Slashdot Mirror


'Operation Cyber Sweep' Nets 125 Arrests

unassimilatible writes "Attorney General John Ashcroft said Thursday that law-enforcement agents had arrested 125 suspects in a crackdown on Internet crimes ranging from hacking and software piracy to credit card fraud and selling stolen goods over the Internet, according to Wired. The investigation, begun Oct. 1 and dubbed Operation Cyber Sweep, involved police from Ghana to Southern California and uncovered 125,000 victims who had lost more than $100 million. Seventy indictments to date have led to arrests or convictions of 125 people, with more expected as the probe continues. The cases range from a Virginia woman who sent fake e-mails to America Online customers asking them to update their credit card numbers to a disgruntled Philadelphia Phillies fan who hacked into computers nationwide and launched spam e-mails criticizing the baseball team. 'The information superhighway should be a conduit for communication, information and commerce, not an expressway for crime,' Ashcroft said."

45 of 286 comments (clear)

  1. Ah... by danielrm26 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I guess this is why the guy in Indonesia that wanted to buy some hardware off me with a credit card suddenly stopped replying to my emails. Damn that Ashcroft; the guy wasn't even worried about price.

    --
    dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
  2. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Did they catch the founders of PayPal?

  3. Phew! by MisterFancypants · · Score: 5, Funny
    I feel much safer now!

    This Homeland Security thing is really working!

  4. Isn't this the RIAA's job? by Powercntrl · · Score: 5, Funny

    I was under the impression they were the ones who policed the Internet.

    --

    ---
    DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
  5. Wow, 125! by MrPerfekt · · Score: 2, Informative

    Only 2,254,364 to go for credit card fraud alone...

    When you add the extra 3 million for spamming and the extra... [population of the United States] for copyright infringement, you can see they're off to a good start!

    --
    I just wasted your mod points! HA!
    1. Re:Wow, 125! by acceleriter · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Wrong-o, reindeer. Google the NET (No Electronic Theft Act). If you live in the U.S., you can face felony charges for having made a few copies of Adobe software:
      if the infringer has made, in any 180-day period, ten or more copies of one or more copyrighted works with a total retail value of $2,500, the crime is a felony entailing up to five years imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $250,000 for individuals and $500,000 for organizations.

      And do you know the "Justice" Department will use the full "retail value" that no one actually pays, right?

      --

      CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.

  6. As bad as he is... by Kilka · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know he's one of the worst people in high places, but I think this is a good thing. He's not invading peoples privacy or instituting some terrible law, he's actually helping people.

    -Kilka

    --
    If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. -Chomsky
    1. Re:As bad as he is... by orthogonal · · Score: 2, Informative

      [Ashcroft]'s not invading peoples privacy or instituting some terrible law, he's actually helping people.

      And notice how surprising that is.

    2. Re:As bad as he is... by El+Cubano · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know he's one of the worst people in high places, but I think this is a good thing. He's not invading peoples privacy or instituting some terrible law, he's actually helping people.

      I agree. Even better: if they can publicly show that these people's rights were actually preserved, I would be very impressed.

    3. Re:As bad as he is... by EverDense · · Score: 2, Funny

      I know he's one of the worst people in high places, but I think this is a good thing. He's not invading peoples privacy or instituting some terrible law, he's actually helping people.

      You left out a word there. Here, I'll fix it for you:

      I know he's one of the worst people in high places, but I think this is a good thing.
      WHEN He's not invading peoples privacy or instituting some terrible law, he's actually helping people.

      --
      http://jesus.everdense.com/
    4. Re:As bad as he is... by cgranade · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even better: if they can publicly show that these people's rights were actually preserved, I would be very impressed.
      Problem is, that's proving the negative, a difficult task, if not impossible. Also, given Ashcroft's record, you'll excuse me holding out a healthly, if large, amount of distrust toward any action of his. If these actions wind up being good, then so be it. In the meantime, I will expect the worst and hope for the best.

      --

      #define DRM chmod 000

    5. Re:As bad as he is... by zurab · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I know he's one of the worst people in high places, but I think this is a good thing. He's not invading peoples privacy or instituting some terrible law, he's actually helping people.


      Nonsense. He is selectively enforcing the laws on behalf of the corporations that paid for those laws. I am still waiting for a day when they launch an investigation in SCO's practices and book them for criminal copyright infringement. When do you think that is going to happen?

      When regular people violate corporation's copyright they are on it in no time. When corporations violate hundreds, if not thousands, of people's copyrights and sell it for profit, where is the "justice" department?
  7. Ashcroft rocks. by Guano_Jim · · Score: 5, Funny

    I, for one, welcome our new Pentacostal overlords, and would like to remind them as a barely-known Slashdot personality, might be useful in rounding up others to work in their underground Bible camps.

  8. Software Piracy by LPetrazickis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Are we talking about real software pirates (ones that actually sell their illgotten goods on the street and prevent legimate profits) or pimply-faced teenagers proud of having two hundred copies of Photoshop on their hard drive? IMHO, saying that actual money was lost in the latter case is absurd.

    --
    Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
  9. #include (standardslashdotresponse.h) by Chairboy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dear slashdot,

    I for one am outraged about (subject matter)! This is just another instance of (the government/corporation name) sticking it to those of us who still care about (music/freedom/software)!

    In conclusion, stop (subject matter) now!

    Regards,
    Chairboy

    PS, does (subject matter) (run on linux/support OGG Vorbis)? Because if it doesn't, I'm (not buying it/further upset)!

  10. Re:"an expressway for crime" by orthogonal · · Score: 5, Funny

    Thanks to Asscroft, most citizens can be accused of commiting crimes ["terrorism"] at any arbitary point in time.

    Now that's just unfair. John Ashcroft's a great Christian Attorney General.

    And 'Operation Cyber Thought Crime Sweep' doesn't start until next week, you commie pinko medical-marijuana-using atheist Muslim non-Allegiance-pledging bong-selling Democrat terrorist.

  11. Re:People really still fall for 911 scams? (519) by ericspinder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I belive that they are called 519 scams. Good it is about time that these spammers are getting their due. It has always befuddled me that they could get away with what is clearly fraud. Perhaps the J-dept is finally getting their act together on the Internet. Of course knowning Ashcroft his next target will be porn, but at least that guy is swinging the bat in the right direction for now.

    --
    The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
  12. Finally !! by Tensor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I took them this long to shift from copyrights violators to actual, real theft.

    Kudos ! Its nice to see them focusing on "real" crime with "real" victims, with tangible losses for a change.

  13. Actually it's called... by macdaddy · · Score: 3, Informative
    a 419 Scam, Nigerian Money Scam, or an Advance Fee Fraud Scam. This US Secret Service page spells it out nicely.

    911 only came into the picture after 9/11/01 when the scam morphed to use US soldiers in a foreign land in a post-911 conflict instead of a Nigerian Doctor or governmental official.

  14. Subject category by momerath2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm glad the editors didn't classify this story as "Your Rights Online" and turn it into another anti-Ashcroft-fest. To stay on topic, identity thieves and the like are the right people to go after. Maybe the salaries for the RIAA's lawyers should go to fighting crime like that.

    --
    I had but a simple dream, to destroy all humans.
  15. The power of money by jdifool · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Hi,

    let's make some maths together.
    • There have been roughly 125 000 people scammed by the 125 arrested scammers. If we just stick to the hypothesis that the average scam lasts for one year (if anyone has more information about that, welcome), it makes a difference of 47 000 (125 000 - 4*3*58000) between the scammed people and the number of complaints.
    • Given that the overall loss is estimated to 100 million US, and making a real nice average calculation, we can just imagine that 37,6 million (47 000/125 000*100 million) dollars have not been claimed.
    Where will that money go ?

    Regards,
    jdif
    --
    Let's overcome our weakness.
  16. Thank You Ashcroft! by Pavan_Gupta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not an Ashcroft fan, but this situation has allowed me to grow a slight bit less angry with this tyrant -- and for good reason. See, the Internet is much like the "wild west" with vigilantes trying to police the deserts (spam prevention organizations, SpyBot Search and Destroy, security groups, etc), but the problem is, our once epic vigilante is dwarfed by a simple DDoS in the virtual world of the internet. The real world is where the problem stems from, and it's a waste of time to stop attacks launched from "the real world" on the internet. It's about time our government stepped up and put a stop to aggregious crimes happening on the internet.

    I see this as a first step in the right direction. People need to learn to stop rampant abuse of an amazing tool. Ashcroft should stamp on illegal filesharers too. It's about time people started playing the game of life legally again. Come on now, leave the blackmarket for IRC.

    1. Re:Thank You Ashcroft! by 1lus10n · · Score: 3, Insightful

      YEAH ! because crime in the real world doesnt exist or cause anyone problems.

      We cant keep our troops from getting killed, we cant stop people from ramming planes into buildings and we cant stop CHILDREN from doing drugs, shooting each other, and "sharing" copyrighted materials. yet somehow arresting far less than 1% of the "cyber" criminals out there is somehow a great thing. right. somehow i fail to be amazed.

      why dont we take the money they spent on this nice government action and put it to some good use, like education.

      The government (any)cannot and should not police the internet since the internet is NOT owned by the government.

      i personally think an international organization seperate from real world government should be created from elected (prefferably knowledgeable, unlike the people currently trying to ruin/run the internet) people who then govern cyber space. using a universal set of laws to prosecute people. its the only way this will be fair to all 6 billion people on this planet.

      --
      "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
    2. Re:Thank You Ashcroft! by SiliBelgian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The government (any) cannot and should not police the internet since the internet is NOT owned by the government.

      Wrong.
      If the Internet is used by a criminal to steal from people by means of credit card fraud, the government can and should prosecute that criminal. Criminals have to be punished, no matter what channel of communication or infrastructure is used in the crime. How would you react to credit card fraud if it happened to you? "Damned, I got robbed. But hey, it happened over the Internet and the Internet is free, so I can't and won't do anything about it." ? I think not.

      The government should try to find a subtle balance, punishing real cyber crimes that harm honest internet-user, while still respecting civil rights like privacy and free speech.

      We cant keep our troops from getting killed, we cant stop people from ramming planes into buildings and we cant stop CHILDREN from doing drugs, shooting each other, and "sharing" copyrighted materials. yet somehow arresting far less than 1% of the "cyber" criminals out there is somehow a great thing.

      Wrong again.
      You simply can't solve society's problems by focusing on them one by one, starting with the great ones. You could begin by establishing world peace and putting all your resources in that, but then the people being robbed on the street would feel abandoned by the government, not doing anything about petty crime. (Wait, isn't that happening already?) The only way to deal with problems is when they arise, and, as impractical as it may sound, all at once. And cyber crime is a real problem.

      why dont we take the money they spent on this nice government action and put it to some good use, like education.

      Excellent plan. Allow me to make small adaptation:
      Why don't we take the money they spend on the military and put it to some good use, like education?
      The Pentagon is the only institution in the US that gets more than 1 billion dollars a year. On top of that, it is also the only institution that doesn't have to open the books for auditing. They spend the money, no questions asked...

      --


      "Hell hath no fury like a hippo with a machine gun."
  17. Nice link... by jdifool · · Score: 5, Informative

    if you want to get into the details(pdf file)

    Regards,
    jdif

    --
    Let's overcome our weakness.
  18. We still need to know more... by Trillian_1138 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How were they tracked down? Was it with previously available tools, or were formerly impossible acts made possible under the PATRIOT act? Good old detective sluething, or warrant-less email tracking? How will they be charged? With charges that fit the crime, ot as cyber-terrorists? Because while hacking computers is a real concern, sending out annoying messages about baseball shouldn't be at the top of Ashcroft's list.

    I'm not accusing Ashcroft of anything. Yet. But I am VERY VERY suspicious of anything that he touches, or anything fro his department. This is hopefully a step in the right direction. People who con others out of their credit cards or hijacks other computers should be prosecuted. But I think the public needs to closely examine what exactly is going on behind the scenes.

    -Trillian

  19. Ashcroft is not all bad by soft_guy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I lived in Missouri I once had a problem with being slammed by various telephone companies (mostly from Texas.)

    Slamming is where they change your long distance service from your preferred service to a different one (usually one that charges a very high rate) without your permission.

    I didn't know what to do about it and Southwestern Bell's answer was that I should just pay my bill and shut up. So, I called John Ashcroft's office because he was one of my US Senators. Someone at his office made a call to SW Bell on my behalf and voila my problem was solved.

    In this case, he has captured people who were actually out comitting crimes against people. These crimes had victims and real consequences. I, for one, applaud this news.

    Tomorrow I can go back to fuming about the patriot act. Today, I say "Thank you very much Attorney General Ashcroft for getting some criminals off the internet!"

    --
    Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    1. Re:Ashcroft is not all bad by applemasker · · Score: 4, Funny

      Let's not forget that this guy lost an election to someone who had died before we nominate him for any humanitarian awards.

      --
      Bush Lies On the Record.
    2. Re:Ashcroft is not all bad by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I have a similar story. When I was in the Navy, I bought some stuff from the Navy Exchange on their "home layaway plan" (basically, a credit line). After I'd been out of the service for a few years, I received a letter that I still owed like $700 for some furniture. They gave me a 1-800 number to call back on, so I gathered my cancelled checks (yeah, I keep all of 'em) and my discharge papers that showed where the Exchange had signed off that I owed them no money.

      They never answered the phone through about 20-30 calls.

      About a month later, I got a certified letter that they would be garnishing my income tax returns to pay back the debt, and gave me another 1-800 number. Same deal: noone would answer the phone.

      In a panic, I photocopied everything and sent it, along with an explanatory letter, to then-Senator Ashcroft.

      Within two weeks I received a personal call at home from a Navy Read Admiral in charge of the Navy Exchange, apologizing profusely for any inconvenience I might've suffered. I also received a certified letter stating that my debt was paid in full before I was discharged and that I had fulfilled my contract in good standing.

      I know that a lot of Slashdotters don't like Mr. Ashcroft, but personally, I'll never forget that a letter to his office resulted in a Navy Admiral kissing my butt and begging for forgiveness. What can I say - I like the guy.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  20. Info on the Phillies "Fan"... by dameron · · Score: 3, Interesting
    "Mikkke Schmidt", as he called himself, has plagued alt.sport.baseball.phila-phillies for some years now. Have a read and imagine the FBI busting your favorite troll...

    Some samples of his "work".

    The charges.

    Apparently he's not the sharpest spoon in the drawer as he not only "email bombed" the Phillies management with rants such as this one, but also, obviously, posted the exact material to Usenet.

    Read some, there's some quality trollin' ('though not as refined as the infamous "cordial boy" or King Tut).

    -dameron

  21. Names by Kohath · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What are the names of the citizens who were accused by Ashcroft of terrorism and later turned out to be innocent?

    Not trolling, not rhetorical. I actually really want to know if there are any.

    1. Re:Names by fenix+down · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They've let a whole pile out of Gitmo since they started that thing up. Some of them are just getting sent to Saudi Arabia or wherever to get their nuts set on fire, but most of them were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course, none of them have ever been accused of terrorism, the only accusation anybody at Gitmo specifically gets is "you're the worst of the worst". The 13 year olds and the 15 year old Canadian they sent along for buttsex are still in there though, so don't worry.

      And then there was this one. And of course, although Ashcroft wasn't in charge yet back then, I doubt he'd be more rational than the last guy.

  22. Re:Dude by danielrm26 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Why are you talking shit about Indonesian people? "

    Easy there, killer. I wasn't talking shit about anyone. This is for real, and the guy told *me* he was in Indonesia. I just happened to find the news ironic after being told by numerous people (who do online retaling with ebay and such) that I should be very careful about Indonesia in particular because there is a lot of credit card fraud coming from there.

    This is not somthing I came up with; I just found the shit out for myself today.

    --
    dmiessler.com -- grep understanding knowledge
  23. My experience of online crime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I run a small web site that has unfortunately attracted the attention of a persistent credit card fraudster. He seems to be a kid who thinks he's anonymous but I know enough about him for any police officer to find him in minutes. I warned him that I would report him to the police if he didn't stop what he was doing but he continued so I had no option but to file a police report. (It would have been illegal for me not to report him.)

    After all of the formalities had taken place I spoke to the officer who would be handling the case and I asked how long it would take to process because all the time I was losing money to some stupid kid. The officer was very understanding and sympathetic but this was roughly his reply:

    "I've got a pile of reports on drugs offences. They generally take a year to process. This report will go on the bottom of that pile."

    It seems to me that the reality of crime on the Internet, with the possible exception of child abuse/pornography, is that most criminals will either get away with it entirely or they'll have months, maybe years, to rip-off as many people as they want, before the law eventually catches up with them and delivers a light slap on the wrist.

    ps. Wouldn't it be great if you order something over the Internet, legitimately, using your own credit card, receive the product or service but never pay a single penny? Well you can, it's easy, every online retailer knows how it's done and credit card companies have no interest in preventing it. Ask any retailer who is to blame for credit card fraud and the answer will be the same: Credit card companies. I'm not an expert on the subject but I feel confident in saying that with a change of policy from credit card issuers, upwards of 90% of online card fraud could be stopped over-night. I also feel confident in saying that this change of policy will not happen.

  24. Long sentences confuse me by mcd7756 · · Score: 4, Funny

    "...a Virginia woman who sent fake e-mails to America Online customers asking them to update their credit card numbers to a disgruntled Philadelphia Phillies fan..."

    I'm not a baseball fan. Was it supposed to make him feel better about their season?

    --
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them? --Abraham Lincoln
  25. Normal hubris - as insubstantial as can be by tagishsimon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Given that the indictment was laid against the Philly spammer before the supposed start date of the supposed operation...

    http://www.cybercrime.gov/carlsonArrest.htm ... I'd venture to say that the probability is that operation cyber sweep is little more than a PR exercise to link together various extant cases to make it look as though serious co-ordinated action is taking place.

  26. Refunds anyone? by SiliBelgian · · Score: 2, Funny

    Authorities in Ghana and Nigeria also helped track down suspects and recover millions of dollars in ill-gotten gains.

    Slightly offtopic here, but will those funds be repayed to the fools who were stupid enough to fall for the scam?
    Or will they just spend it on military equipment, as seems to happen with all excess money ?

    Just curious.

    --


    "Hell hath no fury like a hippo with a machine gun."
  27. Good to see.. by Large+Green+Mallard · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Good to see that finally they're stopping hiding behind the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.. I mean, arrested and convicted.. same thing, let's lump them in together, right? :)

    "Seventy indictments to date have led to arrests or convictions of 125 people"

  28. Operation what? by vistic · · Score: 2, Funny

    Commence Operation.... Vacu-suck!

  29. Hook, this is line, Sinker, Line this is hook. by SubtleNuance · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Attorney General John Ashcroft said Thursday that law-enforcement agents had arrested 125 suspects in a crackdown on Internet crimes ranging from hacking and software piracy to credit card fraud and selling stolen goods over the Internet, according to Wired. The investigation, begun Oct. 1 and dubbed Operation Cyber Sweep, involved police from Ghana to Southern California and uncovered 125,000 victims who had lost more than $100 million.

    So, is this worthwhile effort? Who else smells the propaganda? How much does a bs operation like this cost these governments?

    Instead of pursuing violent street criminals or corporate whores who bankrupt whole billion-dollar companies with lies and theft leaving tens-of-thousands of pensioners and unemployed?

    Instead John Ascroft spends his time constructing a ruse to set up as chimera for the Coprorate Media to parrot in order to scare the population straight -- wouldnt want lawlessness would we?

    So, what does it cost to construct this kind of psy-op on the American public? Is the media aware before the event? How much is spent on post-'operation' press, PR, Cops /FBI/insvestigators/staff during the operation, flights/calls/meetings for higher-ups to organize the event, press-invitations, etc etc etc vs. the actual amount of $ stolen? How much fear and ominous sounding threats against the free-intellect of the public will the American public endour before they tell these plutocratic whores to re-adjust their priorities?

    What is more important or what should government's attention/resources be spent? Helping an elderly women on a declining social-insurance in a cold tenament -- or -- making sure the Visa Board of Directors keeps profit up in order that they may share $500Million salary between 12 people?

    1. Re:Hook, this is line, Sinker, Line this is hook. by Artifakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is something that can be criticised either way. If the AG goes after a bunch of petty criminals, and it costs more to prosecute them than the average take, its a publicity stunt. If his office focuses on crimes with high enough consequences to be cost effective, well that $150,000 per count for copyright violation makes that one of the laws worth enforcing. As long as some rather trivial offenses have such big penalties, challenging these actions on cost effectiveness grounds is not even approximately challenging them on ethical grounds. If you let "them" turn it into an economic arguement, the system is rigged against you. It can give you what you said you wanted and still not prosecute violent crime, big corporate fraud, or people who don't maintain their furnaces when they rent to little old ladies.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  30. TIPS FOR ARGUING FOREVERYONE by proj_2501 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    OK, there, bucko.

    (2) Learn to format your postings, please.
    (3) Learn to spell.
    (5) Don't assume that anyone who complains didn't vote.I voted. I complain.
    (7) The Patriot Act was rushed through Congress at a time when any deviation from the President probably would have resulted in a ridiculous political backlash.
    (11) Don't assume that anyone who complains is ignorant. It makes you look pompous, not intelligent.
    (13) Lists are more fun if they're not based on the counting numbers!

  31. Peanuts Compaired to Wall StreetWhite Collar Crime by berwyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Open up to the financial pages of any newspaper this week and start adding up the financial scams from some of the most respected financial institutions in America. Add that to the Enron and all the other incidents that were suppose to reform the business world.

  32. Re:"... worst people in high places"? Hardly. by TGK · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Uhhhh.... this is an example of assuming causality. Because there have been very few terrorist attacks in the United States since Sept 11, 2001 the Bush administration must be doing a good job combating terrorism.

    This assumes a few things.

    1 - Legions of bloodthirsty terrorists wish nothing more than to see the United States reduced to a smoking abrasion in the earth's crust.

    2 - These people have decided that the best time to act on these urges would be right now, while the Bush Administration is hunting for them.

    3 - These terrorists are being found, tried, and convicted in secret military courts while the president's approval ratings sink ever lower as the US population grows more and more convinced that the world isn't nearly as dangerous as Mr Ashcroft would have us think.

    It also has, implicit in it, at least one conclusion that those that advance it probably won't like.

    1 - Three acts of terrorism have occurred in the United States since Pres. Bush took power. (9-11, Anthrax, Sniper). Thus Bush averages 1 attack per year (3 years in office, 3 attacks). Clinton, in comparison averages 1 every 4 years (World Trade Center Bombing and Oklahoma City). By the parent post's logic Clinton did a better job of protecting against terrorism.

    But let's not get into that particular quagmire. The real question is this. At what cost? Terrorism isn't the leading cause of death in this country. More people die from pretty much everything than die in terrorist attacks. Want to protect the US Citizenry? Sink that $87 Billion for Iraq into Cancer research.

    Ok... lets go with Cancer though. Apparently this country is unwilling to use the stem cells from a fetus that was aborted to try to cure cancer. I can accept a religious problem with that.

    So here's the (hypothetical) trade. A cure for cancer, today. The price: The government gets to tap your phone, confiscate property without due process, track your internet usage, spy on you without judicial oversight, conduct secret searches of your home, and check up on your library readings. Oh, they also get to use your car to spy on you and can detain you indefinitely in a military base with no hope of appeal or civilian trial. Is it worth it? Remember, we're talking about curing cancer here... one of the biggest killers of US citizens of any age.

    Gut feeling, if you're not willing to give up the rights of a bunch of dead tissue that someone didn't want to carry to birth to cure this disease you're probably not willing to give us a bunch of your own personal rights to do the same. So why is it that what Ashcroft is doing is so great? Why is it that for the POSSIBILITY of preventing terrorism we're willing to let this man and his minions trample upon our civil liberties?

    I don't have an easy answer for this question. I can tell you that people with the attitude expressed in the parent post are part of the problem, not the solution. Ben Franklin was right, "those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither."

    Cripple terrorism? Plunk pool chlorine tablets into a two liter of coke and twist on the cap and you've got a chemical munition. Nothing Ashcroft does can prevent a desperate individual willing to die for his cause. We're throwing our freedoms away for the tattered remnants of a dream.

    --
    Killfile(TGK)
    No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
  33. Re:"... worst people in high places"? Hardly. by crucini · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Even though I really don't care about Ashcroft or his critics, this annoyed me enough to reply. You point out correctly that terrorism is a vanishingly small problem. Then you drag out the tired cliche of Ashcroft "trampling on our civil liberties." Any such trampling is also vanishingly small. Want to see serious trampling? The war on drugs. That has had vastly more impact on people's lives than the current terrorism panic.

    Nothing Ashcroft does can prevent a desperate individual willing to die for his cause.

    Except imprisoning or deporting that individual before he can act. But I think your logic could be applied to all law enforcement efforts, ending in the conclusion that no laws should be enforced.

    The saddest thing is that so many otherwise intelligent people are hypnotized by the Republican-Democrat pingpong, and try to politicize even mundane governmental functions like catching crooks. Ashcroft is a bogey man to the left, yet I doubt that he is doing his job any differently from any other Attorney General. In fact, I doubt that the AG has much impact on Justice - he's just a short-term figurehead who represents career civil servants to the public.