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Rules for Teenage Internet Access?
Kent Brewster writes "Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms. We've got a nebulous set of rules, which include several like these: Keep the door open when you're on the computer. Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past. Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing. Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific. We'd be very interested in hearing from both sides of the fence: parents with Net-connected progeny, and those who are chafing under their rule. Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines? Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? Do they actually make a difference in your behavior, or do you just sneak past them anyway? Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"
By age 15, I'd be concerned if they weren't yet looking at porn.
As far as the "don't quickly exit from everything" rule, I think that's a bit unfair... there are plenty of legitimate reasons they might want to (emails, IMs, etc.), and even the naughtiest of children should feel they have SOME privacy. Besides, knowing that you trust them is far more important for their growth than seeing a few naked women (masturbation discovery nonwithstanding).
Observing my siblings and their friends grow up I have noticed something - stricter parenting doesn't make children misbehave less, it just makes them better at lying. You have two options -
Which one all depends on how street-wise you think your kids are. If you think that they are going get influenced by what they see or talk to the wrong people (like paedophiles or Irish people), the dangers are too great so you have to restrict them. If you are just simply uncomfortable with them seeing inappropriate images, bear in mind they'll see them elsewhere if not at home, so what's the point in stopping them?
foo mane padme hum
You mention that the rules have all been broken? What happened when they broke them? Did you take the computer out of the room for a time? If not, perhaps you should in the future.
I don't know about the rest of the stuff, but as a teenage boy, let me tell you, Netnanny or any of that privacy software DOESTN't work, so don't try that. Also, don't assume the worst in kids, unless they are male, and are pubescent, in which case, the answer is YES, he WAS looking at porn.
Canadian Cynic, canadian politics is less boring than you
I'm pretty sure my dad's just given up, he's pretty knowledgable about computers (learnt a lot from watching him) but he knows I will find a way around.
We tend to become like the worst in those we oppose. --Bene Gesserit Coda--
does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?
Yes.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
As yourself this. Would you feel uncomfortable letting your children walk around anywhere they wanted to go unattended any time of the day or night? Turning down that dark alley is just one click away on the internet. Personally I have Norton at least *try* and keep some of the crap out.
TT
I know the point of ask Slashdot is to make fun of the person asking the question but come on. Simple...log where they are going or set up some advanced Snort rules on a firewall box to alert you whenever keywords come through. But seriously I've been looking at internet pr0n since I was 11, way back in the day(About 1993), it doesn't hurt much just make sure they aren't planning on meeting someone they met in a chat room named SugarDaddy35 and it'll be fine.
My parents, when asked to sign a letter stating that I could get an Internet account from the ISP I was working for, only replied, "Of course there's porn on the Internet, isnt't that what it's for?".
If you, as a parent, have to tell your kids not to:
* Close everything up when you walk by
* Keep the door open
* Don't lie to us.
Then you've got some serious human responsibility issues.
Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing.
Whenever my parents told me crap like this, it inspired me to lie about pretty much everything. Including activities which would probably not get me in trouble. But, when you create an environment of distrust, you're more likely to breed distrustful actions....
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? I hated it when my parrents would try to give me guide lines on when to use the computer. "Don't be up at 11 using the computer". That kind of thing doesn't help much. If you ever get in that situation for your kids, tell them that it's late and give them the option of turning off the computer for the night. If they say no, then remind them they still need to get up at 6 the next morning for school, and stick by it. Learning by cause and effect rather than a parrent laying down the law is usually more effective (it just created resent for me).
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=
As I'm 16 years old, here's probably the rules I'll have for my kids (yes I know, I'm paranoid.. but look what I've done):
Do not let them have access to the internet. With that in mind, if you do let them have access to the internet, only allow port 80. And only let them have access to Yahoo! Kids. Do not under ANY circumstances give them access to IRC. IRC is by far the root of all evil.
If you are going to give them access to the internet, make sure to stick their computer behind 4 bridges, and a NAT. Filter everything that you could possibly do. In all cases, do NOT let them have access to the internet if at all possible.
Snoop on your kids, msgsnarf is your friend. Firewall logs and snort also help you filter out porn traffic.
In essence, do NOT trust your kids. They will break your trust, it has been proven time and time again. I do not remember the last time I listened to my Dad, uh yeah.. haha.
In his case, I just make sure his computer doesn't get infected with more then 10 viruses. Although he is actually a computer teacher, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about computers..
Free means no restrictions, ironic the FSF's GPL forces restrictions, isn't it? What's your definition of free?
Don't keep the door closed when you're on the computer? Geez, what horrible rule, especialy for the 15 year old.
:).
If you're that freaked out, why not put all the computers in a "family computer lab"? Is it that painful for you to actually spend time in the same room as your kids?
I mean seriously, putting the TV, computer, etc in the kids room means the kid will spend all their time in their room alone, away from the rest of the family. Put all the entertainment devices in the same place, and you'll find yourselves actually spending time together. That's certainly what I plan on doing when I have kids (which should hopefully be quite a while from now
w.r.t your paranoia. There's a lot of fucked up stuff on the internet, and your kids will eventually see it anyway. I wouldn't want small children to see that stuff but the stileproject isn't going to turn a 15 year old into a psychopath.
But anyway, my solution still solves your problem. So do it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
one thing windows lets us do is install firewalls, and block certain internet sites. But... one thing I realized was if you talk to them and act mature about it, tell them that the illicit content they are looking at it designed for more mature people, and inform them that you are going to block those sites. If you do that, then their ball is in their corner. They have 2 options: 1, realize you are right and keep off the pr0n, or 2, they override yer countermeasures and you catch them.
Even the most Cyber Baby'esque child in your house can't totally remove the logs of internet traffic.
Basically, if you cant trust yer kids to keep off the pr0n, don't let them have internet in their room... or put the computer in the living room and only let them use it when yer home. If yer kid is looking at pr0n in the living room and masturbating in the relative public of that place, illicit internet use is the least of your worries.
whatever... trust, or force... its all good.
while(1) { fork(); };
Yes, I think that they deserve a reasonable amount of privacy, but you wouldn't let them hit the town without at least knowing where they're going, would you?
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I'm willing to say the biggest thing wasn't the fact that my parents were big on what I was doing on the computer, it was the lack of respect for my own privacy. Believe it or not, your kids opinion of you (and how much he/she will visit you ;) ) depends on how much space you allow them.
Now there is a such thing as too much space. However, if you want to protect your kids from p0rn, just make it not such a big deal. If you allow your child to date, chat, and be sure to give'em the "sex talk", it isn't so interesting anymore. (In my experience, the kids with the parents who showered them with information and condoms were the ones who are still virgins.)
Most parents only care about p0rn and bombmaking, which is something you don't find unless you are curious. I would say limit your kids time online, but be fair about it. And figure out just what they do with their bandwidth. If the kid has days of music and new games all of the time -- you know what he's doing. But if you notice the harddrive is full, maybe you ought to search for video files periodically.
If you find something, *chill out*. Bringing it up isn't going to help unless you're willing to bar them from the internet forever. In the end, every lonely 15 yo kid is gonna see it, you're just dodgning the inevitable. The easier it is, the less interesting. Be curious, but don't be a nazi.
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
I've had a computer in my room since I was eight. Fifteen years later, I'm an out of work web developer who can type really fast and find you a copy of the Paris Hilton video in less than two minutes. Well adjusted? Perhaps not, but my tendonitis/carpal tunnel keeps me company at night and that's all that matters.
I'm tired of bombing the universe
On a personal note, i'd never try to enforce a 'no porn' rule on teenage boys. It's damn stupid. Even my mom was cool with the porn mags in my night table when I was a kid. We had a don't ask don't tell rule. She didn't clean that drawer - it was my one sanctum of privacy.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
You allready pretty much summed it up.
You don't trust your children.
If you want to If instill Big Brother.
You could always install a product like spector pro on the pc's and review their actions on a daily basis.
Let them know that it's on there, and that they have no privacy and they'll be sure to behave.
Then again, you could just trust them. And let them actually confide in you without fear of being punished for every little thing.
An example:
(Would you rather have your kid
(1)call you "I'm too drunk to drive home" from a party,
or
(2)Try to drive home drunk afraid that if they didn't Mom and Dad would know they were drinking.)
.
Remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.
More seriously, from the teenager's perspective there's not a whole heck of a lot that most parents can really do when confronted with a teen that's resourceful enough. I speak from experience - I'm a teen, and quite honestly I *have* hidden my actions on the 'net from my parents on occasion - because, for example, it might be a little hard to explain away some of the images on the webcomic Road Waffles (warning: may not be work safe), which regularly has topless ladies in it, though it has plenty of redeeming value beyond that (just like an R-rated movie, it can have that sort of thing without it becoming the focus of the story, or indeed terribly important to the story).
My advice to parents is this - if you want to control what your teens access on the net, you'd better be ready to get really tech-literate. As in spending a few hours getting to know the computer properly literate. But therein lies the problem - most parents simply don't have the time to get as literate on the computer as their teens do, because they have *jobs* to do in the afternoon when the teens are home alone after school with the computer, learning all of its secrets. That means that you've got to spend some of your precious free time on the weekends - and I know that my dad would rather spend his free time playing Bicycle Bridge.
--- Bwah?
Something I'm thinking of doing when I've got little ones running around is putting their pc's behind a special gateway. This way I can block off specific websites, ports, etc for their subnet. Maybe even a way to disable/enable the internet depending on the time of day. (chron jobs maybe?) You could also log everything because all the net traffic would be comming over one line. I know it isn't the perfect answer but it seems better and cheaper if using linux than software solutions. If I had it logging some stuff I'd just do random checks of the logs for stuff that wasn't allowed. This would all be pretty invisible to the children too. Keep the gateway under lock and key and I'd consider my self pretty lucky if my kid was 1337 enough to hack my box.
Oops!
I've had unrestricted internet access since before i can remember. My parents have tried to restrict my access in many ways without actually having to pull the plug (because I still need it for school), but so far I've gotten too smart for them ;-). My parents are non-tech people, so they just enabled the mcafee privacy something that needs a password to get on the internet. No problem, all I need to do is control-alt-delete it and I'm in. They also tried imposing Internet Explorer's restrict-certain-websites thing, but there are numerous ways to get around something like that (I downloaded firebird, and even if I was forced to use Internet Explorer I could just route my connection through a proxy server :P).
Since you've got three machines connected to what I assume is a broadband connection of some kind, I'm also going to assume you have some kind of router/firewall in place already.
Rip it out and replace it with an old pentium running some flavor of linux, BSD, whatever you're comfortable with, and set up Squid on the box as a transparent proxy.
Your kids will not be able to bypass this--at least at the workstation level (I'm not going to speculate on the ability of your children to hack your firewall) and you'll have a log of EVERY URL visited from any machine on your network.
Add something like Webalizer to make the log files more friendly, and you're done.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
For a 15 year old, I wouldn't really be worried. The only real risk would be pervs chatting them up (especially if they were a girl) But even there I'd probably stop worrying around 13 or 14 or so.
:))
Teach your kids that "don't talk to strangers" applies online as well. (Oh, and be sure to tell them what a stranger is. When I was a child I met a girl who though "Stranger" was simply a synonym "pedophile". I told her it meant anyone she didn't know and she didn't believe me).
Definitely tell them not to ever give out their email address, or download software (probably don't want to give them admin access, unless they are a geek, in which case you should give them a Linux machine
But you have to be age appropriate as well. Something like the stileproject could seriously warp a little kid. Or at least it seems like it could, I'm not a psychologist.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Sir, not to disrespect, but I'm sure your wife doesn't know about EVERYTHING that you do on the internet. And if she does, something is either very wrong, or very right.
See, it all boils down to the fact that the internet is just like any other information medium, be it the library, the video shop w/ an "adult" section in back, or Pigsty, the dirty little kid who hangs out on the playground singing "milk milk lemonade..." That is to say, you'll never be able to keep it in check. It is outside of your sphere of influence.
What can you do? Prepare your kids for what they may run into. Give them feedback and guidance on how to deal with certain situations. Tell them what is appropriate and what is not. After that, its all up to them. As it should be. Humans need practice making decisions for themselves and not having everything honed down, toned down, and spoon fed to them. To do so is a disservice to both the human spirit, and your children's ability to function and think on a level that you may not be comfortable with.
The fact is, you can't protect them. You can only help guide and instruct them.
And if its really such a big deal, take the computer away and be a mean parent. They'll forgive you eventually, and its probably for the best anyway. Its not like its the end of the world, and there's no need for you to cave just cuz Johnny S and Susie Q have computers in their rooms.
Anyway, its all about the trust, man. Trust that your kids know what they're doing and if it gets out of hand, offer help and advice instead of anger and retribution. We get enough of that from The Christain God.
---
Which is worse, kids spending their allowance money on drugs or on internet access downloading porn to masturbate to?
"Don't forget to clean off your keyboard when you're done."
"Mom, that wasn't me. Last time, Dad didn't clean off the monitor either. And I didn't visit Jizzfest.cum. He used my profile!"
To add to the parent poster: Most would agree that there are dangers to the internet, which your rules are there to protect. When those rules are broken, you should have a pre-set plan of consequences. On the part of the child the punishment is a deterent, but you must be strong enough to cary through so that they can also learn from the experience of breaking the rule. I can not stress enough that you should not cave to their 'needs' and be afraid of taking the computer away as punishment.
With your rules it would seem logical that removing the computer (or internet connection) would be a fair punishment.
As the old saying goes: Spare the Rod, Spoil the child. The older I get (I am only 22 now) the more truth I see in that
I know this is not a popular view these days, but whatever rules you make about internet use in your house are fair - it's your house.
Keep in mind, though, that all teenage boys wank over naughty pictures - this is normal. And no-one wants to admit that to their parents - that would be embarrassing for the kid.
If you're concerned, have all internet traffic enter your house through a box you control, and install dans guardian on it. I'm too lazy to link to it - GIYF.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
We have unlimited access at home, each of us kids have our own computer (3 of us, me being the oldest "kid" at 21, the youngest is currently 15), plus my dad has a few PCs and a central server for the home network (6 or 7 PCs in total). None of us have been damaged by what we have seen on the internet.
To protect your kids from stuff on the net we all deem "evil", such as unsolicited email containing fraud scams and porn, teach them how to identify it instead of blocking it from them. If you want your kids to walk on their own feet one day, help them see the world as it is. And about porn, I'm sure most of you (male) parents went looking how to get a copy of Playboy when you were the age. The net just makes the access a little easier.
parasight.de
I love it. /. parenting. Finally.
... you can go off the pill"
:) It was a good setup.
.02's? Kids need privacy. Kids need discipline. Kids aren't the parents. Install some snooping software. Just like my mom used to pick up on the phone extension -- though she never knew I knew how to wire up a few parts from Radio Shack and a blinking led always told me of a 2nd extension going off-hook.
[me]: "HONEY -- I'm ready now
The sad thing is I grew up with a C=64. My parents didn't understand what I was doing. Thus they didn't _want_ to know. Nothing illegal, of course...
Today, they _still_ don't understand what I do or how I do it. Fine by me -- and now it pays the bills. Almost ironical.
My
Oh yeah. Tell them about using protection (!) PLEASE. Too many Windows boxes spewing spam from virus'. Or go buy them a Mac if you're tired of the patches, but I digress.
The worst punishment I ever got was getting grounded to my parents room. No computer. No TV. Oh my gosh, only books. Funny -- I still like to read.
Since she's sitting next to me, playing Diablo 2, I asked my 14-year-old daughter about her net access.
"I find little weird web sites, I look at them," she says. "When I close the [browser] window, it's just an automatic reaction to parents in the room, a matter of privacy."
Yes, I've caught my eldest daughter reading disturbing web sites -- CNN, Christian fundamentalists, anime, Slashdot. Lord knows, she's found some very strange online comics. She asks the most damnable questions sometimes -- and that's just fine with me.
I can't teach my daughters to respect my privacy by snooping in her activities. I trust my kids. They know their parents trust them, and that they can come to us with any question; we know what they are doing, where, and with who, not because we dictate, but because our kids want us involved in their life.
All about me
I find it disturbing and racist that you would make such a statement that separates two groups of people like that.
Irish people are perfectly capable of being paedophiles and I object to your racist and horrific implication that the two cannot coincide, you insensitive clod!
---
By the time your kids are in or approaching highschool, the groundwork has been laid. Either you have a strong, nurturing relationship, and your kids have learned to think responsibly for themselves; or they're snotty brats who distrust their overbearing and indifferent parents, who will lie to you at every opportunity, and who will bend with the winds of peer pressure. Either way, they have already been faced with every temptation you wish they didn't know about.
You need to give them the tools to make good choices: self-respect, self knowledge, curiosity, empathy, fairness, and the other strengths of responsible adulthood. And if they have a healthy amount of curiosity and are not malformed, OF COURSE they'll be fascinated by porn. Weren't you? Like the other poster said, isn't that what the Internet is for?
Little kids are another story, of course. They are still assembling their tool kits. You need to guide them through the discovery of life's seamier chapters. But fortunately, little kids won't know how to circumvent firewalls, and they don't need computers in their rooms. You have a few years to get them ready. And what they need from you has nothing to do with technology.
So I laugh at the folks who are aghast at their 16 year old kids running Grand Theft Auto Vice City. But I shudder at my friends who bought it for their ten-year-old son. WTF?
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
I have 3 children (16,10 and 5), they all have computers in thier rooms that have unfiltered Internet access. The only real hard and fast rules we have is that they are not allowed to talk to people on IM or e-mail that they do not know, never give out your e-mail address to people you don't know, and never agree to buy anything. The last one became necessary when my 10year old joined Columbia records and got 10 free CD's for a penny!!! Now the gotcha's. My kids know that I can see everywhere they go by checking my firewall logs. If I check my logs and and see anything I feel is worth discussing then I will. Nothing will stop a 16 year old from viewing porn like having to face dad for an open and frank discussion that starts out as "so son, notice you've been looking at a lot of sex pages..Do you think all women are like that?? I noticed you were spending most of your time on pages where the women were doing X. Why is that ?? " He would much rather I just yell at him and forbid it, but I refuse. Basically I am using shame as a weapon..Will probably have to pay for it via therapy for them later...Oh well.
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms...
There is no way to prevent the access. There is no way to prevent desire. Acknowledge this and adapt. Teach ethics, treat people (including your kids) with respect, and behave honorably. Simple.
The alternatives suck.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
It was discovering gay Internet communities that stopped me from hating myself. In most areas of the U.S., teens that question their sexuality aren't allowed to have anything resembling a constructive dialogue that helps them come to terms with themselves. I lived in an oppressively homophobic, fantically religious small town where being gay was outright unthinkable. The innate homophobia in high school doubled the effect. I HATED it, almost became suicidal. But the Internet helped me bring my confusing "differences" into sharper focus, gave me the chance to feel less alone, and provided me hope for eventually escaping the evangelical confines of my surroundings. Access to gay youth resources on the Internet would be the first thing to go if a filter was in place. Especially if a log file was being recorded. The last thing a gay teen wants to do is tip his parents off about his sexuality before he wants to!
The answer to that last question, of course, is also yes.
Peter,
This your dad. Listen, it is 10;30pm on a Saturday night. Why don't you go out and get laid; I'll give some money and point you in the right direction. Otherwise, get your hand off your pecker, close that god-awful slashdot page thing you're so obsessed with and curl up with some milk and cookies.
Love,
Papa Kieser
What exactly is your goal in doing this? To prevent them from looking at porn? To keep pedophiles from chatting up your kids? Under your rules, your kids could look at porn all they want as long as they're willing to let you know about it, in other words, you hope your children's shame in their parents knowing about their sexual predilictions should keep them in line? Or you just want your kids to be honest about their sexuality with you? Both of those seem a little weird to me.
If I were you, I'd just use some kind URL sniffer on, and check to make sure they wern't looking at anything really weird.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
First as a parent, (i'm not one) you should trust your children. The internet is like any public place, you can't be with your child 24/7. Maybe it's because I'm not a parent, but my parents always instilled the expected behavior from me and then let me choose what it is I was going to do. This has made me a better person in life as I've made my own mistakes and have learned that what they usually say is true. So I tend to listen and accept what they have to say not as rules but as life learning experience.
Point two; I dont want to sound demeaning but parents such as yourself who set rules on things they have little to no control over end up having children who lie to your face. They end up at Billy's house using the internet to talk to some pedophile. Something you could of had control over if it wasn't for the gestapo rules as it would of been in the open. So instead of saying listen, talking to X people over the internet isn't cool and having a positive discussion with your child. You simply have no idea what's going on. Your child ends up on the run with some pedophile in Mexico and you are wondering what happened.
With children I think that the best thing is to simply let them know is that just like anywhere else the Internet is a public place. Just like I will teach my child not to talk to strangers, I'll teach them not to talk to strangers on the internet. At least not in a personal non-academic way and when they are old enough to make the decision that they feel they can do what they want, then thats their choice. However rules like "keep the door open" while on the internet will do nothing for you. Your major mistake is believing that your rules will stop a curious child, they won't. Instead of being a rule gestapo, explain to your children the positives and negatives, tell them what they need to hear so that they can expect certain things and already be alert.
Lastly, be parents. I think the problem today is that alot of parents think that setting "rules" is all they need to do when in reality understanding their children and inquiring about their lives is what parenting is all about. Teach your children, rules mean nothing if they don't know how to handle life like situations. The internet isn't the mistake, public schools aren't the mistake, life situations aren't mistakes. Stop blaming society or the internet or whatever because simply, they are here and everything has problems. It's how your child conceptualizes the problems, issues and general life situations they will have to deal with on daily basis that will determine if you are a parent, or simply a care taker. That choice is truly the parents, and the behavior of the child is truly reflective upon them. My mom used to say, "the smartest children aren't just the ones that can win spelling bee's, or get straight A's. They are usually the ones who can tell if you're bullshitting or not and have toyed with you just to get to see you cards." I guarantee you, your kids can't call a bluff, you've never even explained to them what a bluff looks like.
Heh, I think i'll call my mom now and thank her. She really prepared me for life, not just tell me to follow rules.
The same prinicple applies with many of the evils online (pornogrophy, violence, fostering bad relationships, etc..)
Pornography is evil now? Wow, I'm right up there with Saddam Hussen. But where the hell are my 70 virgins!?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Or do what I do and just TELL them that you're logging their traffic. Knowing that anything they say online can be used against them by dad does wonders to keep them honest.
And don't give me lip about not trusting my kids...I trust my kids with my life. It's the million other perverts who would lure them to the local Motel 6 that I don't trust. Children, even teenagers, need guidance and need their parents to keep an eye on them and prevent them from getting into potentially dangerous situations. In my case, I do that by occassionally snooping on their communications. Considering that I've already caught my nine year old daughter posing as a 13 year old, AND caught a local high school kid propositioning her, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me that monitoring is a BAD thing.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
I don't want to preach; but, to me, the trust issue (as mentioned earlier) is the key to raising children. Trust them and let them know you trust them. But, children will screw up and loose that trust. Let them know that the trust is gone and let them know what it will take to get that trust back. And LET THEM EARN THE TRUST BACK. I have seen many parents that "give up" when a child becomes untrustworthy. When that happens, the child doesn't have anything to strive for in his/her parental relationship. Is this "Trust See-Saw" easy to handle? No, of course not.
Let me get back to the topic: Start young with teaching children what is appropriate and inappropriate. (For the parents with teens, it may not be too late to start, but it will be tough if you have to convince you child that certain clothes he/she has been wearing for two years are now inappropriate.) Is it easy to discuss this with children? It shouldn;t be hard.
Let me use a personal example: My son, at the time was age 9, went to spend the night at a friends house. While there they watched an austin powers movie. This came out in conversation a couple of days later. My wife and I were horrified that this happened, but we didn;t yell and hoot and holler. We asked about the movie and he told us about it (We had seen this movie a couple of years before at a friends house (Strange how things work out)) During this conversation we talked about attitudes toward women and sexuality. And we talked about whe we found certain things objectionable. But it wasn't a lecture. we were having a conversation and he understood why it was inapproriate when we had finished.
You may say, "Bah, kids can't handle that kind of talk." Well, you'd be suprised. It you are honest and open with your children in ALL areas, they will learn and respond in this type of conversational enviornment. A few months ago, My son was at an overnight with a few friends and a movie was going to be shown. He asked what it was rated and got a couple of friends to go into another room and play cards (or a board game, I can;t remember. He's in bed now, or I would ask him). But I think that takes some maturity. Maturity that comes from learning how to think along the lines of what is appropriate and what is not.
How does one get to a point where we can trust the kids to make good choices? As parents we should make good choices ourselves and explain these to the kids. Dinner is a great time for these discussions. And whenver something comes up, don;t hide it from the kids. Let them in one what is happeneing. Another example: A student from where I teach was kicked out of his house. We let him stay with use for a bit while things got straightened out. My children were, of course very curious about what was going on, and we told them about the neglect, abuse, and everything going on. My children were very welcoming and treated this person as a brother fot the time he was here. Since then, my son has volunteered his time at some charities in the area for other "transients."
Again, bak to the topic: In the manner of the internet, as with all areas, be open and honest. When you are deleting spam from your email, there is a great learning experience for the kids. "Look at this junk. Enlarge your breasts..." and get into a discussion about the previlence of sexual attitudes in society. It works, kids listen, and they will understand. Yesterday, When I was playing my father-in-law on some online chess and my kids were helping out, I got an offer across AIM (Through trillian) to check out some girls webcam. (Yea right.) Well what a great learning experience about the inappropriateness of the internet. We even went to the link, and sure enough, it was filtered out.
which leads me to...
Don;t let children surf without proper filtering. All of our computers run through an E-Smith server (modified red-hat small office gateway and server) which runs an excellent free SquidGuard filter. This doesn't mean that you don;t t
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
"One horsepower is the amount of energy it takes to drag a horse 500 feet in one second." (unattributed)
That dosn't make any sense at all. It would take far more then one horse power to drag a horse that fast with any resonable amount of friction.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I'm 20, and I have no children, but the other day (seriously) I was thinking about what kind of internet access I would allow my kids to have..
Proxy port 80: Use something like squid and proxy up port 80 and don't allow any regular traffic on 80 otherwise. Then tell your kid that you can see what websites they're checking out, just to keep them accountable. Doesn't mean you actually have to check the caches constantly. If ever..
No "Speedy Minimization" Rule: I remember the times I was talking to girls when I was younger, it wasn't anything bad, it was just something I didn't wish to share with my parents. I can understand seeing your kid quickly minimizing a photo of albino midget porn, but emails/IMs, I think that's just as intrusive as insisting that your kids let you bug their telephone conversations. How would you like your kids listening on a separate phone to all your conversations?
that is all,
Klowner
I strongly advise you to let your children make mistakes and learn about the world. Trying to protect them from every possible ill of the world will backfire and surely by the time they graduate high school they will have many problems. I still have serious social problems as a result of my parents control structures. I've also had to learn lessons that people with normal parents had learned as teenagers. Believe me trying to protect your children from the world is just a recipe for a whole lot of pain in their future.
And I only think it is because of our Puritan society. I know legally you are required to be 18 to look at porn, but it is a consequence of our overly Puritan society.
Unfortunately, our nation's leaders don't seem to understand that once our children hit puberty (esp. male), they will want to get some sexual gratification.
I say let them look at all the porn they want. If they are male, they probably already are looking at it. And don't deny that you didn't look at it when you were a kid.
The only thing you should forbid them against is blantantly illegal activity, such as cracking into other people's computers. If they become interested in hacking, setting up a local honey pot and let them play around with it.
The old and much misinterpreted saying.
The rod spoken of is a shepards' crook ("thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me"), not a stick for beating children. Guidance, not violence, is what is being prescribed.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
I'd think specifically about what your worries are before laying down laws. A well-adjusted young adolescent won't be Scarred for Life by anything on the internet (except the stuff that scars us all :). I'd worry more about whether or not they're able to contextualize what they see or read -- since they WILL encounter porn, hate speech, etc. eventually, rules or no. In any case, I'd drop the "door open" policy, at least for the older ones: adolescents need some privacy to be able to start leading their own lives. And I'd be wary of surveilling your kids in general, unless there is something specific to worry about (i.e., lots of gun-related websites).
That explains it. If they're Eagle Scouts, then they already see enough porn when the scoutmaster asks them to "stay after".
No. I mean, not too often. Well, sometimes. Okay, fine, I'm not really 6'4", fabulously wealthy, and have a 9 inch cock. Under my red mini-skirt. Which I wear when I pick up hot 18-year old sluts who will do anything for money!
Now that I've gotten my smart-assedness out of my system, I think it's time you looked at the basics of human development.
Kids grow. In doing so, they will expect their own privacy and freedom. With that goes responsibility. Would you let your 11 year old go to a party unsupervised? Probably not. Would you let your 15 year old? Well, judging from your attitude, probably not. I would. As long as your kids are getting good grades and have their shit pretty much together, let them do their own thing. If they want money from you, make them mow the yard. If they want a ride, tell them to clean up their room first. If they choose to walk rather than that, don't bitch at them. It's their choice. You need to slowly relax the reins, so that when they are 18 and go off to college, they have the skills and maturity to adjust, rather than just going "Woo-hoo! I don't have to listen to anyone anymore! I'm gonna fuckin' party". That's a big part of the problem. If you think your kids aren't interested in sex, intoxicants ( drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, whatever ), bands, parties, etc., you're wrong. Weren't you? It's a matter of degrees, and knowing what is healthy.
And doesn't it strike you as odd that your child feel the need to lie to you? My personal experience has been that it's easier to tell the truth, so I don't waste time lying unless it's worth it. Ex. : if you could just tell a cop : "Look I busted my headlight last week, but I haven't had time to replace it" and he just gave you a warning, would you feel the need to to tell him you hadn't noticed it, someone must have hit your car in the parking lot? I wouldn't bother if I could, but is telling the truth worth the hassle of going to court and paying a fine? Not in my books, because whether the cop believes my lie or not, noone is hurt ( except for maybe the county, who is deprived of a $150 that they could waste as well as my tax dollars are ).
A computer is a tool. Internet access is a problematic tool, because it's a gateway to so much. What are you really worried about? Kids looking at porn? What, and you never looked at porn? Never masturbated? If you say no, you're full of shit. Being exposed to violence/hateful themes, etc? That's around kids every day. Same for drugs. So, unless I'm missing something, the only thing that kids are exposed to on the internet that isn't around regularly, are sexual predators. And those are there in the real world too. Basically, the only thing I would be worried about are the people that they might interact with online. But if you haven't explained to them that are people in the world that would like to hurt them, and that they need to be careful in who they trust, then they're not equipped to walk down to the cornerstore, let alone do anything else.
So the same basics that apply to the real world apply online. And please don't rob your children of a chance to mature in a healthy, human, responsible manner. If you're going to worry about anything, get on them about their grades, try to interest them in science, art, nature, etc.
If they want to look at pictures of naked chicks, or read about guns, drugs, whatever, don't sweat it. ( hell, the eleven year old is probably just looking up pictures of guy/girl he/she thinks is cute/smart/cool/whatever and doesn't want dad to know because he/she's embarrassed ). In my opinion, expose children to the world, let them read, talk to them, and most of all : tell and show them what you think, and then let them make up their own minds.
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
When I was a kid, my parents were more concerned with my awareness of the fact that internet information can be misleading and incorrect.
g 2.com/r g.net/
I briefly went through a stage where the sudden availability of contraban information was a novelty, and I eagerly accumulated a stockpile of useless drivel from the 'anarchists cookbook' and similar web publications, but when I realized that my parents really didnt care, I lost interest.
The web can be extremely useful and informative, and the nature of the content that teenagers view is very much an extension of their level of maturity. My parents didnt establish any rules, and as long as my school work got done, the internet connection was mine to do with as I pleased as long as I wasnt doing anything illegal.
What finallly caused me to forsake the infantile obsession with contraban material was the discovery of content really worth exploring. When I discovered project gutenberg, I chose to spend my time reading classics online rather than doing something silly and unproductive.
The advice I have to give is this: parents who want their children to browse the web responsibly should help their children find good web sites with meaningful content that can help them expand their interests. As soon as something interesting and productive becomes available, most people lose interest in something that is purportedly 'taboo'.
Additionally, if you stress that certain content is associated with social stigma, it is almost definitely going to arouse curiousity. Parents who want to discourage their children from viewing pornographic content should explain to their children the nature of real, meaningful, intrapersonal relationships, and let them see for themselves that pornographic content is a perversion, and an assanine waste of time.
Parents who want to provide their children with good internet resources that will help kids expand intellect and interests include:
http://ibiblio.org/
http://lii.org/
http://h2
http://www.everypoet.com/
http://gutenbe
Does it make a difference in my behavior? Verily it does, but not in the way you would expect.
The idea behind regulations that increase the ease with which you can see what your kids are doing, is to prevent them from doing something stupid behind your back. But that doesn't work, and here's why: People hate being distrusted. They hate the feeling that somebody thinks they must be watched. They'll rebel against it. For one thing, they probably think that they're smarter than you think they are. Whether they are or not depends of course on the individual person in question.
In any case, creating regulations of transparency is bound to make people secretive and do things they probably wouldn't do if they were allowed to.
Here's a better way to achieve the openness and safety that you want: teach your kids how to be smart. Start as early as you can. Start today. What you *don't* want to do, parents of teenagers, is suddenly start a throat-shoving campaine of whatever new thing you've decided to teach them. But try to give them an idea of what is safe and what isn't.
You can trust your kids. They know, and you can help them to know, where sleeze is. Sleeze is easy to identify; Drive your six year old through the local porno district. You child doesn't need to be told it's a bad place to be.
What you do with transparency regulations is declare that your household is not going to be an open place where everybody can trust one another.
A better solution to your problem is to encourage your kids to tell you what's going on, to be open, to be your friend, rather than treating them like monkeys that have to be watched. Now, the best way to encourage somebody isn't the way that I had experience with with my parents, that is, yelling and ranting about it. The best way is to treat your kids like you want to be treated. Be their friends. Be open with them. Give them the benefit of the doubt. In doing this, you'll truly create a mutually open relationship with them.
I know you're very worried about the harm that could come to your kids, with a silent telephone to nign anyone. But please remember, these sorts of things are blown WAY out of proportion by the media. When I read stories about kids getting into deep shit on the net, one thing always seems to be evident: *They were asking for it*. Teach you kids not to ask for it. You'll have far better luck than just preventing them from asking.
Thanks.
Yes! Protect them from virtual dangers (those scary pixels!) by beating them!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The guy made a statement about his control of the home network. You responded by personally attacking him, basically calling him a tight-assed bastard... shame on you. He makes a VERY important point... his hardware, his electricity, his rules; I happen to think he's got every right to do this.
Here's a point you're missing; he's responsible for that network.
That's right... his house, his hardware, his electricity, HIS RESPONSIBILITY, including legally. The last thing I want is the RIAA/MPAA/FBI coming to my door because I gave my teen a little too much freedom on his computer. How many thousands did that little girl's mother have to pay because she was downloading music? I know you know the story I'm talking about, discussed ad nauseum here on Slashdot.
I have no problem letting my kids learn. I let them fall, skin their knees (my wife has a little trouble with this), even occasionally burn themselves, after all, the two best teachers are pain and loss of money. What I will not do is sit back while they fill their minds with stuff they may or may not be ready to handle, or while they get chatted up by some pedophile. And don't even give me that "you're just a paranoid old man" crap... Until you've done the number of sexual assault exams I have (including pediatric), you can sit down and be quiet.
My kids have met "big brother," and he is me. I'm not overprotective, just watchful. If I see them access something inappropriate, I may not say anything; I may just watch to see what they do. They best measure of your personal ethos and integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.
Once your kids have proven themselves, consider turning them loose... but trust is EARNED, folks.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I can't wait for my son to get old enough to try his first hack attempt on the home network. He'll probably think he's got m4d 5k1llz, but I was phreaking and wardialing decades before he ever touched a keyboard.
Might be an interesting contest... I'm kind of tickled by the thought... bring it on.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
There are a lot of great things to do that don't involve sitting at a computer, and kids should be exposed to them. Of course browsing /. and looking at porn have a place in a teenage nerd's life, but there should be more to it than that. I'd argue that any time you're skipping school to play Doom, there's something wrong.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
The problem I have with your post, is that it implictly claims that Islam is evil.
I do not agree. The poster was being ironic; the only people who say Hussein is evil are Bush and his cronies, usually as a backpeddling justification for murdering his kids.
In reality nobody, or at least nearly nobody, is evil. Evil in the classic movie-villain sense is "I'm bad, and I like it." It's the antagonist dressed in black and torturing, killing, and maiming because he's *evil* and that's *just what he does*.
In real life evil is harder to find. Real people generally consider themselves good. Bin Laden, for example, is clearly not evil. He is working from a dissagreeable (and one might even say faulty) perspective. Saddam Hussein is not evil, he has different priorities and (yes) different beliefs from we the observers. But I'm sure HE believes he is good and doing the right thing, at least most of the time.
The poster was saying, I think, amounts to "What I do is evil? Funny, I don't feel evil." Or something like that.
To get back on topic somewhat: Pornography is evil like Saddam is evil, which is to say it isn't. Hell, people can't even agree over whether pornograhy is *bad*, much less evil.
In no way is any of the above commentary on Islam or any religion, except where it implicitly insults all christians. Didn't catch that? That's the trouble with implicit satements...
I want my Cowboyneal
Isn't this something that Slashdot should not be attempting to answer? How many of the slashdot readers can say that they are successfully raising a child? How many can say to this parent what they did correctly?
Personally, I wouldn't consult slashdot for anything family related. I think it's just plain silly to ask a bunch of nerds and geeks like me about how to raise your kid. It's like asking your kids what you should do with their computer.
Yes, it's a well known fact that since nerds and geeks never have sex, they can't be parents.
Seriously though, there's a few hundred thousand people (maybe a few million at the point, I don't keep up and the number of registrants) that read and post to this site. You don't think at least SOME of them are currently or in the past have raised children? Even successfully?
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
My wife is a consenting adult, whom I trust completely. That trust has been built over a period of years, and is mutual. Having spent birthdays, holidays, etc apart due to miltary duties for months and months, we've both had ample opportunity to violate our marriage vows, and we have not. She can be hard-core, and is more than able to take care of herself (I've watched her shoot guys down... brutal.) I would never snoop on my wife, because we have built up that trust, and because she is MORE than capable of thinking and reasoning for herself.
That, my friend, is the difference between a consenting adult and a minor child. Why is there an age of consent? It's because younger children and teens generally don't have the ability, breadth of experience, or perspective to assent to certain activities. This is why slime like NAMBLA are so fundamentally wrong. A child cannot consent to activities like they advocate, because they cannot adequately appreciate and understand the ramifications of those activities.
My wife is of the same mind on this matter, by the way. I prefer to think of myself as a watchful guardian rather than a "snoop" (it's all semantics anyway). If I'm not there to help them interpret what they see, then who will be? Who will love them enough to help them understand? Who will address the tough questions with them? (and thanks to open communication and a little technology, I'll be able to anticipate some of those critical conversations).
It's all good, my young friend, and it's an absolutely beneficient effort with nothing less than their best interests at heart... A labor of love, if you will.
It would be a lot easier for me to say "sure, go ahead and do whatever the hell you want..." but I love them too much to do that. They may not appreciate it at the time (I certainly didn't), but God willing, they may eventually come to be thankful for all those hours and all that effort.
It took me until my late 20's to realize exactly how hard my parents had worked to make me a quality human being, and I feel that it's my parental obligation to return the favor with my own children.
You may disagree, of course.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I'm a 14-year-old Linux geek. I don't look at porn. My friends all say that I'm odd and strange and I'll end up horribly messed up for life.
It's not that I'm odd, it's just that I've walked in on my (50-year-old) dad looking at porn one-too-many times.
So here's a somewhat interesting point of view on internet restrictions: should parents have rules, too?
The problem here is defining what is bad for someone. Here some simple guidelines are probably safest. Just about any healthy teenager is going to want to check out pornography at some point. To deny this is at best unrealistic or at worst an outright lie, and any kid with a normal quota of common sense is quite capable of perceiving that you are lying if you claim it's "bad" for them.
I guess the thing is to not let any behaviour get obsessive. Sure, check your logs, but leave some leeway for exploration.
Perhaps an injection of cynicism might help: educate your kids into asking themselves what people are asking of them.
It's interesting to read some of the rantings of people who don't have children, but who are (in their opinion) experts in parenting and raising kids, simply because they were once children. This is rather like football players thinking that they can coach, simply because they've played the game. Yes, good coaches frequently were good players, but many of the finest KNEW what to do, but weren't necessarily as gifted at doing it. However, they are almost always the product of good coaching themselves.
... ... ...
Likewise, good parents generally are the product of a good example, even if they aren't perfect and morally pure as the driven snow. Good parents generally trust their children, but also remember what it was like when they were kids themselves, and will use that knowledge to verify that their own kids aren't doing things that might endanger them.
Yes, I trust my sons, but it's not blind trust. They know that I will come into the room unannounced, and that I will want to know who they're chatting with, who they're exchanging e-mail with, and so on. They know why I'll do this.
BTW, on a lark, I posed as an older female one time to chat with my son and one of his friends. It was enlightening (to say the least) some of the language I saw. I offered to "teach them a lesson. They eagerly agreed. My lesson?
"Never
Never
Never
chat the way you have here, unless you are certain you know who you're talking to. This is your dad. Go to bed."
I pointed out that I could have been a nutcase (which I am), or worse, the father of my son's girlfriend. I pointed out that my son would've never seen her again if it had been her father posing as this older female.
Open door where the computer is? Check.
Unannounced walk-ins? Check.
Same rules for dad as the sons? Check.
Trust my sons? Check
Verify that they're being honest with me? Absolutely.
Tim
Face facts: all of these things exist and are real. You cannot shield or shelter your children from anything that is real. Eventually they will come in contact with some or all of these "hidden, naughty, inappropriate" ideas, images, and contacts. So as a parent, you have a choice: you can teach them to think for themselves, and introduce them over time to some of these things, guiding them and helping them to develop their own ideas about ethics, morality, and justice. Or, you can try to shield them until they inevitably leave your care. This can succeed or fail; it's difficult to know which has worse consequences. In one case, you have a child - now an adult - still incapable of dealing with the world around him or her, frightened and vulnerable with no independent thinking ability. In the other, you have a child - now an adult - with an unhealthy fascination and/or shame at knowing the existence of these things. And since you've failed to shield them from this dangerous knowledge, they've acquired it instead from others - riddled no doubt with inaccuracies and colored by fear of discovery. Is that any way for a 25-year-old to live? This will be your child...
In short, nothing on the Internet is any more or less dangerous than the real-world counterparts that so worried parents 20, 50, or 500 years ago. There's more of it, it's more accessible, and it's centralized. But there's nothing new here. Any parenting philosophy you have in the physical world can and should be applied as-is in the virtual world. And I hope for the sake of society and your own children's happiness that it's one of openness, honesty, and independence. Since nearly all children survive physically to adulthood today, your main function as a parent is to prepare your children mentally. Hiding reality will not serve them well.
I'm right now 16, almost 17, and I have a broadband-connected computer in my room. My dad is a DBA, and my mother barely knows how to use AOL. Both want me to stay away from "bad" internet sites. However, I set up the network, I built the computer, and they know that if I truly want to do something like that, I have the ability. But they trust me, and know that I can make my own decisions. The times when I've done something they think I shouldn't (and been caught) they punished me. But with the punishment, they also told me why what I did was wrong, and talked to me about why I would do something like that, and why I made that decision. However, they kept with the punishment even after they knew I was sorry, until the punishment they'd set was served. From all of this, not only do I pretty much agree with them on most of these things, but I follow it, because I know why I should. So educate your kids on what to do and trust them to do it, because you only cripple them when you shield them too much.
I may have given the wrong impression with my "big brother" comment. I'm not talking about a keyghost on every computer and hidden cameras... I'm talking about a simple proxy that keeps an eye on traffic, IPs, etc. The internet can be a pretty sick place, and I'd like to know if my kids are swimming in a cesspool. But to be fair, even the old BBS days had their share of the seedier side of life (the older posters here probably remember those days). That stuff has always been out there, the difference is that it's much easier to access via the net... a bona-fide shop of horrors is just a click away.
It's about earning trust. Reliability has to be proven and established, preferably via some kind of track record, or trial period (one the child may or may not know about). Give them one warning, just to let them know you are watching, then lower the boom, and for God's sake FOLLOW THROUGH.
Consider the alternatives...
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I was online very early - starting with CompuServe in 1984 when we rotated back to the States. At home and a buddies house with Commodores, Tandys, and an Apple II. We hacked everything we could and yeah, ultimately got busted by the MIBs who (fortunately) just gave us a warning. ASCII pr0n wasn't exactly what the doctor ordered, so the magazine variety had to suffice. I BBSed with a bunch of other folks, met a bunch of folks online - some I met IRL, others not.
The big bad Internet is just one of a myriad of tools that people use to communicate. It's replaced the phone for most teens I know. What you do online does not necessarily reflect who you are or what you're going to be. I remember folks spewing warnings about the evil of AD&D when I was a teen, the total overcompensation for it and raid of my personal library, the destruction (at a book burning sponsored by the Catholic Church) of 2 years of gaming notes and characters and worldbuilding and books. All in the name of "protecting me" from an evil influence. I think a lot of parents act *exactly* the same way about computing and the Internet.
My parents trusted me; every now and then I betrayed that trust and did something incredibly stupid and dangerous and was punished for it if I got caught. The majority of the time I did get caught. As a general rule, I followed my parents' guidelines. I didn't consider them unreasonable. I think I turned out okay so far: love my IT job, happy with my $, happy with my friends & family.
I smoked cigarettes, I drank alcohol. It was another time (I graduated from HS in '87) and we spent my early adolescence stationed in Spain - 3 years. Alcohol was freely available, I had a lot of money (for a junior high and high school kid) from various entrepreneurial activities. My buddies and I ate breakfast in a neighborhood bar before school and had a few beers there and played video games after school. When I got back to the States I got in trouble for both smoking and drinking, but my parents blew it off - they'd rather have me drinking at home under supervision than binging at some party. I learned moderation from my Mom.
As a parent, you certainly can shape the kind of person your kid is going to be - for good and for ill. But you are not the only influence on their life and certainly in adolescence aren't the most important one - not to them anyway.
The best thing you can do is spend time with your kids; I'm not talking hours and hours of mutually boring 'hanging out' or Interrogation 101. But spend some quality time with them, even if it's just a few minutes a day, to ask how they are, how stuff is going. Not a quiz on what they're learning, but ask them about stuff they're interested in - things important to them, how they fit in at school, gauge how happy or bummed they are, etc. Don't be all judgemental or you'll lose a fragile rapport.
In other words, treat them like a human fucking being and SHOW them you respect them by listening to them. You don't have to agree with them, just *listen*. Mete out discipline as needed.
Of course, the shoe is on the other foot too.
I'm a parent of a 13 year old girl. Our daughter's computer is NOT in her bedroom. There is zero chance it will ever be in her bedroom. I've also taken extra steps regarding email. I run our own mail server so I have complete control. I gave my daughter her own "vanity" domain and she can have any number of personalized email addresses that she wishes. I've also told her she can offer her friends email addresses, though no one has gone for that. All email going into and out of her domain is archived. I do NOT read the emails, however, it's just a safety precaution. I hope I never have a need to poke through her personal messages. BTW, I've never looked in her diary, either.
I've implemented reasonably good filtering of email (both her domain and my own) via SpamAssassin, so spam is extremely rare - porn spam has been non-existent. My daughter does not have the ability to change the SpamAssassin settings. All email attachments are scanned for virus by the mail server (clamav). Some file attachment types are refused completely (exe, scr, and other dangerous types).
I will NEVER EVER use any type of content blocking software such as NetNanny. They don't work, they are politically motivated, and they are complete shit.
-- Will program for bandwidth
I contest that Donald Rumsfeld IS pure evil. You just have to look at ANY video with him in it and you can tell. You can see how he is drunken with power, and insane with his own ego. I'm no Bush basher like some, he's an OK guy, but Rummy is SATAN! And before you troll me, please actually look at a video clip of him.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
I'm sure we'll get the entire spectrum of views on parenting here. Everyone wants to convince everyone else that their approach (or their parent's approach) is the best/worst/whatever.
;)
Let me jump in, then
So my parents robbed me of my Human Right to Rebellion. Any time I tried something "forbidden," they merely co-opted it, and took the thrill out of it.
Starting with building fires (as an eight year old), I was given full permission to build fires, with a few constraints. Dad taught me how to kindle a good blaze with only a single match and twigs. While I wasn't strictly forbidden from using paper, lighter fluid, plastic, or candles, they were regarded as being beneath contempt. I wasn't going to stoop to that level. Not even to shock my parents. Well, with all that, I had to give up my dream of becoming an arsonist.
So I got caught sneaking some wine a few years later. So Dad split a beer with me. Not long after, he mixed up some martinis. Did I want to drink? OK. I could, but it had to be at home, or I had to promise to call for a ride home if I were somewhere else. That was much too reasonable to rebel against, and, to this day, I have failed to be an alcoholic.
Then I wanted to stay out late with friends, or on a date, or something. This was the clincher -- I knew they couldn't come up with a reasonable way of relinquishing control. But they did. OK. I could do it. They were counting on me to be responsible, not get arrested, not get anyone pregnant, not get in trouble. But if I did, I shouldn't hesistate to call on them, and they'd pay my bail, rescue me, or do what they could to help out. Damn! Defeated again.
Then again, I had a college friend whose father used to beat him with a heavy oak dowell anytime he ever broke a rule. Now there was a kid who didn't know the meaning of "limits" when it came to drinking, smoking dope, and getting in trouble. Still, he got it out his system, and today we're pretty much both responsible (hah!) citizens. So ya never know.
I've known them all, and honor students, giften musicians and (in Canada) Air/Army/Sea Cadets or Boy/Girl scouts get just as drunk and have just as much sex as every other teenager.
Then I guess you don't know me yet. Honest to goodness Eagle Scout, musician, and now I can add teacher to the list.
and you have to accept the fact that they WILL try drinking,
Tried it. Age 19. Didn't like it.
Tried it again. Age 21. Liked it only for social occasions.
Still haven't ever been drunk.
they WILL have sex
Nope. In a relationship right now, and I'm waiting. One of the things I learned from my family was to let love grow rather than just make it.
and chances are they will try drugs
Got me there. Cafeene, all the way.
These are just things kids do in high school, and your restrictivness and controlling attitude may actually encourage these things to happen.
Yea, and look where it got me now. Professional teacher in a foreign country. What a waste of a life, huh?
I'd argue that any time you're skipping school to play Doom, there's something wrong.
Absolutely. If you're skipping school to play Doom, you seriously need a computer upgrade.
Actually the truly evil person just wants what s/he wants and doesn't much care about what anyone else feels about it.
If you want to know why pornography is evil then just think about it from the point of view of the photographic objects. Imagine that was you, how degraded would you feel if you were the subject of those pictures. What kind of psycological defences would you have to put up just to get up in the morning? Kind of makes you understand why so many people in the porn industry are addicts doesn't it?
As for Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, they are actually perfect examples of evil men, and Saddam has been known to execute the occasional relative himself, they are selfish, uncaring about others welfare, and malevolent. But then again, so is George W. Bush.
One last thing, every monster in history Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Napolean, Attila the Hun, Gengis Kahn, John Dillinger, Julius Ceaser, all of them, could honestly say that they didn't feel evil. Many of them felt that they were engaged in a noble enterprise. This is called self-delusion.
Automatic filtering and even surveillance is not about taking responsibility; it's about enforcement of rules. Law enforcement already takes care of that part. Those of us who say parents need to take more responsibility don't want another layer of enforcement. We want parents to do what only parents can do.
It is precisely the negligent tactic of caring about your own duties under the law before caring about your child's well-being that is the cause of so many problems.
If you have an open discussion with trust, integrity, and mutual respect, then your child will come to you crying or asking for advice the first time they encounter something that may frighten or confuse them. If you filter and forbid, they will keep it to themselves for fear of being accused of having broken the rules. Take your pick.
I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
I mean asking slashdot for legal advice is bad enough.
Asking slashdot for parenting advice is amazingly funny.
Next up, dating advice.
I control the router. I read the logs. When they turn 18, if they are still living in my house, we'll discuss it. Until then, what I say goes.
You sound a lot like my father, though the issue of computers never came up, since I turned 18 in 1972.
I haven't spoken to him in over 30 years. Perhaps you regard this as an example of successful parenting.
Perhaps you'll succeed equally well with your kids.
Tech Public Policy stuff
I understand that, as a parent, it's really hard to deal with the fact that your kids are developing hormones and may like to look at porn. The bigger, more legitimate worry is that they might start joining chat rooms and talking with people that might harm them.
As for the first item, I'd suggest you get over it. It's natural for kids to want to look at porn, and forbidding them isn't going to stop them from looking at it, it simply means they'll look for another way you simply don't know about, or go over to their friend's house and do it there.
As for the second point, simply explain to your kids that the same rules that apply to not taking rides from strangers applies to the Internet as well, and that they aren't to be giving out their personal information, etc.
Also, as far as surfing the internet goes, remember: if they're at home entertaining themeselves on the internet, at least they're not out doing other things that are guaranteed to do them physical harm (insert horrible mental image here.) Looking at sex is entirely different than having it.
My parents used to come down hard on my brother for using the internet to surf for porn, but I pointed out the very same things to them. He became angry and rebellious, but instead of stopping, simply found other routes, just as I predicted. He even went so far as to take the family car joy-riding a couple of times, which got him into worse trouble.
My parents finally decided to try things the other way. They sat him down, explained what their concerns were to him, and then - wonder of wonders - told him that they'd decided to trust him with the responsibility as long as he promised to be careful. They let him take the car out.
My parents found out later that, as he was filling the car up with gas, he proudly told the store clerk that he had the coolest parents in the world. And he did his best to not abuse their trust from that day on - because they treated him like an adult.
"Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
Would you consider the Bombing of Hiroshima to be terrorism? You could say we weren't 'deliberately' killing civilians, but surely you wouldn't argue that we didn't know a fuck of a lot of innocent people would die if we nuked a city. Or do you take the Israeli view that it doesn't matter if civilians die as long as you were trying to kill someone else and they just happened to be in your way?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
You don't need all these new fangled ideas to stop them browsing porn. Just give them a 28kbps modem, and let them at it. They'll soon get sick of waiting for crap to download and go out and find real people.
mogorific carpentry experiments
I must say I couldn't agree more.
My children are relatively grown up now (21 and 18) and I have only had internet access for them for the past 4 years or so - so the issue has never really arisen. I have no idea whether they have ever visited porn sites, but I would suspect its un-likely - but even if they had, so what.
The thing that worried me the most was with the youngest (daughter) and chat rooms. We explained the danger - but after that let her get on with it.
The important thing was, that we were always around for advice. As a result, both offspring are able to use the internet as a research tool, feel reasonably relaxed about buying things when appropriate through the net, and use instant messaging as a tool (the other evening I was conversing with my daughter 250 miles away at university about an experiment she had been doing with strain guages and whetstone bridges)
I've always found it to be very strange when people talk about wanting to protect children from certain kinds of things, like porn for example, or violent movies, or "bad" words especially. When I was growing up I never could figure out exactly what it was that I was being protected from. I did of course see and hear everything that I was supposed to be shielded from. Since I'm a human being and not a walking tape recorder I was no more affected by it than an older person would be.
Now that I'm in my 30's I've come to realize that the motivation that drives parents and society itself to engage in information control and censorship is not that any young people will be harmed by the things we hide from them, but that we are somehow uncomfortable with the idea of them seeing certain things. The whole protection bit is just a post-hoc justification.
The truth is that surfing the web is about as safe an activity as can be imagined. The real dangers lie outside in the real world, not in cyberspace. Now to be fair there are predators online, both sexual and financial. But if you haven't seen to it that your kid is street smart enough to identify and avoid them then you're just a piss-poor parent.
If you feel uncomfortable about the idea that your children might see certain things online then maybe you should investigate why you feel that way, because it sure as hell isn't because they're going to be damaged in some way from seeing it. A person would have to be force-fed something on a continual basis for an extended period for it to have an effect upon them.
Young people are human beings, not tape recorders and not pets with the power of speech. Their view of the world is formed from the conclusions they reach based upon the sum total of their experiences. The only real difference is in how much experience they have to draw from. By the time they are old enough to know how to use a computer, the basic nature of who they are is already in place. By the time they're teenagers they're basically as grown as someone can be without having been out on their own. There is not special transformation which takes place on the eve of their 18th (or 21st, or you name it) birthday whereby they are suddenly transformed from being an malleable infant into a mature adult.
I'm starting to ramble here. Really what I'm trying to say is that there isn't anything you need to protect your children from seeing or hearing because none of it is going to affect them in any special way. Also it isn't like you can protect them from the things you don't want them to find out about unless you lock them in a closet, and if you think that is a good idea please get psychiatric help soon.
Childhood is more of a cultural construct than anything else, at least how childhood is understood in our culture. The lies and deceit that children have to deal with is nothing short of criminal. I don't know about you, but I didn't much like being lied to when I was a kid. What made it worse is that the lies that are told are so pathetically transparent that I'm amazed anyone is fooled. I kept thinking that there must be something I was missing, some piece in the puzzle that would make the things I was being told make sense. It wasn't until I realized that most people were idiots that I understood that the way children are treated is simply an extension of that stupidity.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
If someone wanted to take naked pictures of me, it would make me feel pretty fucking good. But that's beside the point.
The point is, people choose to be in those images. A lot of times, they look like they are having a lot of fun. Believe it or not, but some people actually like having other people appreciate the way they look. Some women enjoy the power it gives them. And, shock of shocks, some women enjoy sex and what's more, some women actually are sexually aroused by posing naked!!!!!. Hard to believe I know.
But anyway, lets take your logical assertion to the extreme. What you are saying, is that paying people to do something that harms them in some way is evil. Well then doesn't that the entire US Military totally evil? I mean, I'd much rather be objectified then dead.
Hmm... reading the rest of your post, you might agree with me. But that still doesn't change the fact that all of the women in porn are there because they chose to be, and while some may feel dirty, most don't.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Saddam was delusional to the end. Not insane, but really more the way Bush is. He was (by choice) surrounded by Yes-men, and he avoided thinking about the negatives. It worked pretty well until he went up against another group of self-deluding morons with a bigger army. I don't believe that Saddam thought he was evil. He thought he was doing what he needed to to unite a racially and ethnically and religiously divided nation. He didn't know what he was doing was wrong, and he didn't know it wouldn't work.
George Bernard Shaw, IIRC said "The rational man adapts to the world, the irrational man tries to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress is dependant on irrational men". I used to love that quote. But Saddam and Bush are both irrational, and they have both changed the world. I don't know if I would call it progress.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Go move to Saudi Arabia then. You might like it better over there.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I think it might sound stupid, but what is it that you really want? Do you just want your children to never see porn? To not behave badly because of porn? To understand what society expects behavior wise so they're not outcasted?
At core, part of growing up is knowing how to survive. By this, I mean knowing things that can harm you directly (poison, pointy sticks, fire, drugs) and indirectly (murder (being murdered yourself or being arrested), possibly sex (unwanted children), drugs (arrest, dirty needles, etc)). If your point is solely to provide them with this information, then you actually *want* to teach your children porn so they know what can hurt them.
If you want to teach them enough to function in society like sheep (ie, doing actions without reasons), you'll certainly want to ban them from porn. You might do it to if you believe seeing porn will desensitize them from being able to function properly in society and more importantly a monogamous relationship.
My personal belief is that you really should talk your children like adults. By this, I mean you should try to explain to them all these things that would make you want to ban them from things. Yes, children aren't fully adults, but they will be adults soon. If nothing else, you need to discuss with them your beliefs. But, by the time they're 10 even, it's well beyond the point that you can so strongly integrate ideas into their psyche about the evils of something without a rational or emotional justification.
And rational justifications last the longest. The reason is of course because most people are rational beings. As such, the best thing you can do is speak to them on these terms. You're not trying to trick them into doing what's right, after all. You're trying to imprint your beliefs upon them because you've argued with yourself over why you believe the things you do (right?). And it won't be a perfect imprint. Pushing it won't help. Denying their right to make decisions will just breed resentment.
In summary, I'd suggest you try at an early age to teach them about life, from sex to death. By this, I mean you should describe their functions in life, not necessarily details. At the same time, you can convey the social normals (as you invariably do) as you progress through life. Language and culture are mostly learned through imitation. Imitation alone leaves only a hollow appearance, so please try to fill that shell well.
It isn't my place to say so, but you may wish to rethink that particular explanation. I certainly understand the reasons behind blocking certain sites, but sooner or later one of the kids is liable to figure out what's going on. What will you tell them if they confront you?
My mother lied on several occasions to 'protect me' in similar fashion. When I discovered what was going on it resulted in loss of esteem and trust, feelings of resentment and betrayal and even self-doubt and guilt (if my own mother--the woman who drilled into me that honesty was the highest virtue--feels the need to lie to me what sort of person must I be?). Sadly, I was realizing these things as she was dying of cancer and never was able to discuss the matter with her. I was 20 at the time; that I didn't discover her 'white lies' sooner--as my sister did--shows the sort of implicit trust I felt my mother and I shared while growing up. Even at age 33 it still bothers me.
I'm not a parent, so I am in no position to judge your explanation. All I will say is that I scarcely recally the 'you are not allowed to do X and I'm doing Y to prevent you from doing it' stuff my mother did (my sister could probably come up with a list, tho ;-). The instances where she lied about what she was doing, however, are as fresh in my memory as the day I discovered the lies.
You can't trust your children to act responsibly at 18 if you haven't trusted them before.
Face it: Your children will grow up, you can not be there to watch over them every minute of their lives. They WILL have to learn to make their own decisions and take responsibility - learning this involves the opportunity to make bad decisions.
The internet is a relatively safe world (fearmongering about paedophiles notwithstanding) and if you cannot trust them with a modem, you'll never be able to trust them with a car, or in a liqour store - or with choosing a life partner. Tell them about the dangers - and why they are dangers. Tell them that paedophiles are bad people, and that they should never, under any circumstance, meet anyone they only know over the internet. Tell them that porn may be interesting, but real women aren't like that. Tell them what real women think of boys who spend lots of time on porn. Tell them that they'll have to act respectfully if they want others to respect them. Tell them to never give out their phone number, address or other information. Tell them that fraud is fraud, even on the internet.
Maybe it'll help, but ultimately it's up to your kids, not you. It's their life and you can prepare them for it, but you cannot live it for them.
HA!
There are two types of strippers. There's the "My dad beat me and made me feel like a cheap whore so that's the only way I know how to live." strippers. Then there's the "My daddy gave me everything I wanted just for batting my eyelashes and now I've found that just by whipping out my tits I can get any man to give me whatever I want because I'm a spoiled bitch" strippers.
I'd say that the split is about 60/40 in favor of the former currently.
Yes, I am talking out of my ass.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
As the leader of a country, he is responsible for all of the people of the country. Whether they are related or not, they are 'his' people. If he wants to evade responsibility for them, then he should let them split off into a separate country. Still. even as citizens of a different country, it would have still been a war crime to gass entire cities (and a crime against humanity in either case).
I mean they were in the middle of uprising or whatever.
If you follow that logic, then the British government would be justified gassing Irish Catholics (and Bush might even be justified in gassing democrats). Even in war, there are rules which our society has drawn up. In either case, he has violated the rules of humanity which were codified after WW2..
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
As someone who had a hell of a childhood and was beset by complexes (handicapped from birth) and loneliness (my father died when I was 9 and my mother's later boyfriend treated me like a dog), I can just say there are some things you should know and do if you're interested in your childrens well being:
1.Talk to them. It sound so simple, doesn't it? But is it? We all know as adults just how difficult the modern world is and how litttle time we have, but that overdone cliche about spending quality time with your children is damn important. Controlling your kids too much will make them fear you and lose your trust. Show them that you love them and are interested in their lives. Make them feel like home is a place of warmth and saftey and that you will protect them with everything you've got.
2.Treat them like real human beings. There are so many guides that advocate rules and strict parenting, but neglect the fact that your children are real human beings with their own personalities and feelings. Treating them with respect (privacy is important for them too) will help them when the time comes on the internet that some sicko doesn't treat them with respect.
3.Have a set of rules about what you can and will accept. This might seem paradoxial to what I said above, but it isn't. If you explain to your children why you set those rules instead of just being the parental nazi, they will be more likely to follow them. Having rules is important, very important, in that it shows children to realise and know what other people's limits are i.e. they realise as well that you are in fact a real person.
4.Never break their trust. This can be damn difficult, but it is damn important. Don't be too harsh if they break a rule or do something stupid. Show them you're angry or worried (yell if you need to, penalise them in a SMALL way if need be i.e. one week no internet or extra task around the house) but don't leave it at that. Talk to them afterward to show you're still interested. Learn to forgive your kids for breaking rules, and show them that it's ok. We all know how difficult and unforgiving life and society are. They don't need that at home as well, because then there's no difference between home and the wild for them.
The computer my 11 year old daughter uses is connected to the net through a linux box running Squid, set up to log accesses. It also has VNC server on it. She knows that I have a history that she can't erase, and that I can look at her screen at any time from any computer at home or work without her knowing I'm doing it.
OK, this is the sort of stuff that we chafe when our employers do it to us. But I've found that it works well for us.
If you want to know why pornography is evil then just think about it from the point of view of the photographic objects. Imagine that was you, how degraded would you feel if you were the subject of those pictures. What kind of psycological defences would you have to put up just to get up in the morning?
This kind of flawed logic seems to be very common. You would feel degraded by being the subject of pornographic photos, therefore everybody would feel degraded by it, therefore pornography is bad.
The world isn't that simple. There are a lot of people who enjoy or seek out things that others consider degrading or even harmful. What one person finds degrading, another might find entertaining or even arousing. Neither side is wrong until they insist that everybody else must feel the same way.
I'm sure I'll get moderated as flamebait for this, but.... I hardly doubt anyone here has any advice that's either informed or from the perspective you're looking for.
By this I mean two simple things: most slashdot folks are likely 16 through 27 or so (I'd imagine, since they're likely to have the most free time), are extremely liberal (most liberal folks I know are of the "don't discipline your child, it might scar him - until he's a teenager, then start", and "let kids do what they want, they're intelligent" persuasion - which is not to say all are), and are more likely to not have a family than to have one.
All these conditions, in my mind, make any advice gotten here something you might not want to consider.
That being said, this 21 y/o father and husband thinks that if, by the time they're 12 or 13, and they're still lying to you, something was done wrong from the beginning. There's evidently a trust issue. Recalling back to the few years to my adolecense, I'd say that this lack of trust is likely due to the fact that they're alienated by you and/or see you as the enemy.
My experience is that if you're the enemy (and I don't just mean your child is upset with you for a couple days, I'm talking about long-term resentment and/or distrust), then it's most likely that you weren't open enough with them when they were younger, aren't open enough with them now, and communication lines need to be cut and re-laid. Tell them that you trust them. Let them know that they've got someone they can talk to if they need to. Be interested in -them-, and care about the things they do. This means spend time with them if they'll allow it. Develop a report with them more sophisticated than the simple "this is how my day was" kind of conversation. You'll thank yourself later.
As for the actual guidelines that I'd suggest (from a fairly liberal-right kind of guy): back off for now, and develop that relationship. If that doesn't seem to be working, let them know that you don't appreciate it. Check their browser caches and/or history, if you're paranoid and/or want to be restrictive of their behavior: if they're bad, let them know about the harms/dangers of whatever they're doing, don't chastize them or punish them. By the time a kid reaches adolecense, they're likely too independent (depending on the kid) to be disciplined effectively, unless the infraction is quite severe. Dolling out punishments like cheap doctor's office candy just causes hatred towards you - they'll see you as being mean.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
It's one thing to have a contrary opinion of the law, but another entirely to accept it. It doesn't need to be done cheerfully, but it needs to be done both for your sake and your child's sake.
I must be a brick short of a full load. This thread has turned into a sceed fiesta. Where is the scientific evidence that sighting a naked women turns a young boy into a mass murderer, or a pimp, or a dealer? Is there is some basic social knowledge that is mysteriously lacking from my genetic repetoire? Where does this knowledge come from, and why don't I have it?
Maybe this goes right back to genesis. From the time we first discover sex, we feel guilty about it. Then we all rush around as adults to protect our children from becoming the horrible depraved adults our generation has become, and our parents generation, and all the begatters to the beginning of time.
No wait, they have done research on masturbation, the majority of adult males have an urge to clean the pipes the day before being reunited with their lust interest. According to research, it improves semen quality to call up a fresh set of reserves. Who would have ever guessed that sexual reflexes and instincts were associated with reproductive fitness?
I don't children in this society need to be told much about the birds and the bees. Perhaps it would be better to update our schools with a dopamine education class. Here is dopamine: human folly boiled down to molecular dimensions. Vonnegut wrote a novel about a Martian army with transmitters embedded in their minds to control them (Sirens of Titan). That seems like an unnecessary redundancy. We are already under the control of a hostile molecular force. Perhaps there is a better way to educate children that scrubbing internet connections and pretending we have not yet discovered the molecular snake.
I do agree that passive monitoring is the way to go, unless it's necessary to intervene to avoid a clear and present danger. I feel no obligation, however, to "reason" with my children. A parent is an absolute monarch to his or children, with all the responsibilities that come with that. If a parent abdicates that responsibility, his or her children are already lost.
When I was a teenager I was on all the BBSes, downloading Warez and looking at porn. Once the I got internet access newsgroups were always a good spot.
I found all sorts of things, some disgusting that I quickly deleted, other things interesting that I never really wanted to try (like how to build a bomb).
I had almost no parental control. My single mother didn't have a clue about computers (though she did write her yearly christmas letter on Word Perfect! and used the computer to print out labels) Sure the computer was in the livingroom but there were times when I would get home from school and no one was home and she never really read what was on the screen. She certainly didn't know anything about warez and pirating software. Her biggest concern was that I was tying up the phone line.
However, she did spend time with me and taught me right and wrong. She gave me the knowledge and ability to make my own decisions. While I'm sure she wouldn't approve of some things, I think I was better prepared than most when I went away to college. While I brewed beer in the dorms while underage, I didn't get hammered all the time and I've never done drugs. However, leading a sheltered life only causes people to rebel when they get away from their parents for the first time. In college, no one is there to watch over them. The most colleges do is sometime block certain filesharing ports because of lawsuits.
Let them have a little privacy and a little fun now so they don't explode when the get out on their own. But most importantly, spend some time with them and set a good example, it makes more of an impression than you'd think.
Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms.
Well, if you ignored the dire warnings, I'm assuming it's because you trust your kids to be able to handle the privilege according to your guidelines.
Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one [don't lie to us about what you're doing] - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific.
Well without knowing the specifics of how they broke the rule (Were they looking at porn sites? Were they getting frisky in online chat? Were they posting to racist newsgroups?), I can't say for sure what would be the right way to handle it. However, I can think of an easy fix to start with: yank the computers out of their rooms, and put one or two into a public room.
While one could argue that having access to the internet is becoming essential, having private, effectively unmonitored access is still clearly a privilege.
Jay (=
I dissagree with your comments, that children should be taught not to talk to strangers online. I believe that the ability to converse with people they have never met, and most likely will never meet, is one of the most important things your child can be taught.
Thanks to the Internet, your child can make acquaintances with people from a multitude of countries, beliefs, and religions. They can learn about cultures, differences between societies, and problems or struggles people experience in everyday life. And they can do this safely.
There are still people who would rather deny their child communication with "online strangers" than educate their child about doing so responsibly. There are still parents who know so little about the Internet that they will accept the miconception that all "chat rooms" are undeground grooming places for paedophiles. Five minutes of guidance is enough to make your child understand that joining #12yroldz on AOL and repeatedly asking "wanna cyber?" is a bad idea.
The key is making your child *understand* that people hidden behind a chat room can lie. Simple as that. They need to be taught to keep their online acquaintances seperate from the real world. Make them understand that they WILL meet people who will try to harm them. With a little education, the Internet becomes a "virtual sandbox". Your child will be exposed to people - both good and bad, in a controlled and safe enviroment. There is no better way to teach your child about human nature.
I say this from personal experience. I am presently 18. During my 'childhood' I had always enjoyed the freedom of unrestricted online communication. I belive the results from this are only positive. I have learned so much, from so many...
My lifetime passion has always been programming. While in the 'real world', very few of the people around me shared this interest, online I was able to find a haven. I was able to interact with hundreds of thousands of people who not only shared my interests, but were willing to share their knowledge. I learnt to share my knowlede in return. I could collaborate on projects with people I had never met. It didn't matter that I was 12, noone knew or cared. My age was irrelevant. It was an environment in which skin color, gender, age, and nationallity are all irrelevant. A place where knowledge, contribution, and respect are honoured.
This has changed my approach in the real world. In a society where racism and religious discrimination are commonplace, children learn the negative attitudes from their peers. Having made contacts in practically every country, I didn't give in to the temptation to tag along. I actually knew the societies and people which others would criticise for no other reason than "because they're different".
I don't believe that your child will have their mind warped by pornography or bad language on the internet. If you believe they won't be exposed to these two 'evils' at their schools, you have perhaps lost contact with reality. The difference is that in the online world, attacking people with profanities results in rejection from a community, rather than cheap support from immature peers. The "u wanna fuck?" messages are frowned upon - "I'm sorry, I'd rather not sustain a sexual relationship over a 56k modem link".
I learnt, from first-hand experience, that trust takes years to build, and seconds to break. I learned to respect others, not because it was 'forbidden' to be disrespectful, but because mutual respect is what created the greatest acheivements and communities. I learned how to act when in a position of power, how to diminish rather than fuel dissagreements. Online communities, be they forums, IRC channels, or simply e-mail, have one thing in common; they are environments in which decisions aren't made with fists or knives, but via wit, intellect, and understanding. If children weren't sheided from this "for their own protection", they would grow to become better people.
As a parent of an almost 15 yr old who has his own internet connection in his room I say trust 'em.
,hopefully made a difference.
When he was young and we first got on the 'net the computer was in a common room and I occasionally would look and see what the kids were doing on line.
The only rule I had then was NO CHATROOMS. I enforced it and talked about why I felt this was necessary - the kids were 8,8 and 4 at the time.
We talked about internet safety in general and specifically. It worked well.
I never had a net nanny installed or blocked sites - we talked about what was and was not appropriate and that they would lose ALL computer time if they were doing something they knew was wrong. Worked wonders.
He is 15 now and very computer saavy - I trust him to do the right thing - and if he gets in a jam I will help him out - with the understanding that we will discuss it after I come down from the ceiling. We have never had to do that.
As a teen he has friends with whom he wishes to talk without being listened to - he has a right to his privacy. He has the right to be able to do his thing - HOWEVER - if doing his thing involves anything that I consider immoral, or unethical then we have a problem.
We may not always agree on things but he knows he has earned my trust in being online and does not abuse it. He also realizes that things have a way of coming back and biting him in the a## is he messes up.
His younger brother uses the common area computers to go online and is still monitored somewhat closely. Why? Because he is only 10 and is still rather impulsive and trusting. He too is learning the rules for internet negotiation - his older brother is teaching him as well.
Have they ever gone to sites I think are "bad" You betcha - but we talk about them and discuss the situation seriously - and most times I see their point in going there. (this does not include porn)
As to porn - has my teen ager seen it? Probably - am I totally freaked ( well a little) but then again we have discussed how I feel about porn and why and he seems to get it. Will he look at porn again? Probably - but knowing how I (his Mom)feel and thinking in terms of "would you want your sister to do this?? has
One of these days he is going to be on his own - I would hope that he will have the skills he needs to cope in a world that is so different than the one I grew up in.
Letting go is hard but hanging on is harder
Yduz
People don't say, "Only give your kids Internet access in public family areas" because it doesn't work as a monitoring tool. They give this advice because it is the best option.
Every person I know that has put Internet in their kids bedrooms has regretted it. Every person that only allows access in common family areas while the parents are home has been quite happy with the results. The kids don't seem to really mind either.
Pick up any book, talk to any psychologist or law enforcement officer, and they will tell you the same thing.
To ignore this advice is to ignore better, hard won, thinking on the matter.
There is no need for them to have private computers. Just as I wouldn't let them have private TVs, I wouldn't let them have private PCs. We have two computers in public places in the home. Their privacy is respected in that we don't stand over their shoulders, but their monitors are clearly visible to others in the home. The Internet is a wonderful place, but it can also be dangerous. It is my job as a parent to protect them from harm.
This is a thorny issue simply because people have varying moral views. I personally feel pornography in any form is more harmful than most believe and I choose to protect my children from it as much as possible. One way to do that is to control, at least in the home, the chances of them coming across such material.
"Sure son, you can toddle across that busy highway if you want... or use my circular saw... " "Sure honey, you can email and visit that pedofile for a while..."
Anyway, one thing to consider is that not all lessons can be learned by trial and error. Sometimes the consequences are just too severe and you have to learn by other ways...