Slashdot Mirror
Implanted RFID Tag To Replace Cash?
Kulic writes "Wired is running a story about using subdermal RFID microchips to pay for goods. Applied Digital Solutions are marketing the VeriChip as the world's only implantable ID technology. CEO Scott Silverman says they could someday replace credit cards, but a final product is a few years away. They are also receiving condemnation from some fundamentalist Christians who believe that this is the fabled 'mark of the beast' of biblical lore." waytoomuchcoffee adds a link to a similar story at CNet.
You can flip people off and then say, "No, I wasn't giving you the bird, I was buying a Coke."
It does certainly bear similarities to said mark... I seem to recall that one had to had the mark to be able to buy goods.
Anyway, whether it's the mark of the beast or not, I'm not going to put such a chip on my body.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Gut reaction here says that someone, somewhere, would setup some means of remotely reading an RFID tag, hacking whatever PW/encryption is on it, and draining bank accounts. I could see it for small transactions, tolls, fast food, gas, etc. but would be leary about this sort of thing for all financial transactions.
It'll not happen in the US. Waaaaaaaay too many fundamentalist Christians about. I agree with them on this one, not because it's the mark of the beast, but because I don't like the idea of something in my body being money. I still like the cred' stick idea from Shardowrun. Anonymous, secure and very convenient. Near impossible to counterfeit and no money to print.
These devices used to be so big even goatse had trouble implanting one!
liqbase
Quiet down, Unit 432101.
I hope I don't go over my credit limit again, I don't want the bayliffs coming around and cutting ou t my credit tag.
;-( Maybe I can get a gold/platinum mark on my forehead????
And anther thing, how will will I show off my gold chip? Bye bye prestige
But seriously, who is going to want a microchip embedded in their body just for paying for stuff. Apart from the odd wierdo, most people get completely creeped out by this kind of thing. There will not be a market for this, and unless some sinister government thinks for soome reason that it's worth forcing its citizens to use this technology it's just not going to happen, because nobody will use it voluntarily. I'm sure there are serious uses for this kind of technology, but payment systems just aren't one of them.
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
I don't know about any "Mark of the Beast" but having a chip that anyone can track, that I can't just set down? Um, yeah. Uncomfortable with that. I think my personal habits are well enough documented by shadowy figures I am unaware of already, thankyouverymuch.
(Yes, Disney, Best Buy, etc. count as shadowy. Don't you agree?)
Mahnamahna!
...done that.
Lenina Huxley: That is correct, money is out-moded. All transactions are through code.
John Spartan: Alright, so he can't buy food or a place to stay for the night. And, it would be a waste of time to mug somebody. Unless he rips off somebody's hand, and let's hope he doesn't figure that one out.
~Philly
16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18: Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Now why on earth would we worry. Strange that the text actually says in the hand or forehead, not on. I wish I could read the originals as they were written...
... That'd bring a whole new meaning to "paying an arm and a leg" for something.
Can you imagine being robbed?!!!!
This elimiates the anonymous purchase. No more slinking into the adult bookstore for that copy of "Wendy the Whip" Quarterly (or whatever) that is purchased with cash so it doesn't show up on your bank statement for your wife to see.
.
Seriously though, if you have absolute access to how someone spends their money, you essentially know everything about them. It becomes an extreme invasion of privacy making the technological hurdles somewhat minor in comparison to the social and political hurdles.
.
Regarding the mark of the beast; given that this is an implantable device, I can't help but find it interesting that the "number of the beast" is also the Unix mode number for universal device access. Don't know if that means anything, but it is an interesting coincidence.
.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
I think that any biometric or RFID authentication technology should be combined with a PIN. It's just common sense to combine a secuity token that you posses with a PIN that you must memorize. This doesn't lead to perfect security, but it wraps the physical posession of an authentication token in another layer of security.
The best argument that I can see for requiring a PIN is the ability to assign a "duress PIN" to users. A duress pin enables the security token holder to signal their distress when they are being forced to use their PIN under duress. For example, if someone held up at gunpoint and forced to use an ATM, they can enter the duress PIN. Use of the duress pin would signal the bank to notify the authorities that a robbery is in progress at a particular location. In a computer security environment, a duress PIN could be used to provide access to a honeypot network instead of the production network.
Just another example of people who think that just because something is technically possible and perhaps even practical in some cases, that is somehow automatically considered desireable.
Most people don't want this. Not now, probably not ever.
Credit cards have been around a long time too.. now wouldn't it be practical not to have to lug that heavy card around?
Why not have credit card numbers tattooed onto the card holder? That's been technically possible for a long time, and it could also be practical in some cases.
Would anyone suggest this? Why not? Same reasons.
Why do fundamentalist Christians have a problem with this? Every time one of the prophetic things come to pass, they're like, "my god, the number of the beast! Satan is among us! You cannot do this!!"
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Know Your Religion! Guess what guys? The New World Order and the anti-christ's coming are a bloody prerequisite for your savior's return. Remember that bible thing?
You guys should be cheering this stuff on.
trustedworlds.net - gaming, security, and the gunk that lives in between
Right now, if a mugger wants my wallet he can just take it instead of having to carve it out of my body.
It's the same as unremovable transmitter bands for children -- ie a horrible idea. If you're dealing with someone who is willing to kill or maim you to get money, the last thing you want to do is give them a reason to have to do it.
This is common sense.
The enemies of Democracy are
I could rant about how stupid these things are, about all the security holes in the system, about all of the abuses, about the violation of rights, and on and on and on. Instead I'd just like to say that if it does somehow get rammed down our throats then I want chip number 666! Thankyou.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
I'm a Christian, and I say bring it on! A Christian shouldn't have anything to fear! Any "body mark" that could be a *requirement* for global commerce just means that the Bible's predictions are right and the Christian can rejoice that the end is near. Yay!
Again, why should I be afraid???
Just to be clear though, I'm not saying *I'm* going to *sign-up* for one.
More specifically, stop treating us like ATM machines for coporations. What if I don't want to or like to spend money? What if I don't want to give my time (going to work), my dignity (begging for loans), my privacy (everywhere!) and now my very body to make if more convienient for companies to grab my cash.
This proposal is like someone who asks to fuck you before they've bought you flowers or even kissed you. At least have the decensy to lie to us that it's real purpose is "medical information" or "education" before swooping down on our wallets.
TW
What encryption? RFID as it stands has no challenge-response, it's just a static barcode readable by radio interference. When my number is stolen, do I get a new government-sponsored surgery to change numbers?
[
So now instead of handing a bloke with a gun my wallet I will have to hand in my hand to be cut off. No, thanks. Not smoking that one.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Treating people as humans is exactly the reason why people shouldn't be given names but unique numbers.
There must be lots of people with the name 'jack' or 'leo' or whatever. there will be only ONE person called HUMAN_ID_0532134159123843892341 , that's a name that makes you totally unique.
ATM cards require confirmation in order to protect the contents of your bank account from someone who may have stolen or cloned your card. Credit Cards require a signature to ensure accountability and traceability. What do RFID tags do that makes them fundamentally secure?
Nothing, apparently. Not having to type in numbers or sign a receipt are touted as the advantages of the new system. Yet traditional cards could have easily forgone the secondary identification, simply by sacrificing the security we have come to expect.
By the proliferation of universal garage remotes out there, and RFID's lack of a challenge-response system, it's obvious that if you will be able to get within 3 feet of someone you can steal their identity without their knowledge. Without the secondary identification, the system is useless. With secondary identification, it's a credit card.
Furthermore, why implant? Everyone has to have their keys with them at all time... The speedpass route seems like the more intelligent and flexible way to go. Implanting could be convenient once all of the bugs are hammered out and it is accepted as a universal form of payment, but for a 1st generation technology likely to be upgraded quickly, why commit?
This reminds me a lot of the Dot Com days, when people attempted to sell anything that was possible, without even bothering to think if it should be done.
The ______ Agenda
If it said that rape was ok in the bible it would most likely be socially acceptable at this point, as most of our societal rules have some roots in organized religion.
Viral software licensing is not freedom, it is in fact GNU/Socialism.
And I doubt Herr PolitzenFueher Ashcroft will have any chips planted in his body that the the Fatherland Security Department will find trackable. Nor his financial or demographic records. The Fatherland Security Act deems dissemination of such information, such as addresses or social security numbers of the Reich leaders as de facto terrorism with all the throw-your-ass-in-a-torture-chamber non-prison laws applying.
I'm not exagerating. Remember about a month ago when some people started skywriting personal information about (Ashcroft?)to prove a point about privacy? They couldn't give a whole number because that would have violated the Fatherland Security Act and they would have been yanked from public life for thirty years.
This is not funny.
>>For example devout Christians hate murder,
:)) and may be more likely to believe the stereotype.
> but didn't have much to say about Hitler did they?
> >and devout Christians hate rape.
>wow, such high principles. doesn't apply to not getting 14 year olds pregnant with the "son of God" though...
You forgot about the
UDAP.
Uniform Distribution of Assholes Principle: Assholes are distributed uniformly throughout the population.
Therefore, given a large enough group, that group will have some assholes. Assholes are generally louder and more obnoxious and try to troll people who aren't part of the group, so you notice them more when you're not in the group. Most fundamentalist Christians are perfectly ok. There are some assholes, simply because there are lots of fundamentalist Christians.
Not understanding the UDAP is the reason why so many people attacked Islam and Muslims in the US after Sept 11. They think that because some Muslims are assholes, all Muslims are assholes. When in reality, it's just that some of the Muslim assholes are now coming after the western world instead of causing trouble at home. It would be like saying that all Americans are evil if people like Timothy McVeigh had gone overseas to attack other countries as private citizens.
The UDAP can also be generalized to the UDFP: Uniform Distribution of Flaws Principle, which states that flaws in the human character are uniformly distributed throughout the population. Therefore, stereotyping works because given the statement "All (Group) are (Flaw)." There will be a member of group Group that has flaw Flaw, and in fact the listener may have observed this on one occasion (since flaws are pretty common.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
First we must ask ourselves why people are even considering such technology? Is it convenience? Is it something else? The proponents of this technology tout things like security and convenience. The security is for those who want power - they want a way to know where the people who can threaten them are. I'm not talking about with weapons, either - I'm talking about with power, with ability. They attempt to get more mechanisms of control into society oh so subtly by making it "convenient" to do things. Think about this though - is it really faster to pay by credit card like the commercials say? They always say you need ID for checks, but I would hope to goodness they check ID with credit cards as well! So personally I think the convenience and security aspect is a farce.
The most secure financial situation, oddly enough, is a physical one - where there is actually hard currency. The reason? You actually have to posess the currency to use it. It's a whole lot more difficult to rob a safe than it is to tell a computer to move some numbers around (part of this difficulty is psychological - the rest is physical. You actually have to go somewhere and transport the currency. You have to get it, have something in which to carry it, and you have to get it to where you want it. Vastly different than computer crime - sit in a remote location, no immediate threats...you see what I'm saying, right?). Sure, with cash, you might get mugged. And if you're obscenely wealthy, you need a good place to store your cash. I think the financial gurus overlook the fact that posession is the most enforcable type of security (assuming, of course, you have a big enough stick to fend off any would-be theives).
I think the concept of sticking something unnatural in my body just to participate in commerce is fundamentally wrong, independent of my religious beliefs. Rather than just complain about this, here are some reasons:
It is segregatory: it automatically divides a population into the "priviledged" and "non-priviledge", the group who "works in the system" and those who "go against it", etc. etc. It's not like humanity needs any more reasons to focus on differences between people.
It is a "rite of passage". It may be arguable that "commerce" is an inherent right of people - if you're born, you have the ability to contribute to society and probably will get the resources and toys you want in exchange for that ability. Requiring some "entry" into this arrangement (either chip, or other form of ID) can only serve to cause more social rifts. Think about the present taboo of "illegitimate children" and how this will be exacerbated by "hey you don't have an ID chip! Why not!?!"
It objectifies people. One major problem I see today is that people forget that relationships are more important than things. The general population today is more and more selfish (I've mentioned this before) - look at all the "it's not my fault, it's theirs!" lawsuits. Look at how everyone is basically saying "let me do my thing how I want - but I'm going to tell you you can't do things how you want". When people are simply consumers and potential threats and all that jazz, we take something away from humanity.
I guess to summarize, and before I get much more too wordy with this, it seems that this is another example of being able to do something and not considering if it should be done. There are far more implications than mere ones of faith, though those may not be least important.
Somehow I feel as if all my deliberations on this have been random thinking, and I almost h
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
I think people should stop personalizing this to John Ashcroft. It's not just him, or this administration. It's our entire corrupt government. Get rid of Ashcroft and they replace him with an idealogical clone. Elect a Democrat president and they replace him with an Democrat idealogical clone.
As long as we continue to allow our government to swill from the keg-o-power, it will continue to encroach on freedom and maintain a life of its own. This is historically axiomatic. America will eventually become tyranical if the people don't act to stop it before they loose that power completly.
It's no accident (though perhaps coincidence) that someone is developing a way to use RFIDs for commerce. It is money that is the source of all governmental power. When someone takes your money and gives nothing, they are taking away the time you spent earning it. Money is very much more important than people seem to understand, and in a society that is wealthy enough that even the poorest often have enough to buy luxuries, few seem to understand that taking it from you is not diferent than going into your pantry and taking the food from your shelves, or taking the tools from your shed, workbench, or desk.
I'm not trying to be a karma whore here, but wouldn't it be a fairly silly idea to try to rob a place where self defense and hand/foot to head combat is taught?
To me that sounds like trying to break into a prison.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
Haven't you heard? Taking money from us isn't a *privilege* the corporations have, it's a *right.* Supporting them with your money isn't your choice, it's your duty. If you don't like it, too bad. They have enough resources to buy whatever legislation it takes to get you to comply.
This proposal is like someone who asks to fuck you before they've bought you flowers or even kissed you.
No it isn't. When someone asks for a quickie, you can say no. You don't have an option here. You're a consumer, not a citizen. You're a source of revenue, not a human being. So bend over already! And don't forget to buy some flowers this time.
Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
I even recall a well-known senator once saying, in stark contrast to your own post, "I am... A MACHINE."
I thought that was the governor of California....
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
I can't wait to go wardriving for people's personal account info. Fun! Also, I can't wait for the future where when I get robbed, instead of just losing petty cash, I lose my entire account and I get my hand chopped off too. Even more fun.
But seriously though, why don't we all just have credit card size cards that require a pin to use, and instead of giving out an account number to sellers. It gives out a RSA signed transaction using the card's private key, and public x509 cert (issued by visa of course). And it does this through a connector on the edge that has a male on left female on right jack so you can just hook two cards together, or jack your card into your bank to get more cash. Doesn't this make a bit more sense. You can have cards that only carry a certain amount for petty cash.
Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
"Hey, you wanna go grab a drink after work?"
"Can't, I'm broke."
"What? You've been working all this overtime, how can you be broke?"
"Oh, no, I mean I'm 'BROKE'. I degaussed my monitor this morning and my RFID overloaded."
"Man, I hate having to get surgery everytime that happens, I wish they'd just invent some kind of card we could carry around."
"Yeah, me too, either that or maybe little pieces of paper we could carry around saying we have so much credit. We could then just barter with the pieces of paper."
"You mean make money out of paper?"
"Yeah. Exactly."
"Weird."
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.