Implanted RFID Tag To Replace Cash?

Kulic writes "Wired is running a story about using subdermal RFID microchips to pay for goods. Applied Digital Solutions are marketing the VeriChip as the world's only implantable ID technology. CEO Scott Silverman says they could someday replace credit cards, but a final product is a few years away. They are also receiving condemnation from some fundamentalist Christians who believe that this is the fabled 'mark of the beast' of biblical lore." waytoomuchcoffee adds a link to a similar story at CNet.

Comments

No it will not

[jackb_guppy]

There is not any advanage to this unless you also believe that Home Land Secuirty is good for the country.

Re:No it will not

[Catbeller]

And I doubt Herr PolitzenFueher Ashcroft will have any chips planted in his body that the the Fatherland Security Department will find trackable. Nor his financial or demographic records. The Fatherland Security Act deems dissemination of such information, such as addresses or social security numbers of the Reich leaders as de facto terrorism with all the throw-your-ass-in-a-torture-chamber non-prison laws applying.

I'm not exagerating. Remember about a month ago when some people started skywriting personal information about (Ashcroft?)to prove a point about privacy? They couldn't give a whole number because that would have violated the Fatherland Security Act and they would have been yanked from public life for thirty years.

This is not funny.

Re:No it will not

[thebruce]

Given so many people seem to be against this, as it stands right now it's still very far off...

now if you believe the biblical account of the mark of the beast, according to the biblical account it's not a matter of choice that these are implemented. It won't be a "oh this is cool, I should get this" choice that people make. biblically it's the antichrist that requires people to get this. As you said (food for thought) what if everyone eventually believes that Home Land Security (in whatever form it may be in the future) IS essential? What if the leader at that time is 'forced' to make a decision, maybe due to continued terrorist threats or disasters, that homeland security must be increased to a mandatory advanced tracking system? What if something happens that eventually causes the masses to value this highly advanced tracking system for all citizens so only citizens have 'freedom' within the country?

if you think about it, right now the chances of something like this being implemented on a wide scale are practically nil. Combine it with imminent threat, so it becomes the 'best choice' amidst other undesirable choices or risks, and it's got a good possibility...

just food for thought... I'm not a conspiracy theorist :)

Re:No it will not

[blackbear]

I think people should stop personalizing this to John Ashcroft. It's not just him, or this administration. It's our entire corrupt government. Get rid of Ashcroft and they replace him with an idealogical clone. Elect a Democrat president and they replace him with an Democrat idealogical clone.

As long as we continue to allow our government to swill from the keg-o-power, it will continue to encroach on freedom and maintain a life of its own. This is historically axiomatic. America will eventually become tyranical if the people don't act to stop it before they loose that power completly.

It's no accident (though perhaps coincidence) that someone is developing a way to use RFIDs for commerce. It is money that is the source of all governmental power. When someone takes your money and gives nothing, they are taking away the time you spent earning it. Money is very much more important than people seem to understand, and in a society that is wealthy enough that even the poorest often have enough to buy luxuries, few seem to understand that taking it from you is not diferent than going into your pantry and taking the food from your shelves, or taking the tools from your shed, workbench, or desk.

Why not retina scans

[upside]

How is this better than biometrics?

Re:Why not retina scans

[Anonymous Coward]

If the chip gets compromised you can replace it. You can't do that with biometrics.

Re:Why not retina scans

[Deathlizard]

Outside of being able to use it via proxy, For Example, you stand in front of a vending machine, press a button and the pop comes out instead of having to look in or touch something, there is no real advantage.

In fact its less secure that biometrics. It can be scanned for it's ID and then retransmitted, it can be stolen,(OW!) and if your account is compromised, time to call the doctor.

Re:Why not retina scans

[aheath]

An implanted RFID chip is not better than biometrics. It is an alternative to biometrics that has some of the same security concerns as biometrics. There is no reason why a determined thief would prefer to remove an implanted RFID chip instead of removing an eyeball, a finger or a hand.

I think that any biometric or RFID authentication technology should be combined with a PIN. It's just common sense to combine a secuity token that you posses with a PIN that you must memorize. This doesn't lead to perfect security, but it wraps the physical posession of an authentication token in another layer of security.

The best argument that I can see for requiring a PIN is the ability to assign a "duress PIN" to users. A duress pin enables the security token holder to signal their distress when they are being forced to use their PIN under duress. For example, if someone held up at gunpoint and forced to use an ATM, they can enter the duress PIN. Use of the duress pin would signal the bank to notify the authorities that a robbery is in progress at a particular location. In a computer security environment, a duress PIN could be used to provide access to a honeypot network instead of the production network.

Re:Why not retina scans

[Fembot]

What about people who have more than one credit/debit card?? Will that become an impossible thing of the past?

Re:Why not retina scans

[mr100percent]

Yeah, but biometrics are harder to forge, so you wouldn't need to replace it.

Re:Why not retina scans

[arivanov]

So now instead of handing a bloke with a gun my wallet I will have to hand in my hand to be cut off. No, thanks. Not smoking that one.

Re:Why not retina scans

[tommck]

There is no reason why a determined thief would prefer to remove an implanted RFID chip instead of removing an eyeball, a finger or a hand.

Well, actually, many of the biometric devices out there can detect that a finger or hand or eyeball was removed from the body or is not alive. Many work on pulse detection, amongst other things.
So, biometrics is more secure than a chip, unless it's got a blood pressure monitor built in or something.

T

Re:Why not retina scans

[I8TheWorm]

I'm not trying to be a karma whore here, but wouldn't it be a fairly silly idea to try to rob a place where self defense and hand/foot to head combat is taught?

To me that sounds like trying to break into a prison.

Re:Why not retina scans

[kill -9 $$]

I knew somebody had to bring this up. Somebody should mod the parent up.

This was my exact thoughts. Its one track thinking, "well now they can't take your credit cards and or money because there's no money to take because of the chip". At that point (chip == money/credit cards). Have the chip, or the value stored on the chip, you effectively have the money. And if I were a robber, I'm going to take the smash (or slice in this case) and grab approach and worry about deciphering/using the chip later.

An to those who say, well the chip might have smarts to not work in a dead hand and/or you can report it as stolen, I'll still lose my hand, because many criminals are dumb and wouldn't understand that concept until after my hand is missing.

Re:Why not retina scans

[ckaminski]

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!?!??!

When it's so much easier to just walk past 10,000 people with a RFID reader, steal 10,000 accounts, run them all through crack, and end up with some good accounts?

Because you KNOW there are morons out there who use 1111, 1234 or 5555 as PIN numbers.

And you don't have to worry about washing the blood out...

Re:Why not retina scans

[Lord Kano]

I'm not trying to be a karma whore here, but wouldn't it be a fairly silly idea to try to rob a place where self defense and hand/foot to head combat is taught?

When I was a kid, our karate instructor had one of his assistants dress up like a 1970's TV burglar and sneak into the backdoor. We had no idea who it was, but when he told us to "get him" we did.

At the end of the day, I had to apologize to Mr. Castro for kicking him in the nuts, twice. Believe me, I did it as hard as I could.

LK

You Could Make It Fun..

[AnswerIs42]

Have them implant the chip in your middle finger.

You can flip people off and then say, "No, I wasn't giving you the bird, I was buying a Coke."

Speedpass

[rhs98]

Its kinda like the card in HongKong called octopus - http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/train/octopus.html Which is used on the MTR and in shops and busses. Its great and a neat idea - you just wave your walet over the reader and thats it.

Mark of the Beast ?

[ultranova]

It does certainly bear similarities to said mark... I seem to recall that one had to had the mark to be able to buy goods.

Anyway, whether it's the mark of the beast or not, I'm not going to put such a chip on my body.

Re:Mark of the Beast ?

[leerpm]

I'm not sure everyone in the thread is going to get this joke. I believe the author is refering to the former German currency, called the mark. Though it has since been replaced by the Euro.

Re:Mark of the Beast ?

[HorrorIsland]

Actually, the joke's on you. Revelations 13, verses 16 and 17 say...

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Of course, it goes on from there. Now at least you know...

Re:Mark of the Beast ?

[BeatlesForum.com]

The number of his name - that's your credit card number, above your name, right? The "name of the beast" - some formm of recognised ID with a corporate/government name on it? Sorry, fundies, you're too late - its already happened. Any attempt at a cashless society would appear to trigger this verse.

The Bible continues to say that the number of his (the anti-Christ) name is 666. I don't think it's the credit card number above your name.

So fundamentalists should abhor all banking and inist on cash transactions only (which avoids the usury the bible goes on about as well). In fact, notes have serial numbers and the "name of the beast" - the government - on them. So coins only. Cpuld make life difficult in this modern world.

Those who accept the mark will KNOWINGLY be pledging allegiance to the anti-Christ. I personally have nothing against technological advances. Believe me, though: no one will be fooled into taking the mark. All who take it will know to whom their allegiance lies.

which avoids the usury the bible goes on about as well

There's no point to forcing a cash-only society. The future has already been written. It's just a matter of time before it comes to pass.

Re:Mark of the Beast ?

[BeatlesForum.com]

Has a single prediction fortold in either that or the bible come true yet? Actually, the Bible foretold of the coming of the Savior in the Old Testament. The Savior did arrive in the form of Jesus Christ. Hence, we have the new testament.

The Bible foretold of the flood. It happened and Noah and his family were saved to repopulate the world.

The Bible foretold of the resurrection of Christ after three days. This, too, came to pass.

Nostradamus was a false prophet as is anyone who makes a prediction that does not come to pass.

Re:Mark of the Beast ?

[tgv]

How did this get a +2 score? The savior never arrived, I'm sorry to tell you. And the flood never happened. And it wasn't foretold neither; it was history by the time the bible was written. And about the resurrection? Appealing and powerful tale, but as true as the rest of the bible.

Re:Mark of the Beast ?

[u-235-sentinel]

I don't blame you. Personally why would anyone have surgery if they didn't need it? Sure, liposuction and plastic surgery but this? I had surgery years ago to remove a growth and it was VERY unpleasant.

"Applied Digital officials say such concern is unfounded because people are chipped voluntarily."

Not to troll here but think about it. Today it's valuntary but what about tomorrow? As with most things in the Government we find that temporary things become permanent. I wouldn't be surprised if this became a requirement in the future.

Re:Mark of the Beast ?

[Schemat1c]

I found this on the Usenet a few years ago but I just love it and it applies so well to this idiot.
--

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your site, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind then that Leviticus 18:22 clearly stated it to be an abomination to the Lord.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how best to follow them.

A) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours: they claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

B) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 2:17. In this day and age, what do you think a fair price for her would be?

C) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness. (Lev. 15:19-24) The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

D) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

E) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

F) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

G) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of the Lord if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20 or is there some wiggle room here?

H) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean. May I still play football if I wear gloves?

J) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread. (It looks like some sort of cotton/poly blend.)

He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev 20:14.)

I know that you have studied these things extensively, so I'm confident that

you can help. Thanks.

I have a bad feeling about this

[billmaly]

Gut reaction here says that someone, somewhere, would setup some means of remotely reading an RFID tag, hacking whatever PW/encryption is on it, and draining bank accounts. I could see it for small transactions, tolls, fast food, gas, etc. but would be leary about this sort of thing for all financial transactions.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[garcia]

now, I am going to steer clear of any sort of discussion regarding my absolute hatred of RFIDs and their privacy implications.

That said... What stops people now from rummaging through your garbage, finding your bank statements, and draining your bank accounts?

Who needs to hack any sort of PW/encryption to do it now?

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[robslimo]

What stops people now from rummaging through your garbage, finding your bank statements, and draining your bank accounts?

My paper shredder, that's what. Confetti type; cuts vertically and horizontally. Don't take your trash to the curb without using one first.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Doctor7]

What stops people now from rummaging through your garbage, finding your bank statements, and draining your bank accounts?

I don't know what kind of information is on your bank statement, but mine and every one I've seen only have enough information to allow you to deposit into the account, not withdraw. Some hacking or social engineering would still be required to get to the point of being able to drain the account.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[drooling-dog]

If all that would be required to debit these things is proximity to a receiver - pretty much necessary if they're to be used in the manner described - where is the security? Could someone just carry a receiver through a crowd, charging $1 from everyone who passes within a meter or so? I'll have to get me one of those!

Nope.

[Saint Mitchell]

It'll not happen in the US. Waaaaaaaay too many fundamentalist Christians about. I agree with them on this one, not because it's the mark of the beast, but because I don't like the idea of something in my body being money. I still like the cred' stick idea from Shardowrun. Anonymous, secure and very convenient. Near impossible to counterfeit and no money to print.

Re:Nope.

[squiggleslash]

You know, I think this is the first time I've ever been glad that America is over-run by fundamentalist Christians...

Re:Nope.

[OccSub]

Yeah, I see another poster kind of beat me to it, but the fundies are way off. If Christ is coming again, then why do they want to stop prophecy from being fulfilled? I guess they just aren't ready. "Lord, I am so close to getting that 40 ft yacht, and I want to make sure my kids have a sprawling family estate to inherit... that's it! In your holy wisdom, please hold off until I'm done being a greedy fundie bastard." P.S. I have a few of these little bastards (chips) right here right now :) They're not so scary, actually. They're about the size of a big grain of rice.

Re:Nope.

[LittleGuy]

I agree with them on this one, not because it's the mark of the beast, but because I don't like the idea of something in my body being money.

Aside from the quarter shoved up the nose on a double-dog dare when we were kids.

Re:Nope.

[cavemanf16]

LOL. Well, I may consider myself a "fundamentalist" Christian simply because I do believe Christ will come again, is the Son of God, etc. etc; however the point you make is spot on for unfortunately too many of the "Christians" in America. I put the word in quotes because quite often the soccer moms who claim to be good little church-goers really don't practice what they preach anyways, and I probably wouldn't agree with them on the fundamentals of being a Christian anyways.

So anyways, what I'm saying is that if you people have studied the Bible at all, you may have noticed that it's not really the "technology" that has anything to do with Christ's return. Ultimately, it's the anti-Christ's requiremments that every single person in the world is forced to take the mark of the Beast on the hand and on the forehead. Whether that's a tatoo, RFID tag, or WHATEVER, it doesn't matter. The Bible states no one except God the Father knows when Jesus Christ will return, and hence it's really pointless of the "fundies" you referred to, to worry much about this RFID tag stuff. I claim to be a Christian, and I'd use the RFID chip in a smart media card as my "new cash." What a great technology! God gave us brains, let's use 'em! Just as long as some dictator and/or leader isn't requiring me to put one on my hand and forehead to proclaim his greatness (basically).

I don't have all the answers of course, I'm only human. But just know that not all true "fundamentalist" Christians deplore the idea behind this RFID tech, just maybe the uses possible. Kinda like any tech. Guns are realtively "new" technologies, and yet they can be used for both good and evil. All depends on the motives behind the use of the tech, not just the tech itself.

1st Generation Device

[LiquidCoooled]

These devices used to be so big even goatse had trouble implanting one!

Religion

[Psiren]

Why is it that religion really brings out the nutcases. I hope that I can get one, just so I can wind the poor confused bastards up. What better way to spend a Saturday afternoon? ;)

Re:Religion

[Mark Bainter]

Why is it that religion really brings out the nutcases.

I really don't think that's the case. I mean, think about it, religous or not the "masses" are poorly educated, and we boggle at the conclusions they come to on a regular basis. I mean, look how many continue to support Bush's war. Look at the support for the drug war. The number of people who buy products from spam.

The problem isn't religion. It's that the majority of the population seems to lack critical thinking skills in sufficient measure. Anyone with real time and study invested in what they believe would know better than to claim this is the mark of the beast. Being able to buy an sell goods is *not* sufficient. Neither is it being implanted. The point of the mark is to signifiy your allegience to the "beast". The means he will employ to get you to do so is to ban you from buying and selling goods unless you have it.

Given all of biblical history, why would anyone with decent critical thinking skills believe that God would suddenly, at the end of history, change his (unchangeable) personality and try to trick people into accepting the mark?

Meanwhile, there are perfectly good and valid reasons to NOT take this chip, that they should be focusing on, along with the rest of the population. Like the issue of the potential for the government to track you regardless of whether you're purchasing anything or not. Or heck, for that matter, for /anyone/ to track you. Granted, it's short range, but anyone with a decent receiver and antenna could at least tail you easily.

Aside from that, you have the issues of security. If it's implanted, that means all administration, and transactions work wirelessly. So that means anyone with the skills to hack it can also do them w/out having to be in physical contact with the device. Scary.

So I don't think it's "religion" that brings out the nuts. I think people without the ability to manage critical thinking are generally out there, just that different issues bring out different groups of them. Every group has them, and as large a group as "Christians" is will have a lot of them. Heck, we see it here on this board within our *own* group. It's just a reality of the level of education our public schools provide. Some people are able ot rise above that and educate themselves sufficiently to reason effectively, but many people are not, or at least they don't choose to.

Re:Religion

[j3110]

Any being that resorts to torture because his creation doesn't do what he wants is not devine nor perfect. Infact, it's very childish. I don't set my computer ablaze because my program has a bug. I don't insist that the program corrupted itself because I gave it the ability to be corrupt. And lastly, I don't claim to love anything then torture it when it doesn't love me back. I think I'm a better person than the Christian god, because I don't have to inflict my will on any other being. Even if Christianity is right, I don't want to have any part of that kind of "love". If a god wants me to believe or love him, giving me a book full of threats and contradiction is not a step in the right direction.

So... to answer your question, just about anyone that believes in that kind of thing has to be nutcase to begin with. Rational, logical thought is at odds with the popular definition of faith (unfounded belief). Rational people don't believe in the tooth fairy. Most rational people will say there is no convincing evidence yet that there is or is not a creator.

Most rational people wouldn't fight this if it was:
Secure (More like smart cards)
Anonymous (Vendor makes a transaction, Bank/Credit company signs transaction, you sign the signed transaction that the Bank/Credit company gives you the key for that Bank/Credit company... Must be several credit companies and banks so you can pick the ones you trust and assign them the keys you want.)
Safe (Has this kind of thing been tested?)
Convenient (I don't have to sleep with my hand on a magnetic pad to charge it do I?)
Controlled (I should be able to control every aspect of the device... even turning it on and off. I don't want the government, enemies, or criminals using it to track me, but medical personell and family should be able to.)

This device is far, far from optimal. I don't even know if it's possible to make a smart enough device that I could trust. There would definately have to multiple vendors of said chip. In fact, I probably wouldn't trust it unless the spec was public and I could build my own.

That said, it holds a lot of promise. I would make mine determine blood alcohol level and keep me from starting my car. Of course my car would only start for me, and I wouldn't need a key for anything. I would store my diary on it, encrypted of course. I would put a buz function in it to alert me of my meetings. I would probably actually put it near my ear, so it could actually deliver voice. I would use it to sign email. I would have the possiblity of having multiple identities on my same chip. I would try to get enough storage for audio books for long flights, and even some porn! It should be able to pick up my voice, so it should be able to be used as a cell phone with some of those inexpensive, small, voice recognition chips they put in cell phones. (I like cancer!... actually you would probably install a lot of it on top of your head with some kind of stainless steal shielding.)

The more I think about it, the less I see this as needing to be internal. Why not just have a cell phone like PDA that requires you're thumb print and a password to sign transactions. Sure, it'll be expensive, but not if the government would stop trying to spy on everyone. If the government would stop crashing satelites into the atmosphere, this would probably have been possible with irridium.

Re:Religion

[j3110]

1> According to Christianity, God is perfect. If God were to make the program, it would work the way he wanted to begin with.
2> Assuming that God, like I, am not perfect, finding where one went wrong would be the first question. You don't blame the program for being faulty if you are all knowing and all powerful. You fix the problem. Fixing the problem surely isn't beyond God's power, is it?
3> Are you completely out of your head? Believing that the current physical properties to continue is not on the level of faith. Through out all recorded history, we have never seen pigs fly. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that pigs will never fly. Through out all recorded history (and most importantly my life) we have never seen a god. The only evidence you can dig up is a very very old book... and no two religions agree on very much at all. In fact, they disagree so much they shoot, kill, and terrorism each other and every one else.

4> Actually it is quite easy. I've seen it done with a toaster oven. You take standard chips like a PIC, ATMEL, etc. and you solder components on them... voila, you have a circuit. They even make these handy testing tools that clamp onto the very small pins of surface mount chips. Check out some ATMEL prototyping tools. My roomate does that kind of thing all the time. Right now he is hooking atmels up to WinBond voice synthesis and recognition chips... The same kind that come in newer cell phones.

Also, you can get nice software to design circuits and have ASIC chips made to your design. This is how watches are made. Sure it's expensive, but if I'm going to have surgery done for it, I'm not going to be skimping. You can usually get it less expensive if you happen to have a friend at an Electronics Engineering school.

Re:NOT RIGHT

[Channard]

Quiet down, Unit 432101.

Credit Limit

[PowerBert]

I hope I don't go over my credit limit again, I don't want the bayliffs coming around and cutting ou t my credit tag.

And anther thing, how will will I show off my gold chip? Bye bye prestige ;-( Maybe I can get a gold/platinum mark on my forehead????

We're all dooooomed

[kinnell]

But seriously, who is going to want a microchip embedded in their body just for paying for stuff. Apart from the odd wierdo, most people get completely creeped out by this kind of thing. There will not be a market for this, and unless some sinister government thinks for soome reason that it's worth forcing its citizens to use this technology it's just not going to happen, because nobody will use it voluntarily. I'm sure there are serious uses for this kind of technology, but payment systems just aren't one of them.

hmmm... it must be good...

[rokzy]

if the Christian fundamentalists hate it...

Re:hmmm... it must be good...

[rokzy]

Y'ever sat down and read this thing? Technically, we're not allowed to go to the bathroom.

Mark of the SOMEthing...

[ddilling]

I don't know about any "Mark of the Beast" but having a chip that anyone can track, that I can't just set down? Um, yeah. Uncomfortable with that. I think my personal habits are well enough documented by shadowy figures I am unaware of already, thankyouverymuch.

(Yes, Disney, Best Buy, etc. count as shadowy. Don't you agree?)

Been there...

[phillymjs]

...done that.

Lenina Huxley: That is correct, money is out-moded. All transactions are through code.
John Spartan: Alright, so he can't buy food or a place to stay for the night. And, it would be a waste of time to mug somebody. Unless he rips off somebody's hand, and let's hope he doesn't figure that one out.

~Philly

So what would stop...

[Channard]

.. transmitting a false signal and charging the goods to someone else? Or even nastier, finding someone with money to burn, kidnapping and or killing them and removing the chip? There'd have to be some sort of security mechanism for the chip to make sure the user was still alive.

And people actually agreeing to have these things in them? These may work some day, but I can't see them actually being in common use at any point. One to put in the same file as flying cars and pill-food

Religion and Belief

[handy_vandal]

Why is it that religion really brings out the nutcases.

Because religion is about belief; and being a nutcase is about deranged belief.

This is not to say that all religious belief is deranged; far from it. But nutcase belief often has something in common with religion. If I hear voices in my head, is it because of my deranged brain chemistry? Or because God is speaking to me? (Answer: God only knows.)

-kgj

From Revelation Chapter 13:

[GR|MLOCK]

16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18: Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Now why on earth would we worry. Strange that the text actually says in the hand or forehead, not on. I wish I could read the originals as they were written...

Re:From Revelation Chapter 13:

[Chris Burke]

Now why on earth would we worry. Strange that the text actually says in the hand or forehead, not on. I wish I could read the originals as they were written...

I'd say you should definitely refer to the originals (or at least a scholarly analysis thereof) before hinging anything on the semantic difference between "in" and "on".

It's the same problem that has all the Biblical literalists convinced that the earth is 6000 years old and it took exactly six twenty-three-hour-fifty-whatever-minute days to create the universe, because Ancient Hebrew the word for "day" could be translated several ways and somebody picked "day" instead of "era" or "eon".

Not that it matters in this case, because the meaning is clear regardless: Don't let anyone put identifying markers on, in, or up your body because they seek only to own you.

I think that's pretty good advice, no matter how sure you are the guy putting the mark on you isn't the anti-Christ.

Re:From Revelation Chapter 13:

[dr_zeus]

The word in Greek is "epi" (as in epidermis). It is found 896 times in the New Testament, and is translated "on" 196 times, "in" 120 times, "upon" 159 times, and other variations the rest.

Although it is interesting that the translators chose the word "in", it doesn't mean they expected the mark to be within the hand. The intended meaning was probably more like the phrase "holding a cup in my hand."

If the author meant "within the hand", he should have used the Greek word "eso" or "en".

Re:From Revelation Chapter 13:

[malaire]

> Now why on earth would we worry. The reason to worry comes from Revelation, Chapter 14, where it's stated that those who take the "Mark of the Beast" will receive full wrath of God.

"The Beast" opposes God, and everyone who supports he, or his mark, get full wrath of God. - And won't go to Heaven either (this is stated later in Revelation, perhaps not in as simple terms).

New American Standard Version:
Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

NIV - New International Version:
Rev 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,
Rev 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Rev 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

King James Version:
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Lets all jump on the RFID wagon its sooo in

[t_allardyce]

Why does everyone and their dog suddenly think RFID is the new sliced bread? Just because its new and it does something semi cool doesnt mean its suitable for every application. With this for example its totally unsuitable! Not only is your fucking credit card number or its alternative availiable for anyone in range to scan, but now you have a bloody tracking device attached to you hand. Where-ever you go and what ever you do, if your in range of a scanner then someones got you and yes they will pretty quickly tie that innocent number to your name - "hey bob, can you help me with this box" - afew seconds later bob's hand has been scanned from inside the box and his number is sold on the black market tied to his name and address. This is the stupidest thing ive seen in years, at the very least it must be controllable so you can disable it at will.

Implanted RFID chip?...

[N Monkey]

... That'd bring a whole new meaning to "paying an arm and a leg" for something.

Can you imagine being robbed?!!!!

Hmmm...

[salzbrot]

That sounds interesting.

It will probably make shoplifting impossible, combined with RFIDs on the products that could be stolen. The shoplifter sneaks out the store and hears a friendly spoken "Thank you for shopping with K-Mart!" message. D'oh!

I will go now and try to get one of the readers for those implanted RFIDs. Then I will place it on a busy street and bill every person only $9.99 that passes by to close to the reader ;-)

New Meaning

[JackJudge]

I guess it gives new meaning to the phrase, "It cost me an arm and a leg".

The social implications make this non-feasible..

[StressGuy]

This elimiates the anonymous purchase. No more slinking into the adult bookstore for that copy of "Wendy the Whip" Quarterly (or whatever) that is purchased with cash so it doesn't show up on your bank statement for your wife to see.
.
Seriously though, if you have absolute access to how someone spends their money, you essentially know everything about them. It becomes an extreme invasion of privacy making the technological hurdles somewhat minor in comparison to the social and political hurdles.
.
Regarding the mark of the beast; given that this is an implantable device, I can't help but find it interesting that the "number of the beast" is also the Unix mode number for universal device access. Don't know if that means anything, but it is an interesting coincidence.
.

Ridiculous pipe dream..

[k98sven]

Just another example of people who think that just because something is technically possible and perhaps even practical in some cases, that is somehow automatically considered desireable.

Most people don't want this. Not now, probably not ever.

Credit cards have been around a long time too.. now wouldn't it be practical not to have to lug that heavy card around?

Why not have credit card numbers tattooed onto the card holder? That's been technically possible for a long time, and it could also be practical in some cases.

Would anyone suggest this? Why not? Same reasons.

Why? Why??

[Maradine]

Why do fundamentalist Christians have a problem with this? Every time one of the prophetic things come to pass, they're like, "my god, the number of the beast! Satan is among us! You cannot do this!!"

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Know Your Religion! Guess what guys? The New World Order and the anti-christ's coming are a bloody prerequisite for your savior's return. Remember that bible thing?

You guys should be cheering this stuff on.

One very important difference

[Chris Burke]

Right now, if a mugger wants my wallet he can just take it instead of having to carve it out of my body.

It's the same as unremovable transmitter bands for children -- ie a horrible idea. If you're dealing with someone who is willing to kill or maim you to get money, the last thing you want to do is give them a reason to have to do it.

This is common sense.

Yeah yeah yeah...

[Alsee]

I could rant about how stupid these things are, about all the security holes in the system, about all of the abuses, about the violation of rights, and on and on and on. Instead I'd just like to say that if it does somehow get rammed down our throats then I want chip number 666! Thankyou.

-

Christians rejoice! (was: Nope.)

[thule]

I'm a Christian, and I say bring it on! A Christian shouldn't have anything to fear! Any "body mark" that could be a *requirement* for global commerce just means that the Bible's predictions are right and the Christian can rejoice that the end is near. Yay!

Again, why should I be afraid???

Just to be clear though, I'm not saying *I'm* going to *sign-up* for one.

Re:Christians rejoice! (was: Nope.)

[HorrorIsland]

The return of Christ is always to be hoped for, of course. But, if it is the mark, it's still nothing to take lightly, since it means that everyone in the world is running out of time to accept Christ.

It also means at least hardship for those who refuse to take the mark. After all, if it is the mark, it will become required for trade, and those without it will effectively be living in a perfect "trade embargo". No medicine, no food you don't grow yourself (from your own seeds!), no manufactured goods of any kind... it's hard to imagine what kind of life you could support that way. After all,even the Amish buy and sell.

Re:Christians rejoice! (was: Nope.)

[BeatlesForum.com]

And what happened to all the people who died *before* Christ and didn't even know about him? Are they all burning in hell from being born at the wrong time?

Nope.

As you probably know, there is more than one level of Hell. Those that died before the birth of Christ were sent to one level. After the death and resurrection of Christ, He went there to retrieve those sent there and take them to Heaven.

In all honesty, the one thing that many people (including myself at one point in my past) fail to realize is that God doesn't want to punish anyone. It's a choice and time is growing nearer when people have to stop riding the fence. It's a black-and-white decision: accept Christ and have a mansion in Heaven or not. Being a good person/helping the old lady across the street/never killed anyone doesn't cut the mustard. Christianity is not a works-based religion (contrary to the belief of some cultic variations of my religion). It is only by the acceptance of Christ as your savior that salvation is attained.

Re:NOT RIGHT

[Total_Wimp]

More specifically, stop treating us like ATM machines for coporations. What if I don't want to or like to spend money? What if I don't want to give my time (going to work), my dignity (begging for loans), my privacy (everywhere!) and now my very body to make if more convienient for companies to grab my cash.

This proposal is like someone who asks to fuck you before they've bought you flowers or even kissed you. At least have the decensy to lie to us that it's real purpose is "medical information" or "education" before swooping down on our wallets.

TW

Countermeasures

[G4from128k]

Assuming these things are adopted, I see a few countermeasures to avoid being "read" by scammers or govt officials.

1. tin foil armband over the device to block reception/transmission of RFID bits.

2. removable bracelet with multiple dummy chips that confuses scanners with too many hits.

3. Scanner detector device that beeps when an RFID reader is in the neighborhood.

What's Wrong With Cash?

[bfg9000]

I mean, really -- what's wrong with cash? Coins and bills have been around for a long long time, and have worked fine. Why tamper with a system that works? The systems not perfect, but it's not like I'm willing to give up my privacy and get chip implants because I can't sleep at night worrying about counterfeiters.

This is a non-issue, except that some desperate penny stock NEEDS to make it an issue in order to stay alive. I'll stick with cash, thankyouverymuch.

Too early

[confused one]

They're trying this too early. It'll be at least another 75 years before the masses are conditioned to allow tagging.

At least that's what it says on the schedule I've got.

New business plan

[HomerJayS]

1. Make portable RFID scanner
2. Walk down crowded street
3. ???
4. Profit!

Who will give me a new finger?

[Speare]

What encryption? RFID as it stands has no challenge-response, it's just a static barcode readable by radio interference. When my number is stolen, do I get a new government-sponsored surgery to change numbers?

There do exist some points of agreement

[tepples]

it must be good if the Christian fundamentalists hate it

Yes, I know that the median Slashdot user is more much more liberal than the median devout Christian. On the other hand, I've observed that Slashdot users do seem to share quite a few hatreds with devout Christians. For example devout Christians hate murder, and devout Christians hate rape. Devout Christians hate The Walt Disney Company, admittedly for different reasons than Slashdotters do.

Re:There do exist some points of agreement

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

If it said that rape was ok in the bible it would most likely be socially acceptable at this point, as most of our societal rules have some roots in organized religion.

Re:There do exist some points of agreement

[Lonath]

>>For example devout Christians hate murder,

> but didn't have much to say about Hitler did they?

> >and devout Christians hate rape.

>wow, such high principles. doesn't apply to not getting 14 year olds pregnant with the "son of God" though...

You forgot about the

UDAP.

Uniform Distribution of Assholes Principle: Assholes are distributed uniformly throughout the population.

Therefore, given a large enough group, that group will have some assholes. Assholes are generally louder and more obnoxious and try to troll people who aren't part of the group, so you notice them more when you're not in the group. Most fundamentalist Christians are perfectly ok. There are some assholes, simply because there are lots of fundamentalist Christians.

Not understanding the UDAP is the reason why so many people attacked Islam and Muslims in the US after Sept 11. They think that because some Muslims are assholes, all Muslims are assholes. When in reality, it's just that some of the Muslim assholes are now coming after the western world instead of causing trouble at home. It would be like saying that all Americans are evil if people like Timothy McVeigh had gone overseas to attack other countries as private citizens.

The UDAP can also be generalized to the UDFP: Uniform Distribution of Flaws Principle, which states that flaws in the human character are uniformly distributed throughout the population. Therefore, stereotyping works because given the statement "All (Group) are (Flaw)." There will be a member of group Group that has flaw Flaw, and in fact the listener may have observed this on one occasion (since flaws are pretty common. :)) and may be more likely to believe the stereotype.

Re:NOT RIGHT

[azzy]

More like unit 639622

Re:NOT RIGHT

[BorgDrone]

Treating people as humans is exactly the reason why people shouldn't be given names but unique numbers.

There must be lots of people with the name 'jack' or 'leo' or whatever. there will be only ONE person called HUMAN_ID_0532134159123843892341 , that's a name that makes you totally unique.

it's not all doom and gloom... only about 90%

[rah1420]

"time to call the doctor." Come on. They just set up a new translation table. Or you change your PIN.

PIN?

You damn right. It's sheerest folly to think I'm gonna let a vending machine nick me for a pop without entering a PIN. Security is something you possess and something you know. This is breaking the most fundamental (no pun intended) tenets of security based transactions.

Not to mention that I could be persuaded that The End Times Are Near as well, but I don't go into a Frothing Fit every time some invasion of privacy rears its ugly head.

What is the advantage?

[cgenman]

ATM cards require confirmation in order to protect the contents of your bank account from someone who may have stolen or cloned your card. Credit Cards require a signature to ensure accountability and traceability. What do RFID tags do that makes them fundamentally secure?

Nothing, apparently. Not having to type in numbers or sign a receipt are touted as the advantages of the new system. Yet traditional cards could have easily forgone the secondary identification, simply by sacrificing the security we have come to expect.

By the proliferation of universal garage remotes out there, and RFID's lack of a challenge-response system, it's obvious that if you will be able to get within 3 feet of someone you can steal their identity without their knowledge. Without the secondary identification, the system is useless. With secondary identification, it's a credit card.

Furthermore, why implant? Everyone has to have their keys with them at all time... The speedpass route seems like the more intelligent and flexible way to go. Implanting could be convenient once all of the bugs are hammered out and it is accepted as a universal form of payment, but for a 1st generation technology likely to be upgraded quickly, why commit?

This reminds me a lot of the Dot Com days, when people attempted to sell anything that was possible, without even bothering to think if it should be done.

an end run around visa/mastercard?

[*weasel]

honestly this just sounds like an end-run around mastercard/visa's payment monopoly (they were found guilty btw, it's not just an accusation).

if a new company owns an entirely new piece of hardware to facilitate purchases, then businesses must buy a new scanner to read it, and pay for a new service to verify transactions.

and of course this service provider can then parlay this into a new service for medical and financial centers, to ensure patron identity at time of service, and provide an ideal unique identifier for records management.

but that's why this sits opposed to a simple proposal to extend visa/mc by associating their RFID chip and a PIN to your existing credit account. that would doubtlessly be easier, but less profitable.

personally, i dont consider it any sort of an invasion of privacy, because it's an opt-in service. if you don't like it, you don't use it.

though one or two more 'incidents' on US soil, and I can easily see a certain liberty-leeching Ashcroft pushing for an 'update' to the Social Security and National ID Card systems to include this sort of technology.

but it's that kind of app that's an invasion of privacy, not an optional payment system.

another spooky application

[btharris]

since everyone would have a unique number (i assume), it could help identify corpses in a graveyard or morgue, or at the site of some horrible accident where the body is otherwise unidentifiable.

who would hold and control the databases that link these numbers to identities? this is an important question.

i wonder if the numbers would be recycled like social security numbers. i can see websites popping up now that help you locate your numerical RFID relatives. wait, i better patent that now!

Re:People won't adapt it

[AlecC]

Peopke said the same thing about notes when they first came in. "Don't trust them, real money is in coins you can handle, with different real values instead of paper promises".

Paper money (I assume you don't deal entirely in coin) is as virtual as electronic money. The *real* value of a $1 bill is exactly the same as that of a $1000 bill - some reasonable quality paper and a bit of quality printing. Except that if it is a good forgery, it might not have that value. So why are numbers printed on bits of cheap paper more asy to relate to than numbers on a statement (also a bit of cheap paper)?

Re:Why not put the chip in a watch?

[SpaceRook]

Because then someone can steal your watch. Granted, this would actually be better than having someone steal your finger.

Well, yeah. Thieves used to break into cars when the owner wasn't around because the underlying security mechanism was easier to bypass. Now that this isn't the case, the thieves simply wait for the owner to unlock the car and then steal it at gunpoint. Let them take my watch...they can already take my credit card if they really want to (C'mon, do you think the 17-year-old kid behind the register at Target is REALLY paying that much attention to whether the signatures match?)

Re:Not another PIN!

[leonardluen]

so then if i am an intellegent thief i just subtract one from the last digit and i have their real pin number/alarm code!

maybe i should become a thief

Re:Why? Why??

[gillbates]

Actually, we welcome the Return of the King. But we would hate to receive the "mark of the beast" and be denied entrance to the Kingdom.

According to one interpretation of Revelation, when these things occur, though, Christians will be persecuted in a way that will make the Holocaust seem like a fairy tale. Then, after the tribulation, the faithful will join Christ in his Kingdom.

my prediction

[CAIMLAS]

My prediction is that all the fundamentalist Christians that decry this as the mark of the beast will be ignored, mocked, and or maybe even harassed/persecuted for their stance on this (if it ever comes to fruit mainstream).

Then, once it's become the standard for commerce, all trade will be outlawed with anything but these tags. Anyone without one would be a terrorist, right?

And then the government uses the tags and the respective databases and equipment to monitor and track anyone that they deem as 'suspicious'.

I can't believe that people actually see this as being a contrived possibility, considering all the shit that's flying about, and all the freedoms that the government -and- large corporations are trying to take away from Citizens (or are we Consumers?).

Armageddon, Mark of the Beast/666 or not, this is a Bad Thing. This falls under the blanket of the philosophy that any sacrifice of freedom for safety (or convenience) will rightly result in the deprivation of those freedoms from those that do not care enough to defend them.

Re:NOT RIGHT

[Jaysyn]

Just like everyone else!

Jaysyn

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Worthy of non-biblical condemnation

[GoofyBoy]

If I had mod points....

Credit cards and Social Security numbers are one thing but tagging someone like this just goes way too far from losing individual independence and freedom.

can of chips, bag of worms

[ThosLives]

Where to begin on this one? Of course people are going to start spouting religious issues with something of this nature. Of course the average joe is going to be like, "uhh... what?" Of course some people are going to be like, "cool! I always lose my change anyway - I doubt I can lose my (body part)." There are so many really large issues with this, so many emotionally charged issues, that we should really step back and figure out what's going on.

First we must ask ourselves why people are even considering such technology? Is it convenience? Is it something else? The proponents of this technology tout things like security and convenience. The security is for those who want power - they want a way to know where the people who can threaten them are. I'm not talking about with weapons, either - I'm talking about with power, with ability. They attempt to get more mechanisms of control into society oh so subtly by making it "convenient" to do things. Think about this though - is it really faster to pay by credit card like the commercials say? They always say you need ID for checks, but I would hope to goodness they check ID with credit cards as well! So personally I think the convenience and security aspect is a farce.

The most secure financial situation, oddly enough, is a physical one - where there is actually hard currency. The reason? You actually have to posess the currency to use it. It's a whole lot more difficult to rob a safe than it is to tell a computer to move some numbers around (part of this difficulty is psychological - the rest is physical. You actually have to go somewhere and transport the currency. You have to get it, have something in which to carry it, and you have to get it to where you want it. Vastly different than computer crime - sit in a remote location, no immediate threats...you see what I'm saying, right?). Sure, with cash, you might get mugged. And if you're obscenely wealthy, you need a good place to store your cash. I think the financial gurus overlook the fact that posession is the most enforcable type of security (assuming, of course, you have a big enough stick to fend off any would-be theives).

I think the concept of sticking something unnatural in my body just to participate in commerce is fundamentally wrong, independent of my religious beliefs. Rather than just complain about this, here are some reasons:

It is segregatory: it automatically divides a population into the "priviledged" and "non-priviledge", the group who "works in the system" and those who "go against it", etc. etc. It's not like humanity needs any more reasons to focus on differences between people.

It is a "rite of passage". It may be arguable that "commerce" is an inherent right of people - if you're born, you have the ability to contribute to society and probably will get the resources and toys you want in exchange for that ability. Requiring some "entry" into this arrangement (either chip, or other form of ID) can only serve to cause more social rifts. Think about the present taboo of "illegitimate children" and how this will be exacerbated by "hey you don't have an ID chip! Why not!?!"

It objectifies people. One major problem I see today is that people forget that relationships are more important than things. The general population today is more and more selfish (I've mentioned this before) - look at all the "it's not my fault, it's theirs!" lawsuits. Look at how everyone is basically saying "let me do my thing how I want - but I'm going to tell you you can't do things how you want". When people are simply consumers and potential threats and all that jazz, we take something away from humanity.

I guess to summarize, and before I get much more too wordy with this, it seems that this is another example of being able to do something and not considering if it should be done. There are far more implications than mere ones of faith, though those may not be least important.

Somehow I feel as if all my deliberations on this have been random thinking, and I almost h

Re:NOT RIGHT

[cayenne8]

Ok...lets all take the 'Non-Conformist Oath'!!

Repeat after me:

I promise to be different.....

I promise to be unique........

I promise NOT to repeat things other people say...

Good!

With apologies to Steve Martin...

Like on my forearm?

[beorach]

I'm sure someone already mentioned this... and the Fatherland Security post was getting there... but isn't everyone reminded of the Holocaust? I think I will steer clear of any identification implanted in my skin - be it a tattoo or a RFID.

Re:NOT RIGHT

[monkeyfinger]

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.

Imagine the convenience ...

[jc42]

What I imagine is a new "customer convenience" feature: To buy something, all you have to do is pick it up and walk out of the store. The RFID sensors would identify you and the things you're buying, and automatically charge your account.

At least that's what the advertising would tell you.

What would also happen is that the RFID sensors would also identify the articles of clothing that you're wearing from their embedded chips, and would charge you for those, too. And every time you went out of that store, you'd be charged again for everything you're wearing.

After a while, of course, customers would wise up to this and raise a stink. So the stores would fix the bug. They'd only pick one or two such items, and only when you're carrying a lot of new purchases. That way, you probably wouldn't notice the extra charges, unless you were really a stickler for checking every purchase. And even then, you'd face taking off a day of work and trying to prove to them that they'd included an extra charge.

And if you tried to pay for something with cash, you might find yourself also being charged via the RFID. This has a precedent here in Massachusetts. The local toll roads have a "Fast Lane" electronic toll collection scheme. Usually it works well. But something that some people have found: In heavy traffic, sometimes you can't reach the Fast-Lane tollbooth. If you decide to go through a cash-only booth, there's a good chance that the sensors will detect your car and charge your account in addition. Sure, you can challenge it, and you'll probably win easily. But you'll have to take at least one day off work, and that's a steep price to pay to get maybe a $1 refund.

Re:Why? Why??

[Chris Burke]

Hey there! Welcome to "You Don't Know My Religion"!

The prophecy of Revelations is what will happen, not what has to happen first.

In other words -- the End Times don't occur just because some people decided to try to make it occur. They may do a pretty damn good job of recreating the living hell that is described in Revelations, but that doesn't make it Revelations.

I could go out today and "convince" everyone on earth to wear my "Mark of the Burke" (slogan: "Easier than cash; better than being shot!"). That doesn't make me the anti-Christ, and wouldn't put Christ's return a day sooner. Even a pet genetically-engineered seven-headed giant monitor lizard (who I'd call "Gnashy") wouldn't qualify me.

Unless of course I -am- the anti-Christ. I'm pretty sure I'm not. I'm certainly not going to go make peoples' lives miserable on the off-chance that I am.

Another way to look at is this: Revelations describes some of the worst human suffering imagineable. World War II involved some of the worst human suffering imagineable, but it wasn't the war of Revelations. If World War III occurs, it may or may not be the war of Revelations as well, but it will still be an unimagineable human disaster.

I know you were being facitious, but you also are saying "Know Your Religion" when you are the one who is less informed.

Although there are people who think exactly what you're saying and they claim to have read the Bible. Apparently they missed the part, which I thought was pretty clear, when it is said that you won't know when the end times are here.

So advocating, allowing, or heaven forbid causing human suffering in the hopes of seeing Jesus return is really, really stupid.

Re:some other ways to wind up religious nut cases.

[Psiren]

Wow, some neat ideas there. I especially like the first one. I'm not sure if you're offended, or just think I'm an arse. I don't really care either way to be honest. I believe that religion is a fundamentally flawed concept, and in general a bad idea best forgotten. Therefore I reserve the right to make fun of those who practice it. Note that I fully accept the right for people to believe what they wish, and have no intentions of malice. If they in turn wish to point and laugh at me for being a total nerd, then I have no problem with that.

I have no intention of ever having kids, so your final point is moot. But nice attempt at offence nonetheless :)

Re:Why? Why??

[TheLink]

Unless you think you're being funny mentioning "_bloody_ prerequisite" you obviously need to read the Bible a bit more with less biased eyes, sure the the returning of the Savior is a good thing. But the coming of the Antichrist is not. There are lots of other bad things that will happen around then too.

Why don't you go ask a mother-to-be if she's worried about labour pains (even if everyone knows it's going to go well in the end), I mean she should be cheering the birth of her baby right?

I won't be very happy the day the Beast or his minions revoke my smartcard's digital cert just because I decided the new "EULA" just wasn't agreeable to me[1].

Within 30 days (or certificate revocation list update period), my identity certificate then becomes invalid, can't buy, can't sell, can't travel.

As for people talking about "why not biometrics". They're ignorant. YOUR biometrics will be included in YOUR certs, so it will be easy to validate that a certificate belongs to a person and wasn't "ripped off" from another. e.g. if the certificate is valid, but the included photo, iriscan, fingerprints don't match, it's been ripped off from someone else.

Oh yeah cheer this stuff on. Lots of us in the tech industry are sure speeding it along. But you got to give credit to the guys making stuff like DMCA, Patriot Act and so on too.

And the malware writers, hackers and spammers are sure helping too - "We" "need" a Global Gov, Court and Legal system to handle cross border problems like this and inconvenient nations who refuse to kowtow - (freedom fries are a beginning symptom). Centralisation + Globalisation of everything. Single point of failure.

I'm not saying it'll all happen the way I mentioned - I'm no prophet. But it sure looks possible soon.

Not even sure I should be writing all this here, but it should be pretty obvious to those who are preparing the Beast's throne anyway.

You want to cheer this stuff on go ahead. Remember though, if you're not careful you might even be cheering the wrong stuff on too when the day comes. Maybe with a fake smile on your face just in case the Beast notices. Maybe you'd have to do what a German guy did and carry large parcels under both arms all the time so as not to have to salute. Not sure if that saved anyone's lives (other than his), but it's hard to fault him.

"Know Your Religion"? Well what do you really believe? Sure lots of fundies are pretty stupid, but Christianity is not just for the totally stupid. e.g. I'm only stupid most times and not all the time.

[1] Naturally the Govs will say only the "Bad People/Terrorists" won't agree to the "EULA". The real security people know what a lie that is. But hey didn't a bunch of people try to introduce IDs after 9/11, despite the hijackers having valid IDs? Eventually enough people will believe or allow them to do it.

Re:NOT RIGHT

[seraph93]

Haven't you heard? Taking money from us isn't a *privilege* the corporations have, it's a *right.* Supporting them with your money isn't your choice, it's your duty. If you don't like it, too bad. They have enough resources to buy whatever legislation it takes to get you to comply.

This proposal is like someone who asks to fuck you before they've bought you flowers or even kissed you.

No it isn't. When someone asks for a quickie, you can say no. You don't have an option here. You're a consumer, not a citizen. You're a source of revenue, not a human being. So bend over already! And don't forget to buy some flowers this time.

Privicy Issues are Not Limited to Your Purchases

[ahodgkinson]

With an embedded RFID chip you would not only leave records of what you purchased, but also where you have been. What's to prevent the collection of individual RFID numbers by installing of RFID readers in every office doorway, lamp post, parking meeter, etc.? They obviously wouldn't debit your account, but they could passivly forward the time and your ID code to some secret location when you walk by.

In fact they already have devices that do this, but they are not (yet) implanted. They are called ankle transponders and have been used as an alternative to prison. Have a look at this or this article.

Worse, in the near future, you probably won't even be able to hide your cash transactions. RFID tags embedded in bank notes are on their way. The EE Times reports that in Europe it's planned for 2005.

Oh, but how will they know who I am when I spend tagged cash? It's pretty simple, by one of the following methods:

• You took the money out of an ATM and the ID numbers were logged with your name during the withdrawl.
• You had your mobile phone with you, which pings the local cell.
• Got the money from someone else, but it's detected because (the currently faulty) facial recognition software attatched to the video camera in the shop (or streetcorner) where you made the purchase.
• The passivly track cash moving through the city, just like they track the people.

If you want a quick overview of where we're headed with RFID have a look at this article.

Technology is amazing, and the current convergence of computing power, large databases and tiny radio transponders even more amazing. I don't know about you, but I also find it pretty scary.

Re:Heh heh heh...

[carlos_benj]

I even recall a well-known senator once saying, in stark contrast to your own post, "I am... A MACHINE."

I thought that was the governor of California....

Re:NOT RIGHT

[Directrix1]

I can't wait to go wardriving for people's personal account info. Fun! Also, I can't wait for the future where when I get robbed, instead of just losing petty cash, I lose my entire account and I get my hand chopped off too. Even more fun.

But seriously though, why don't we all just have credit card size cards that require a pin to use, and instead of giving out an account number to sellers. It gives out a RSA signed transaction using the card's private key, and public x509 cert (issued by visa of course). And it does this through a connector on the edge that has a male on left female on right jack so you can just hook two cards together, or jack your card into your bank to get more cash. Doesn't this make a bit more sense. You can have cards that only carry a certain amount for petty cash.

Re:Not another PIN!

[Saeger]

INCONCEIVABLE!

--

"Stop off for a drink..."

[Jace of Fuse!]

"Hey, you wanna go grab a drink after work?"

"Can't, I'm broke."

"What? You've been working all this overtime, how can you be broke?"

"Oh, no, I mean I'm 'BROKE'. I degaussed my monitor this morning and my RFID overloaded."

"Man, I hate having to get surgery everytime that happens, I wish they'd just invent some kind of card we could carry around."

"Yeah, me too, either that or maybe little pieces of paper we could carry around saying we have so much credit. We could then just barter with the pieces of paper."

"You mean make money out of paper?"

"Yeah. Exactly."

"Weird."