foo mane padme hum
You mention that the rules have all been broken? What happened when they broke them? Did you take the computer out of the room for a time? If not, perhaps you should in the future.
I don't know about the rest of the stuff, but as a teenage boy, let me tell you, Netnanny or any of that privacy software DOESTN't work, so don't try that. Also, don't assume the worst in kids, unless they are male, and are pubescent, in which case, the answer is YES, he WAS looking at porn.
Canadian Cynic, canadian politics is less boring than you
I'm pretty sure my dad's just given up, he's pretty knowledgable about computers (learnt a lot from watching him) but he knows I will find a way around.
We tend to become like the worst in those we oppose. --Bene Gesserit Coda--
does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?
Yes.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
I know the point of ask Slashdot is to make fun of the person asking the question but come on. Simple...log where they are going or set up some advanced Snort rules on a firewall box to alert you whenever keywords come through. But seriously I've been looking at internet pr0n since I was 11, way back in the day(About 1993), it doesn't hurt much just make sure they aren't planning on meeting someone they met in a chat room named SugarDaddy35 and it'll be fine.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=
As I'm 16 years old, here's probably the rules I'll have for my kids (yes I know, I'm paranoid.. but look what I've done):
Do not let them have access to the internet. With that in mind, if you do let them have access to the internet, only allow port 80. And only let them have access to Yahoo! Kids. Do not under ANY circumstances give them access to IRC. IRC is by far the root of all evil.
If you are going to give them access to the internet, make sure to stick their computer behind 4 bridges, and a NAT. Filter everything that you could possibly do. In all cases, do NOT let them have access to the internet if at all possible.
Snoop on your kids, msgsnarf is your friend. Firewall logs and snort also help you filter out porn traffic.
In essence, do NOT trust your kids. They will break your trust, it has been proven time and time again. I do not remember the last time I listened to my Dad, uh yeah.. haha.
In his case, I just make sure his computer doesn't get infected with more then 10 viruses. Although he is actually a computer teacher, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about computers..
Free means no restrictions, ironic the FSF's GPL forces restrictions, isn't it? What's your definition of free?
Don't keep the door closed when you're on the computer? Geez, what horrible rule, especialy for the 15 year old.
:).
If you're that freaked out, why not put all the computers in a "family computer lab"? Is it that painful for you to actually spend time in the same room as your kids?
I mean seriously, putting the TV, computer, etc in the kids room means the kid will spend all their time in their room alone, away from the rest of the family. Put all the entertainment devices in the same place, and you'll find yourselves actually spending time together. That's certainly what I plan on doing when I have kids (which should hopefully be quite a while from now
w.r.t your paranoia. There's a lot of fucked up stuff on the internet, and your kids will eventually see it anyway. I wouldn't want small children to see that stuff but the stileproject isn't going to turn a 15 year old into a psychopath.
But anyway, my solution still solves your problem. So do it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Yes, I think that they deserve a reasonable amount of privacy, but you wouldn't let them hit the town without at least knowing where they're going, would you?
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I've had a computer in my room since I was eight. Fifteen years later, I'm an out of work web developer who can type really fast and find you a copy of the Paris Hilton video in less than two minutes. Well adjusted? Perhaps not, but my tendonitis/carpal tunnel keeps me company at night and that's all that matters.
I'm tired of bombing the universe
On a personal note, i'd never try to enforce a 'no porn' rule on teenage boys. It's damn stupid. Even my mom was cool with the porn mags in my night table when I was a kid. We had a don't ask don't tell rule. She didn't clean that drawer - it was my one sanctum of privacy.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
For a 15 year old, I wouldn't really be worried. The only real risk would be pervs chatting them up (especially if they were a girl) But even there I'd probably stop worrying around 13 or 14 or so.
:))
Teach your kids that "don't talk to strangers" applies online as well. (Oh, and be sure to tell them what a stranger is. When I was a child I met a girl who though "Stranger" was simply a synonym "pedophile". I told her it meant anyone she didn't know and she didn't believe me).
Definitely tell them not to ever give out their email address, or download software (probably don't want to give them admin access, unless they are a geek, in which case you should give them a Linux machine
But you have to be age appropriate as well. Something like the stileproject could seriously warp a little kid. Or at least it seems like it could, I'm not a psychologist.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Sir, not to disrespect, but I'm sure your wife doesn't know about EVERYTHING that you do on the internet. And if she does, something is either very wrong, or very right.
See, it all boils down to the fact that the internet is just like any other information medium, be it the library, the video shop w/ an "adult" section in back, or Pigsty, the dirty little kid who hangs out on the playground singing "milk milk lemonade..." That is to say, you'll never be able to keep it in check. It is outside of your sphere of influence.
What can you do? Prepare your kids for what they may run into. Give them feedback and guidance on how to deal with certain situations. Tell them what is appropriate and what is not. After that, its all up to them. As it should be. Humans need practice making decisions for themselves and not having everything honed down, toned down, and spoon fed to them. To do so is a disservice to both the human spirit, and your children's ability to function and think on a level that you may not be comfortable with.
The fact is, you can't protect them. You can only help guide and instruct them.
And if its really such a big deal, take the computer away and be a mean parent. They'll forgive you eventually, and its probably for the best anyway. Its not like its the end of the world, and there's no need for you to cave just cuz Johnny S and Susie Q have computers in their rooms.
Anyway, its all about the trust, man. Trust that your kids know what they're doing and if it gets out of hand, offer help and advice instead of anger and retribution. We get enough of that from The Christain God.
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To add to the parent poster: Most would agree that there are dangers to the internet, which your rules are there to protect. When those rules are broken, you should have a pre-set plan of consequences. On the part of the child the punishment is a deterent, but you must be strong enough to cary through so that they can also learn from the experience of breaking the rule. I can not stress enough that you should not cave to their 'needs' and be afraid of taking the computer away as punishment.
With your rules it would seem logical that removing the computer (or internet connection) would be a fair punishment.
As the old saying goes: Spare the Rod, Spoil the child. The older I get (I am only 22 now) the more truth I see in that
Since she's sitting next to me, playing Diablo 2, I asked my 14-year-old daughter about her net access.
"I find little weird web sites, I look at them," she says. "When I close the [browser] window, it's just an automatic reaction to parents in the room, a matter of privacy."
Yes, I've caught my eldest daughter reading disturbing web sites -- CNN, Christian fundamentalists, anime, Slashdot. Lord knows, she's found some very strange online comics. She asks the most damnable questions sometimes -- and that's just fine with me.
I can't teach my daughters to respect my privacy by snooping in her activities. I trust my kids. They know their parents trust them, and that they can come to us with any question; we know what they are doing, where, and with who, not because we dictate, but because our kids want us involved in their life.
All about me
By the time your kids are in or approaching highschool, the groundwork has been laid. Either you have a strong, nurturing relationship, and your kids have learned to think responsibly for themselves; or they're snotty brats who distrust their overbearing and indifferent parents, who will lie to you at every opportunity, and who will bend with the winds of peer pressure. Either way, they have already been faced with every temptation you wish they didn't know about.
You need to give them the tools to make good choices: self-respect, self knowledge, curiosity, empathy, fairness, and the other strengths of responsible adulthood. And if they have a healthy amount of curiosity and are not malformed, OF COURSE they'll be fascinated by porn. Weren't you? Like the other poster said, isn't that what the Internet is for?
Little kids are another story, of course. They are still assembling their tool kits. You need to guide them through the discovery of life's seamier chapters. But fortunately, little kids won't know how to circumvent firewalls, and they don't need computers in their rooms. You have a few years to get them ready. And what they need from you has nothing to do with technology.
So I laugh at the folks who are aghast at their 16 year old kids running Grand Theft Auto Vice City. But I shudder at my friends who bought it for their ten-year-old son. WTF?
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
I have 3 children (16,10 and 5), they all have computers in thier rooms that have unfiltered Internet access. The only real hard and fast rules we have is that they are not allowed to talk to people on IM or e-mail that they do not know, never give out your e-mail address to people you don't know, and never agree to buy anything. The last one became necessary when my 10year old joined Columbia records and got 10 free CD's for a penny!!! Now the gotcha's. My kids know that I can see everywhere they go by checking my firewall logs. If I check my logs and and see anything I feel is worth discussing then I will. Nothing will stop a 16 year old from viewing porn like having to face dad for an open and frank discussion that starts out as "so son, notice you've been looking at a lot of sex pages..Do you think all women are like that?? I noticed you were spending most of your time on pages where the women were doing X. Why is that ?? " He would much rather I just yell at him and forbid it, but I refuse. Basically I am using shame as a weapon..Will probably have to pay for it via therapy for them later...Oh well.
Good point, everyone claims "Well trying to shelter the kids is pointless, they will find out about it sooner or later and then all you have done it make it more desirable by forbidding it."
The Internet is new; most parents today, as children, did not have the level of access to such material in the home that we do now. As the poster above says, would you let your kids walk around just anywhere in your town? Think of the seediest, run-down strip in your town, yet with no age limits at the bars and video stores. Approximately half of the internet looks like that.
There's a good reason that, before the internet, you had to be a certain age before getting access to this kind of material. It's not to shelter the children, it's to prevent exposure to this kind of material until they are old enough to make mature judgements and decisions. Before learning what the dirty underbelly of the world looks like, they should at least learn respect for others and not to treat women as objects. Children absorb and form ideas very quickly, while adults have a sort of filter of past judgement and experience where they can decide to take something to heart or forget it.
...
What exactly is your goal in doing this? To prevent them from looking at porn? To keep pedophiles from chatting up your kids? Under your rules, your kids could look at porn all they want as long as they're willing to let you know about it, in other words, you hope your children's shame in their parents knowing about their sexual predilictions should keep them in line? Or you just want your kids to be honest about their sexuality with you? Both of those seem a little weird to me.
If I were you, I'd just use some kind URL sniffer on, and check to make sure they wern't looking at anything really weird.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The same prinicple applies with many of the evils online (pornogrophy, violence, fostering bad relationships, etc..)
Pornography is evil now? Wow, I'm right up there with Saddam Hussen. But where the hell are my 70 virgins!?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Or do what I do and just TELL them that you're logging their traffic. Knowing that anything they say online can be used against them by dad does wonders to keep them honest.
And don't give me lip about not trusting my kids...I trust my kids with my life. It's the million other perverts who would lure them to the local Motel 6 that I don't trust. Children, even teenagers, need guidance and need their parents to keep an eye on them and prevent them from getting into potentially dangerous situations. In my case, I do that by occassionally snooping on their communications. Considering that I've already caught my nine year old daughter posing as a 13 year old, AND caught a local high school kid propositioning her, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me that monitoring is a BAD thing.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
I don't want to preach; but, to me, the trust issue (as mentioned earlier) is the key to raising children. Trust them and let them know you trust them. But, children will screw up and loose that trust. Let them know that the trust is gone and let them know what it will take to get that trust back. And LET THEM EARN THE TRUST BACK. I have seen many parents that "give up" when a child becomes untrustworthy. When that happens, the child doesn't have anything to strive for in his/her parental relationship. Is this "Trust See-Saw" easy to handle? No, of course not.
Let me get back to the topic: Start young with teaching children what is appropriate and inappropriate. (For the parents with teens, it may not be too late to start, but it will be tough if you have to convince you child that certain clothes he/she has been wearing for two years are now inappropriate.) Is it easy to discuss this with children? It shouldn;t be hard.
Let me use a personal example: My son, at the time was age 9, went to spend the night at a friends house. While there they watched an austin powers movie. This came out in conversation a couple of days later. My wife and I were horrified that this happened, but we didn;t yell and hoot and holler. We asked about the movie and he told us about it (We had seen this movie a couple of years before at a friends house (Strange how things work out)) During this conversation we talked about attitudes toward women and sexuality. And we talked about whe we found certain things objectionable. But it wasn't a lecture. we were having a conversation and he understood why it was inapproriate when we had finished.
You may say, "Bah, kids can't handle that kind of talk." Well, you'd be suprised. It you are honest and open with your children in ALL areas, they will learn and respond in this type of conversational enviornment. A few months ago, My son was at an overnight with a few friends and a movie was going to be shown. He asked what it was rated and got a couple of friends to go into another room and play cards (or a board game, I can;t remember. He's in bed now, or I would ask him). But I think that takes some maturity. Maturity that comes from learning how to think along the lines of what is appropriate and what is not.
How does one get to a point where we can trust the kids to make good choices? As parents we should make good choices ourselves and explain these to the kids. Dinner is a great time for these discussions. And whenver something comes up, don;t hide it from the kids. Let them in one what is happeneing. Another example: A student from where I teach was kicked out of his house. We let him stay with use for a bit while things got straightened out. My children were, of course very curious about what was going on, and we told them about the neglect, abuse, and everything going on. My children were very welcoming and treated this person as a brother fot the time he was here. Since then, my son has volunteered his time at some charities in the area for other "transients."
Again, bak to the topic: In the manner of the internet, as with all areas, be open and honest. When you are deleting spam from your email, there is a great learning experience for the kids. "Look at this junk. Enlarge your breasts..." and get into a discussion about the previlence of sexual attitudes in society. It works, kids listen, and they will understand. Yesterday, When I was playing my father-in-law on some online chess and my kids were helping out, I got an offer across AIM (Through trillian) to check out some girls webcam. (Yea right.) Well what a great learning experience about the inappropriateness of the internet. We even went to the link, and sure enough, it was filtered out.
which leads me to...
Don;t let children surf without proper filtering. All of our computers run through an E-Smith server (modified red-hat small office gateway and server) which runs an excellent free SquidGuard filter. This doesn't mean that you don;t t
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"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
That explains it. If they're Eagle Scouts, then they already see enough porn when the scoutmaster asks them to "stay after".
No. I mean, not too often. Well, sometimes. Okay, fine, I'm not really 6'4", fabulously wealthy, and have a 9 inch cock. Under my red mini-skirt. Which I wear when I pick up hot 18-year old sluts who will do anything for money!
Now that I've gotten my smart-assedness out of my system, I think it's time you looked at the basics of human development.
Kids grow. In doing so, they will expect their own privacy and freedom. With that goes responsibility. Would you let your 11 year old go to a party unsupervised? Probably not. Would you let your 15 year old? Well, judging from your attitude, probably not. I would. As long as your kids are getting good grades and have their shit pretty much together, let them do their own thing. If they want money from you, make them mow the yard. If they want a ride, tell them to clean up their room first. If they choose to walk rather than that, don't bitch at them. It's their choice. You need to slowly relax the reins, so that when they are 18 and go off to college, they have the skills and maturity to adjust, rather than just going "Woo-hoo! I don't have to listen to anyone anymore! I'm gonna fuckin' party". That's a big part of the problem. If you think your kids aren't interested in sex, intoxicants ( drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, whatever ), bands, parties, etc., you're wrong. Weren't you? It's a matter of degrees, and knowing what is healthy.
And doesn't it strike you as odd that your child feel the need to lie to you? My personal experience has been that it's easier to tell the truth, so I don't waste time lying unless it's worth it. Ex. : if you could just tell a cop : "Look I busted my headlight last week, but I haven't had time to replace it" and he just gave you a warning, would you feel the need to to tell him you hadn't noticed it, someone must have hit your car in the parking lot? I wouldn't bother if I could, but is telling the truth worth the hassle of going to court and paying a fine? Not in my books, because whether the cop believes my lie or not, noone is hurt ( except for maybe the county, who is deprived of a $150 that they could waste as well as my tax dollars are ).
A computer is a tool. Internet access is a problematic tool, because it's a gateway to so much. What are you really worried about? Kids looking at porn? What, and you never looked at porn? Never masturbated? If you say no, you're full of shit. Being exposed to violence/hateful themes, etc? That's around kids every day. Same for drugs. So, unless I'm missing something, the only thing that kids are exposed to on the internet that isn't around regularly, are sexual predators. And those are there in the real world too. Basically, the only thing I would be worried about are the people that they might interact with online. But if you haven't explained to them that are people in the world that would like to hurt them, and that they need to be careful in who they trust, then they're not equipped to walk down to the cornerstore, let alone do anything else.
So the same basics that apply to the real world apply online. And please don't rob your children of a chance to mature in a healthy, human, responsible manner. If you're going to worry about anything, get on them about their grades, try to interest them in science, art, nature, etc.
If they want to look at pictures of naked chicks, or read about guns, drugs, whatever, don't sweat it. ( hell, the eleven year old is probably just looking up pictures of guy/girl he/she thinks is cute/smart/cool/whatever and doesn't want dad to know because he/she's embarrassed ). In my opinion, expose children to the world, let them read, talk to them, and most of all : tell and show them what you think, and then let them make up their own minds.
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
The guy made a statement about his control of the home network. You responded by personally attacking him, basically calling him a tight-assed bastard... shame on you. He makes a VERY important point... his hardware, his electricity, his rules; I happen to think he's got every right to do this.
Here's a point you're missing; he's responsible for that network.
That's right... his house, his hardware, his electricity, HIS RESPONSIBILITY, including legally. The last thing I want is the RIAA/MPAA/FBI coming to my door because I gave my teen a little too much freedom on his computer. How many thousands did that little girl's mother have to pay because she was downloading music? I know you know the story I'm talking about, discussed ad nauseum here on Slashdot.
I have no problem letting my kids learn. I let them fall, skin their knees (my wife has a little trouble with this), even occasionally burn themselves, after all, the two best teachers are pain and loss of money. What I will not do is sit back while they fill their minds with stuff they may or may not be ready to handle, or while they get chatted up by some pedophile. And don't even give me that "you're just a paranoid old man" crap... Until you've done the number of sexual assault exams I have (including pediatric), you can sit down and be quiet.
My kids have met "big brother," and he is me. I'm not overprotective, just watchful. If I see them access something inappropriate, I may not say anything; I may just watch to see what they do. They best measure of your personal ethos and integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.
Once your kids have proven themselves, consider turning them loose... but trust is EARNED, folks.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
The problem I have with your post, is that it implictly claims that Islam is evil.
I do not agree. The poster was being ironic; the only people who say Hussein is evil are Bush and his cronies, usually as a backpeddling justification for murdering his kids.
In reality nobody, or at least nearly nobody, is evil. Evil in the classic movie-villain sense is "I'm bad, and I like it." It's the antagonist dressed in black and torturing, killing, and maiming because he's *evil* and that's *just what he does*.
In real life evil is harder to find. Real people generally consider themselves good. Bin Laden, for example, is clearly not evil. He is working from a dissagreeable (and one might even say faulty) perspective. Saddam Hussein is not evil, he has different priorities and (yes) different beliefs from we the observers. But I'm sure HE believes he is good and doing the right thing, at least most of the time.
The poster was saying, I think, amounts to "What I do is evil? Funny, I don't feel evil." Or something like that.
To get back on topic somewhat: Pornography is evil like Saddam is evil, which is to say it isn't. Hell, people can't even agree over whether pornograhy is *bad*, much less evil.
In no way is any of the above commentary on Islam or any religion, except where it implicitly insults all christians. Didn't catch that? That's the trouble with implicit satements...
I want my Cowboyneal
My wife is a consenting adult, whom I trust completely. That trust has been built over a period of years, and is mutual. Having spent birthdays, holidays, etc apart due to miltary duties for months and months, we've both had ample opportunity to violate our marriage vows, and we have not. She can be hard-core, and is more than able to take care of herself (I've watched her shoot guys down... brutal.) I would never snoop on my wife, because we have built up that trust, and because she is MORE than capable of thinking and reasoning for herself.
That, my friend, is the difference between a consenting adult and a minor child. Why is there an age of consent? It's because younger children and teens generally don't have the ability, breadth of experience, or perspective to assent to certain activities. This is why slime like NAMBLA are so fundamentally wrong. A child cannot consent to activities like they advocate, because they cannot adequately appreciate and understand the ramifications of those activities.
My wife is of the same mind on this matter, by the way. I prefer to think of myself as a watchful guardian rather than a "snoop" (it's all semantics anyway). If I'm not there to help them interpret what they see, then who will be? Who will love them enough to help them understand? Who will address the tough questions with them? (and thanks to open communication and a little technology, I'll be able to anticipate some of those critical conversations).
It's all good, my young friend, and it's an absolutely beneficient effort with nothing less than their best interests at heart... A labor of love, if you will.
It would be a lot easier for me to say "sure, go ahead and do whatever the hell you want..." but I love them too much to do that. They may not appreciate it at the time (I certainly didn't), but God willing, they may eventually come to be thankful for all those hours and all that effort.
It took me until my late 20's to realize exactly how hard my parents had worked to make me a quality human being, and I feel that it's my parental obligation to return the favor with my own children.
You may disagree, of course.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
It's interesting to read some of the rantings of people who don't have children, but who are (in their opinion) experts in parenting and raising kids, simply because they were once children. This is rather like football players thinking that they can coach, simply because they've played the game. Yes, good coaches frequently were good players, but many of the finest KNEW what to do, but weren't necessarily as gifted at doing it. However, they are almost always the product of good coaching themselves.
... ... ...
Likewise, good parents generally are the product of a good example, even if they aren't perfect and morally pure as the driven snow. Good parents generally trust their children, but also remember what it was like when they were kids themselves, and will use that knowledge to verify that their own kids aren't doing things that might endanger them.
Yes, I trust my sons, but it's not blind trust. They know that I will come into the room unannounced, and that I will want to know who they're chatting with, who they're exchanging e-mail with, and so on. They know why I'll do this.
BTW, on a lark, I posed as an older female one time to chat with my son and one of his friends. It was enlightening (to say the least) some of the language I saw. I offered to "teach them a lesson. They eagerly agreed. My lesson?
"Never
Never
Never
chat the way you have here, unless you are certain you know who you're talking to. This is your dad. Go to bed."
I pointed out that I could have been a nutcase (which I am), or worse, the father of my son's girlfriend. I pointed out that my son would've never seen her again if it had been her father posing as this older female.
Open door where the computer is? Check.
Unannounced walk-ins? Check.
Same rules for dad as the sons? Check.
Trust my sons? Check
Verify that they're being honest with me? Absolutely.
Tim
I'm sure we'll get the entire spectrum of views on parenting here. Everyone wants to convince everyone else that their approach (or their parent's approach) is the best/worst/whatever.
;)
Let me jump in, then
So my parents robbed me of my Human Right to Rebellion. Any time I tried something "forbidden," they merely co-opted it, and took the thrill out of it.
Starting with building fires (as an eight year old), I was given full permission to build fires, with a few constraints. Dad taught me how to kindle a good blaze with only a single match and twigs. While I wasn't strictly forbidden from using paper, lighter fluid, plastic, or candles, they were regarded as being beneath contempt. I wasn't going to stoop to that level. Not even to shock my parents. Well, with all that, I had to give up my dream of becoming an arsonist.
So I got caught sneaking some wine a few years later. So Dad split a beer with me. Not long after, he mixed up some martinis. Did I want to drink? OK. I could, but it had to be at home, or I had to promise to call for a ride home if I were somewhere else. That was much too reasonable to rebel against, and, to this day, I have failed to be an alcoholic.
Then I wanted to stay out late with friends, or on a date, or something. This was the clincher -- I knew they couldn't come up with a reasonable way of relinquishing control. But they did. OK. I could do it. They were counting on me to be responsible, not get arrested, not get anyone pregnant, not get in trouble. But if I did, I shouldn't hesistate to call on them, and they'd pay my bail, rescue me, or do what they could to help out. Damn! Defeated again.
Then again, I had a college friend whose father used to beat him with a heavy oak dowell anytime he ever broke a rule. Now there was a kid who didn't know the meaning of "limits" when it came to drinking, smoking dope, and getting in trouble. Still, he got it out his system, and today we're pretty much both responsible (hah!) citizens. So ya never know.
I'd argue that any time you're skipping school to play Doom, there's something wrong.
Absolutely. If you're skipping school to play Doom, you seriously need a computer upgrade.
I control the router. I read the logs. When they turn 18, if they are still living in my house, we'll discuss it. Until then, what I say goes.
You sound a lot like my father, though the issue of computers never came up, since I turned 18 in 1972.
I haven't spoken to him in over 30 years. Perhaps you regard this as an example of successful parenting.
Perhaps you'll succeed equally well with your kids.
Tech Public Policy stuff
You don't need all these new fangled ideas to stop them browsing porn. Just give them a 28kbps modem, and let them at it. They'll soon get sick of waiting for crap to download and go out and find real people.
mogorific carpentry experiments
I've always found it to be very strange when people talk about wanting to protect children from certain kinds of things, like porn for example, or violent movies, or "bad" words especially. When I was growing up I never could figure out exactly what it was that I was being protected from. I did of course see and hear everything that I was supposed to be shielded from. Since I'm a human being and not a walking tape recorder I was no more affected by it than an older person would be.
Now that I'm in my 30's I've come to realize that the motivation that drives parents and society itself to engage in information control and censorship is not that any young people will be harmed by the things we hide from them, but that we are somehow uncomfortable with the idea of them seeing certain things. The whole protection bit is just a post-hoc justification.
The truth is that surfing the web is about as safe an activity as can be imagined. The real dangers lie outside in the real world, not in cyberspace. Now to be fair there are predators online, both sexual and financial. But if you haven't seen to it that your kid is street smart enough to identify and avoid them then you're just a piss-poor parent.
If you feel uncomfortable about the idea that your children might see certain things online then maybe you should investigate why you feel that way, because it sure as hell isn't because they're going to be damaged in some way from seeing it. A person would have to be force-fed something on a continual basis for an extended period for it to have an effect upon them.
Young people are human beings, not tape recorders and not pets with the power of speech. Their view of the world is formed from the conclusions they reach based upon the sum total of their experiences. The only real difference is in how much experience they have to draw from. By the time they are old enough to know how to use a computer, the basic nature of who they are is already in place. By the time they're teenagers they're basically as grown as someone can be without having been out on their own. There is not special transformation which takes place on the eve of their 18th (or 21st, or you name it) birthday whereby they are suddenly transformed from being an malleable infant into a mature adult.
I'm starting to ramble here. Really what I'm trying to say is that there isn't anything you need to protect your children from seeing or hearing because none of it is going to affect them in any special way. Also it isn't like you can protect them from the things you don't want them to find out about unless you lock them in a closet, and if you think that is a good idea please get psychiatric help soon.
Childhood is more of a cultural construct than anything else, at least how childhood is understood in our culture. The lies and deceit that children have to deal with is nothing short of criminal. I don't know about you, but I didn't much like being lied to when I was a kid. What made it worse is that the lies that are told are so pathetically transparent that I'm amazed anyone is fooled. I kept thinking that there must be something I was missing, some piece in the puzzle that would make the things I was being told make sense. It wasn't until I realized that most people were idiots that I understood that the way children are treated is simply an extension of that stupidity.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Saddam was delusional to the end. Not insane, but really more the way Bush is. He was (by choice) surrounded by Yes-men, and he avoided thinking about the negatives. It worked pretty well until he went up against another group of self-deluding morons with a bigger army. I don't believe that Saddam thought he was evil. He thought he was doing what he needed to to unite a racially and ethnically and religiously divided nation. He didn't know what he was doing was wrong, and he didn't know it wouldn't work.
George Bernard Shaw, IIRC said "The rational man adapts to the world, the irrational man tries to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress is dependant on irrational men". I used to love that quote. But Saddam and Bush are both irrational, and they have both changed the world. I don't know if I would call it progress.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
As someone who had a hell of a childhood and was beset by complexes (handicapped from birth) and loneliness (my father died when I was 9 and my mother's later boyfriend treated me like a dog), I can just say there are some things you should know and do if you're interested in your childrens well being:
1.Talk to them. It sound so simple, doesn't it? But is it? We all know as adults just how difficult the modern world is and how litttle time we have, but that overdone cliche about spending quality time with your children is damn important. Controlling your kids too much will make them fear you and lose your trust. Show them that you love them and are interested in their lives. Make them feel like home is a place of warmth and saftey and that you will protect them with everything you've got.
2.Treat them like real human beings. There are so many guides that advocate rules and strict parenting, but neglect the fact that your children are real human beings with their own personalities and feelings. Treating them with respect (privacy is important for them too) will help them when the time comes on the internet that some sicko doesn't treat them with respect.
3.Have a set of rules about what you can and will accept. This might seem paradoxial to what I said above, but it isn't. If you explain to your children why you set those rules instead of just being the parental nazi, they will be more likely to follow them. Having rules is important, very important, in that it shows children to realise and know what other people's limits are i.e. they realise as well that you are in fact a real person.
4.Never break their trust. This can be damn difficult, but it is damn important. Don't be too harsh if they break a rule or do something stupid. Show them you're angry or worried (yell if you need to, penalise them in a SMALL way if need be i.e. one week no internet or extra task around the house) but don't leave it at that. Talk to them afterward to show you're still interested. Learn to forgive your kids for breaking rules, and show them that it's ok. We all know how difficult and unforgiving life and society are. They don't need that at home as well, because then there's no difference between home and the wild for them.
I'm sure I'll get moderated as flamebait for this, but.... I hardly doubt anyone here has any advice that's either informed or from the perspective you're looking for.
By this I mean two simple things: most slashdot folks are likely 16 through 27 or so (I'd imagine, since they're likely to have the most free time), are extremely liberal (most liberal folks I know are of the "don't discipline your child, it might scar him - until he's a teenager, then start", and "let kids do what they want, they're intelligent" persuasion - which is not to say all are), and are more likely to not have a family than to have one.
All these conditions, in my mind, make any advice gotten here something you might not want to consider.
That being said, this 21 y/o father and husband thinks that if, by the time they're 12 or 13, and they're still lying to you, something was done wrong from the beginning. There's evidently a trust issue. Recalling back to the few years to my adolecense, I'd say that this lack of trust is likely due to the fact that they're alienated by you and/or see you as the enemy.
My experience is that if you're the enemy (and I don't just mean your child is upset with you for a couple days, I'm talking about long-term resentment and/or distrust), then it's most likely that you weren't open enough with them when they were younger, aren't open enough with them now, and communication lines need to be cut and re-laid. Tell them that you trust them. Let them know that they've got someone they can talk to if they need to. Be interested in -them-, and care about the things they do. This means spend time with them if they'll allow it. Develop a report with them more sophisticated than the simple "this is how my day was" kind of conversation. You'll thank yourself later.
As for the actual guidelines that I'd suggest (from a fairly liberal-right kind of guy): back off for now, and develop that relationship. If that doesn't seem to be working, let them know that you don't appreciate it. Check their browser caches and/or history, if you're paranoid and/or want to be restrictive of their behavior: if they're bad, let them know about the harms/dangers of whatever they're doing, don't chastize them or punish them. By the time a kid reaches adolecense, they're likely too independent (depending on the kid) to be disciplined effectively, unless the infraction is quite severe. Dolling out punishments like cheap doctor's office candy just causes hatred towards you - they'll see you as being mean.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers